Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby BadgerJelly on September 3rd, 2017, 11:46 am 

To quote myself:

I am not talking about the US in particular either. I am talking about the global situation.


I will try and keep this topic on-track a little.

I am looking at things that involve economic change in the near future. There are a couple of things I've noticed due to the arrival of global communications that seem to be tipped the older "capitalist" model over to one side (as mentioned above I outlined this in my comments about state control being taken under the private sectors influence and such.)

Two things really spring to mind now. One is the future effect of cryptocurrencies and possible spin-offs of this kind of "internet liberation" from hard currencies and bank control. This plus the general trend of lesser developed countries and peoples being dragged into the modern communication age and the socio-political conflicts arising form this.

As the focus here is on economics specifically that is not to say these trends are superficial. I actually think they will change the economical model into something else. So I am proposing we should be looking at current revolutions in technology and communications to see, in part, where the model of capitalism is heading and how it'll be replaced/dropped, and what kind of model will likely replace it.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Athena on September 3rd, 2017, 12:02 pm 

hyksos » September 2nd, 2017, 9:16 am wrote:
BadgerJelly » July 17th, 2017, 1:06 pm wrote:It should be pretty obvious that Capitalism has finally started to show certain cracks for the poorer members of society.

We are essentially talking about a system which has led to the constant pursuit of cheaper and cheaper production with profits being confined more and more to a few wealthy individuals..


Image

On understanding what this map is showing :

  • You must realize the entire GREY REGION of the map. Then imagine adding up all the wealth in all the grey regions.
  • The blue region is two sections. Imagine adding up the entire wealth of China, Japan, and a few blue countries in Europe.
  • The red region is the USA. Only the USA .. not Canada. Canada is grey.

Now the punchline. The three regions, red, grey, and blue all have equivalent amounts of cumulative wealth. Literally, this map is showing the earth divided into three regions of equal wealth.

Your first gut reaction to this map is to say "Oh well.. the USA must be super rich and wealthy. Americans must live in the lap of luxury!". This reaction is premature. As Bernie Sanders has told us, (over and over again on TV),

People understand that something is profoundly wrong when the 20 richest people in our country own more wealth than the bottom half of the American population — 150 million people.


That super wealth in the USA is not equitably distributed amongst its inhabitants. Far far from it. It is inexorably concentrated in the hands of a tiny investor class.

This map shows us what capitalism has succeeded at doing. In a more cynical tone, the map really only shows us where the super-rich live. It is not a clear measure of how comfortable the inhabitants of those countries are. One can imagine that mainland china has people suffering abject poverty -- probably their numbers are in the millions.


I think the map shows the benefit of living in an area that was not developed until less that 300 years ago, compared to regions where people have lived for thousands of years. Also, the only place as fortunate in its combination of resources is Russia, but Russia has always had a problem developing technology, long before the communist. Its climate is a serious draw back compared to the climate enjoyed in the United States. In a few more years, that map is apt to radically change, because the US has exhausted many of its resources and is now an importing more than it exports nation. Fracking has extended our time for enjoying wealth, and it is limited. All industrial economies depend on oil and when we exhaust our supply of oil, all industrial economies will collapse.

The big lie is that our wealth is the result of capitalism when it is the result of resources.

https://www.dartmouth.edu/~dirwin/docs/Surge3wp.pdf

The United States became a net exporter of manufactured goods around 1910 after a dramatic
surge in iron and steel exports began in the mid-1890s. This paper argues that natural resource
abundance fueled the expansion of iron and steel exports in part by enabling a sharp reduction in
the price of U.S. exports relative to other competitors. The commercial exploitation of the
Mesabi iron ore range, for example, reduced domestic ore prices by 50 percent in the mid-1890s
and was equivalent to over a decade’s worth of industry productivity improvement in its effect
on iron and steel export prices. The non-tradability of American ore resulted in its distinctive
impact on the pattern of U.S. trade. The results are consistent with Wright’s (1990) finding that
U.S. manufactured exports were natural resource intensive at this time.


This link does not paint a good picture of our great capitalist economy. If it were not for our past wealth, we would not be red on the map and our present economy is not sustainable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_t ... ted_States
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Athena on September 3rd, 2017, 12:54 pm 

Mossling » July 30th, 2017, 8:25 pm wrote:I think many people here are conflating Capitalism with greed, and in that case it doesn't really matter what socioeconomic model or political strategy is employed - greed will find a way to flourish if it is not tackled as a specific problem.

More 'greed studies' are apparently necessary - how economic 'arms races' of sorts can appear - 'keeping up with the Joneses' and so forth. And of course how it relates socioeconomically to the ever-advancing military industrial situation, which is difficult to curb since there are very real threats in the world that need to be kept at bay.

People are debating democracy here, but as we arrived at on the 'Barbarity of the Enlightenment' thread - the ultimate 'votes' come from bullets and bombs.

The military has the biggest 'democratic' power because whoever leads it successfully is 'right' in terms of what their vision of a society should be - 'right' in a sense beyond philosophical sophistry, just 'right' economically; physically and thus empirically.

The more 'peaceful' democracy is then built on top of this truth it seems. Thus, it all comes down to the interplay between greed and military organisation - who the military leaders are (and 'would be') and who is being competed with.

As I've mentioned already on this thread, competition within markets is normal, natural, and takes place within and around the sociopolitical dynamics of greed and military governance.

Never mind capitalism - what about economic 'arms races'? This is the source of the real 'toxic competition', it seems. The idea that one needs a bigger and better car/aircraft carrier than one's neighbors - be it domestic or international.

Until universal global human ethics - that appeal to rational nervous systems in general, rather than merely a 'Gods chosen people' - are powerful and tangible enough to bridge the perceived 'yuge' gaps between neighboring cultures, the greedy 'arms races' ain't gonna be curbed.


How about a very boring look at the numbers of people and the resources required to support this mass of people? A good economy is about more than a good idea. Gold and silver boom towns had super great economies before they became ghost towns. Isn't that terrible self-government? We are not dealing with the facts required to understand our reality, nor the reality around the world and our place in it. Like how much land/housing is needed to support the low-income workers to are supporting all businesses? How can intelligent people think they have good city planning without taking into consideration the housing needs of the disabled and low-income workers?

I don't know how many people live from month to month on a pay check, I just know when the economy collapses they are up a creek without a paddle, and these periods of hard times can ruin the future of those who lose everything. Capitalism works for those who can own, not those who depend on monthly pay checks. Capitalism is supported by the low paid worker, and the low paid worker is exploited once again by the property owners from whom the low paid worker must rent. I think only those with no knowledge of history can think this is a good thing, without the government stepping in the level the playing field.

Democracy is about government stepping to level the playing field. Democracy is government for the people, of the people, and by the people and that needs to be a shared control of resources. Minerals in the ground should be considered a shared resource. A car factory is built by a person who owns it. However, how the factory is managed can be autocratic or democratic. How can those who love democracy, support autocratic industry? Why do we not call those who are autocratic traders to our democracy?
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby _A_ on September 4th, 2017, 6:02 am 

How about a very boring look at the numbers of people and the resources required to support this mass of people? A good economy is about more than a good idea. Gold and silver boom towns had super great economies before they became ghost towns. Isn't that terrible self-government? We are not dealing with the facts required to understand our reality, nor the reality around the world and our place in it. Like how much land/housing is needed to support the low-income workers to are supporting all businesses? How can intelligent people think they have good city planning without taking into consideration the housing needs of the disabled and low-income workers?

I don't know how many people live from month to month on a pay check, I just know when the economy collapses they are up a creek without a paddle, and these periods of hard times can ruin the future of those who lose everything. Capitalism works for those who can own, not those who depend on monthly pay checks. Capitalism is supported by the low paid worker, and the low paid worker is exploited once again by the property owners from whom the low paid worker must rent. I think only those with no knowledge of history can think this is a good thing, without the government stepping in the level the playing field.

Democracy is about government stepping to level the playing field. Democracy is government for the people, of the people, and by the people and that needs to be a shared control of resources. Minerals in the ground should be considered a shared resource. A car factory is built by a person who owns it. However, how the factory is managed can be autocratic or democratic. How can those who love democracy, support autocratic industry? Why do we not call those who are autocratic traders to our democracy?

USA moved out of Capitalism and into Corporatism in the 19th and 20th Century. Corporations dominate, monopolize, influence, and control the daily lives of almost every citizen. Phone companies control communication. Cable companies control television and internet. Oil companies control gasoline. Health insurance and pharmaceutical companies control medical care. In almost every daily facet of life, large corporations have the power today. And most or all of those corporations have been mandated by the US government, along with laws to protect the controls.

The "free market" is largely a modern-day myth, harkening back to when there were few regulations during colonial periods and fewer laws to restrict trade between settlers or indians.

The problem with Democracy is that it shifts according to the whims, fads, and irrational emotions of the general populace, leading to instability and chaos. Markets and economics do not like chaos. Thus the market is regulated in order to reduce fluctuations of the dollar value. Banks, companies, corporations, the general populace does not want a currency that changes drastically from day-to-day or week-to-week. Hence the US government gives a large amount of power to banks, the federal reserve, and congress.

What remains of "Free Market Capitalism" today mostly refers and pertains to Wall Street and the stock market. People want to bet on "the next best thing". But as with the housing market crash, the tech bubble burst, and other economic calamities, society is uneasy about the ramifications of such gambling.

Capitalism and Democracy don't mix because average people don't understand economics, or have enough of an economic mindset to connect the causes and effects of Wall Street. Economic gambling, "Capitalism", allows for a small number of people to make huge amounts of money off of the rest of general society. Americans still embrace this ideal, this dream that "the underdog can get ahead", despite the fact that most Americans cannot, and will not, ever learn enough about economics and trading to make a difference.

What average-jane and average-joe could do, and should do, is learn enough financing and economic strategy to get by in daily life, on practical terms. How to save money. How to invest, and how not to.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby BadgerJelly on September 4th, 2017, 7:28 am 

Please ...

I am asking a specific question here. If you wish to focus on pointing out the things you have then supply a direction you see them veering toward in the future. That is the point of this thread.

Thanks :)
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Serpent on September 4th, 2017, 10:55 am 

An economic trend, such as you suggest, would be interesting to follow and project into the future, particularly as regards later-developing nations. India, which has shown extremely adaptable to the new - while paradoxically rooted in tradition - is an especially interesting arena for such observation.
But any prediction is made difficult by our catastrophic times. It's hard to see any way at all into the future of global communications and virtual currencies, because the more immediate and far more disruptive driver of change are climate and armed conflict. Ever increasing population movement, loss of domiciles, lands, livelihoods and lifestyles means that both political and economic agents are attempting to react to unexpected trouble, rather than devise strategies and make informed decisions. An ever-increasing amount of resources (real and physical wealth, not virtual and intellectual) must be allocated to border defence, crowd control, rescue and relief on an ever larger scale. Communication and energy grids are already under enormous strain in many parts of the world - we don't even know when they'll break down altogether.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Athena on September 4th, 2017, 1:57 pm 

_A_ » September 4th, 2017, 4:02 am wrote:
How about a very boring look at the numbers of people and the resources required to support this mass of people? A good economy is about more than a good idea. Gold and silver boom towns had super great economies before they became ghost towns. Isn't that terrible self-government? We are not dealing with the facts required to understand our reality, nor the reality around the world and our place in it. Like how much land/housing is needed to support the low-income workers to are supporting all businesses? How can intelligent people think they have good city planning without taking into consideration the housing needs of the disabled and low-income workers?

I don't know how many people live from month to month on a pay check, I just know when the economy collapses they are up a creek without a paddle, and these periods of hard times can ruin the future of those who lose everything. Capitalism works for those who can own, not those who depend on monthly pay checks. Capitalism is supported by the low paid worker, and the low paid worker is exploited once again by the property owners from whom the low paid worker must rent. I think only those with no knowledge of history can think this is a good thing, without the government stepping in the level the playing field.

Democracy is about government stepping to level the playing field. Democracy is government for the people, of the people, and by the people and that needs to be a shared control of resources. Minerals in the ground should be considered a shared resource. A car factory is built by a person who owns it. However, how the factory is managed can be autocratic or democratic. How can those who love democracy, support autocratic industry? Why do we not call those who are autocratic traders to our democracy?

USA moved out of Capitalism and into Corporatism in the 19th and 20th Century. Corporations dominate, monopolize, influence, and control the daily lives of almost every citizen. Phone companies control communication. Cable companies control television and internet. Oil companies control gasoline. Health insurance and pharmaceutical companies control medical care. In almost every daily facet of life, large corporations have the power today. And most or all of those corporations have been mandated by the US government, along with laws to protect the controls.

The "free market" is largely a modern-day myth, harkening back to when there were few regulations during colonial periods and fewer laws to restrict trade between settlers or indians.

The problem with Democracy is that it shifts according to the whims, fads, and irrational emotions of the general populace, leading to instability and chaos. Markets and economics do not like chaos. Thus the market is regulated in order to reduce fluctuations of the dollar value. Banks, companies, corporations, the general populace does not want a currency that changes drastically from day-to-day or week-to-week. Hence the US government gives a large amount of power to banks, the federal reserve, and congress.

What remains of "Free Market Capitalism" today mostly refers and pertains to Wall Street and the stock market. People want to bet on "the next best thing". But as with the housing market crash, the tech bubble burst, and other economic calamities, society is uneasy about the ramifications of such gambling.

Capitalism and Democracy don't mix because average people don't understand economics, or have enough of an economic mindset to connect the causes and effects of Wall Street. Economic gambling, "Capitalism", allows for a small number of people to make huge amounts of money off of the rest of general society. Americans still embrace this ideal, this dream that "the underdog can get ahead", despite the fact that most Americans cannot, and will not, ever learn enough about economics and trading to make a difference.

What average-jane and average-joe could do, and should do, is learn enough financing and economic strategy to get by in daily life, on practical terms. How to save money. How to invest, and how not to.


Please say more! Every child should learn wealth is built on what we own, and there not enough hours in the day, nor enough energy in a day, to become wealthy by labor alone. The great wealth some enjoy today comes from the exploiting the people who may never realize enough money to even buy a home, and who if they do manage to buy a home, could lose it because of medical expenses or failure to have adequate insurance.

I wish every high school student had to do a budget for a person earning minimum wage and having two children to support. Not just figure out how to budget this income, but also list everything that does not fit into this budget, such as health insurance, child care, owning a home.... only when our young have a good understanding of economics on this personal level, can have a good foundation for personal choices and voting what is good for the country. Only when they understand such matters, can they be the responsible nation they need to be, in a nation that influences the whole world.

You say we need to understand the importance of saving, what does your budget for a minimum wage worker look like? What is your position on a poor nation nationally its resources such as oil and diamonds?
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Athena on September 4th, 2017, 2:24 pm 

BadgerJelly » September 4th, 2017, 5:28 am wrote:Please ...

I am asking a specific question here. If you wish to focus on pointing out the things you have then supply a direction you see them veering toward in the future. That is the point of this thread.

Thanks :)


Didn't A do a good job of that? The colonist came to a land of abundance with no established power over them, and they enjoyed truly free equal opportunity to own land and develop it as they saw fit. When this freedom was lost in the east, they moved west into a frontier that still gave them equal opportunity. Today all the land and resources are owned and only those with established wealth have a chance of competing for more wealth. When land is dirt cheap, the poor have a chance of being property owners and building wealth from there. That is no longer true as we have too many people and not enough land. And our laws are protecting the property owner and corporate interest, not the little guy because it is the money people who can afford to get the laws they want. This is a return to the 1400th century before the development of democracy.

I am afraid we may not have the information to carry on the discussion you want? As the rich of old could avoid taxes and controlled the government and economic decisions, protecting their accumulation of wealth from the swine who threaten to ruin the economic structure that gave them wealth and privilege. So it is today. As the poor once had no power they have none today. But our democracy has values that could make a difference, if we were working with the facts we need to do better. What are the facts you like to use?
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Athena on September 4th, 2017, 2:44 pm 

Serpent » September 4th, 2017, 8:55 am wrote:An economic trend, such as you suggest, would be interesting to follow and project into the future, particularly as regards later-developing nations. India, which has shown extremely adaptable to the new - while paradoxically rooted in tradition - is an especially interesting arena for such observation.
But any prediction is made difficult by our catastrophic times. It's hard to see any way at all into the future of global communications and virtual currencies, because the more immediate and far more disruptive driver of change are climate and armed conflict. Ever increasing population movement, loss of domiciles, lands, livelihoods and lifestyles means that both political and economic agents are attempting to react to unexpected trouble, rather than devise strategies and make informed decisions. An ever-increasing amount of resources (real and physical wealth, not virtual and intellectual) must be allocated to border defence, crowd control, rescue and relief on an ever larger scale. Communication and energy grids are already under enormous strain in many parts of the world - we don't even know when they'll break down altogether.



All virtual wealth will disappear without the resources to support this technology. If we are to understand the "Distiny of Nations" we must understand the global distribution of natural resources, and where to place our military forces to defend our economic interest. The violent clashes are not happening willy nilly. They are happening because of over population and intense competition for limited resources, coupled with ignoring how people are affected when their home land is exploited by foreigners. I think the source of the problem is less chaotic than you have said. For years we have known there are not enough resources for the whole world to enjoy the standard of living of the US, and free global trade ignoring this reality is insane! We can add to that our way of life has lead to global warming and this brings on natural disasters, and we elect a president who denies this science?! What ignorance and this ignorance comes out of a nation that spends billions on public education.

A moral is a matter of cause and effect, and we have dropped awareness of this, leaving moral training to the church, destroying our moral judgment and insisting the bottom line is the dollar. That is extremely short sighted!
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby mitchellmckain on September 4th, 2017, 3:32 pm 

I don't really get this thread.

Seems to me the question is whether a person gets to keep what they work to create, or whether those willing to do violence are free to take what they can? Isn't the former the building block of human civilization? Modern society is founded upon unlocking the creative potential of people and all the darkness of the past derives from squandering and stomping on this potential. The latter has been defeated by the simple fact that when you do things that way then EVERYONE LOSES.

This was the lesson we have from the great communist experiment. If people don't get to keep what they work to create then they have no reason to create anything. The lesson from Zimbabwe is crystal clear, the only result you can expect from taking property from those who know what do do with it and redistributing it to everyone else is STARVATION!

Frankly I think this criticism of capitalism is a red herring distracting us from the fact that not all the distribution of wealth has come about from this perfectly natural system by which people keep what they have made. You don't have to dig very far into the past when you find at that much of the wealth and privileges people have had actually originate in people taking what they want by force. Anyone familiar with the attitudes of Victorian and Regency England, when the idea of being in trade or working for a living was looked down upon with contempt? Where did they get their wealth, eh?

Thus the so called rise of capitalism is also the decline of pillaging, slavery, imperialism, and feudal classicism.

But while this is the basic reality, rhetoric can be carried too far especially when reinforced with bogus ideas like social Darwinism, which frankly makes no distinction between capitalism and pillaging. So when examining the question of equal opportunity, the origins of present social classes in violence and robbery as well as from ingenuity should be remembered.

Another option is to single out particular practices in modern day capitalism such as found in the stock markets and corporations, for you will get no argument from me that there is much to criticize there.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Serpent on September 4th, 2017, 5:48 pm 

Athena » September 4th, 2017, 1:44 pm wrote: I think the source of the problem is less chaotic than you have said. For years we have known there are not enough resources for the whole world to enjoy the standard of living of the US, and free global trade ignoring this reality is insane! We can add to that our way of life has lead to global warming and this brings on natural disasters, and we elect a president who denies this science?!

It's not just natural disasters - extreme weather events that are more widespread, more intense, more frequent and less predictable every year - but also the resulting political destabilization and how the weather events, such as drought, land depletion, crop failure, etc. factor into the ethnic conflicts, social unrest and military responses. Watch this documentary http://theageofconsequences.com/
The US Defense Department knows, but the administration is still in denial... and the long-term fallout can't even begin to be reckoned, because we don't know how much water will be contaminated by known and secret toxic waste dumps, or how unprepared the epidemiology units are to deal with the resulting diseases.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby _A_ on September 5th, 2017, 2:17 am 

Please say more! Every child should learn wealth is built on what we own, and there not enough hours in the day, nor enough energy in a day, to become wealthy by labor alone. The great wealth some enjoy today comes from the exploiting the people who may never realize enough money to even buy a home, and who if they do manage to buy a home, could lose it because of medical expenses or failure to have adequate insurance.

Even from the onset of colonization of the Americas, there has always been amassed wealth leveraging certain projects for certain groups of people, namely, the English-Anglican colonialists. At first they had the backing of the English crown and nobility. People today in the US seem to forget this. The British Empire had a significant portion of the world's wealth, which, moved over across the Atlantic over time. Thus the US economy is intrinsically tied into the British Commonwealth even today. Post-WWII the banking and economic systems across the world changed. Formally, before WWII, Netherlands, Denmark, Austria, were considered the safest places in the world for banks and investments. WWII changed all that, and it is a nuance not covered in modern parlance or education.

For you, Athena, I will say a lot more.


I wish every high school student had to do a budget for a person earning minimum wage and having two children to support. Not just figure out how to budget this income, but also list everything that does not fit into this budget, such as health insurance, child care, owning a home.... only when our young have a good understanding of economics on this personal level, can have a good foundation for personal choices and voting what is good for the country. Only when they understand such matters, can they be the responsible nation they need to be, in a nation that influences the whole world.

You say we need to understand the importance of saving, what does your budget for a minimum wage worker look like? What is your position on a poor nation nationally its resources such as oil and diamonds?

That's exactly the point. The average US citizen and consumer cannot afford the modern lifestyle, for the most part, especially not insurance, which has been up for debate this most recent decade. Obviously, a single-parent cannot support a child, and hardly him/herself, on a minimum wage. Add in disease, medical bills, tuition, credit cards, and the picture is bleak. Many US citizens and the population has been preyed upon, by the "top 1%".

So the topics of socialism, capitalism, and democracy are changing, exponentially so as the middle class is stretched into oblivion, and US becomes a nation of "have versus have-nots".

There are no easy answers. I predict, however, that democracy will slid and fall into socialistic tendencies, a welfare state. And this isn't necessarily good. In most ways it's bad. Because money comes from somewhere. Debts are not absolved magically. The most critical thing the US society and population needs to do, now more than ever, is balance the federal budget. Without that, and without confronting the US debt, people really don't have a future.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby BadgerJelly on September 5th, 2017, 6:20 am 

To all -

What this thread is about is looking at the driving force of economics. Basically this means "RESOURCES", be they intellectual, material or informational.

Today it is quite, quite clear to me that the internet has played a HUGE role in the economy and we've been propelled, willingly or not, toward a more global view of not just economics, but also politics, religion and even language and culture too.

It is obviously complex and I am trying to focus on the complexity of economics in reference to these factors. In the past we've seen technological changes alter how economics functions. I am pretty sure we are living right in the middle of such an upheaval, maybe a bigger one, than the industrial revolution. Remember this effected human culture in a very broad way, trickling into education systems and politics as well as ...

Anyway, I am not here to discuss the state of the US or any country specifically. I am looking at the global change happening now. Of course I am assuming WWIII doesn't break out or that we don't slip into an ice age or some other climatic catastrophe before the "change" comes.

What I am noticing is how "cyberspace" is playing an obvious role in this. Cryptocurrencies is one factor that seems beyond the control of governments and banks, much like "e-mail" is not going away neither are cryptocurrencies ... then I find myself thinking what other systems will bleed into cyberspace and what affect will this have on the economy? Advertising and political propaganda are two obvious repercussions that are having a larger and larger global impact.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Serpent on September 5th, 2017, 10:23 am 

BadgerJelly » September 5th, 2017, 5:20 am wrote:What this thread is about is looking at the driving force of economics. Basically this means "RESOURCES", be they intellectual, material or informational.

But those categories operate in different realms, on different scales, controlled - if they are controlled at all - by different agencies. I don't see how you can inspect them as a bundle: you need to follow each separate thread.

More later - thunderstorm approaching; must turn off internet.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Athena on September 5th, 2017, 10:34 am 

BadgerJelly » September 5th, 2017, 4:20 am wrote:To all -

What this thread is about is looking at the driving force of economics. Basically this means "RESOURCES", be they intellectual, material or informational.

Today it is quite, quite clear to me that the internet has played a HUGE role in the economy and we've been propelled, willingly or not, toward a more global view of not just economics, but also politics, religion and even language and culture too.

It is obviously complex and I am trying to focus on the complexity of economics in reference to these factors. In the past we've seen technological changes alter how economics functions. I am pretty sure we are living right in the middle of such an upheaval, maybe a bigger one, than the industrial revolution. Remember this effected human culture in a very broad way, trickling into education systems and politics as well as ...

Anyway, I am not here to discuss the state of the US or any country specifically. I am looking at the global change happening now. Of course I am assuming WWIII doesn't break out or that we don't slip into an ice age or some other climatic catastrophe before the "change" comes.

What I am noticing is how "cyberspace" is playing an obvious role in this. Cryptocurrencies is one factor that seems beyond the control of governments and banks, much like "e-mail" is not going away neither are cryptocurrencies ... then I find myself thinking what other systems will bleed into cyberspace and what affect will this have on the economy? Advertising and political propaganda are two obvious repercussions that are having a larger and larger global impact.


Okay, you would love what Milton Friedman said about how technology is changing the global economy.

Milton Friedman was an American economist who received the 1976 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences for his research on consumption analysis, monetary history and theory, and the complexity of stabilization policy. Wikipedia


Small Asian countries that never were big game players are now in the global economic game. They have pushed rapid computer literacy, moving their cultures from ones that changed very slowly to ones that have taken a huge leap into the technological world, with no time to adjust to this huge change.

This google page is full of information about technology and economics.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CH ... 7lEvhia5H4

There are several books written by other authors

https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/te ... nd-society

I have some older books such as Alvin Toffler's 1971 "Future Shock" and Victor C. Ferkiss's 1969 "Technological Man: The Myth and the Reality". Keeping in mind in 1958 we passed the National Defense Education Act that replaced our liberal education and preparing our young for good citizenship, with education for technology and preparing young for a technological society with unknown values. The social, economic and political ramifications of this change in education are huge! Anyway, I always thought this would be an excellent subject to discuss, but it is huge and you may want to narrow down even further.

On the other hand, I have a problem with this narrow subject unless it also goes with awareness of what mineral resources have to do with national wealth and power and where we place our troops. Remember the USSR had an ongoing war with Afghanistan, when Reagan was in office and we gave Bin Laden weapons and trained his people to use them, so they could get the USSR out of Afghanistan. Now we have standing troops in Afghanistan and say this is to fight terrorism. Really? It terrorist are the problem, why didn't let the USSR continue to subdue it? Oh, do you want to discuss what technology has to do with military changes and what we are doing on the other side of the world? How about the Afghanistan mineral resource that the everyone would to love have and what this has to do with Russian and US relationships? Sorry, I get crazy. Instead of the word "resources", if you stick with the word "technology", I can stay on your topic and not get hysterical about world competition for mineral resources and what that has to do with what we are paying for a very expensive high tech military force, and our ignorance that makes us easy to mislead with lies.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Serpent on September 5th, 2017, 8:18 pm 

BadgerJelly --
Of course I am assuming WWIII doesn't break out or that we don't slip into an ice age or some other climatic catastrophe before the "change" comes.

There is no "of course" about either of those things holding off long enough to let a gradual shift in economic relations take hold.

One obstacle to projecting how things will unravel is the necessity of diverting real/physical resources - materials, energy, manpower, military vehicles and troops - into security, rescue and repair, so we don't know how much each government will be able to invest in infrastructure. That means, a lot of communications are going to break down and leave gaps in the global system.
Another aspect of that problem is increasing hostilities; more governments under stress; more nations sliding toward, or into, totalitarian regimes that promise protection, even if they can't deliver.

What I am noticing is how "cyberspace" is playing an obvious role in this. Cryptocurrencies is one factor that seems beyond the control of governments and banks, much like "e-mail" is not going away neither are cryptocurrencies ...

I wouldn't count on that, either. An effect of the above-mentioned slide toward authoritarian governments will be attempts by governments to control cyber-traffic. Expect more regulation, more policing, more data-collection and intimidation. That will put, at the very least, a damper on international commerce.

Advertising and political propaganda are two obvious repercussions that are having a larger and larger global impact.

Spying and recruiting are already big. Lots of code-breaking and virus-making; secret-leaking and patent-infringement, as well as embezzlement and extortion. Expect increasing aggression in cyberspace, just as it is on the ground.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby BadgerJelly on September 5th, 2017, 9:02 pm 

Athena -

I will hopefully remember to look at him in the future (no doubt I'll stumble across him again at some point).

To all -

I am being very particular about the term "RESOURCES" here. We are all aware of the burden of material resources, I am talking about the resources in our heads and the explosion of communications and information on a global scale.

Yes, certainly technology has driven economic models along. I guess what I am getting at is that it seems like the industrial state idea is faltering due to global communications.

On a cognitive level, as a whole, humanity has reached a physical limitation. By this I mean humans once lived in a finite world, which meant it was enclosed and limited. Then we stepped up and out of our "finite" world and discovered other tribes, other lands, the world "finite" limit gave us a swath of imagined possibilities where mythical beasts roamed and on maps we marked "ere be monsters!"

We have surpassed this limited finite world and discovered a whole new level. Yet, there are many on this earth who are in the dark, and these are being dragged into this scary and infinite world. The physical limitation of humanity has led to the "mythos" to enter into a new space of finite freedom. This space I am proposing is cyberspace.

What I find extremely intriguing is how the realization of our immediate physical limitation seems to have gone hand in hand with population growth. As the Earthly horizons draw in on us and the physical world becomes more close, and immediately available, to more and more people, there seems to be the perpetual need to create new areas to explore, new lands to explore. Given that we're generally able to understand our planet as a planet, we now move into the intellectual space, explore the cognitive space, and by doing so take "Earthly" possessions with us. Physical money now takes on its true form, in the non-physical world (cryptocurrencies) and as global markets compete and expand corporations surpass mere national borders, there is more and more non-physical defined space. Now we here things mentioned like "intellectual capital" and "intellectual property", all coming about because of the freedom of movement in cyberspace, a "space" where there are always maps with "ere be monsters", there are areas left uncharted.

As for "material resources" I think it is just this that has produced the rigid border states (nations) of todays world. They are not real in any sense other than through the laws they adhere to. I would even claim that further into the future maybe the very idea of "law" will be applied by a distribution of choice. Meaning people will effectively be able to CHOOSE their system of law and be judged by it ... more of a far flung idea there though that is so complex I am not going to get into such a remote and distant possible future like that!

I'll leave it there for now, but there is a point I mentioned in a previous post here I wish to come back to regarding how capital state has followed the pattern of sailing into territories marked "ere be monsters" and has begun to see the edge of its own map.

Serpent -

Just read your post. I'll be brief ... cryptocurrencies will not be stopped. They are already here and the banks can do nothing. In North Korea they don't allow access to the net without direct governmental permission. The rest of the world is FAR beyond such an authoritarian regime and I cannot fathom how it is possible we could slip into such a regime. So I completely disagree on that point due to it's seeming improbability. The only singular factor I imagine being an issue is quantum computing. If there was a huge leap in computing (which is generally not the way computing tends to progress) then I could imagine that there would be some attempt to inhibit use of the internet.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Athena on September 6th, 2017, 1:07 pm 

This blog mentions some concerns with crypto currencies that I think we should take into consideration. Here are reasons for governments to start regulating crypto currencies and China can impose regulations much faster than the US.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bitcoin-ether-and-other-cryptocurrencies-may-be-seeing-the-beginning-of-the-end-2017-09-06
Sure, cryptocurrencies could be used by all sorts of lovely people for all sorts of lovely things. But shadow, unregulated currencies can also be used by say, tax evaders, drug dealers, money launderers and other criminals.

Oh, yeah, and terrorists. Who’d a thought it?

You see, after 9/11 there was a massive international crackdown of financial regulation around the world, including intense pressure on jurisdictions which had previously turned a blind eye to shadow finance and money laundering.


I want to add, Zetreque has made an excellent suggestion for a new forum section, in the thread about starting a geology forum in feed back. This thread is not exactly political theory, and people interested in what is being said may not enter a political theory forum but would jump into a discussion about economics of technological developments. I may a bit anal about proper labeling but it does help people find what they are looking for. Check out Zetreques recommendation in feed back and give us your thoughts.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby BadgerJelly on September 6th, 2017, 8:16 pm 

Athena -

Of course, people will always abuse any system. The thing is NO ONE can stop cryptocurrencies now.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Serpent on September 6th, 2017, 11:08 pm 

BadgerJelly » September 6th, 2017, 7:16 pm wrote:Athena -

Of course, people will always abuse any system. The thing is NO ONE can stop cryptocurrencies now.

Okay. What will they do? How will that interact with cyber-crime, regulation of other kinds of internet activity, intelligence gathering and the rise and fall of economies?
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby BadgerJelly on September 7th, 2017, 12:13 am 

Serpent » September 7th, 2017, 11:08 am wrote:
BadgerJelly » September 6th, 2017, 7:16 pm wrote:Athena -

Of course, people will always abuse any system. The thing is NO ONE can stop cryptocurrencies now.

Okay. What will they do? How will that interact with cyber-crime, regulation of other kinds of internet activity, intelligence gathering and the rise and fall of economies?


Those are the kind of questions I am asking predictions about. Especially the shape of capitalism in the future or what will supplant it.

I have read a tiny bit about anarcho-capitialism, I guess something in that kind of guise may be a vague blueprint when considering the impact of cryptocurrencies. In global terms we're already seeing the private sector have more of a political role.

Also, be sure I am not asking what you WISH to happen, only what things you see as being likely. From what you are insinuating above it would appear we'd be looking at a state system existing purely on the internet.See "Asgardia" for a general idea of what such a "non-bordered" state may look like.

We could even ask what it means for companies like Google to be "outside" of the state. In effect they exist as a multinational body. Meaning the company is required to adhere to the law of the land so it adheres to different laws under different circumstances.

Where I live facebook is "unofficially banned", but there is nothing the government can do to stop people using facebook. These kind of systems are in such high demand that people can, and will, find a way around any walls that the goivernments put up to regulate them.

I guess we could predict future authoritarian rule on a global scale. I just don't see it happening. We certainly see governments using fear to implement restrictive laws. They can only push so far before they are overwhelmed though.

I see the future economic system as being something that involves the common people more. At them moment we're aware of the effect of rich minorities imposing influence on government policy. We're seeing social media rampant with misinformation and confusion. Sensationalism rising to a whole new level. And people are not that stupid, but they assume others are, and ironically act stupidily because of this.

Anyway, what I mean is we're in an age where if I think X or Y is like this or that, I can go online and speak to them directly. As conflict increases the debate online reveals our own biases. This is where we are now.

And to look at all this with the economy in mind. What can we see happening? Economic laws and implementations are going to be bypassed. I think some form of anarchic economic system seems more than likely (for better or worse some "system" will grow from this, and I am not sure how capitialism will adjust, or if it really can?)

From the Gini Coefficient we can see that a huge problem for society is distribution of wealth. In light of the internet it may be much easier to distribute wealth through cryptocurrencies. The "comfortable" will sit idle as the technology becomes more and more accessible to the poverty stricken maybe?

I have not even mentioned education yet in all of this and intellectual commodity. There is also the "commodity" of state educational systems too, and future internet based learning systems. The wealth of information available to our finger tips is amazing. In less developed countries they see this benefit long before we do, we take it all for granted and rely on state institutions. Witht he growth of internet use across the world I would expect to see rising intellectual "wealth" across less developed countries as they go online (already happening really.)
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Serpent on September 7th, 2017, 4:33 pm 

BadgerJelly » September 6th, 2017, 11:13 pm wrote:[ the impact of cryptocurrencies.] In global terms we're already seeing the private sector have more of a political role.

More than what? When didn't concentration of wealth dictate state policy? When wealth was centered on farming, the owners of arable land made sure the rules favoured the landowner class. When merchants, traders and bankers rose to economic prominence, they gained influence over the governing bodies - or actually ruled over city-states. There was never, afaik, any clear division between wealth and power, public and private domain, in the structuring the societies or the making of laws.

Also, be sure I am not asking what you WISH to happen, only what things you see as being likely.

That's exactly why I can't see a clear line of prediction in the present conditions of global instability. I do not wish that, any more than I wish for the violent outcomes of inevitable confrontations, or the pathetic outcomes of catastrophic weather events. But they are likely.

From what you are insinuating above it would appear we'd be looking at a state system existing purely on the internet.

I don't get any of that. What did I insinuate, besides or beyond the factors I enumerated clearly?
I don't think I said anything about a state system existing on the internet, did I?


We could even ask what it means for companies like Google to be "outside" of the state. In effect they exist as a multinational body. Meaning the company is required to adhere to the law of the land so it adheres to different laws under different circumstances.

Now, that's an interesting question. I suppose there will be more changes in the regulations as different countries shift policy and attempt to control whatever they each perceive as a threat to themselves.

I guess we could predict future authoritarian rule on a global scale. I just don't see it happening.

Nor do I. Unfortunately, i see no global governance of any kinds in the near future. I see discrepancies growing into hostilities in adjacent nations; more instability and volatility in the movement of people, while the movement of goods - even vital food supplies - is bogged down red tape, theft, mismanagement and outright confiscation.

We certainly see governments using fear to implement restrictive laws. They can only push so far before they are overwhelmed though.

Overwhelmed by what? Civil disobedience? Protest and riots? Insurrection, terrorism and revolution? Civil war, ethnic war, border war, invasive war? All sorts, I think.

What can we see happening? Economic laws and implementations are going to be bypassed. I think some form of anarchic economic system seems more than likely (for better or worse some "system" will grow from this, and I am not sure how capitialism will adjust, or if it really can?)

That's another very good question. The answer does depend to a very large degree on a robust communications infrastructure. Somebody takes out half a dozen satellites, or a couple of big electric grids go dark, all bets are off.

In light of the internet it may be much easier to distribute wealth through cryptocurrencies. The "comfortable" will sit idle as the technology becomes more and more accessible to the poverty stricken maybe?

To some extent, that's happened. But that trend also depends to some [incalculable] degree on how much of the net wealth is within reach of small players to manipulate.

The wealth of information available to our finger tips is amazing. In less developed countries they see this benefit long before we do, we take it all for granted and rely on state institutions. Witht he growth of internet use across the world I would expect to see rising intellectual "wealth" across less developed countries as they go online (already happening really.)

Absolutely true. And very much to be desired. If only the people most affected can physically survive and make use of their new-gained access to knowledge.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby BadgerJelly on September 8th, 2017, 4:47 am 

Serpent -

Thanks for the reply to that scatter-shot post I made. I am simply trying to tease out different ideas about future economic models.

I believe in creative play in helping to develop, or simply notice, unexpected avenues that could direct the current economic climate.

Something that really intrigues me is the possible partial breakdown of fungibility due to non-material commodities. By this I mean how ideas (like cryptocurrencies) have almost free reign globally and that they gain a foothold so quickly that by the time we start to regulate and cope with them another "idea" is "out there" and coming to fruition. I cannot really see a ceiling to potential of the internet yet, and its only going to get bigger and better with the onset of quantum computing being brought into the public sphere (here is probably the only instance where we'll see state control of economics come back into play.)

My knowledge of economics is very poor over all. At the moment I am still feeling my way around. My intuition tells me the internet has not really had as much of an impact as it can, and I believe will, have in the coming few decades.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Serpent on September 8th, 2017, 9:59 am 

BadgerJelly » September 8th, 2017, 3:47 am wrote: My intuition tells me the internet has not really had as much of an impact as it can, and I believe will, have in the coming few decades.

It could. I mean, the limits of its potential are unknown at this point, perhaps incalculable. My own favourite future modeller is William Gibson, but for you - with the bigger, bolder, sunnier imagination - i might recommend Peter Hamilton. https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/peter-f-hamilton

Me, i just don't see any straight path through the coming decades. Internet commerce and communication depends so much on people and borders and goods and services being where you can find them again next week. Right this minute, Florida - the whole state of Florida!!- is one big mass of humanity and land and water in motion. We can't even know whether it will ever be habitable again. And there are places on earth that will no longer exist at all by next year, never mind next decade.
The internet, by itself, can't move food, shelter, medicine and people. If the food and houses are not there, the people won't be there, the internet is talking to itself. ...
(....which may be what it wanted all along?)
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby BadgerJelly on September 9th, 2017, 12:52 am 

Well, as a thought maybe we could be heading toward a "crisis defined" economy. If the climate starts shifting dramatically and people are uprooted then the economic model will have to adjust to such things.

My imagination can be equally dark ... I've had psychosis at both ends of the spectrum. I've seen heaven and hell. I just choose not to get overly caught up in either positive or negative procrastination. I just want to explore "possible" scenarios not just good or bad ones.

So by trying to speak strictly about capitalism I am taking in the global view not merely local views. By talking about "RESOURCES" in a more inclusive way I was trying to how items in society will cause social upheavel and direct our current systems.

To go back to opening paragraph, such crisis have an obvious economic effect. We can just accept the world will fall apart, but that seems like a cop-out to me, plus humans are just not inclined to accept defeat :)

As another scenario we can talk about the effect of global distasters on economics and communications.

Whether you have a sunnier or cloudier view of the future economics will change. Logistics are not really the same thing as economics, rather a facet of it. More disasters would mean more funding taken from military offense and defense into "state" climate defence and prevention (although it may well be "too late" in many respects and "state" borders will be more about online communication.)

Basically I cannot see a future system (be it sunnier or darker) where the idea of a rigid state system survives. I think it was a necessary blip in the hstory of humanity to cope with our existential crisis brought on by disengaging with the idea of "god"/"religion". I think I've expressed my view of patriotism before as being a bastardised version of a religious institution. I guess you can see why I look as this as a possibility.

By looking at these extremes I find it can be useful to see where we are now and fill in the gaps in between. So my view is that "national states" will fall away. For me it is then a question of how economic will or won't be effected by this and then see what likely first steps in that direction are likely to be. Maybe a completely different shift will happen prior to this and only by engaging in the hypothetical am I likely to unearth such an unpredicted shift.

note: don't really find fiction offers me what I want anymore. I would say Alan Moore is the most prominent person I do look to for sensilble social critique.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Serpent on September 9th, 2017, 10:22 am 

BadgerJelly » September 8th, 2017, 11:52 pm wrote:Well, as a thought maybe we could be heading toward a "crisis defined" economy. If the climate starts shifting dramatically and people are uprooted then the economic model will have to adjust to such things.

There is no "if" about that. The climate has changed and is changing. It won't stop until it finds a new equilibrium, and we don't know with any certainty what that new climate is like or whether it can sustain human life. Meanwhile, masses of humanity are already displaced; larger numbers will continue to be displaced. Sources of food and water are uncertain at best. The border and refugee and immigrant wars you're seeing now are not local. No economy is local anymore, and hasn't been since the 90's. Nobody is isolated or secure.

To go back to opening paragraph, such crisis have an obvious economic effect. We can just accept the world will fall apart, but that seems like a cop-out to me, plus humans are just not inclined to accept defeat :)

Denial hasn't worked for any civilization in decline or collapse. Throwing more babies off towers or launching more missiles or whatever they had been doing wrong, also hasn't worked.
Capitalism has worked better and better for fewer and fewer people; worse and worse for more and more - at some point, it breaks down. I don't know whether that point has been reached yet, or it will take another couple of years.
Technology has had interesting and profound effects on economics - both positive and negative - and would certainly continue to change the economic landscape.... if....
All i'm saying is, the way things are, we have very few solid predictors.

As another scenario we can talk about the effect of global distasters on economics and communications.

I thought I was.

The sunnier and darker comparison was merely of authors' visions. I mentioned Peter hamilton, because he has a vast and varied and interesting take on the future of science and cyber-science.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Serpent on September 9th, 2017, 11:07 pm 

To go back to opening paragraph, such crisis have an obvious economic effect. We can just accept the world will fall apart, but that seems like a cop-out to me, plus humans are just not inclined to accept defeat

A bit more thought on that fabled human resiliency.
It's quite a young species; there is no way to know how relatively resilient or adaptive it will prove in the next crisis, or the one after. Individual human specimens may be hardy or fragile in a number of different, complicated ways, as are human societies. Yes, the numbers have built up again after major catastrophes, but also, entire civilizations and cultures have disappeared altogether.

Certainly, economy follows circumstance. When the social organization breaks down - as it very frequently does - its economy inevitably breaks down. The survivors either have to adopt the economic model of their conquerors, or start over from sharing, looting or bartering basic necessities. Whichever happens, it happens on a local, very simple ground level.

So, when you think about a long-range forecast for an economy, I believe you need to follow the basic necessities - whether there is enough, scarcity or surplus; how they are created, owned, traded; how they move - how they can move - how the movement is controlled and by whom; what is essential, what is required, what is sought, what is valued.

It's too easy to become distracted by ephemera, like the "intrinsic" value of gold, or a trade in "intellectual capital".
Yes, gold may be valued by many cultures, but only after they've got enough tougher metals for tools and weapons, after they have established a stable social structure - and gold can be used as currency, precisely because it's a luxury, not required for mundane processes; it's just pretty.
Yes, knowledge has value to all cultures - but which kind of knowledge, when, and what is it traded for, at what rate of exchange?
Currencies can become abstract, arbitrary, entirely alienated from the creation of real value. The more abstract the currency being used, the harder it is to keep track of what's really going on: what value is actually traded, how much of it is realistically available for trade, where it originates and what its limits are.

After WWII, all the economies of Europe were in disarray, and several collapsed entirely. It was common to use a more homely currency, such as eggs or flour. For my personal tally, I like to evaluate things in similar terms. When you consider the survival capacity of any form of commerce, or any specific type of transaction, try to reduce it to something like that: beans, nails, bales of roof-thatching reed.... and where the fundamental goods come from, how readily available they are, etc. Ultimately every economy boils down to raw material, energy and manpower. Follow those to understand how an economy works. It will also be a reliable indicator of how long a model can be sustained.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Mossling on October 28th, 2017, 1:00 am 

I think the following videos say more about capitalism as a social force - the necessary sense of fair play during sophisticated economic interactions - than much of the discussion here has done:





No wonder Socrates dropped Natural Philosophy for virtue ethics ;P

Without a firm grasp and investment in and of long-term broad social cooperation advantages, humans descend to the level of lesser primates, and that isn't so great, well, because of things like this:



:/
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby hyksos on November 22nd, 2017, 10:04 am 

The capitalist apologists in this thread need to get their heads out of their asses and wake up to the patterns happening all around them.

1.)
The Trump administration (in coordination with Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnel) are going to gut the system of tax incentives normally enjoyed by graduate students. This is the first time in history that the tax code has been used as a weapon against what is perceived as political opponents drawn along party lines. In short, grad students are being punished because they overwhelmingly vote democrat. The Republicans are manipulating the tax code to punish their perceived enemies.

2.)
FCC is going to destroy net neutrality. Not a single giant internet company wants this, and nobody who uses the internet regularly wants it either. It is because Comcast and Verizon are the biggest lobbyists in the United States. There is only one bigger lobbyist than Comcast : Northrop Grumman (the defense contractor). Big rich powerbrokers own and manipulate the senate with their money and influence. This is the grossest and most blatant display of MONEY BUYING POWER that I have ever seen in my entire life.

3.)
The NRA is so powerful as a lobbyist that they have successfully fought against any kind of paperwork trail for gun purchase and ownership. This is not about confiscation or metropolitan city-limits bans on handguns. Anyone can still possess, but there will be paperwork showing it happened. USA can't even get that far. Why? Because NRA lobbying.

4.)
Direct-to-consumer advertising of pharmaceutical drugs on TV is completely reviled and totally illegal in the western world. Then why do you keep seeing them on TV? Because the United States and New Zealand are the only two countries in the world who allow DTC advertising. Why? Because the pharm industry has money-power influence over congress. THat's why.


Money-driven corruption and powerplays are happening all around you. AND YOU DARE come nancing around on this forum, to denigrate and discredit any criticizers of capitalism as "jealous monkeys wanting an apple too".
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby hyksos on November 22nd, 2017, 10:08 am 

Serpent » September 10th, 2017, 7:07 am wrote:After WWII, all the economies of Europe were in disarray, and several collapsed entirely. It was common to use a more homely currency, such as eggs or flour. For my personal tally, I like to evaluate things in similar terms. When you consider the survival capacity of any form of commerce, or any specific type of transaction, try to reduce it to something like that: beans, nails, bales of roof-thatching reed.... and where the fundamental goods come from, how readily available they are, etc. Ultimately every economy boils down to raw material, energy and manpower. Follow those to understand how an economy works. It will also be a reliable indicator of how long a model can be sustained.

Translation: "Nothing wrong capitalism.. because capitalism is just a simple bartering of goods. Like trading eggs and flour." Horsecrap. Get this apologetics crap out of this forum.
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