'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrity

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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on March 9th, 2017, 1:34 am 

Braininvat » March 7th, 2017, 10:15 am wrote:One of those "numerous self-imposed rules" is the one that says you can't make assertions like that without proof. And lying, as we have talked about before, is notoriously hard to prove. It's easy enough to prove that a statement is not true, the real trick is to prove that the speaker's intent was to deceive.

But Trump has the US intelligence agencies for sourcing on details, and yet he prefers to use Breitbart. That in and of itself is a risk to the American people. When a far-right newspaper replaces FBI and CIA in informing the POTUS on wiretapping events - events denied by the US intelligence agencies, then this has all the hallmarks of an emerging dictatorship.

So maybe things are ramping up somewhat now:

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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on March 9th, 2017, 1:37 am 

Mossling » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:34 pm wrote:
Braininvat » March 7th, 2017, 10:15 am wrote:One of those "numerous self-imposed rules" is the one that says you can't make assertions like that without proof. And lying, as we have talked about before, is notoriously hard to prove. It's easy enough to prove that a statement is not true, the real trick is to prove that the speaker's intent was to deceive.

But Trump has the US intelligence agencies for sourcing on details, and yet he prefers to use Breitbart. That in and of itself is a risk to the American people. When a far-right newspaper replaces FBI and CIA in informing the POTUS on wiretapping events - events denied by the US intelligence agencies, then this has all the hallmarks of an emerging dictatorship.



Or, it's a sign that the intelligence agencies aren't working with, but rather against the President. And that would be an even bigger problem.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on March 9th, 2017, 7:59 am 

Paul Anthony » March 9th, 2017, 2:37 pm wrote:Or, it's a sign that the intelligence agencies aren't working with, but rather against the President. And that would be an even bigger problem.

That's only when the President has truth-telling rigour that significantly outshines the intelligence agencies'. So far, it seems that the intelligence agencies' statements have proven far more trustworthy than the POTUS'.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on March 9th, 2017, 10:58 am 

I notice that Spicer et al. are keeping Trump away from cameras and reporters, since his Obama-tapped-me accusation. Pretty clear they don't want their Improviser-in-Chief fielding the obvious questions to be asked. I like the doublethink where admin people are saying they aren't disavowing the President's remarks in one breath, and then saying there's no evidence of an investigation on Trump. What's that mean? There was no investigation, but Barack was running around with wire-clippers and alligator clips himself, tapping Trump phones? A hobby wiretap?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on March 9th, 2017, 11:24 am 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/ ... e34239468/

In case anyone doesn't know Canadian media, the Globe is pretty much the national daily newspaper because of its thorough business coverage and is quietly conservative, I would say about on par with the Economist or Wall Street Journal.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on March 9th, 2017, 4:28 pm 

The left wants Sessions to resign because he spoke to a Russian.

It should be noted that the Washington Post reported that Russia was not the only country whose ambassador Sessions met with. In total, as Senator, Sessions met with more than 25 ambassadors privately (20 in 2016 alone), but interestingly, the Post leaves out of their article that the day before meeting with Kislyak in his office, Sessions met the ambassador from Ukraine, Russia's on-again, off-again enemy.

The Post also left out of their article the fact that Sessions is not the only member of his Senate committee to meet with Kislyak. Democratic senators sitting on the committee such as Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Senator Claire McCaskill of Missouri also met with the ambassador (pictures of McCaskill's meeting are Google-able) and seem to have no recollection of it, according to their Twitter feeds of both recently and years ago.

Despite this, the Democrats appear to have no problems with McCaskill or Manchin. This is on top of the fact that former President Obama and/or his aides met with Kislyak at least 22 times at the White House, according to official visitors' logs. And all 100 members of the Senate — both Democratic and Republican — have had direct contact with Russian officials, up to and including Russian President Vladimir Putin.

It's amazing how things change when you put them in perspective.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on March 9th, 2017, 7:08 pm 

I don't have enough information yet to say what is or isn't significant here. Were all the meetings you reference the same type of meeting? I assume the President meeting the Russian ambassador is fairly normal, he being the President and all. Was McCaskill's meeting a private meeting or a brief chitchat as part of a group of Senators? See, I don't even have a "perspective" yet, because I don't know how all these meetings compare.

I gather there was concern also over the way Sessions initially lied about the private meeting he had, while under oath and being vetted for an important cabinet post requiring high public trust. I think both moderates and the Left have some concern over that, possibly more over the lying than over whatever content was of the meeting. The meeting with Kislyak, and other ambassadors, may have been legit, as you suggest. So the question, which is well suited to this thread, is why prevaricate about it? Why didn't Sessions, under oath, say pretty much what you said, Paul? "I met with numerous ambassadors, in my committee work, and Kislyak was one of them." How hard could that be?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on March 9th, 2017, 7:29 pm 

Here's Claire's tweet, from Politifacts....

Claire McCaskill
✔ ‎@clairecmc

Off to meeting w/Russian Ambassador. Upset about the arbitrary/cruel decision to end all US adoptions,even those in process.

8:25 AM - 30 Jan 2013


Politifacts reports that this was a group meeting to discuss adoption policy, and her other meeting was also in a group. So her recent "never had a meeting" tweet was baloney, which Politifacts put at "false" on their meter. She later amended it and explained that she meant she hadn't taken a private meeting. Fine, whatever. What I'm getting from this, and a couple other Senators I looked at, is that the character, and timing, of Sessions' meeting was basically different and rather unusual for anyone on the Armed Services Committee. Could be nothing, could be something. But the question in my previous post remains - why not be open about the meeting? Surely an unusual private meeting with Kislyak would not be easily forgotten.

Especially since the job Sessions is being vetted for, head of the DOJ, would include investigating Russian interference, if any, in U.S. affairs. Seems like you'd want to be very forthcoming about anything that would raise such an obvious red (heh) flag.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on March 9th, 2017, 7:55 pm 

Braininvat » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:29 pm wrote: What I'm getting from this, and a couple other Senators I looked at, is that the character, and timing, of Sessions' meeting was basically different and rather unusual for anyone on the Armed Services Committee. Could be nothing, could be something. But the question in my previous post remains - why not be open about the meeting? Surely an unusual private meeting with Kislyak would not be easily forgotten.



I think he answered honestly if you consider the context of the questions. He was being asked if he had met with Russians as a member of Trump's campaign. He did not. He met as a US Senator, once in a private meeting and once in a group that included 50 people. He has already clarified that.

He has also recused himself from any investigations into corroboration between the Trump campaign and the Russians, but the other side won't let go. They succeeded in getting Flynn to resign and they seem determined to get the same result here.

Also as a matter of context, let's not forget the Dem's have made Russian interference their main explanation for Clinton's loss. It is also a convenient story line to discredit a Trump Presidency. I have to take all of it with a grain of salt (and maybe some Tequila).
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on March 9th, 2017, 10:16 pm 

Paul, where there is smoke, there tends to be fire.

The buzzfeed dossier of russian election-interference allegations includes, for example, details outlining how the Russians were interested in the Republicans sidelining the Ukraine intervention issue. Trump's team asked for it to be dropped from Republican foreign policy. When Trump and other team members were asked who the individual who pursued that agenda was, Trump directly denied on video that it was him, and so did everyone else, until one aid said that he put it forward, but only after Trump had asked him to.

This is just one immoral Russian connection that has generated outright lying from the highest office, among many other connections. Therefore, the current "witch hunt" is not about Russia and American politics in general, it is about Trump's adminstration and its connections to Russia, and the DELUGE OF OUTRIGHT LIES that has been spawned as a result.

Even Fox news is tired of it all:



And in the meanwhile, nothing in the buzzfeed Russian dossier has apparently been proven false - it is checking out.

There is something about Russia and the Trump presidency that is being hidden here, and it could very likely be the pee-pee tape - it would be difficult for a man like Trump to recover from something like that being put online, he would be branded as a depraved, urine fetish sexual loser. Or else it is just a lot of money going between the US and Russia, which could be seen as America supporting Putin's autocracy, which brings ominous overtones for America's current freedoms. This is further supported by Trump's attempts to ostracise the mainstream press, and to make whatever he chooses to say the only believable truth in America.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on March 10th, 2017, 1:09 am 

Mossling » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:16 pm wrote:

And in the meanwhile, nothing in the buzzfeed Russian dossier has apparently been proven false - it is checking out.

There is something about Russia and the Trump presidency that is being hidden here, and it could very likely be the pee-pee tape - it would be difficult for a man like Trump to recover from something like that being put online, he would be branded as a depraved, urine fetish sexual loser. Or else it is just a lot of money going between the US and Russia, which could be seen as America supporting Putin's autocracy, which brings ominous overtones for America's current freedoms. This is further supported by Trump's attempts to ostracise the mainstream press, and to make whatever he chooses to say the only believable truth in America.


Despite your great desire to believe anything and everything bad about Trump, the dossier was fake.

It never made any sense to anyone with half a brain. Why would someone as wealthy as Trump have to go to Russia to hire a prostitute?

But, you still want so badly to believe.

The purpose of this forum is to discuss political theory, not to display your obvious political bias. Remember where you are.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on March 10th, 2017, 9:20 am 

Paul Anthony wrote:It's amazing how things change when you put them in perspective.


I suppose I have a different perspective because I have interviewed people applying for jobs, including some that required trust, sensitivity, etc., and so I just don't like it when people lie during job interviews. I suppose you guys just accept that it is okay to tell outright lies to Congress but Trump ran on a platform to be different from everyone else, drain the swamp as it were and, whether or not you believe him (okay no surprise I don't), I think it is only fair to judge him on his own stated agenda. His own guy told outright lies for seemingly no good reason.

Paul Anthony wrote:It never made any sense to anyone with half a brain. Why would someone as wealthy as Trump have to go to Russia to hire a prostitute?


Of course I don't think anyone believes Trump went just to hire hookers. Of course I am sure he has had them in New York, Florida and I wouldn't be surprised at the White House. And probably more as a status symbol and light entertainment than for the more physical gratification. But I don't believe he went to Russia just to see the sights or play a few rounds of golf either. I have no doubt he had some kind of business agenda but the problem is that he won't be honest about that either.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on March 10th, 2017, 12:29 pm 

Forest_Dump » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:20 am wrote: But I don't believe he went to Russia just to see the sights or play a few rounds of golf either. I have no doubt he had some kind of business agenda but the problem is that he won't be honest about that either.


When I owned a distributing company I traveled extensively. And I didn't play golf. I can only imagine what foul motives you might assign to my travel!

Or, you might conclude that I traveled for business. :-)
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on March 10th, 2017, 1:15 pm 

Paul Anthony wrote:When I owned a distributing company I traveled extensively. And I didn't play golf. I can only imagine what foul motives you might assign to my travel!

Or, you might conclude that I traveled for business. :-)


Of course I think Trump went for business reasons. But then of course Trump denied he had any business dealings in Russia. But of course how can we know the truth when Trump dragged his feet even on his tax returns so we wouldn't know the extent to which he would be in conflict of interest, the extent to which he is a corporate welfare bum, etc.

The hooker thing is really relatively minor compared to the much greater extent of cheap trashy tackiness he has revealed (I just saw a rerun of that Catholic Charity thing from just before the election). In terms of statesmanship, this guy makes Rosanne Barr look good.

And then we have a constant bombardment of outright lies to cover up other lies. This guy is making Nixon look good.

I mean both Canada and the US, as well as many other countries, have had their share of outright gomers in politics (I remember the gong show contestants in the summer of 2010 (?) before things calmed down to the more serious contenders) but this guy just keeps resetting the goalposts for lunacy. I get tired of the fact that there just doesn't seem to be any coverage of real issues but how can the media NOT cover this storm of insanity? Obama ordering a tapp (sic) on phones? Really? I seriously wonder how long it will be before this guy gets declared incompetent and locked up.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on March 10th, 2017, 1:26 pm 

(response to Paul's post, before I saw Forest's, so there is some redundancy...)

Traveling for business is not the issue Forest is pinpointing, is it? It's doing business with a country we are in conflict with and then becoming POTUS and failing to do two things:

1. Divest or create a blind trust, to detach yourself from any business relations with said country.

2. Disclose your tax returns to make clear you have no conflicts of interest in doing your job as POTUS.

Say what you will, other candidates and Presidents have done these steps. Often, when it was far less needful to do so (i.e. they weren't billionaires with globe-spanning business interests).

It is what the majority of Americans want from a POTUS who ran on, as Forest pointed out, draining the swamp and fostering transparency. At this point, either those steps make sense to you or they don't. Failure to take those steps seems very much at the heart of "collapse in information integrity."
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on March 10th, 2017, 2:42 pm 

Braininvat » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:26 am wrote:

It is what the majority of Americans want from a POTUS who ran on, as Forest pointed out, draining the swamp and fostering transparency. At this point, either those steps make sense to you or they don't. Failure to take those steps seems very much at the heart of "collapse in information integrity."


I can think of several reasons to be less than thrilled with a Trump presidency, but the alleged Russia connection isn't one of them. Trump recently bolstered South Korea's defenses. That is something Russia does not like. Nor do they like that he wants to drastically increase military spending in general. How can anyone still think Trump is Putin's puppet?

Yes, Trump has said he would like to see an improvement in relations with Russia in order to fight ISIS. In order to accomplish that goal he is willing to ignore Russia's support of Assad in Syria. That has angered the hawks in Congress. Hillary, as Secretary of State, and Obama were determined to overthrow Assad, even to the point of providing assistance to "freedom fighters" who turned out to be allied with Al Queda and ISIS. This, IMO, is one more reason the left makes such a point of continuing the idea that Trump is controlled by Putin. But there is ample evidence, as stated above, that not all of Trump's actions are aligned with Putin's.

There are many who would like to see Trump fail. There are some who would like to see him impeached. For the moment, those people have to be satisfied with smearing him. The Russia connection is most likely a political wet dream.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on March 10th, 2017, 3:32 pm 

Paul Anthony wrote:I can think of several reasons to be less than thrilled with a Trump presidency


And yet you sound like you are beginning to drink the coolaid of the alt-right. I began by strongly disliking Trump even though I actually agreed with some of his policies. But I did at least have some respect for some of what I thought was some of his accomplishments. As time has gone on I have liked him even less and completely lost all respect. The lies and incompetency seem to be simply increasing and he is showing absolutely no willingness or ability to learn. The most positive thing I can think of is that maybe he has a strategy to use the seeming lunacy to hide some of the things he is really up to. But event that appears to be giving him too much credit. To me the biggest problem with the Russian thing is that he can't even tell credible lies.

Paul Anthony wrote:Trump recently bolstered South Korea's defenses. That is something Russia does not like.


I would suspect that China likes it even less but then it appears that they have been unhappy with North Korea of late. I have difficulty seeing why Russia would care about South Korea.

Paul Anthony wrote:Nor do they like that he wants to drastically increase military spending in general. How can anyone still think Trump is Putin's puppet?


Again, I am suspicious of that. If the spending went into R & D, then it is likely anything productive would be quickly sold or given to Russia with all the costs to the American tax payer. Of course if the money were spent on the actual hardware, Trumps team of generals and billionaires will be happier (its their people who will ultimately gain the most) and Russia will have to spend and build to keep up. But I bet not much of the money will go to the troops.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on March 10th, 2017, 4:48 pm 

Forest_Dump » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:32 pm wrote:

Again, I am suspicious of that. If the spending went into R & D, then it is likely anything productive would be quickly sold or given to Russia with all the costs to the American tax payer. Of course if the money were spent on the actual hardware, Trumps team of generals and billionaires will be happier (its their people who will ultimately gain the most) and Russia will have to spend and build to keep up. But I bet not much of the money will go to the troops.


Just to be clear, do you have any evidence to justify that supposition, or are you merely stating your own unverified suspicions? Really, Forest, which of us drinking kool-aid?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on March 10th, 2017, 5:21 pm 

Paul Anthony wrote:Just to be clear, do you have any evidence to justify that supposition, or are you merely stating your own unverified suspicions? Really, Forest, which of us drinking kool-aid?


Paul, seriously, when has there been any doubt that the high tech components in weapons systems ranging from that used in logistics to tanks, jet fighters to the GPS in missles hasn't been simply bought? Even upgrades in guns are easily obtained by literally anyone, shipped to a friendly country if need be for appearances and then to Russia, China, etc. Isn't this kinda like denying that Israel got their nuclear technology and plutoneum from the US or do you want documentation on that too?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on March 10th, 2017, 5:34 pm 

Forest_Dump » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:21 pm wrote:

Paul, seriously, when has there been any doubt that the high tech components in weapons systems ranging from that used in logistics to tanks, jet fighters to the GPS in missles hasn't been simply bought? Even upgrades in guns are easily obtained by literally anyone, shipped to a friendly country if need be for appearances and then to Russia, China, etc. Isn't this kinda like denying that Israel got their nuclear technology and plutoneum from the US or do you want documentation on that too?


Okay, let's say that is how things are done. Why do you then blame Trump, while implying some devious scheme involving Putin if you believe this has always been done? I've never heard you blame Obama for it.

Or Clinton for expediting the sale of half the uranium output of the US to Russia.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on March 10th, 2017, 6:54 pm 

Paul I have always said the US policy of business first last and always was a problem but that has been a problem since Reagan if not before. So that is NOT what I have been pointing the finger at Trump about. My issue with Trump was always about his lies to the voters, Congress, etc. That being said, I do fully expect he will open up the books to all kinds of secrets and resources far more so than anyone before and he will go to far greater lengths to conceal his conflicts of interest, the money he will make and taxes he will avoid and hide behind his now well-established pattern of media manipulation, etc. As I said many many times I have absolutely no doubt Trump has business interests in Russia. I couldn't care less what his sexual preferences happen to be. But we should all care about what he now decides to sell Russia (and China and anyone else with a checque book) and I would have thought you would care about how he and too many others on his team lies to the American people.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on March 10th, 2017, 10:40 pm 

I suppose one result of all of this lunacy is that sometimes you do forget some of the more important things. I DO still have something against Russia: their invasion of Crimea and continuing war in eastern Ukraine.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on March 10th, 2017, 11:20 pm 

Forest_Dump » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:40 pm wrote:I suppose one result of all of this lunacy is that sometimes you do forget some of the more important things. I DO still have something against Russia: their invasion of Crimea and continuing war in eastern Ukraine.


Crimea is home to a very vital Russian naval base. After the US managed to overthrow the Ukraine president that was favorable to Russia and installed a new president that is not, Russia was in danger of losing that naval base. Can't say I blame Putin for protecting his country's interests.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on March 10th, 2017, 11:35 pm 

Paul Anthony wrote:Crimea is home to a very vital Russian naval base. After the US managed to overthrow the Ukraine president that was favorable to Russia and installed a new president that is not, Russia was in danger of losing that naval base. Can't say I blame Putin for protecting his country's interests.


From this do I take it that you would be in favour of the US invading Cuba to protect Git? I think Russia could have done two things. 1) Adjust the borders back when Ukrania was within the USSR or 2) (better) get their base out of the Ukraine. Protecting claimed national interests has been the cause of pretty much every war there has ever been.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on March 11th, 2017, 12:39 pm 

Shifting the conversation a bit...

According to Wikileaks, the CIA is able to use our devices to spy on us. Someone asked "Alexa", Amazon's device if it was connected to the CIA. The answers are...interesting. Someone else asked Goggle Home.

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/woman-asks-alexa-are-you-connected-to-the-cia-alexa-who-supposedly-cant-lie-refuses-to-answer_032017
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on March 11th, 2017, 2:41 pm 

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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on March 11th, 2017, 4:05 pm 



This is how we give up our freedom. The features are so enticing that we ignore the invasion of privacy.
Just as the Patriot Act was passed by promising us safety, we are easily distracted by shiny objects and empty promises. *sigh*
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on March 12th, 2017, 2:14 am 

Paul Anthony » March 11th, 2017, 3:42 am wrote:I can think of several reasons to be less than thrilled with a Trump presidency, but the alleged Russia connection isn't one of them. Trump recently bolstered South Korea's defenses. That is something Russia does not like. Nor do they like that he wants to drastically increase military spending in general. How can anyone still think Trump is Putin's puppet?

Yes, Trump has said he would like to see an improvement in relations with Russia in order to fight ISIS. In order to accomplish that goal he is willing to ignore Russia's support of Assad in Syria. That has angered the hawks in Congress. Hillary, as Secretary of State, and Obama were determined to overthrow Assad, even to the point of providing assistance to "freedom fighters" who turned out to be allied with Al Queda and ISIS. This, IMO, is one more reason the left makes such a point of continuing the idea that Trump is controlled by Putin. But there is ample evidence, as stated above, that not all of Trump's actions are aligned with Putin's.

Lol, you are coming across like this forum's Sean Spicer more and more as time goes on. Of course there are plenty of ties.

Image

US investigators corroborate some aspects of the Russia dossier
CNN, February 10, 2017
...the intercepts do confirm that some of the conversations described in the dossier took place between the same individuals on the same days and from the same locations as detailed in the dossier, according to the officials. CNN has not confirmed whether any content relates to then-candidate Trump.
The corroboration, based on intercepted communications, has given US intelligence and law enforcement "greater confidence" in the credibility of some aspects of the dossier as they continue to actively investigate its contents, these sources say.

Reached for comment this afternoon, White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer said, "We continue to be disgusted by CNN's fake news reporting."


If they wanted to discredit the dossier, it would be as simple as releasing good evidence that undermines at least two or three major facts in it. Then it's alleged rigour would be well and truly trashed. It remains that this has not yet happened, while many details have been confirmed as true.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on March 16th, 2017, 10:07 pm 

Senate intelligence chiefs of both parties reject Trump wiretapping claim
The Guardian, 16 March 2017
“Based on the information available to us, we see no indications that Trump Tower was the subject of surveillance by any element of the United States government either before or after election day 2016,” the Republican Richard Burr of North Carolina and the Democrat Mark Warner of Virginia said in a joint statement on Thursday.

Burr and Warner helm one of the congressional committees investigating ties to Russia by Trump’s associates. Those unfolding inquiries have expanded their focus to include Trump’s evidence-free accusation, made on Twitter on 4 March, that Obama ordered surveillance of his eventual successor.

Their counterparts on the House intelligence committee, the Republican Devin Nunes and the Democrat Adam Schiff, both of California, announced the same conclusion on Wednesday.

“We don’t have any evidence that took place,” said Nunes, a crucial Trump ally and member of his national security transition team, who nevertheless fanned the flames of Trump’s theory in a press conference.

“Are you going to take the tweets literally? And if you are, then clearly the president was wrong. But if you’re not going to take the tweets literally – and there is a concern that the president has about other people, other surveillance activities looking at him and his associates, either appropriately or inappropriately. We want to find that out,” Nunes said.

Trump created a political firestorm on 4 March in a series of tweets that called Obama a “bad (or sick) guy” for an allegation that, from the start, US officials called groundless and Obama unequivocally denied.

It seems that Trump's tweet came from a combination of a NYT article and a FOX News question to Paul Ryan the night before the tweet, where the news anchor asks Ryan about any possible wiretapping of Trump Tower, to which Ryan replies that there is no evidence.

Intercepted Russian Communications Part of Inquiry Into Trump Associates
The New York Times, JAN. 19, 2017
The continuing counterintelligence investigation means that Mr. Trump will take the oath of office on Friday with his associates under investigation and after the intelligence agencies concluded that the Russian government had worked to help elect him. As president, Mr. Trump will oversee those agencies and have the authority to redirect or stop at least some of these efforts.

It is not clear whether the intercepted communications had anything to do with Mr. Trump’s campaign, or Mr. Trump himself. It is also unclear whether the inquiry has anything to do with an investigation into the hacking of the Democratic National Committee’s computers and other attempts to disrupt the elections in November. The American government has concluded that the Russian government was responsible for a broad computer hacking campaign, including the operation against the D.N.C.

So again, this is ultimately a Russian connection issue, which could possibly be being deflected by Trump towards an asserted criminal act perpetrated by Obama's administration.

Here is the FOX News question regarding the possible Trump Tower wiretapping via "a report":


It seems the next logical question is what was the report that was being referred to by the anchor? Was it made up by some conspiracy theorist? Or is it something real that the intelligence agencies are covering up? The TRUTH needs to come out. Either way, it is seemingly going to be deeply significant to this whole post-truth political whirlwind that is taking place.
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Mossling
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on March 20th, 2017, 8:51 pm 



At the smallest level, this now become a case of 'the president who cries wolf'.

He even had the audacity to show disrespect during the hearing process by tweeting nonsense about it. Trump insults "so-called" judges, and refuses to accept the authority and outlook of many other aspects of long-established American institions and procedures, all the while peddling grossly inflammative and untrue viewpoints.

So if you cannot trust your president in matters of national security, what happens next?

Mass demonstrations from democratic patriots surrounding the Whitehouse?

Approval ratings have continued to dip down - now to 37%:



There is no undermining the truth - it always comes out in the wash.
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