What is truth?

Discussions on the nature of being, existence, reality and knowledge. What is? How do we know?

Re: What is truth?

Postby A_Seagull on March 7th, 2019, 5:13 am 

Did you mean Seagull?

"The fact I can doubt your definition. By your own standards, makes it untrue." ... no it doesn't! The fact that you can doubt it means that you would not label it as 'true' which is quite different from labelling it as 'untrue'.

"Truth, as an objective reality relies on being. " ... unfortunately this assertion has no firm foundations. In other words, it is a fantasy or an illusion. Which wouldn't be so bad if it were identified as an illusion. But to declare it as a foundation for knowledge renders the entire edifice as an illusion.

"Ultimately truth stands as a objective reality, whether people can, through the senses perceive as such or not. ".. unfortunately, this too is an illusion.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby charon on March 7th, 2019, 8:49 am 

Truth is what's there when there's no illusion. Therefore truth doesn't matter. What matters is illusion and to be free of illusion.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby Brent696 on March 7th, 2019, 3:25 pm 

A_Seagull » March 7th, 2019, 4:13 am

Did you mean Seagull?


Yes, sorry, late night and working off my phone

(Brent) "Truth, as an objective reality relies on being. " ...

(Seagull) unfortunately this assertion has no firm foundations. In other words, it is a fantasy or an illusion. Which wouldn't be so bad if it were identified as an illusion. But to declare it as a foundation for knowledge renders the entire edifice as an illusion.


Wow, so there reality that something IS, has no firm foundation?

A mountain is a mountain, yet the word "mountain", or any descriptive such as "a large hill", "upward projection of land", or whatever, are merely descriptions formed from concepts. Thoughts, ideas, how the mind might think of something, is never the "thing" itself, whether we THINK of something as being true or not, such is only a mental concept, it is a symbol and nothing more, the word "mountain" is simply not a mountain.

The mind is disconnected from what IS as it can only experience reality via the senses, and the senses are the source of all illusion. The senses tell the sun rises in the east, the color of the grass is green, the moon is larger some times than others, but none of these things are true.

Science, as a system that seeks to apply a standard of measurements, hopes to discover what is true, what the truth IS, beyond the distortion of the senses. Thus the mind, by the application of new senses, namely those instruments that are more reliable in there measurements, hopes to understand better what is true, that the actual facts are, what reality actually IS.

The mind cannot own truth, it owns only perception, the "truth" ultimately lies in the reality itself, that which exists, that which IS.

Someone's wife goes to the store, the father asked two daughters which store, one replies grocery while the other replies the drug store. One perhaps is true, lets say the drug store. The other is false, one is an ACTUALITY, namely she is in the aisles of the drug store poking around for ribbed condoms, the other false, not true, is simply is NOT, the wife is not at that store, it never happen, there is no REALITY to it, it does not exist.

Truth lies in the REALity, the actuality of the event, the fact that it has BEING, that it is, that it exists.

(brent) "Ultimately truth stands as a objective reality, whether people can, through the senses perceive as such or not. "..

(Seagull) unfortunately, this too is an illusion.


You seem to be clinging the the abstract concept of true or false, as if something is only true when the mind decides this is so, good and evil are abstract values that we can impose upon events whereas the world itself might be neutral, 20 people die in a landslide and we see that as bad, evil, wrong, what have you, but reality knows of no such value, the Earth doesn't care if those people were church goers or atheists, benefactors or pedophiles, the Earth did not even care whether they were there or not. The REALITY is merely the fact that deep saturation of the hillside allowed the weight of the soil above to overcome the friction and resistance that held it in place.

Our abstract opinions or true or false, are simply thoughts, and while it is true they are thoughts, they are never the reality to which they are imposed.

If I assign reality to thoughts, then "it is true you think what I say is false, so what you "think" is both true and false, so ultimately your thought must be false as it stands in contradiction to itself."

Said another way "If my opinion is wrong, then your assessment of it must reflect said wrongness, so in saying my opinion is false, your opinion must be false also"

Like odd and even, once an odd number is injected into a juxtaposition of two factor, right and wrong, true or false, the sum will always be odd too.

In the objective, true and false are expressed merely as "IS or IS NOT", one possess being, existence, actuality, the other is not, has no being, no existence, no substance.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby A_Seagull on March 7th, 2019, 11:13 pm 

Brent...

Brent: "The mind is disconnected from what IS as it can only experience reality via the senses"... yes ..a starting point we can agree on.

Brent:"The mind cannot own truth, it owns only perception, the "truth" ultimately lies in the reality itself, that which exists, that which IS." ..... but how can we discern this "truth" if we don't use our senses?

Brent: "Truth lies in the REALity, the actuality of the event, the fact that it has BEING, that it is, that it exists." ..... again.. how can this be discerned except through the senses?

Brent: "In the objective, true and false are expressed merely as "IS or IS NOT", one possess being, existence, actuality, the other is not, has no being, no existence, no substance."... but there is no process by which it can be determined whether something " Is" or "Is not".. except through the senses and a subjective opinion (or perhaps consensus of subjective opinion.).
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Re: What is truth?

Postby Brent696 on March 8th, 2019, 1:04 am 

A_Seagull » March 7th, 2019, 10:13 pm

(Brent) "The mind is disconnected from what IS as it can only experience reality via the senses"...

(Seagull) yes ..a starting point we can agree on............

but there is no process by which it can be determined whether something " Is" or "Is not".. except through the senses and a subjective opinion (or perhaps consensus of subjective opinion.).


God forbid we should appeal to the majority:)

I'll grant you that for most of what we deal with in life, we use the senses and the relative forms of true and false, your child is late getting home, call the friends, follow the evidence. Likewise one is feeling sick, categorize the symptoms, devise tests, etc...

In the "Newtonian" sense of life, apples fall, the sun rises in the east, but on a philosophical forum, when someone asked the question "What is truth", we enter the quantum world, as it were, where nothing is as it seems and nothing is solid.

HOW we think of reality, these "things", whether atoms or race cars, become illusions. And along with every "thing" else, we also lose our own reality. There is no truth here,

and yet, I am

I am observing, and when looking within myself, I am observing the observer, but not through my senses.

One might say, the only truth one can know, is to know themselves, from the Vedic pronouncement that the world is Maya, To Buddha's pronouncement "Neti Neti" (not this not that), to Taoism "the way that can be named is not the way", so the search for ultimate Truth is not an outward search but an inward one.

And just as those relative truths, whether and event is real (happened) or not relies on actuality and being to confirm it as true,

So coming to the ultimate truth relies on Being, and the only Being you can know is your own.

But if you are satisfied with the relative truths of life, living your life outside yourself as it were like the vast majority of human beings, then truth will be based upon actuality of events, after all it is true that the sun exists, and the planets, and ice cream, all of which are true only as they exist.

But the ultimate truth, takes us to understand the inadequacies of the senses, the falseness of the world, its illusionary qualities, and the illusionary sense of self we possess as we live through the senses, then one must withdraw the mind from the senses inward and practice observing the self, sight and hearing might be suspended, but logic and reason are not.

In short, the mind is more than the senses.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby DragonFly on March 8th, 2019, 1:16 pm 

No matter what the messenger, the message remains the same. What makes no difference, as the messenger—the implementation, is no difference—to the message.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby A_Seagull on March 8th, 2019, 7:56 pm 

Brent..

You haven't managed to answer my questions regarding discernment of truth except through senses....which doesn't particularly surprise me as a I doubt that there is any answer.

Brent: "I am observing, and when looking within myself, I am observing the observer, but not through my senses. " .... but you can only interpret looking within yourself in terms of the experience you have gained through the senses.

Brent: "In short, the mind is more than the senses."... well yes I agree... but that doesn't mean that the mind has some magical access to 'truth'. What it does mean.. as you pointed out.. is that the mind can take the data from the senses and ultimately infer that the model that it has created of the world is not a perfect model.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby charon on March 9th, 2019, 8:51 am 

You're all making far too much of truth. The word simply means in accordance with fact or reality. I am typing this, that's the fact and therefore the truth.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby Brent696 on March 9th, 2019, 6:00 pm 

A_Seagull » March 8th, 2019, 6:56 pm

You haven't managed to answer my questions regarding discernment of truth except through senses....which doesn't particularly surprise me as a I doubt that there is any answer.


I have, the "truth" that is discernible through the senses is a relative truth. Something either is or is not. An event takes place or does not take place. What you might call the "facts". Yet by "relative" each truth exists merely within a context, just as the sun always rises in the east. This is a fact, and yet as you broaden the scope, you find the sun is not rising at all, so what you thought was true, was in fact erroneous.

Through the senses we place value ultimately on that which is not, you think a sound is real, but it is nothing more than a momentary disruption of the silence, silence possesses more realness than sound ever will. When you look through the eyes you do not see space, you see only that which momentarily displaces the space, you think the car is real, but space has much more realness than the car, which is here today and gone tomorrow, has.

So everything you perceive, and think of as real, is only a momentary clouding, soon to be gone. So where is the truth, where is Being, as we look through the senses. The sound is real, but it is also not real at the same time. Thus it is all false, it is illusion, it is Maya.

Such "relative truths" satisfy most people, they are born, they live, and they die, scientists, brick layers, waitresses, and they all seek truth, and some, who broaden their vision, might see a broader truth or what is true from a broader perspective.


Speaking about the relative truths, that which we perceive beyond through the senses, to perceive truth more accurately, we need to understand how our minds often color what we perceive, what frame of reference we are looking through, what our prejudices are, are we imposing our preferences. To do that we must look within our own minds first.

But to look within our own minds, and see clearly ourselves, we have to attack the same preferences and prejudices, and the only way to do this is to become wrong. To give up the desire to be right. Seeking "rightness" is in itself a preference, and it will color all that you perceive. One must surrender the "desire" to be good, to be right, until one only observes, without judgement.

Then the only truth that stands out, that exists, is "I am"

If you truly want to right in the world, love someone, become one with them,

but that doesn't mean that the mind has some magical access to 'truth'. What it does mean.. as you pointed out.. is that the mind can take the data from the senses and ultimately infer that the model that it has created of the world is not a perfect model


People are born into rich families, poor families, Russian families, American, African, each dresses according to the culture, each comes from a different mindset, what is the truth. The truth is when they are all naked, so to perceive truth, at least more accurately, one surrenders, desire, etc... it is not a magical quality to surrender, to stand naked, one does not ADD, one subtracts ones self, those mental cloths and defenses they have erected.

The axiom I have carried with me is stated simply, "you can be right and still be wrong" in the relative sphere, one might be right about certain facts, but if you are using those facts to belittle another, then you are wrong in a much greater sense. More deeply it is just a matter of allowing wrong and right, truth and lies, to exists side by side.

I realize this is a bit deeper than you probably started asking about, but "truth" has always been the most important thing for me. In my near 60 years I have seen many seeking rightness, but hardly ever do I meet anyone who is truly seeking truth.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby A_Seagull on March 9th, 2019, 6:35 pm 

Brent696 » March 10th, 2019, 10:00 am wrote:I realize this is a bit deeper than you probably started asking about, but "truth" has always been the most important thing for me. In my near 60 years I have seen many seeking rightness, but hardly ever do I meet anyone who is truly seeking truth.


Not at all. So far as I am concerned what you have been talking about skitters along the surface of truth.

If you really want to go deep into what an idea is , the basic logic of perception, and the process by which a 'truth' is identifies and even a foundation for 'I am'.... you might enjoy reading my book.. : "The Pattern Paradigm".. https://www.amazon.com/Pattern-Paradigm ... 1477131728

.. or you might enjoy trying to find logical inconsistencies in its arguments..
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Re: What is truth?

Postby charon on March 9th, 2019, 9:50 pm 

Or, seeing as it's highly unlikely anyone's going to buy anything, and as we're all here, you may as well say your piece so we can do it now.

I still think you're (plural) making a mountain out of a molehill.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby A_Seagull on March 9th, 2019, 10:00 pm 

charon » March 10th, 2019, 1:50 pm wrote:Or, seeing as it's highly unlikely anyone's going to buy anything, and as we're all here, you may as well say your piece so we can do it now.

I still think you're (plural) making a mountain out of a molehill.


A problem is only a problem if you think it is a problem.

For some people the concept of a flat Earth or the idea that the Coriolis force is one of the fundamental forces of nature is perfectly acceptable, for them there is no problem.... but others like to dig a little deeper.

And for myself epistemology, the nature of knowledge and what constitutes 'truth' is THE fundamental question of philosophy. Without a good theory of knowledge, philosophy remains in the normative arena where the Earth is flat and the Sun goes around the Earth.

If you don't consider that a problem...... well then it is not a problem for you.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby charon on March 10th, 2019, 8:09 am 

It's not a problem, Bruce. I've seen your Amazon News interview on YouTube, by the way. You seem like a reasonable guy.

How we know things isn't a mystery. Be simple. Apparently that's one of the hardest things to do for people. Everything's made so obscure and difficult.

We know things from experience, right? Either first or second hand. I know that fire burns because I actually burn myself. Or I see fire consuming things. That experience is registered in the brain so we have the knowledge that fire is, or can be, a dangerous thing.

That's all. Our brains contain knowledge gained from experience, which is registered in memory. Everything we think of comes from that. We think according to our experience and knowledge. Without that background could you think? The instant you think of something it's come from your knowledge. There's nowhere else it could come from.

Think of something now, anything you like. Go ahead. You've seen it, read it, touched it, felt it, smelled it, or heard it before otherwise you wouldn't know about it, right? You know your way around your house or neighbourhood because you've seen it all before.

That's the way the body works. Information flows in and from that we find our way around. Occasionally the mechanism gets it wrong and we forget or misinterpret things but not generally. It's not true to say we are deluded all the time, it only happens now and again unless there's something medically wrong with us.

It's easy stuff, this, and not a problem at all unless we want to complicate it. And we love complicating everything.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby Brent696 on March 10th, 2019, 2:12 pm 

A_Seagull » March 9th, 2019, 9:00 pm


And for myself epistemology, the nature of knowledge and what constitutes 'truth' is THE fundamental question of philosophy. Without a good theory of knowledge, philosophy remains in the normative arena where the Earth is flat and the Sun goes around the Earth.

If you don't consider that a problem...... well then it is not a problem for you.


It is a common mistake to think one can substitute knowledge for truth, a small part of the definition for truth applies to knowledge, and this is in the context of "rightness"

Taken from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, the definition of Epistemology, under the subject of Truth

https://www.iep.utm.edu/epistemo/

We might say that the most typical purpose of beliefs is to describe or capture the way things actually are; that is, when one forms a belief, one is seeking a match between one's mind and the world. (We sometimes, of course, form beliefs for other reasons – to create a positive attitude, to deceive ourselves, and so forth – but when we seek knowledge, we are trying to get things right.)


So as I said, a man who truly seeks Truth, is an extreme rarity, as you said I skim the surface of truth as you define it, basically being "right" according to knowledge, but that is because it is merely surface truth. It is tied to perception, and thus mutable, and ultimately false.

To say as Charon has, "I know that fire burns because I actually burn myself" is a truth few could deny, and yet it is false in many contexts, "burn" in this context is a perception, if fire consumes a tree it does not feel the same sensation, and even with the word "consume" fire does not actually consume, the only "loss" with fire is the destruction of an "identity", which is only a temporal snapshot and possesses no lasting reality to begin with.

Knowledge abides in the relative, Truth penetrates to Being, the question "How do I know what I know" and "what is truth" are not the same thing.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby A_Seagull on March 10th, 2019, 4:20 pm 

Brent...

As I stated before truth is a label that is applied to that which is undoubted.

So the best way to achieve truth.. as opposed to knowledge.... is to develop the skills of myopia and tunnel vision.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby Brent696 on March 10th, 2019, 4:48 pm 

A_Seagull » March 10th, 2019, 3:20 pm wrote:Brent...

As I stated before truth is a label that is applied to that which is undoubted.

So the best way to achieve truth.. as opposed to knowledge.... is to develop the skills of myopia and tunnel vision.


I get what your saying, by staying nearsighted and lacking imagination, foresight, and intellectual insight, while remaining oblivious to any larger context, we can always claim to be right within our narrow POV.

Just like defining "truth" as merely an abstract idea, existing merely within the mind of man as he seeks to form categorizations about reality.

You might think about marketing your book within Scientology, I have never met one who was ever wrong.

As for me, and my search for Truth, I have learned to steer clear of the myopia and tunnel vision, I just can't see those as producing a better assessment of reality. But to each his own.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby charon on March 10th, 2019, 5:32 pm 

To say as Charon has, "I know that fire burns because I actually burn myself" is a truth few could deny, and yet it is false in many contexts, "burn" in this context is a perception


Oh, don't talk tripe.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby Brent696 on March 10th, 2019, 9:06 pm 

Chardon

Cow stomachs can't talk
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Re: What is truth?

Postby charon on March 10th, 2019, 10:39 pm 

Grow up, Brent, and stop trying be a smartass. Perhaps you'd like to tell the person horribly disfigured with burns that it's just a perception? Or the family whose house has been burnt out not to worry because it's only a perception?

But, of course, stuck in your own little intellectual, theoretical world you feel quite safe spouting nonsense.

"burn" in this context is a perception, if fire consumes a tree it does not feel the same sensation, and even with the word "consume" fire does not actually consume, the only "loss" with fire is the destruction of an "identity", which is only a temporal snapshot and possesses no lasting reality to begin with


People who write this sort of drivel have usually lost their mind. Life is real, Brent. It's not an illusion, or Maya, or any of that esoteric claptrap.

my search for Truth


Can you seek truth? Is truth something you can seek? How, when you don't know what it is? How can you seek the unknown? You can seek pleasure but the unknown is unseekable. To seek means you already know, or have a concept, of what you're seeking. If you already know what it is then it's not the unknown.

Truth isn't something concrete, it's not a thing, it's something elusive, like beauty or joy. Truth isn't getting lost in a lot of words and intellectual rubbish that has nothing to do with reality. Anybody can throw words together and give it meaning. Only fools do it and only fools bother with it.
Last edited by charon on March 11th, 2019, 12:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby charon on March 10th, 2019, 11:10 pm 

Truth is not something abstract, vague, beyond the clouds somewhere, it's in all things. It's not the great unreachable 'truth' that the mind likes to conceive. It's the truth about actual life, it's about seeing things as they are without any deception.

It's the the truth about oneself. It's the truth about what you think, what you do, how you behave. It's the truth about your mental constructions, your ideas and beliefs. It's the truth of the chaotic mess we live in, the starvation, the wars, the hideous realities of our life for which we alone are responsible. It's the truth about how we waste our time with non-essential nonsense, the intellectual ego-trips we indulge in.

It's the truth about our greed, our aggression, our loneliness, and because it's that truth we refuse to see it or look at it. But a mind which is avoiding reality will never go beyond that reality. There may be something beyond but it cannot be conceived by the mind. If it's mind-made, man-made, then it's not truth.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby Brent696 on March 11th, 2019, 2:06 pm 

charon » March 10th, 2019, 10:10 pm

Truth is not something abstract, vague, beyond the clouds somewhere, it's in all things. It's not the great unreachable 'truth' that the mind likes to conceive. It's the truth about actual life, it's about seeing things as they are without any deception.

It's the the truth about oneself. It's the truth about what you think, what you do, how you behave.

"""Grow up, Brent, and stop trying be a smartass. Perhaps you'd like to tell the person horribly disfigured with burns that it's just a perception? Or the family whose house has been burnt out not to worry because it's only a perception?

But, of course, stuck in your own little intellectual, theoretical world you feel quite safe spouting nonsense"""""


Of course there are truths, and there are truths

A great deal of philosophical discussions are about the nature of "Truth", how it might exists within different contexts of perception, being "burnt" in one context is bad, in another it is cauterizing and can save your life. Even being burned for the first time can be a good thing as it teaches you what the nature of fire is.

You have made it perfectly clear you think such conversations are nonsense, it seems your philosophy is that philosophy is a waste of time, so perhaps you would do better posting elsewhere, belittling and shaming through hyperbolic statements tend to be frowned upon in debate.

I will though apologize for drawing from you for the burned finger analogy, the sensation of burning is also common with extreme cold as heat passes through the skin quickly. One might feel the burn, but the "truth" is contextual.
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Re: What is truth?

Postby TheVat on March 11th, 2019, 4:00 pm 

Anyone who wants to continue with this as a philosophy thread, we will see you back here in a week. Anyone who wants to continue in the combative tone of some recent postings, or wants to reject philosophy, I am happy to shut the thread permanently. See you March 18.
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