## The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Discussions on the nature of being, existence, reality and knowledge. What is? How do we know?

### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Hi all,

If we limit some terms in a Set describing Existence and set all to Zero then:
Size or Distance = 0
Time or Sequence = 0
Dimensions = 0
Matter or Energy = 0
Thus a Null Set described as above is... "Nothing".

Funny thing about "Nothing" is that it is the only condition that requires no Explanation.

It is Natural (requires no explanation).

As soon as one changes any value above to Non-Zero, we must ask why? What pushed it to be Non-Zero with Nothing that can push or create or cause such an Event or Change. The Absolute (zero size) Void is Eternal, excusing a Temporal Term applied to a place where Time doesn't exist.

Funny that the only place that Can Exist.. has all Terms, or Measures of Existence, set to Zero.

So if this absolute zero Nothing is the only Existence that can Exist.. where did everything come from that we see around us?

The answer of course is Math and Logic because Math and Logic require none of the values we define as zero. Any Math-Logic problem that has a Solution would Exist within this Absolute Void.

Of course one might suggest adding another term above as: Truth (Math and Logic) = 0. But that would be senseless, as Truth has no Physical Aspects.

Some Math-Logic Sets describe a Virtual Reality that contain Non-Zero values for the attributes listed above. Thus those Virtual (mathematical) Realities would still Exist in such an Absolute Void. In fact, there would be an infinite number of them.. as there is no limit on the permutations of mixing Math or Logic expressions.

Thus Pi or Fractals or Virtual Realities (etc) would still have definition in an Absolute Void.

Each Rule Set would define a different result for Sets that have different Rules. In other words.. the entire embodiment of Math and Logic would still exist within that Absolute Void. Some Math-Logic Sets describe Virtual Realities of which some Sets have self contained Observers.

What would it be like to be an Observer in such a Mathematical Virtual Reality Set?

Just take a look around yourself.. this is exactly what it would be like.

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Dave :^)

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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Dave,

"Nothing", or again, no possible existence of any kind existing, cannot exist naturally in and of itself in any possible state or condition: Again, no possible existence of any kind could ever exist to exist.

Even in mathematics, the nothing existing, or complete absence of any quantity existing, has no natural or objective existence independent of the mathematical observation.
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

And Dave,

A "Void" is completely empty space : An Absolute (zero size) Void cannot exist in the real world, because a theoretically (zero size) also equals no existing presence or existing being existing spatially anywhere.

Someone thinking "outside the box" is one thing Dave, someone completely ignoring "the box" is taking this to a completely different and very dangerous level if you want all your hard work to be successful in the end.
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

There was a discussion very relevant to this topic in 2012 I recall, I believe that my opinion seems to be a bit similar to ronjanec.

Don Juan » April 5th, 2012, 10:20 pm wrote:
Nothing-ness does not absolutely suggest a lack of thing but it is always a result of a comparison. Nothing is still a pattern, that is, we experienced a pattern in this universe and we called it “nothing”. If you are referring to nothing as a lack of thing absolutely, then that proposition is more of an idealization, an abstraction removed from context. We can speak of nothing by describing or thinking about context and then noticing what is not in it or collapsing the context altogether in which case the only one left is the conscious experiencer. If the experiencer too is eliminated, then it is not called nothing anymore, but it cannot be known. If nothing is non-existent, you will not be able to state your first proposition.

Don Juan » April 6th, 2012, 1:19 am wrote:Nothingness exist as a pattern because of the ability of thought linked to the external world via the nervous system, which then include the brain as a prediction-memory system. There are always two aspects compared, in simplest form, either one aspect of thought to another, an aspect of thought to the outside world, or two aspects of the outside world. These processes usually happens unconsciously as much as thought and observation and the network of feedback between them usually happen unconsciously.
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Sorry Ron,

Dragonfly gets this.. but his idea allows the pre-existence of Size and Time, both are required for any Change in his view. But my view doesn't allow the existence of either for what I call an Absolute Void.

My Absolute Void would be called a Null Set or Empty Set in the world of Mathematics. In my world of computer programming, I have to deal with such on a regular basis. It's very natural for me to think this way as it would be for any Programmer. It's very much "Inside the Box" thinking.. as you call it.

An analogy might be a Computer. When it is turn off, it represents the Potential of almost unlimited variations in rules and math. So you turn it on and it boots up.

This booting process lays down a foundation to be built upon. With this minimum foundation you get to choose what to do next. So you fire up a 3D Virtual Reality Game like Doom. The game loads into the memory-foundation and begins to follow unique rules supplied. It literally builds a Virtual World on top of the foundation available. After it construct such a world, it places you inside and hands control over to you. This world can be huge and take a very long time to explore. Along the way you may face obstacles such as doors, walls or even Monsters to slay.

Are those doors and walls blocking your progress Real?

It must be mind boggling to imagine how such a huge world can fit inside a few small computer chips.

Eventually, you quit the game and shut off the computer. Where did that world go that you were just exploring? It became nothing again. No Time, Space, Size, Matter, Light or Dimensions exist for that world anymore. That World just became a Null Set or Empty Set.. until the next time you play.

Our world is also built upon a 4D foundation called the Quantum. It's a lot like computer memory except it has rules regarding the relationship between memory cells. This describes a system called a Cellular Automaton. It only takes a few simple rules to create/describe such a foundation. It starts in Chaos and grows. Eventually, patterns emerge that subdue the Chaos and creates another layer of potentials from which Energy/Matter comes into existence. Then Gravity kicks in, Matter is collected and reconfigured inside Stars to get elements. Elements are released when that Star explodes and becomes Planets with Chemistry and perhaps Life eventually.

All from a few simple math-logic rules.

How many Rules can exist? All of them!

For each specific Set of Rule combinations, a different reality is brought into Existence. Some have embedded Time and other attributes, like size etc. Some become Universes like Ours.. with all the attributes we have. Most are just junk, dead and perhaps Timeless.

If any Observers are generated, then those Observers will marvel at how perfect their Universe is and may even attribute such perfection to a higher Intelligence or God.

But very few will realize their Existence is Totally Virtual by Nature.

Anyway, that's my spin on this stuff and definitely NOT outside My Box.. lol.

Regards,
Dave :^)

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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

I usually participate in most of the nothing threads, but I can't remember taking part in this one Don. Almost 5 years ago? I guess it was time we had another one right? :)
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Dave,

An Absolute (zero size) Void cannot again actually exist in the real world, no matter what else you want to call this, or who else also agrees with you about this. This is nothing but pure speculation on your part that "something" so completely illogical could actually exist to begin with, and again, does not conform to any of the fundamental principles of what it means to exist in the first place.

Could you exist if you "also" had (zero size) Dave?
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

There is much ado about 'Nothing', but the real ado is that the Eternal Existence cannot be other than it is, 'is' being the key word, in that it has no before and no after—since it has to be what it is, as causeless. I don't know exactly what it is, but all things known and possible have to be inherent in it, such as creatures, time, space, appearances, and all.

We are all arrangements of it, pending Dave not having zero size.

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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Hi Ron,

You are trying to see my idea's through Ron Colored glasses. You can't force my idea to fit yours because they are not compatible. How Big is Pi? It's a very long sequence of digits. It it taking up space or crowding you because of its size?

A Mathematical Virtual Construct has no Real Size. Size only exists inside the Construct and the same goes for Time. An infinite number of Universes takes up no space at all, no more than Pi does. All the values we use to describe a Reality Exist only inside the Virtual Construct.. not outside it.

Outside it.. is the Absolute Void.. with no defining features including No Time. That's the "Nothing" you are trying to understand. Not a big empty space like removing all the Matter and Energy from our Universe. It would still have internal Size, Time and Dimensions. Those are Physical Somethings.

So just start from scratch with an Absolute Void with no Physical Features and then decide how an Infinite Number of Universes can come from it. And the Absolute Void still remains.. untouched.. unchanged.

I'm sorry I can't communicate this to you. Everything I say.. you will try to fit into your perception of Reality and it just won't work that way. That's called Cognitive Dissonance. The inability to understand because it won't translate into the Concepts that you have already accepted as being correct.

BTW, nobody taught me about my Model. I had to Reason it out. I had to start with Absolutely Nothing to avoid the trap of explaining the pre-existence of any physical something, such as Time or Space or Energy.

The Universe had a beginning about 13+ Billion years ago. When you get tired of trying to figure out what was happening before the Beginning.. then you have taken your first step in really understanding.

And if you keep walking/reasoning that path, eventually you will end up where I am now. Of course, I have the advantage of being a Computer Programmer, so my Brain is already wired to think certain ways.

And believe this: If the Me of 20 years ago ran into the Me of today, I would be there right on your side calling the Me of today.. bat-sh!t crazy.. lol. But, I'd probably adjust pretty quickly, given the way my mind works. When I program, I don't think like I do in everyday life. It's very abstract and doesn't translate to English. It's all via mental Images. And it requires super focus, which at my age, is becoming harder by the day.

Best Wishes,
Dave :^)

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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

No Dave, the real problem here is the fact that some of your ideas do not correspond to objective reality. You can get away with doing this over in the Physics forum where someone's personal theory can often be discussed without any concern for this, but this is the Metaphysics forum, where everyone's personal thoughts, ideas, or personal theories really need to correspond to this standard, to be taken seriously by at least some of us here.

So after further explanation on your part, what you are calling an "Absolute (no size) Void" is just a fancy name for "nothing". "Outside it.. is the Absolute Void": "how an infinite number of universes came from it": What you have done here is imagined a something ("it") existing somewhere or outside(also a "state" or "condition"), that is described by you as "Nothing"

Or in other words, something is nothing? A completely illogical contradiction of terms Dave. And your Absolute (no size) Void/Nothing cannot exist outside your imagination in again objective reality, for the many reasons that I have already discussed here.

Your personal theory is wrong about this Dave. You're still not buying it? Why does that not surprise me Dave? If even someone like Lincoln could tell you from a Physics standpoint that your theory is wrong, I certainly would not expect you to listen to someone like me talking from strictly a Metaphysics standpoint, no matter how much evidence I provide here.
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

...to get easy on Dave, ronjanec, I think I can point to an absolute void...we aren't here before, and we are going to die. An absolute void can be when we die, an absolute void from our perspective.
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

ronjanec » February 14th, 2017, 8:12 pm wrote:Agreed by whom? Agreed by common sense logic Lomax, or CSL. :) If there was conceptually speaking no possible existence of any kind existing before the beginning of all existence, there could not have then been any kind of before state or condition existing in any way before this, hence the no before concept being a viable option or contrast to something always existing.

No, this does not prove in and of itself that some form of existence could not have existed always like I think DragonFly believes, but it does represent the only other logical option to an "Infinite Regress" type theory.

No, it doesn't. We don't know that time stretches back infinitely. "Common sense logic" is a meaningless term - for one thing I see no logic being deployed here, and for another, "common sense" is what led us to think the world is flat. We can't trust it to solve cosmological questions.

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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Don,

What you are actually talking about here is a complete absence of someone existing that can only basically exist in Objective Reality in the form of an observation.

What Dave is describing here is of course different and much grander in scale, or a very illogical something "is nothing" state or condition existing, that he also refers to as "the Absolute (no size) Void".
ronjanec
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

"No, it doesn't" And I never personally said it did Lomax(scratches head for the "need" for this particular comment): This is someone else's idea not mine(I again believe existence had a beginning).

You see no logic being deployed here? Where? What specifically? Is this a secret you are going to keep to all to yourself?
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Hi Ron,

Ron wrote:I again believe existence had a beginning

So before the <Beginning of Time> there was no Time obviously.. or the word "beginning" has no meaning. Thus with no "Time" there can't be change. And without a Change a Beginning can't Begin. Duhhh...

Unless of course you involve an external cause such as God. Which means God must have a sense of Time and a beginning. Then what caused God to begin? Or, if you argue God is Eternal and has always existed back in God's version of Time.. then what are we? The last thing to do on his Bucket List? How far down are we on God's Bucket list if he has been busy, previously, for an Eternity.

Ron wrote:No Dave, the real problem here is the fact that some of your ideas do not correspond to objective reality.

Objective Reality is the view from inside the Construct.

I'm trying to explain the origin/nature of the Construct itself.

It's like if I put an advanced self-aware AI inside my video game with a few Dragons to slay. If I open a dialog with such an AI, he will think I'm God and can't understand my Location relative to his. If I tell him the Dragons are not real but are just Mathematical Constructs I created, he will disagree and say my statement doesn't comply with his version of Objective Reality. He will say: "Dragons are Real, I'm looking at one right now!"

So then I put the Program on Pause and take a long sabbatical for a month. When I return I un-pause the Program and explain to the AI that I stopped his Time for a Month of My time. Since he had no sense of Time passing during the prolonged pause, he disagrees with me again that my statement doesn't comply with his view of Objective Reality.

How do I explain to him that his Objective Reality is solely an Internal View and he must think outside the box (in this case my computer is the box...lol) to comprehend the whole picture.

Bottom line: Your Objective Reality argument-stance holds no grounding for objecting to the Complete Reality.

Your view is inside the Box while I am trying to explain what the Box is.

But you don't seem to be getting the distinction between our view points.

Regards,
Dave :^)

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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Dave_Oblad » February 16th, 2017, 2:03 am wrote:Hi Ron,

Ron wrote:I again believe existence had a beginning

So before the <Beginning of Time> there was no Time obviously.. or the word "beginning" has no meaning. Thus with no "Time" there can't be change. And without a Change a Beginning can't Begin. Duhhh...

These statements seem not just misleading but contradictory. If change is a property - whether necessary or merely possible - of "a beginning beginning", if follows from this that we don't need time in order to have change. Your syllogism is a form of the Kalam argument, and this is how all Kalam arguments proceed - from contradictions.

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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Dave,

You start off your response to my most recent post by mentioning my response to someone else's off topic post, that basically has nothing to do with what I was objecting to in your personal stated views about "nothing".

You then try to talk about something you call "the construct" and make no mention of...and completely ignore, my previous objection that the Absolute (no size) Void/Nothing existing in your personal theory is an impossible form of existence, which also makes your personal theory at least partially wrong right from the very beginning.

There is Objective Reality on the one hand, and on the other hand is Dave wildly speculating about things that can never have existed in the first place, which you seem to believe is thinking outside "the Box".

Do I again need to remind you that you are in the Metaphysics forum? If you do not want to discuss metaphysical points that may challenge your personal theory here, then you should not be commenting over here, in much the same way that someone's strictly metaphysical comments are not welcome, or considered appropriate, over there in the Physics forum.
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Hi All,

Ron:

I made the point that our Existence is purely a Virtual Mathematical Construct and as such, it requires no space and has no physical size. Our Reality is a Virtual Reality. We exist just like Pi exists.. and neither take up any space.. we don't crowd each other.. there is infinite room for more such Constructs. The aspect of Volume or Time is strictly an Internal view from within the Construct.

And my input here is Metaphysical in nature. I can easily see your side but fail to understand why you can't grasp my side. The Box is a Mathematical Construct. Inside the Box it can be of infinite volume. From Outside the Box, it doesn't have any Physical size because it's not Physical.. it's solely Mathematical in nature.

Lomax:

Not sure I understand your point.
1. Change requires Time.
2. Before Time there is no Time.
3. If there is no Time then there is no Change.
4. If there is no Change then how did Time begin?

It a logical conundrum that indicates something external had to start Time.

Some call the external source God.
I say the external source is Math.

The God path can lead to infinite regression eventually.
The Math path is simple and finite.

But, that doesn't make me an Atheist.

The Math path can also create a God if desired, with a beginning.

My personal View is that it is likely the Universe is the Mind of God.
But Math kick started it all into Virtual Existence.

Regards,
Dave :^)

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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

ronjanec » February 15th, 2017, 9:49 pm wrote:Don,

What you are actually talking about here is a complete absence of someone existing that can only basically exist in Objective Reality in the form of an observation.

What Dave is describing here is of course different and much grander in scale, or a very illogical something "is nothing" state or condition existing, that he also refers to as "the Absolute (no size) Void".

What I was describing is not the complete absence of someone existing, because that presupposes still an existing observer point of view, that is, the observer from your perspective relative to the person "someone existing". What I was describing is when a person dies from or with respect to his own perspective or when I die with respect to my own perspective or when you die with respect to your own perspective. In someways, this event, from your own perspective is grand - for what follows cannot be known anymore.

Of course, this is different from what Dave is saying...
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Ron:

I made the point that our Existence is purely a Virtual Mathematical Construct and as such, it requires no space and has no physical size. Our Reality is a Virtual Reality. We exist just like Pi exists.. and neither take up any space.. we don't crowd each other.. there is infinite room for more such Constructs. The aspect of Volume or Time is strictly an Internal view from within the Construct.

And my input here is Metaphysical in nature. I can easily see your side but fail to understand why you can't grasp my side. The Box is a Mathematical Construct. Inside the Box it can be of infinite volume. From Outside the Box, it doesn't have any Physical size because it's not Physical.. it's solely Mathematical in nature.

What do you mean by Mathematical? Physical? Existence? Virtual Mathematical Construct? Reality? Construct? Inside the box? Outside the box? Physical?

Lomax:

Not sure I understand your point.
1. Change requires Time.
2. Before Time there is no Time.
3. If there is no Time then there is no Change.
4. If there is no Change then how did Time begin?

It a logical conundrum that indicates something external had to start Time.

How did the pattern we call time began is still a mystery, for whatever rationalization we make it will be based on the bubble we are in which cannot (yet) grasp "what's beyond."

Some call the external source God.
I say the external source is Math.

What do you mean by Math?

The God path can lead to infinite regression eventually.
The Math path is simple and finite.

The God path does not necessarily lead to infinite regression - God, "it" cannot be known.
But, that doesn't make me an Atheist.

The Math path can also create a God if desired, with a beginning.

That which is created is not God.

My personal View is that it is likely the Universe is the Mind of God.
But Math kick started it all into Virtual Existence.

What do you mean by God? By Virtual existence?
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Don,

ronjanec
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Dave,

"our existence is purely a Virtual Mathematical Construct"? Well, I certainly do not agree with that, but if I start to explain why, this will just continue to be Dave Oblad pushing his personal theory in my new thread about 'The Meaning of Nothing Existing'. And now you have Don Juan and Lomax also asking you questions about your personal theory.

Dave, you are doing this with any new science or philosophy thread on the forum now. Someone starts a new thread in science or philosophy, you then jump in with your math theory of everything, and then completely take over someone else's thread.

You do realize you are doing this right? I don't mean to be harsh Dave, but what you are (constantly) doing here is very annoying.

I wanted to suggest that you try to just comment in other people's threads without involving your own personal theory in your comments, but with an all encompassing theory of everything like yours I guess that is not going to happen right? :)
Last edited by ronjanec on February 16th, 2017, 1:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

If one takes “nothing” to mean the absence of existence, then to say “nothing exists” is to say, “The absence of existence, exists.” Clearly, this is nonsense. Indeed, the latter expression would be devoid of meaning and could not possibly correspond to anything real outside of the mind.

If one takes “nothing” to mean the absence of a state of affairs in a context wherein one would expect to find it, then “nothing” is a meaningful idea. In such case, however, the more difficult question remains: Is such a negation a fact independent of our experience of it?

Although, admittedly, there is room for differing opinions on this point, I would answer “no” to this question; for I would argue that truth is not the same as existence. The former is an idea, the latter the condition of the world itself.
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

I am in complete agreement with what you just said here Neri, and I would also answer "no" to the same question(I also admire the way you basically summed up everything important here in your relatively short post)
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Hi Ron,

Check the dates. I stayed away from this thread for 2 weeks giving everyone a chance to comment and talk about your subject. Your thread got no comments for almost two weeks. I wasn't going to jump in until it had some feedback from others and then, and only then, did I throw my one comment in.

That's not taking over a thread.

I would have stopped at one comment except you (and others) opened a dialog with questions or debates. If responding to such is taking over a thread.. then I suppose you're right.. sorry.

Of course a good debate draws an Audience and the Audience pays for this Forum, so asking members to censor themselves is not very healthy for this Forum. But if that's what you really want.. then I'll drop off this thread.

Regards,
Dave :^)

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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Dave,

What you are calling "censor", is actually another member just asking you to try to addresss your comments to the main point, or general focus of the thread, and not use this as just another opportunity to promote your personal theory somewhere.

We both know exactly what is going on here Dave, so please don't try to play the "innocent little angel" game with me. :) We have both wasted enough time on this Dave, so let's move on from arguing about this.
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

"Ok, blah blah blah nothing existing cannot exist somewhere, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?"

It must mean that the "space" existing inside the nucleus of the atom, and the "space" existing between the nucleus of the atom and it's electron(s) cannot actually be "nothing existing somewhere", and is instead a something that is physical, three dimensional, and non particulate: Any objections to this Dave included?
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Hi Ron,

Ron wrote:..is instead a something that is physical, three dimensional, and non particulate..

Ok, let's explore the topic of what it means to be "Physical" briefly..

Given:

In a 3D Video Game your Avatar (the entity you control with a joystick) can not walk though a wall and walks on the ground. If it walks off a ledge.. it falls.. and if it falls far enough.. it is wounded or dies.

Question:

Is the wall or ground in that Virtual Game World "Physical" by your definition of Physical?

Please give this some long deep thought.

I'm looking to get an answer from your Perspective.. and the Perspective of the Avatar.

Best Regards,
Dave :^)

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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Dave,

Everything that exists spatially in the universe is "physical"(with the possible exception of non physical thought and non physical soul/spirit...but that is of course a religious belief) I don't play video games, but if the wall or ground exists spatially then yes they are physical.
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### Re: The Meaning of Nothing Existing

Hi again,

Not sure you got my question Ron. The answer I expected was:

From your Human perspective (outside the game), the walls/ground inside the 3D game must be just logic and math (non-physical not-real) because they are being computed.

From your Avatars perspective (inside the game), the walls/ground are physical and impose real barriers for passage (walls) and to prevent falling (ground).

Do you agree?

Regards,
Dave :^)

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