What is CTD?

Discussions on the nature of being, existence, reality and knowledge. What is? How do we know?

Re: What is CTD?

Postby RJG on March 8th, 2018, 9:23 am 

BadgerJelly wrote:The body effects the mind and the mind effects the body - there is no questioning this any more than we question the number of fingers we have.

Remember, there is no actual "mind" - we only use this word out of convenience, to represent the 'recognition' of bodily experiences (aka "consciousness").

So "mind" itself can't do (or effect) anything, other than 'recognize', i.e. convert the non-conscious bodily experiences into "conscious experiences". And it is this conversion processing time that we attribute as CTD.
User avatar
RJG
Banned User
 
Posts: 964
Joined: 22 Mar 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby BadgerJelly on March 8th, 2018, 10:33 am 

I don't need reminding. You need to study and learn that the body and brain influence each other. It is not a one-way system (far from it!)
User avatar
BadgerJelly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 5345
Joined: 14 Mar 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby Braininvat on March 8th, 2018, 1:16 pm 

JFC what a tedious Mobius Strip of a thread. Let's all restate our respective positions another 20 times, just to keep our typing fingers limber.
User avatar
Braininvat
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 6706
Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Black Hills


Re: What is CTD?

Postby BadgerJelly on March 8th, 2018, 1:24 pm 

Braininvat » March 9th, 2018, 1:16 am wrote:JFC what a tedious Mobius Strip of a thread. Let's all restate our respective positions another 20 times, just to keep our typing fingers limber.


Come now, be fair! He has managed to squeeze out "Conscious Time Delay," over the past 5 years, to add "colour" to his position.

;)
User avatar
BadgerJelly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 5345
Joined: 14 Mar 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby DragonFly on March 8th, 2018, 2:08 pm 

What people still keep calling the "mind" as "just saying" with no showing that it is a conscious causer is actually C' neural activity (see Edelman and RPG for showing). Only C' can move the body. And of course C' and the body input to each other! There is no brain-body problem because the brain is an organ of the body. There is a mind-body problem for those who want "mind". De cart of denial can't get anywhere; it's stuck in the mud.

Time to restate wishes.
User avatar
DragonFly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: 04 Aug 2012
RJG liked this post


Re: What is CTD?

Postby mitchellmckain on March 8th, 2018, 4:44 pm 

DragonFly » March 8th, 2018, 1:08 pm wrote:What people still keep calling the "mind" as "just saying" with no showing that it is a conscious causer is actually C' neural activity (see Edelman and RPG for showing). Only C' can move the body. And of course C' and the body input to each other! There is no brain-body problem because the brain is an organ of the body. There is a mind-body problem for those who want "mind". De cart of denial can't get anywhere; it's stuck in the mud.

Time to restate wishes.


But you are wrong, it is D' not C'.

As long as you are going make idiotic arguments about arbitrary labels, we might as well join in the silly game.

Of course if you were a tad more specific and were talking about something like a non-physical mind then it wouldn't be quite so silly as your dismissal of the whole science of psychology.

psy·chol·o·gy
sīˈkäləjē/Submit
noun
the scientific study of the human mind and its functions, especially those affecting behavior in a given context.
User avatar
mitchellmckain
Active Member
 
Posts: 1326
Joined: 27 Oct 2016


Re: What is CTD?

Postby Asparagus on March 8th, 2018, 5:45 pm 

Braininvat » March 8th, 2018, 1:16 pm wrote:JFC what a tedious Mobius Strip of a thread. Let's all restate our respective positions another 20 times, just to keep our typing fingers limber.

To sum up: we're all conscious. Some of us are mindless. Philosophy is awesome. The end.
Asparagus
Member
 
Posts: 259
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Blog: View Blog (2)


Re: What is CTD?

Postby DragonFly on March 8th, 2018, 5:58 pm 

mitchellmckain » March 8th, 2018, 3:44 pm wrote:
As long as you are going make idiotic arguments about arbitrary labels, we might as well join in the silly game.


Why is Edelman's terminology of C' and C idiotic? Your continued name calling to everyone and other insults demonstrates that you don't have anything with which to counter Edelman at all; it doesn't help you but hurts your position.

Please undo Edelman if it's so idiotic and present something positive to your case instead of uselessly casting negative vibrations all about, like Badger does. You are more than that. You're not talking to those of that kind right now in your quoted post.

DeCartes "mind' stuff didn't make it.

How does something not C' run the show and what would it be and what is its basis, straight forwardly?

Citing folk psychology of "mind" won't do anything either without some actual showing.
Last edited by DragonFly on March 8th, 2018, 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
DragonFly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: 04 Aug 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby DragonFly on March 8th, 2018, 6:01 pm 

BadgerJelly » March 8th, 2018, 9:33 am wrote:I don't need reminding. You need to study and learn that the body and brain influence each other. It is not a one-way system (far from it!)


Yes, you do. Body and brain communication is not at issue.
User avatar
DragonFly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: 04 Aug 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby RJG on March 8th, 2018, 6:13 pm 

.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. -- Arthur Schopenhauer
User avatar
RJG
Banned User
 
Posts: 964
Joined: 22 Mar 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby Asparagus on March 8th, 2018, 6:16 pm 

What is truth?
Asparagus
Member
 
Posts: 259
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Blog: View Blog (2)


Re: What is CTD?

Postby DragonFly on March 8th, 2018, 6:28 pm 

User avatar
DragonFly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: 04 Aug 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby BadgerJelly on March 8th, 2018, 9:22 pm 

DragonFly » March 9th, 2018, 6:01 am wrote:
BadgerJelly » March 8th, 2018, 9:33 am wrote:I don't need reminding. You need to study and learn that the body and brain influence each other. It is not a one-way system (far from it!)


Yes, you do. Body and brain communication is not at issue.


Not an issue how? Are you suggesting consciousness has nothing to do with biology?
User avatar
BadgerJelly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 5345
Joined: 14 Mar 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby BadgerJelly on March 8th, 2018, 9:23 pm 

RJG » March 9th, 2018, 6:13 am wrote:.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. -- Arthur Schopenhauer


Repetition is the sign of a dull intellect.
User avatar
BadgerJelly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 5345
Joined: 14 Mar 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby DragonFly on March 8th, 2018, 9:34 pm 

BadgerJelly » March 8th, 2018, 8:22 pm wrote:
DragonFly » March 9th, 2018, 6:01 am wrote:
BadgerJelly » March 8th, 2018, 9:33 am wrote:I don't need reminding. You need to study and learn that the body and brain influence each other. It is not a one-way system (far from it!)


Yes, you do. Body and brain communication is not at issue.


Not an issue how? Are you suggesting consciousness has nothing to do with biology?


You didn't refer to consciousness or mind or any such synonym. The brain gets information from the body and the body gets directives from the brain. This is what C' does and what only C' can do. Don't use wrong words in your replies and then try to slip in other words in your further replies. That fails. Also, see my previous response to the same statement and try to keep up with the posts.

Mind-brain is a problem for those of that separation bent; body-brain is not a problem because the brain is an organ of the body. Get with it, man! "Biology" wasn't mentioned either. Perhaps get new glasses. Or I can remind you again a fourth time if you are having a bad day of remembering. Hang in there.
User avatar
DragonFly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: 04 Aug 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby DragonFly on March 8th, 2018, 9:45 pm 

BadgerJelly » March 8th, 2018, 8:23 pm wrote:
RJG » March 9th, 2018, 6:13 am wrote:.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. -- Arthur Schopenhauer


Repetition is the sign of a dull intellect.


I can remind you a fifth time if you keep repeating the great non revelation of the body-brain connection non dilemma. Even your insults are falling flat now.

Time to wake up an put something positive and useful in lieu of keeping on repeating and showing that only negatives are available in your C'. This is not to say that there is anything useful there towards you showing conscious causation to us.

We do have from you a wonderful collection of insults all through the thread which show zilch to us about the topic. Does that kind of attitude work out well in your home environment? Just asking.
User avatar
DragonFly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: 04 Aug 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby DragonFly on March 8th, 2018, 10:05 pm 

Asparagus » March 8th, 2018, 4:45 pm wrote:To sum up: we're all conscious. Some of us are mindless. Philosophy is awesome. The end.


Your posts never seem to have much meat to them. Where's the beef?
User avatar
DragonFly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: 04 Aug 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby BadgerJelly on March 8th, 2018, 10:20 pm 

Dragon -

He avoids the questions he doesn't like and repeats. I insult people if I feel they deserve it. And yes, it works out well for me in life to behave in such a manner. It is not like I don't think about what I say (athough RJG would argue otherwise it seems?)

You didn't really answer my question either. Does the relation betwenn brain and body (human biology) have anything to do with consciousness? If so, which would be hard to argue agaisnt, then would it make sense to look at the way the body transfers information?

Further still, given that the brain is considered important for consciousness (to say the least!) wouldn't it be worth looking at the structure of the brain?

When I said "biology" I don't really see how that is different from brain and body. Although I could have said brain and the rest of the body, I didn't because I assumed that was a given.
User avatar
BadgerJelly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 5345
Joined: 14 Mar 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby DragonFly on March 8th, 2018, 11:41 pm 

BadgerJelly » March 8th, 2018, 9:20 pm wrote:Dragon -

He avoids the questions he doesn't like and repeats.


State your question succinctly without demeaning and perhaps whatever your great question is may get more attention. I didn't see any such questions lately. If so, I would have answered them myself. "Just saying" 'blah, blah; it's not true' is not a question. Provide material that directly counters CTD.

BadgerJelly » March 8th, 2018, 9:20 pm wrote:I insult people if I feel they deserve it.


Great, and let's hope the mods will ban you because insults are against the rules, no matter what, and the mods stand in place to enforce the rules. Surely you've put enough insults to not be a borderline case.

BadgerJelly » March 8th, 2018, 9:20 pm wrote:You didn't really answer my question either. Does the relation betwenn brain and body (human biology) have anything to do with consciousness? If so, which would be hard to argue agaisnt, then would it make sense to look at the way the body transfers information?

Further still, given that the brain is considered important for consciousness (to say the least!) wouldn't it be worth looking at the structure of the brain?


It's all there in the Edelman material; pay attention; don't make double work for responders. Plus, you reformulated the question.

No brain, no consciousness; a faint, no consciousness; a blow to the head, no consciousness; anesthesia, no consciousness. A brain is needed for consciousness to appear. The objects of C have to be formulated by C' and they correlate, with C' having made some adjustments to better paint the face of the phenomenal transform to be more useful via the distinctions employed. Consciousness is a brain process. C is sequential to C' and fairly instant thereafter.

The body's nerves connect to C' via the spine; C' can tell the body to move through the spine and whatnot.

What is in our delayed consciousness can't directly cause anything right then and there. C' using this symbol/qualia or already having it internally to use later on is fine, however that goes.

The stream of continuous C seems to be of short term memories seamlessly stiched together.

It's called experience and learning. C' is dynamic and can change from learning/experience and thus improve its methods, whether for good or for bad.

Your and Mitches's folk psychology notions have grave problems more than just in this thread. See Patricia Churchland and her husband's dismissals to it. See Galen Strawson and his "When were you ever responsible" type papers once referenced by Braininvat. See Religion trying to present its "free will"; there are five variation to it, indicating, as usual, that it is being made up.

Ad hominems won't make problems you don't like go away; those attempts fail and don't work in intelligent debates, they being called "drops" and "failures", indicating also a low-life approach, a kind of a last resort of those who can't sustain their position. It doesn't fly; it's a primitive brain stem level thing. Its like a duck smashing into a brick wall. It hurts the one posting and doesn't help at all, demonstrating nothing.

We don't all like what gets discovered, but true searchers want the truth and aren't afraid of it, which is why they look for it in the first place. It's an ugly universe in many ways but for some good scenery and some good times.

Forget the nonsense talk, lest you distract from the thread and have others call you on it time and time again. Just a suggestion. Show your proof just as well as Edelman and RJG showed theirs.

If you have another method for C to run the show, then show it, and also say why those things running C (Say, brain waves from others) aren't just another input to C, along with those from C', etc., and also showing how C is a mini first cause.

Actually answer some of this stuff, and undo it, and then replace it.

If you can't, then you can't. Denial is a poor substitute. Denial/preaching/generalizing is dishonest; it says that some possible unknown is true when you think it's only a 'maybe', by hopes, wishes, faith, or wanting. Say why it even qualifies as a maybe.

Doogles was right on; "gut feeling" shows nothing of any proof. Of course one lives a kind of a second story, the first story/storey of the neurological subconscious below is in the dark to our introspection.

I suppose you can't really insult too much any more because it got all talked about and wouldn't look so good, or get you ignored, or banned, or booted down in more insult discussion. Live and learn is what C' can do.
User avatar
DragonFly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: 04 Aug 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby BadgerJelly on March 9th, 2018, 12:45 am 

Dragon -

No one here, as far as I know, is denying that processes take time - that is kind of implied in the meaning of the word "process".

The argument against RJG is simple. We're all saying that consciousness has an affect and he's viewing the situation as purely a mechanical thing.

Anyway, enough of that. I'll get back to you on this C C' business when I am on my laptop. At least there is soemthingnto discuss there.

If I am banned it will be due to pure stupidity due to the authorities of this forum. I think those in such a position to do so are more sensible than you though - I don't live in fear of such a thing.

My posiiton towards RJG is simple, and I've stated it clearly and asked the same question (hard to find because of his constant drivel and evasion.)

If he is insulted then by his own admission I am not responsible for my actions, because according to him I don't consciously decide to do anything. So if he was to start crying to the mods about my so called "insults" he'd be refuting his own claims.

If someone says something idiotic then I will say it is idiotic. If someone says something I find to be morally questionable, I will say I find it morally questionable.

If you, or anyone else, doesn't like it you can "choose" to ignore me, respond to point out my idiocy or amoral behavior, or block me.

RJG go back a bit. We continue to exchange messages and in some ways there is progress - slight, but I'm happy to continue and he appears to be happy to continue too. Has he asked you to mother him? Has he appealed for support and defense due to his frail disposition?
User avatar
BadgerJelly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 5345
Joined: 14 Mar 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby mitchellmckain on March 9th, 2018, 1:08 am 

Asparagus » March 8th, 2018, 4:45 pm wrote:To sum up: we're all conscious. Some of us are mindless. Philosophy is awesome. The end.


RJG tells us that he is an epi-phenomenal zombie and both he and Dragonfly tells us they are mindless. But perhaps we cannot repeat what they say back to them without Dragonfly accusing us of name-calling. (Oh and how typical is it of ideologues that they are so emotionally invested that they cannot distinguish themselves from their rhetoric) Meanwhile Dragonfly takes upon himself to redefine the science of Psychology and throws wild labels of "pop-psychology" on anyone who will not fall in line with his ideologically motivated re-definition of the science -- which frankly only makes him sound even sillier than he did before.

A much much much more reasonable response would have been to acknowledge the slight carelessness in failing to explain his use word "mind" was specific to Descartes dualism and to acknowledge that Psychology is a legitimate science, INSTEAD we have him making the utterly pompous declaration that Psychology is only a science if it cow-tows to his pet theories and ideological definitions. I don't know why he would expect any reaction to that other than our middle fingers -- on BOTH hands!
User avatar
mitchellmckain
Active Member
 
Posts: 1326
Joined: 27 Oct 2016


Re: What is CTD?

Postby DragonFly on March 9th, 2018, 1:51 am 

BadgerJelly » March 8th, 2018, 11:45 pm wrote:Dragon -

The argument against RJG is simple. We're all saying that consciousness has an affect and he's viewing the situation as purely a mechanical thing.


Poor sentence; not concise, and so not very understandable. Again, for your repeating the "just saying" that consciousness has an effect and is therefore causal… that approach goes nowhere and supplies nothing. Stop wasting our time here and show something. This forum expects useful discussion, not preaching without showing. Situation? What situation; provide antecedents.

USAGE
Affect and effect are both verbs and nouns, but only effect is common as a noun, usually meaning ‘a result, consequence, impression, etc.’: my father's warnings had no effect on my adventurousness. The noun affect is restricted almost entirely to psychology (see affect3). As verbs, they are used differently. Affect most commonly means ‘produce an effect on, influence’: smoking during pregnancy can affect the baby's development. Affect also means ‘pretend to have or feel (something)’ (see affect2): she affected a concern for those who had lost their jobs. Effect means ‘bring about’: the negotiators effected an agreement despite many difficulties.

BadgerJelly » March 8th, 2018, 11:45 pm wrote:If I am banned it will be due to pure stupidity due to the authorities of this forum. I think those in such a position to do so are more sensible than you though - I don't live in fear of such a thing.


OK, then keep on badmouthing the mods and BioWizard as being of "pure stupidity' if your C' thinks that name calling will do well for you. Will they recognize your "genius" of breaking the forum rules?

We can't lose: either you get banned or warned or it turns to that all can do as freely as you, in principle, although many wouldn't, since it diverts and all that jazz of dealing with a degrader/insulter/demeaner C'.

BadgerJelly » March 8th, 2018, 11:45 pm wrote:My posiiton towards RJG is simple, and I've stated it clearly and asked the same question (hard to find because of his constant drivel and evasion.)


I guess it's so simple and obvious that it has slipped your C'. Oh, and I see that "drivel" is the cause of your blackout here. Darn drivel; however, that's all I'm seeing so far in your post. And there was some "evasion" that caused your present CRS condition.

BadgerJelly » March 8th, 2018, 11:45 pm wrote:If he is insulted then by his own admission I am not responsible for my actions, because according to him I don't consciously decide to do anything. So if he was to start crying to the mods about my so called "insults" he'd be refuting his own claims.


Wake up! A C' can be insulted; where do you think feelings originate? On the moon? Sure you can't help it and likewise the mods can help thinking of having a decent forum that will attract members. You don't own or run the place, and so it is that owners, employers, parents, and the like can control your not being here. Is your use of "crying" intended to somehow color a report or the reporting system to be 'bad'? Is it not there to be used? Or is it some cry place meant to be a cowardly retreat?

C is that which doesn't perform causal actions because they are already the C' distinction of a just past action. Discuss, undo; try harder!

BadgerJelly » March 8th, 2018, 11:45 pm wrote:If someone says something idiotic then I will say it is idiotic.


But then if you do, and as Mitch says "bullshit", and more, and don't explain why then it is just preaching and thus dishonest and accomplishes nothing. We aren't all that dumb here as to fall for that. Have you noticed?

BadgerJelly » March 8th, 2018, 11:45 pm wrote:If someone says something I find to be morally questionable, I will say I find it morally questionable.


Good, as a kind of toned-down approach, but the thing like the thought police doesn't fly any better than a chicken and indicates a sort of yellowness in claiming that a finding that contravenes, say responsibility, is necessarily sought out to be able to then shirk responsibility. Do you not really know what philosophers do? That approach of demeaning the poster is a dead end and another low-life type of approach.

BadgerJelly » March 8th, 2018, 11:45 pm wrote:RJG go back a bit. We continue to exchange messages and in some ways there is progress - slight, but I'm happy to continue and he appears to be happy to continue too. Has he asked you to mother him? Has he appealed for support and defense due to his frail disposition?


Not understandable. You are posting to this part to RJG but then naming some "he" and "his" as if not speaking to RJG but to someone else. All I can make out of it is some kind of insulting, trouble-making attempt to call someone "frail". Do you know this person personally as mentally or physically frail? Your words seem mixed up is all I can say to that apparent type of drivel of yours. Poor debating; poor discussing; poor all around.

Have anything serious with some meat to it toward the topic? Or does it all spoil and go toxic? Go eat and get gas.
User avatar
DragonFly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: 04 Aug 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby BadgerJelly on March 9th, 2018, 2:35 am 

You asked I supplied the answer.

What does C and C' mean in more comprehensible terms? What is being insulted when you say C'? Is C beinf insukted too or not?

What is the diference?

I don't know, I am asking you.
User avatar
BadgerJelly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 5345
Joined: 14 Mar 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby DragonFly on March 9th, 2018, 2:50 am 

mitchellmckain » March 9th, 2018, 12:08 am wrote:
RJG tells us that he is an epi-phenomenal zombie and both he and Dragonfly tells us they are mindless.


I reminded you three times that zombies are impossible, per Edelman, but you haven't undone his analysis, and so your debating/discussion is as poor as Badger's. Get with it and follow the information in the thread instead of mouthing off about zombies endlessly. Poor try for an educated person like you. Get serious and absorb information provided and be ready to discuss instead of wasting repeated zombie attacks about the living dead. Besides, that doesn't undo the findings of the topic

Where else have you been to not know the connotations of "mind"/"conscious causation" in this thread and in folk psychology? Did you miss all the 'cart' references, too? Try actually following the responses; they are repeated umpteen times, so you can hardly miss them. Do you have CRS, too?

mitchellmckain » March 9th, 2018, 12:08 am wrote:But perhaps we cannot repeat what they say back to them without Dragonfly accusing us of name-calling.


Already dealt with above, as a demeaning sidetrack and more, such as a pun on "mindless", plus it is false that they used those words. As such, your C' is dishonest, but so be it.

mitchellmckain » March 9th, 2018, 12:08 am wrote:(Oh and how typical is it of ideologues that they are so emotionally invested that they cannot distinguish themselves from their rhetoric)


That doesn't excuse you. Talk about what you know and not what you don't about someone. This is another drop and furthermore not useful toward ad hominem distraction. Emotional investment biases investigations. Get with it instead of hurling unknown claims at people. Become known for some decency.

mitchellmckain » March 9th, 2018, 12:08 am wrote:Meanwhile Dragonfly takes upon himself to redefine the science of Psychology and throws wild labels of "pop-psychology" on anyone who will not fall in line with his ideologically motivated re-definition of the science -- which frankly only makes him sound even sillier than he did before.


Try listening. "Folk", not "pop". Do you have a word changing affliction? Or dyslexia? Then you're excused. See Paul and Patrica Churchland on their rebuttal of "folk psychology", as I already posted twice. CRS again? If you want to be a good part of the thread, then perhaps actually follow it.

I didn't invent the label. Wake up! I read them on it. At least make some real accusations while you are in your accusing mood. They didn't invent the label either. Get with it.

You don't have to fall in any line with anything. I challenge that you and Badger can't push forward on the notion of conscious causation so you ever push against, but since you cannot directly undo and replace anything, you resort to name calling and insult, as if that somehow adds to your position.

mitchellmckain » March 9th, 2018, 12:08 am wrote:A much much much more reasonable response would have been to acknowledge the slight carelessness in failing to explain his use word "mind" was specific to Descartes dualism and to acknowledge that Psychology is a legitimate science, INSTEAD we have him making the uttwould erly pompous declaration that Psychology is only a science if it cow-tows to his pet theories and ideological definitions


Wrong again. Folk psychology is not all psychology. Your statement is not decent in the least. Of course, psychology deals with how and why people behave. For you they would say that you are employing all sorts of defense mechanisms toward ideas you don't like. Go talk to them.

mitchellmckain » March 9th, 2018, 12:08 am wrote:I don't know why he would expect any reaction to that other than our middle fingers -- on BOTH hands!


I don't expect any more than that from the like of yours and Badger's C'. It appears that that is all you've got deep down to say in lieu of addressing anything directly: AN INSULT.

If you keep showing that's all your C' has, then… thanks, but no thanks for less than a neutral nothing. Same old flimsy insults and frail attempts at word tricks.

You, too, waste people's time here.

How's it working for any of you readers out there?
User avatar
DragonFly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: 04 Aug 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby DragonFly on March 9th, 2018, 2:58 am 

BadgerJelly » March 9th, 2018, 1:35 am wrote:You asked I supplied the answer.

What does C and C' mean in more comprehensible terms? What is being insulted when you say C'? Is C beinf insukted too or not?

What is the diference?

I don't know, I am asking you.


Nope, I've repeated about C and C' definitions umpteen times and so has Edelman. By asking about this you betray your non following of the the thread and so you are not a factor to be dealt with in any seriousness, which is the same as Mitch just set himself up for by not following and repeating things already dealt with multiple times.

You two in your C' are seeming as clowns providing entertainment as well as for input to cognitive behavior scientists of psychology investigating human defense mechanisms gone wild.

Try following the responses. Need I peat and repeat your cottage?
User avatar
DragonFly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: 04 Aug 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby BadgerJelly on March 9th, 2018, 3:15 am 

As for causal. I think about something, sometimes items appear in my thoughts, by way of these itmes and thoughts I then choose to act as best I can.

I feel hungry. I reach out my hand and pick up food, then put it into my mouth. We can of course go into infinity claiming what the original causal chain is. Given that the end of the known chain of events is "known" to me it is me knowing them not me recognising me knowing them.

I think it is reasonable to say if my spine is cut I cannot reach for the apple. The cause of this could be said to be the accident I had that caused this or perhaps we couls equally put it down to the lesion? What is the cause? If one more correct than the other?

So if I say consciousness has an effect and is therefore causal how is that wrong? How is it wrong when we can track the light hitting a retina and information being transported to the occipital lobe? Should I say that light causes me to see? That light is where consciousness is? That when I pick up the apple it is not me causing the action it is all down to the Sun?

Maybe that is why you find somethings so insulting in what I say. I have decided to mark out a reasonably vague line. When someone is clearly beyond it and without seeming attachment to it I will press them. It is not personal, and it is personal.

For example I take it as a personal slight on me when you selectively quote me. It is not nice, but assume you're trying to push yoru defence of RJG for soem reason. Maybe you're a fatalistic, nihilistic willfully ignorance and irrsponsible individual too. I don't think so because you appear to be agreeing with me more than RJG when it comes to consciously choosing what to say and what to think. If I'm wrong there please correct me.
User avatar
BadgerJelly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 5345
Joined: 14 Mar 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby BadgerJelly on March 9th, 2018, 3:24 am 

Dragon -

My point was you disagree with RJG. He is saying C does nothing to C', not simply that C does not immediately affect C'

Which is obvious. That is why I asked about his ethical position. Okay, I won't PM anymore. If Positor doesn't wish to me to PM either that is fine fine too? Would be better coming directly from the horses mouth though (not that I've any idea why positor would be unwilling to speak?)
User avatar
BadgerJelly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 5345
Joined: 14 Mar 2012


Re: What is CTD?

Postby mitchellmckain on March 9th, 2018, 5:36 am 

BadgerJelly » March 9th, 2018, 2:24 am wrote:Dragon -

My point was you disagree with RJG. He is saying C does nothing to C', not simply that C does not immediately affect C'

Dfly seems to by flailing wildly like a blind person hitting random people. No doubt the thread has become bit too complicated to follow when one is really only interested in talking about ones C versus C' theory. How absurd is it that he now calls anything not on that one topic (even definitions from a dictionary) by the disparaging name of 'pop psychology.'

Dfly ignored the whole discussion we had on different kinds of zombies so he can manufacture excuses for more inane accusations and imagined superiority -- all quite pathetic frankly. In that discussion it was mentioned that the philosophical zombies were quite different than these other types although it was in another thread where I explained my position that philosophical zombies are conceivable but metaphysically impossible. But in Dfly's desperation to prop up his imagined superiority (and thus his assumed authority to dictate his ideological definitions), it is hardly surprising that he jumped to whatever conclusion which supported it. Simply asking the position of others on a topic would not serve his dishonest rhetoric. Frankly it is time for me to stop expecting intelligent conversation from this person anymore. It is like talking to a mindless cartoon parody -- so at least he seems right about himself in that respect.
Last edited by mitchellmckain on March 9th, 2018, 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
mitchellmckain
Active Member
 
Posts: 1326
Joined: 27 Oct 2016


Re: What is CTD?

Postby mitchellmckain on March 9th, 2018, 5:47 am 

duplicate
User avatar
mitchellmckain
Active Member
 
Posts: 1326
Joined: 27 Oct 2016


Re: What is CTD?

Postby Positor on March 9th, 2018, 10:06 am 

BadgerJelly » March 9th, 2018, 7:24 am wrote:Okay, I won't PM anymore. If Positor doesn't wish to me to PM either that is fine fine too? Would be better coming directly from the horses mouth though (not that I've any idea why positor would be unwilling to speak?)

Eh? You are welcome to PM me any time.

My basic position so far is:

1. I do not know whether consciousness is an epiphenomenon. I have seen no clinching argument one way or the other. The mind-body problem and the 'hard problem of consciousness' are still open questions in philosophy. I do not find epiphenomenalism absurd, as some seem to do.

2. Whether consciousness (when clearly defined) is causal or not is ultimately a question of physics, not of logic.

3. Some of RJG's points are indeed matters of logic. For example, if A precedes B, then logically B cannot precede A. But nobody is claiming anything contradictory like that. The claim is that the 'conscious self' can affect the later 'physical self', and this does not seem to involve any contradiction. RJG has not provided a rigorous argument to support his assertion that conscious causation is logically (as opposed to merely physically) impossible.

4. A crucial question is whether CTD applies to decision-making. Is there a time lag between a decision itself and consciousness of that decision? Is the decision distinct from the consciousness of it? To say "yes, because CTD applies to everything" just begs the question.

5. I do not see this topic as a moral one. In fact, I think one's view on conscious causation is orthogonal to that on personal responsibility. A person could believe in conscious causation but say "I don't care" and exhibit cruelty, selfishness, laziness or any other vice. Conversely, they could deny conscious causation but accept that non-conscious, 'automatic' mental processes are part of their personal identity and accept responsibility for them. (Indeed, any sane epiphenomenalist must do so in order to lead a normal life.)

6. When I have time, I will read DragonFly's Edelman link, and comment on it.
Positor
Active Member
 
Posts: 1081
Joined: 05 Feb 2010


PreviousNext

Return to Metaphysics & Epistemology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests