survey of the Afterlife

[hyksos]

Methodological Naturalism , is a kind of epistemology in which we proceed with science to produce theories of what can be reliably measured and quantified. While proceeding so, we hold out for the possibility of the existence of angels, demons, ghosts, psychic powers, and an afterlife.

We might ask what motivates us to hold out on the existence of these things, given that the methods of science cannot produce reliable evidence of their existence.

In the case of life after death, it turns out there is a body of evidence. In contemporary times the word "life" is instead framed as "consciousness". So what is concentrated on in this thread is not so much the topic of life after death, but better described as consciousness After death. We might even replace "Afterlife" with "After-consciousness".

The Handbook of Near-Death Experiences: Thirty Years of Investigation
by Janice Miner Holden (Editor), Bruce Greyson (Editor), Debbie James (Editor)

You may notice something peculiar above. Namely, Holden , Greyson , and James are not listed as authors of this book. Instead they are all attributed as `editor.` A cursory glance at the book's contents will show you why this is the case. The book above is not a story meant to be consumed by Oprah Winfrey's book club. It is highly academic and heavily researched with citations.

The book was finished in 2010. By 2011, its contents were persuasive enough that a scientific investigation of NDEs and OBEs was undertaken by a cluster of neuroscientists and psychologists. That research tract was finally completed this year. A number of the scientists have been invited to share their conclusions on television and radio talkshows.

Those conversations always involve our newest and best understanding of death as a process that happens biologically to a person over several hours after losing consciousness. ("consciousness" here meaning the ambulance emergency definition of "not responsive to stimuli" and/or cardiac arrest.)

Then the conversations turn to consciousness -- in the philosophical sense ::. Religion and "And-then-I-met-Jesus-and-he-showed-me- flowers" (or what have you) are skipped over entirely. The discussions veer dangerously into territory that makes us re-evaluate what consciousness really is. Where we are forced to question whether it is even reasonable to attribute consciousness to, or identify it with the physical workings of the brain.

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https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Near-Death-Experiences-Thirty-Investigation/dp/0313358648

[Braininvat]

Hyksos, let's try moving this to Meta/epist. I am not sure why SPCF was designed so that new Religion posts do not appear in the New Posts list. But that's why I only just noticed this. Looks interesting - I have never believe in life after death, but I understand that the question of consciousness after death is an open question. I've heard philosophers talk about "recurrence" as well, where another person at some future point is born whose basic neural structure is so similar to yours that some basic aspect of consciousness (not memories, of course) has a continuity.

[SciameriKen]

Hyksos, let's try moving this to Meta/epist. I am not sure why SPCF was designed so that new Religion posts do not appear in the New Posts list. But that's why I only just noticed this. Looks interesting - I have never believe in life after death, but I understand that the question of consciousness after death is an open question. I've heard philosophers talk about "recurrence" as well, where another person at some future point is born whose basic neural structure is so similar to yours that some basic aspect of consciousness (not memories, of course) has a continuity.

I have been mulling this idea, and more or less, if consciousness happened once then it might just happen again! Of course, it is not as simple as that. At this moment, what I think of as "me" is really just a small snapshot in the timeline of the many me's that have inhabited this consciousness. Experience and biology shape us and the thoughts and behaviors I once had as a 10 year old are long gone. Thus, the only way a true recurrence could occur is if all the elements that make me - me - randomly fall into place. Given that we have infinity for a recurrence event to take place - this will happen, the question just becomes will it be the 20 year old me or the 60 year old me? :)

Also - nice to know others have had these ideas - nothing is original after all :D -- Which philosopher's Biv so that I might look into this more?

[Braininvat]

Hi, Ken. There have been several who have approached recurrence from various perspectives. There were the Pythagoreans, way back there, then Nietzsche and Camus, more recently taking an existential approach to recurrence. A more math/science perspective on it came from Henri Poincare and led to some of the more recent cosmological forms, like Max Tegmark's. Tegmark, IIRC, is the one who actually tried to calculate the distance of the nearest Hubble volume that would be identical to ours and contain our doppelgangers. I can't remember now who I heard talking about the "fuzzier" form I mentioned, where there is a continuity of some basic awareness but not a true doppelganger. In an infinite universe, it seems like all degrees of recurrence are possible, with all degrees of memory differences and life path differences that play out on Bizarro Earths.

[Dave_Oblad]

Hi All,

My hypothesis is that Time is never erased, that the Expanding Block Model Universe retains all events in History in a 4D expanding continuum.

Also, the probability that the Universe is a self-aware 4D Quantum Mind is quite likely. I call this the Cosmic Mind.

As such, all Events in History are part of the Cosmic Minds Memory and thus such a Mind can Read and distinguish the Event Trails to separate out those of a conscious Brain from a Rock. In this manner such a Mind could entertain itself by reading everyone's life stories and experiences. To see itself from multiple points of View. To Understand concepts like "Blue" and "Cold" and "Plants" etc.

But..

What if it saw value in the continuation of said Life Stories? Is it unreasonable for such a Mind to Transfer any Given Life Story into a VR of a suitable design? Allow such continued Lives to interact with one another within certain guidelines.

Or.. in other words.. after Reading all the Books in a Library.. would you like to see what happens if you could take all those Characters Lives and let them be Alive again in a controlled VR environment? Allowing them to Mix in new and Unique ways? Would that not be added Value and additional Entertainment?

Have you seen the movie "What dreams may come" with Robin Williams? If not, you should watch it, it's very good. It also rather nicely sums up my Point of View (within some minor limits).

It does raise the specter of the question: "Are all Lives worthy of after death reincarnation in VR"?

And.. on one hand.. would you like to be Reincarnated in an interactive VR? See family and friends again?

But.. possibly be Doomed to Exist for Eternity?

This latter idea I find a bit disturbing. I'm not sure I want to Exist for an Eternity. Eternity can seem like a very, very, long time, especially towards the end ;)

Regards,
Dave :^)

[hyksos]

It could be worth banging around the TOC of the Handbook of NDEs. Dr. Holden refers to something called Veridical Perception. This is an aspect of Out-of-body experiences. Some examples suffice to explain what this means:

• The person remembers floating outside their body during the tense times in the emergency rooms. They then can recall what the surgeons were saying to each other with high accuracy, even though they were 'out' during that time.
• A person who is 'out' in the ICU recalls a family member getting a candybar out of a vending machine. A vending machine on the other side of the hospital from their operating room. This is later corroborated by the family member. (family member is a diabetic that would "never" eat such kind of foods on any regular day).
• A person nearly dies at a hospital, is revived. This person later recalls incidences and conversations that took place among his two children at home -- miles away from the hospital.

[hyksos]

I forgot to mention : There are billions of Asian people living in the far East who were not raised around Christianity or Judaism. The Handbook of NDEs notices that the NDEs of Asians differs from that of Westerners. The difference is stark enough to warrant the two types being placed in different chapters.

[hyksos]

Hyksos, let's try moving this to Meta/epist. I am not sure why SPCF was designed so that new Religion posts do not appear in the New Posts list.

Okay. Well for the interested, please see my other threads in the Religion section.

survey of Non-Corporeal Beings
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=32534

Metaphysical Naturalism
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=32557

[Forest_Dump]

For some different uses of some of this neuroscience, I would recommend the following book:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_the_Neolithic_Mind

[SciameriKen]

Hi All,

My hypothesis is that Time is never erased, that the Expanding Block Model Universe retains all events in History in a 4D expanding continuum.

Also, the probability that the Universe is a self-aware 4D Quantum Mind is quite likely. I call this the Cosmic Mind.

As such, all Events in History are part of the Cosmic Minds Memory and thus such a Mind can Read and distinguish the Event Trails to separate out those of a conscious Brain from a Rock. In this manner such a Mind could entertain itself by reading everyone's life stories and experiences. To see itself from multiple points of View. To Understand concepts like "Blue" and "Cold" and "Plants" etc.

But..

What if it saw value in the continuation of said Life Stories? Is it unreasonable for such a Mind to Transfer any Given Life Story into a VR of a suitable design? Allow such continued Lives to interact with one another within certain guidelines.

Or.. in other words.. after Reading all the Books in a Library.. would you like to see what happens if you could take all those Characters Lives and let them be Alive again in a controlled VR environment? Allowing them to Mix in new and Unique ways? Would that not be added Value and additional Entertainment?

Have you seen the movie "What dreams may come" with Robin Williams? If not, you should watch it, it's very good. It also rather nicely sums up my Point of View (within some minor limits).

It does raise the specter of the question: "Are all Lives worthy of after death reincarnation in VR"?

And.. on one hand.. would you like to be Reincarnated in an interactive VR? See family and friends again?

But.. possibly be Doomed to Exist for Eternity?

This latter idea I find a bit disturbing. I'm not sure I want to Exist for an Eternity. Eternity can seem like a very, very, long time, especially towards the end ;)

Regards,
Dave :^)

Just to throw this out there - so if all time exist in 4 dimensions - then does the possibility exist that given the right technology one could hop between 3-D planes? I think the scenario you are painting with the VR is played out in the recent season of the series "Black Mirror". I've seen two mentions of the robin williams movie recently -- I'll have to check that out!

[SciameriKen]

I forgot to mention : There are billions of Asian people living in the far East who were not raised around Christianity or Judaism. The Handbook of NDEs notices that the NDEs of Asians differs from that of Westerners. The difference is stark enough to warrant the two types being placed in different chapters.

I always felt NDE's are due to lack of oxygen in the brain, the morphine, the adrenaline, or other hormone - the fact that different cultures experience different NDEs would be consistent with that, as the brain creates these sensations using what it knows/experienced

[Forest_Dump]

I always felt NDE's are due to lack of oxygen in the brain, the morphine, the adrenaline, or other hormone - the fact that different cultures experience different NDEs would be consistent with that, as the brain creates these sensations using what it knows/experienced

They have been associated with drugs, sickness, sleep deprivation, food deprivation, etc., and there are very common elements.

[Dave_Oblad]

Hi Ken,

The 4D Quantum has no equivalent to Time, or if that's hard to accept, then let's just say it is a zillion times faster that we can measure. For example: Entanglement collapse has been measured to be many 1000's of times faster than Light Speed. But may yet still be faster.. as the test itself has inherent limitations.

Also, it is not unreasonable to suggest that our Electrical Thoughts create ripples through this continuum. That such thoughts/ripples might be received by a remote Electrical Neural Network (Brain) as Normal Noise that takes the shape of having some meaning beyond simple background static electrical noise.

I do not debunk the Paranormal, as I see possibilities that might provide a foundation of credibility, even if not absolutely repeatable in test subjects.

I've personally seen a few Ghosts in my life that I can't reason away. One even protected me from a personal threat had I not got the message/intrusion.

Also, I am currently having an extreme foreboding about staying in my house through this coming Late Spring/Summer. I'm taking the hint and moving to Tucson Arizona as soon as I can. But more often than not, I tend to trust my instincts, wherever they are coming from. The actual nature of the threat to my safety is not clear.. just a feeling of impending doom that won't go away.

I love my current home, life, and will retire soon. I also hate to move.. ever. I'm dreading the move.

But.. there are some additional advantages to my relocation that have helped in making this final hard decision. So I am moving anyway.

Best wishes,
Dave :^)

[mitchellmckain]

We might ask what motivates us to hold out on the existence of these things, given that the methods of science cannot produce reliable evidence of their existence.

There are things we believe in for highly pragmatic reasons. On the top of the list of the reasons for believing in things is a decision about what kind of person we want to be. For example, there is a common believe in modern times regarding the equality of different races. Actually the evidence, let alone the logic for this is quite poor. Nevertheless, most of us do not even care to seriously look at the evidence on this matter for the equality we believe in has more to with our decisions about our own behavior towards other people rather than any kind of objective assessment.

The same applies very much to the belief in an existence after death. It is not a matter of solid logic either, but more of a subjective moral stance. Not only do believers want to see their life in the context of a greater justice and significance to their own actions, but non-believers don't want to diminish the significance and responsibility of their actions in the here and now by such a context. The contradictory nature of these varied decisions point directly the highly subjective nature of such thinking. But the point is pragmatic reasoning and decisions of a personal nature play a crucial role in the reasons for beliefs on such matters.

[nameless]

Methodological NaturalismWe might ask what motivates us to hold out on the existence of these things, given that the methods of science cannot produce reliable evidence of their existence.

First, everything exists!
'Thoughts' exist, as do their perceived content... thus unicorns and angels and demons and aliens and Dracula... exists!
To need/seek "methods of science to produce reliable evidence of their existence" seems a rather poor way to waste time, as you already can 'perceive/experience/Know' any and everything that you can possibly imagine!

In the case of life after death, it turns out there is a body of evidence.

"Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true." - Demosthenes

In contemporary times the word "life" is instead framed as "consciousness".

Only by the ignorant.
Which ignorant are you quoting? *__-

So what is concentrated on in this thread is not so much the topic of life after death, but better described as consciousness After death. We might even replace "Afterlife" with "After-consciousness".

(T)Here is One Universal Consciousness, of which there is no 'before' or 'after' (other than in the duality of your thoughts/imagination. *__-