Is Time Real?

Discussions on the nature of being, existence, reality and knowledge. What is? How do we know?

Re: Is Time Real?

Postby rajnz00 on January 7th, 2017, 10:16 pm 

Forest, I bow to the superior wisdom. My list was not supposed to be exhaustive. But could you please confirm (or not) if my basic premise was correct - that wind, sand and thermal stress would have a greater impact on the weathering of the pyramids, than rain, as suggested by hyksos?

My basic point was weathering takes place "over time". It's an ordered process. The first molecule knocked off by a blast of sand (or whatever method), would be "before" the second molecule eroded, by whatever method.

"time" is not the cause of weathering but provides the "environment", "stage" on which processes are enacted.
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby Forest_Dump on January 7th, 2017, 10:27 pm 

rajnz00 wrote: But could you please confirm (or not) if my basic premise was correct - that wind, sand and thermal stress would have a greater impact on the weathering of the pyramids, than rain, as suggested by hyksos?


Yeah, sorry I did not read enough to get to that. Yes, wind, sand (blown by wind) and thermal stress would definitely have had more of an impact than rain. There have been some wild exaggerations about water in that region (with one real oddity calling for massive controlled flooding to build the pyramids) so my eyes tend glaze over on some of that.

As to science in archaeology, I just did a quick check and Wiki articles on Middle Range theory in archaeology, processualism, Lewis Binford and contemporaries, especially M. D. Schiffer and his behavioralis,, etc., provide a basic start that I could prattle on about for many many hours and pages because I have been seriously dealing with and publishining on that stuff since the 80s.

But enough enough derailment from me (though I could certainly launch into archaeological perspectives on time).
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby Dave_Oblad on January 7th, 2017, 10:29 pm 

Hi Raj,

Not trying to derail the topic or hijack the thread. But I believe your position/paradigm on the Reality of "Time" indicates that the past vanishes and no longer Exists. So I made a claim.. and if my prediction happens.. it will totally upset your apple cart, so to speak.

Best wishes,
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby rajnz00 on January 7th, 2017, 10:48 pm 

Dave_Oblad wrote:Hi Raj,

Not trying to derail the topic or hijack the thread. But I believe your position/paradigm on the Reality of "Time" indicates that the past vanishes and no longer Exists. So I made a claim.. and if my prediction happens.. it will totally upset your apple cart, so to speak.

Best wishes,
Dave :^)


Hi Dave,

Depends on what is meant by "vanishes and no longer exists". Your past exists in your memory. And as Forest would probably be able to confirm, the past of London exists in some archeological evidence.

But it is no longer accessible. Try doing anything, like saying something, writing something, and going back just a few moments to when you said it, or wrote it. not to unsay it is or unwrite it, but just to experience speaking those words again. You can't go back an instant in time, or even a plank time instant, only forward.

"and if my prediction happens.. it will totally upset your apple cart, so to speak."

Dave, upsetting my apple cart is the wrong phrase to use. I and the whole world will hail you as a hero and saviour of mankind. Let me know if it happens. Preferably last year or sooner. We will celebrate together. :)
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby rajnz00 on January 7th, 2017, 10:56 pm 

PS - I do remember reading somewhere that if the Universe started contracting, time would reverse, and we would be totally unaware of it. BadgerJelly's backward time would exist and it would seem perfectly normal.
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby hyksos on January 7th, 2017, 11:07 pm 

rajnz00 » January 8th, 2017, 6:16 am wrote:Forest, I bow to the superior wisdom. My list was not supposed to be exhaustive. But could you please confirm (or not) if my basic premise was correct - that wind, sand and thermal stress would have a greater impact on the weathering of the pyramids, than rain, as suggested by hyksos?

My basic point was weathering takes place "over time". It's an ordered process. The first molecule knocked off by a blast of sand (or whatever method), would be "before" the second molecule eroded, by whatever method.

"time" is not the cause of weathering but provides the "environment", "stage" on which processes are enacted.

Science has isolated these particular "environments" in which the stage-of-time is happening. They are open thermodynamic systems. Nobody denies that time appears very real in these pockets of the universe. Boltzmann and Poincare (et al) tried to show why there is an Arrow of Time ever moving forward in those places. Boltzmann tried to prove that "time" is equivalent to an increase in entropy. Not everyone was convinced by his proof.

(But you already know all this , because you read Chapter 16 in Lee Smolin's book....)
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby rajnz00 on January 7th, 2017, 11:43 pm 

hyksos wrote:[quote="[url=http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=313687#p313687]

Science has isolated these particular "environments" in which the stage-of-time is happening.

Oh has it, O great ultimate authority on science?

They are open thermodynamic systems. Nobody denies that time appears very real in these pockets of the universe.

Thermodynamical laws are enacted for closed systems. Tell us where are the "pockets of the universe", or should I say "the main bits of the universe", where it is not happening?

"Boltzmann and Poincare (et al) tried to show why there is an Arrow of Time ever moving forward in those places. Boltzmann tried to prove that "time" is equivalent to an increase in entropy."

Did he? That's news to me.

Not everyone was convinced by his proof.

Boltzman tied entropy to statistics and probability, I think the whole scientific world, barring perhaps you, is convinced of his proof.

(But you already know all this , because you read [b]Chapter 16 in Lee Smolin's book....)

No I didn't know this, Thanks for informing me,
[/quote]
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby ronjanec on January 8th, 2017, 12:23 am 

rajnz00 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:56 pm wrote:PS - I do remember reading somewhere that if the Universe started contracting, time would reverse, and we would be totally unaware of it. BadgerJelly's backward time would exist and it would seem perfectly normal.


If the universe started contracting, "time" would reverse, and we would be totally unaware of it? This is wrong in so many different ways;

Would the earth stop rotating on it's axis and orbiting the sun, and then go in reverse somehow? Would 2017 become 2016 again? Would the seasons, and the phases of the moon, also go in reverse? Would 12 noon, or the sun appearing to be at it's highest apex of the "day" then occur at "night"? Would atomic clocks then run in reverse, since some of you actually believe "the movement of an atomic clock actually represents the movement of time" like in the famous experiment? Since some of you still very stubbornly believe that "time existing plays an actual part in aging us", would my grey hair and wrinkles gradually vanish, and I would be young again? This kind of very wrong thinking happens to person when they only think of "time" in terms of Physics.
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby rajnz00 on January 8th, 2017, 12:32 am 

ronjanec, did you read what you have quoted? I read somewhere.

However, in physics (special and general relativity) there is no forward or backward arrow of time. The equations run fine both ways.
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby rajnz00 on January 8th, 2017, 12:34 am 

PS - Reverse would mean exactly reverse. Not what you have said - That is not reverse, but much weirder. It would be like a movie run backwards
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby ronjanec on January 8th, 2017, 12:36 am 

rajnz00 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:32 pm wrote:ronjanec, did you read what you have quoted? I read somewhere.

However, in physics (special and general relativity) there is no forward or backward arrow of time. The equations run fine both ways.


Raj, I was attacking the theory you presented, not you personally.
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby Forest_Dump on January 8th, 2017, 12:41 am 

ronjanec wrote:
rajnz00 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:56 pm wrote:PS - I do remember reading somewhere that if the Universe started contracting, time would reverse, and we would be totally unaware of it. BadgerJelly's backward time would exist and it would seem perfectly normal.


If the universe started contracting, "time" would reverse, and we would be totally unaware of it? This is wrong in so many different ways;

Would the earth stop rotating on it's axis and orbiting the sun, and then go in reverse somehow? Would 2017 become 2016 again? Would the seasons, and the phases of the moon, also go in reverse? Would 12 noon, or the sun appearing to be at it's highest apex of the "day" then occur at "night"? Would atomic clocks then run in reverse, since some of you actually believe "the movement of an atomic clock actually represents the movement of time" like in the famous experiment? Since some of you still very stubbornly believe that "time existing plays an actual part in aging us", would my grey hair and wrinkles gradually vanish, and I would be young again? This kind of very wrong thinking happens to person when they only think of "time" in terms of Physics.


I wasn't going to mention this but then I remembered what section this is in so, in fact, this could be happening "now" and we simply are not aware of it. And never will be or can be so we would have to wonder what possible difference it makes (unless this somehow explains the "Cassandra Complex" we do see every so often).
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby rajnz00 on January 8th, 2017, 12:56 am 

I think one way you would be able to tell the difference is with life (At least if it happened tomorrow). Which is a reverse entropy phenomenon anyway. Life reduces entropy. Your life would begin at your death and end with your birth.

But a few hundred years into this - it would seem normal.
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby ronjanec on January 8th, 2017, 12:57 am 

Forest_Dump » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:41 pm wrote:
ronjanec wrote:
rajnz00 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:56 pm wrote:PS - I do remember reading somewhere that if the Universe started contracting, time would reverse, and we would be totally unaware of it. BadgerJelly's backward time would exist and it would seem perfectly normal.


If the universe started contracting, "time" would reverse, and we would be totally unaware of it? This is wrong in so many different ways;

Would the earth stop rotating on it's axis and orbiting the sun, and then go in reverse somehow? Would 2017 become 2016 again? Would the seasons, and the phases of the moon, also go in reverse? Would 12 noon, or the sun appearing to be at it's highest apex of the "day" then occur at "night"? Would atomic clocks then run in reverse, since some of you actually believe "the movement of an atomic clock actually represents the movement of time" like in the famous experiment? Since some of you still very stubbornly believe that "time existing plays an actual part in aging us", would my grey hair and wrinkles gradually vanish, and I would be young again? This kind of very wrong thinking happens to person when they only think of "time" in terms of Physics.


I wasn't going to mention this but then I remembered what section this is in so, in fact, this could be happening "now" and we simply are not aware of it. And never will be or can be so we would have to wonder what possible difference it makes (unless this somehow explains the "Cassandra Complex" we do see every so often).


But what could be happening that we are not aware of Forest? Our Spacetime calculations, planetary movement calculations, sunrise/sunset calculations, NASA missions calculations, etc. etc. etc. are extremely accurate, and I would have to believe that we would notice a general overall pattern of all our calculations starting to be off even an incredibly small amount.
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby Forest_Dump on January 8th, 2017, 1:05 am 

ronjanec wrote:But what could be happening that we are not aware of Forest? Our Spacetime calculations, planetary movement calculations, sunrise/sunset calculations, NASA missions calculations, etc. etc. etc. are extremely accurate, and I would have to believe that we would notice a general overall pattern of all our calculations starting to be off even an incredibly small amount.


Well in this kind of "mental experiment", everything including the construction of our memories and thoughts would be happening in reverse so, in a sense, you are going through the process of kind of forgetting everything that has already happened to you in the future.
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby ronjanec on January 8th, 2017, 1:29 am 

Forest_Dump » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:05 pm wrote:
ronjanec wrote:But what could be happening that we are not aware of Forest? Our Spacetime calculations, planetary movement calculations, sunrise/sunset calculations, NASA missions calculations, etc. etc. etc. are extremely accurate, and I would have to believe that we would notice a general overall pattern of all our calculations starting to be off even an incredibly small amount.


Well in this kind of "mental experiment", everything including the construction of our memories and thoughts would be happening in reverse so, in a sense, you are going through the process of kind of forgetting everything that has already happened to you in the future.


This is all starting to sound like a really crazy movie that even I would not watch on a January Tuesday evening on Netflix Forest. :)
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby Dave_Oblad on January 8th, 2017, 6:17 am 

Hi all,

If Time ran backwards suddenly, the people would become robots without consciousness.. Following the laws of determinism in reverse.

IMHO..

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby rajnz00 on January 8th, 2017, 6:28 am 

DragonFly, getting back to your answer to my question, before I was sidetracked by all kinds of rubbish:

I asked the question - When we measure Time with our clocks, what are we actually measuring?

DragonFly on January 6th, 2017, 9:49 pm said:
The Planck time is how long it takes for change.


I think so. The smallest change or interaction. This could possibly be a moment of Now. Planck time is about 5.39x10^-44 sec. Our most accurate clocks measures about 10^-18 sec or about 10^26 of these moments. That’s 10 followed by 26 zeros.

DragonFly - These 'instants' marching along would be the basis for the third hand of our best clock.

The question was – what are we measuring with our clocks, not how accurately we are measuring. It doesn’t matter if it’s a sundial or an atomic clock, they are all measuring the same thing to varying degrees of accuracy.

In my opinion, they are measuring the past. They can only measure the past and nothing else. Suppose you look at the clock when you read this, then you look at the watch again after 5 minutes. Those are 5 minutes of your Nows, which have slipped into the past. All you can do is only in your Nows. You live in your Nows. These Nows are being created by the expansion of the universe which is creating new Time as well as space, which enables us to think and act and function as we do.

I think this approximately is what Richard Muller and Lee Smolin think and that’s what I think too.

“What is by now evident and clear is that neither future nor past exists, and it is inexact language to speak of three times— past, present, and future. Perhaps it would be exact to say: there are three times, a present of things past, a present of things present, a present of things to come. In the soul there are these three aspects of time, and I do not see them anywhere else. The present considering the past is memory, the present considering the present is immediate awareness, the present considering the future is expectation. - St Augustine, 397 AD
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby ronjanec on January 8th, 2017, 10:36 am 

Raj,

We don't actually measure "time" or "time existing" with our clocks, atomic or otherwise: Regular clocks are again preprogrammed to measure the earth's 360 degree daily rotation into smaller synchronized increments man then calls hours, minutes, and seconds and "time existing". Atomic clocks measure a bunch of really complicated stuff that I am too lazy to try to describe here, but none of this is actually "time" or "time existing" here being measured.

Do you believe that goofy atomic clocks experiment actually "proved" that "time" could slow down under certain conditions?

(And there is really no such objective distinct thing as a "past" or "past time period" Raj, but that is another really complicated metaphysical/ontological discussion)
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby Braininvat on January 8th, 2017, 10:52 am 

You're all wrong! Time is an invisible ethereal flow produced by an astral being named the Time Being. Specifically, it's a flowing of divine gas from his butthole. This is why we say we are doing something "for the Time Being." It is our way of worshipping his divine flatus. Also, when we say "time passes," that's short for "Time passes....gas."

I don't understand why philosophy has to be hard. Wake up and smell the fart!
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby ronjanec on January 8th, 2017, 10:54 am 

Braininvat » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:52 am wrote:You're all wrong! Time is an invisible ethereal flow produced by an astral being named the Time Being. Specifically, it's a flowing of divine gas from his butthole. This is why we say we are doing something "for the Time Being." It is our way of worshipping his divine flatus. Also, when we say "time passes," that's short for "Time passes....gas."

I don't understand why philosophy has to be hard. Wake up and smell the fart!


Link?
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby DragonFly on January 8th, 2017, 3:26 pm 

So, what time measures is change, whether it is perceptible or not, the basic change rate being the Planck interval. If there is no change, although this may not be possible, then there is no time passing, just like in the movies when the action freezes.

So then we move on to what is change and why there has to be change. Apparently, there can be no Stillness so far since all change would have already come to a stop.

In eternalism, change comes when something moves through 'nows' in the time dimension along its block worldline, time being a special dimension, internally, within the 4 4D distances overall if pictured externally. In presentism, each change brings on a new 'now', which is all there ever is.

There are two degrees of change. One is just noise, as a kind of sub-time and sub-existence, such as with the virtual particle pairs appearing and disappearing, and the other is a higher change that give rise to an existence that persists more than just noise.
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby hyksos on January 8th, 2017, 4:41 pm 

rajnz00 has been reduced to a sparse pile of dismissive sarcastic quips.

Goes to show how far he has fallen from being butthurt that his thread was moved into Metaphysics. At the beginning of this he claimed he was "doing physics".
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby rajnz00 on January 8th, 2017, 5:46 pm 

Braininvat » January 8th, 2017, 10:52 am wrote:You're all wrong! Time is an invisible ethereal flow produced by an astral being named the Time Being. Specifically, it's a flowing of divine gas from his butthole. This is why we say we are doing something "for the Time Being." It is our way of worshipping his divine flatus. Also, when we say "time passes," that's short for "Time passes....gas."

I don't understand why philosophy has to be hard. Wake up and smell the fart!


Divine fart is odourless. But I think you're wrong, Time is money, ronjanec is obviously being short-changed and Donald Trump is lying about his age.
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby rajnz00 on January 8th, 2017, 6:16 pm 

hyksos » January 8th, 2017, 4:41 pm wrote:At the beginning of this he claimed he was "doing physics".

I was wrong. There was no physics till you came along. How is the grading system going? I will try harder to get better grades, but I must protest about ronjanec. You gave him only a B+ for his observation:
.. many things in the universe physically aged fine before "time existed" in the universe, or before man caused time to exist in the universe with his timekeeping system.

For shame
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby rajnz00 on January 8th, 2017, 6:47 pm 

DragonFly wrote:So, what time measures is change, whether it is perceptible or not, the basic change rate being the Planck interval.
...
So then we move on to what is change and why there has to be change. Apparently, there can be no Stillness so far since all change would have already come to a stop.
Actually, this follows from Einstein's equation of General Relativity. It predicts the expansion of the Universe,
Image Λ is the cosmological constant, which predicts the expansion. He removed that from his equation because he was convinced at the time of a static universe in equilibrium. He acknowledged it was a mistake. The Universe and no system within it is in equilibrium.

In eternalism, change comes when something moves through 'nows' in the time dimension along its block worldline, time being a special dimension, internally, within the 4 4D distances overall if pictured externally. In presentism, each change brings on a new 'now', which is all there ever is.

I think we live in a kind of presentism. The edge of the moving wave of the big bang, as Dave put it. Everything happens in that blurry boundary of Now, which enables us to hit a moving ball, punch or kiss someone, etc. Now is not an instant but a very short range.

There are two degrees of change. One is just noise, as a kind of sub-time and sub-existence, such as with the virtual particle pairs appearing and disappearing, and the other is a higher change that give rise to an existence that persists more than just noise.
Possibly. Though particles appearing and disappearing maybe something more fundamental. The very process of Now

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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby rajnz00 on January 8th, 2017, 7:02 pm 

Which leads on to the next question - Einstein said the time passage of time from the present into the future was a persistent illusion. That all moments of time were equally real. That there is no difference between the past, present and future.

So my question is, if this be true, why does this "illusion" of the flow of time persist? The flat earth and geocentric illusions were easily explained eventually when our instruments got better, (and our logic), but the feeling of the flow of time refuses to go away. It also refuses to be satisfactorily explained by all the proponents of the claim that it is an illusion. Why is that?
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby hyksos on January 8th, 2017, 8:13 pm 

but the feeling of the flow of time refuses to go away.


The "feeling"?

I will have to call confirmation bias here. You are a mammal on the surface of the earth. The facts : a life form on a planet bathed in regular sunlight. Those local conditions contribute nothing towards an explanation? You demand that we must circumvent all biology, circumvent thermodynamics, and circumvent molecular biochemistry and cut directly to the back chapters of a quantum mechanics textbook -- this is not reasonable.
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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby rajnz00 on January 8th, 2017, 9:54 pm 

hyksos wrote:
but the feeling of the flow of time refuses to go away.

The "feeling"?

feeling or perception. We "feel" or "perceive" the flow of time, just as surely as we feel a weight carried on our back. It is more than just a perception. we are unable to go back to yesterday or "remember" what we are going to do tomorrow.

Those local conditions contribute nothing towards an explanation?

What you are saying is - those local conditions contribute nothing towards an explanation of our feeling or perception of the flow of time. Why not? Our local conditions contribute to the illusion of a flat earth. We are very small beings on a massive globe. As you draw a bigger and bigger circle, a smaller and smaller section tends towards straightness. Relative motion accounts for the illusion of the Sun moving around the Earth and the Stars moving.

Aryabhata correctly argued that the earth rotates about its axis daily, and that the apparent movement of the stars is a relative motion caused by the rotation of the earth, contrary to the then-prevailing view, that the sky rotated and he gave the reason "In the same way that someone in a boat going forward sees an unmoving [object] going backward, so [someone] on the equator sees the unmoving stars going uniformly westward. The cause of rising and setting [is that] the sphere of the stars together with the planets [apparently?] turns due west at the equator, constantly pushed by the cosmic wind."

With ever increasing sophistication and accuracy of our telescopes and then rockets we confirmed these perceptions as fallacies. We can go around our globe and measure the distances to the stars. But we can never go back in our personal times.

Our personal times, as I stated, is an ordered sequence of events, over intervals. We cannot reorder them or approach an event once it takes place. We remember our past but not our future. And the best that the block universe people can say is, this shouldn't be.

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Re: Is Time Real?

Postby ronjanec on January 8th, 2017, 11:35 pm 

The "feeling"?

We "feel" or actually "perceive" "the flow of time?(or, "the feeling of time refuses to go away"?) No we don't: What you are actually feeling in this particular context is your personal awareness of your own individual existence going or continuing on, or your individual life going or continuing on.
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