Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

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Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby mitchellmckain on February 14th, 2018, 6:00 pm 

Why would you remove all gun controls and let anybody purchase and carry concealed weapons?

Considering the mass shootings we have and increased threat of terrorism this sounds insane.

But what if we are being set up? What if some people want there to be even bigger mass shootings and bigger terrorist attacks? What if these are just the excuse needed for a greater abridgment of everybody's civil rights than what has already been done with the Patriot act?

How did a democratic country like Germany end up with armed militant groups pushing the agenda of a single party all over the country?

Will the next holocaust happen in the United States? Who will be exterminated this time? Gays? Black people? Liberals? Atheists?
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby wolfhnd on February 14th, 2018, 6:24 pm 

Probably deplorables
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby Serpent on February 14th, 2018, 7:43 pm 

mitchellmckain » February 14th, 2018, 5:00 pm wrote:Why would you remove all gun controls and let anybody purchase and carry concealed weapons?

Considering the mass shootings we have and increased threat of terrorism this sounds insane.

That's only because it's insane.
But what if we are being set up? What if some people want there to be even bigger mass shootings and bigger terrorist attacks? What if these are just the excuse needed for a greater abridgment of everybody's civil rights than what has already been done with the Patriot act?

Can't happen. Not because crazy people shoot random other people: there are too many kinds of crazyness and randomness to point fingers at. And too many of them are committed by right-wingers and religious nuts. If one of those mass shootings could be shown to have a political motivation and at least one shooting included the killing of a high-profile conservative senator [not under indictment for child molesting or human trafficking](obviously, the wounding of a liberal congresswoman is insignificant) - then, it might be considered terrorism.

How did a democratic country like Germany end up with armed militant groups pushing the agenda of a single party all over the country?

Not militant groups - just the one private army. I suppose white supremacists would be up for the part, but they're too undisciplined and - let's face it - stupid to trust with the job. Nor are they numerous enough to overcome the various other armed nut-clusters that might oppose them.
What side each city's police force (Those are some armed and dangerous cadres!)takes is not at all clear. The neo nazis can't win against the cops, let alone state militias.

Will the next holocaust happen in the United States? Who will be exterminated this time? Gays? Black people? Liberals? Atheists?

Black people have been under attack for 150 years. Some of them are able to hit back. Gays, communists, ditto. Atheists and liberals will just be collateral damage, to the extent that they come to aid of Muslims, Puerto Ricans, Haitians and Mexicans. I don't think they'll go meekly into the camps, either.

But the crux of the matter is where the national military brass stands. Some of them have taken the bribe of more money and more technological weapons research, more freedom from oversight and congressional control, while others are leery of the unreliable administration.

There are several ways this can go - none pretty.

PS - "deplorables" is an awfully mild pejorative for a minority that's slated for extermination. Surely some other groups have been called worse?
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby wolfhnd on February 14th, 2018, 8:58 pm 

I have been avoiding these discussion for a while because they don't seem productive but perhaps they are necessary.

The fact that Nazi Germany gets brought up but Mao's China and Stalin's Russia does not is indicative of some sort of cognitive dissonance. Certainly the police state that the Patriot act seems to be the first step in establishing bears resemblance to the kind of structures established in communist Russia and China. More relevant perhaps is that the Weimar Republic had strict gun control laws that did nothing to prevent Hitler from coming to power. In any case perhaps people are more reserved in their criticism of the communists because on paper at least the Soviet Union had a wonderful constitution. For people who have a preference for theory over evidence I suggest they read the Gulag Archipelago by historian Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.

In 2015 there were 772 drug overdose deaths among people aged 15 to 19.

In 2015, 2,333 teens in the United States ages 16–19 were killed and 221,313 were treated in emergency departments for injuries suffered in motor vehicle crashes. Distraction played a role in nearly six out of 10 teen crashes. 60 percent of teen drivers killed in a crash were not wearing a safety belt. Speeding is involved in 30 percent of fatal crashes involving teen drivers.

Suicide is the third leading cause of death among persons aged 10-14, the second among persons aged 15-34 years. More teenagers and young adults die from suicide than from cancer, heart disease, AIDS, birth defects, stroke, pneumonia, influenza, and chronic lung disease, combined.

I'm not trying to minimize the tragedy of school shootings or even suggesting that there are worse problems we should focus on. What I would suggest however is that unlike gun control the solutions to these other problems do not in all probability involve ignoring the rule of law. Ignoring the rule of law is the very thing that resulted among other problems in Solzhenitsyn needing to write a book describing the hidden cost of communism. To maintain the rule of law and republican principles the only way that gun regulation can be addressed is by a constitutional convention a fact the vast majority of people seem to want to ignore.

I'm sure that my European friends will be quick to point out that they have draconian gun laws and few school shootings. We have discussed this in depth elsewhere but I think it is only fair to point out that in most cases gun homicides were much lower in most European countries than in the US before extensive regulation so other sociological factors need to be examined. It is also probable that despite historical events that seem to contradict this observation the kind of Republic that the US has is more susceptible to government take overs than governments elsewhere in the world. In addition the US preserved the rights of the states after forming a Union in ways other nations did not influencing the relative need for local militias. The decision to maintain a week central government and state militaries undoubtedly contributed to the US civil war. That civil war may have negated the states rights issue to a large degree but it did nothing to address the overreach of the federal government two problems never addressed by constitutional convention. The most important point remains that the US has never and it was never intended that it have the kind of social fabric common in other nations. The US by design is a hodgepodge of ethnic and regional disparities. While those intentional disparities make it more likely that a disorderly social fabric will create conditions where disillusioned individuals will strike out randomly and violently because of nihilism and resentment it also makes it unlikely that someone like Hitler will ever come to power.

Just as in Nazi German those most likely to be victims of an authoritarian central government are those that seem to have power and oppose the righteous hegemony. The current propaganda paints the "deplorables" as somewhat like the Jews in Germany. Although no one seems to be able to show how these people are oppressing anyone they are painted by the elitist class as the source of everything wrong with society. The people that actually make life possible by providing most of the food, water, energy, transportation and housing in society have become the destroyers of worlds in the dystopian world view of the dominate Neo Marxist propagandists of the long march through the institutions. To those who scream conspiracy theory I would suggest individuals do not know anymore where there politics come from than a child his religion.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby Braininvat on February 14th, 2018, 9:27 pm 

Just so we're clear, Clinton did actually define who she meant were deplorable, expanding on her basket remark. She specified Americans who are "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic". I often encounter people who are one or more of those and do find them deplorable. Unless you include yourself in one of those specified groups, why would you be offended? Such bigoted people do oppress others and I don't think you need to be in an elite or a neo-Marxist to see that kind of treatment of people going on or speak out against it. Bigots ARE deplorable. I didn't much like Clinton, but I think she was correct in her assessment of bigotry in this country and its nasty effects. OK, carry on.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby wolfhnd on February 14th, 2018, 9:33 pm 

Braininvat » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:27 am wrote:Just so we're clear, Clinton did actually define who she meant were deplorable, expanding on her basket remark. She specified Americans who are "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic". I often encounter people who are one or more of those and do find them deplorable. Unless you include yourself in one of those specified groups, why would you be offended? Such bigoted people do oppress others and I don't think you need to be in an elite or a neo-Marxist to see that kind of treatment of people going on or speak out against it. Bigots ARE deplorable. I didn't much like Clinton, but I think she was correct in her assessment of bigotry in this country and its nasty effects. OK, carry on.


Oh you mean people like Jordan Peterson? The media propaganda machine is wrecking havoc.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby Serpent on February 14th, 2018, 10:02 pm 

wolfhnd » February 14th, 2018, 7:58 pm wrote:The fact that Nazi Germany gets brought up but Mao's China and Stalin's Russia does not is indicative of some sort of cognitive dissonance.

I don't think so. I think it's more indicative of what people know about and don't know about. Everybody's heard of Hitler; almost nobody in North America knows squat about Russia, or China, or the the history of anywhere else. This is why the speculation about the future of the USA is so often couched in the very simplistic terms of WWII movies (made in America), though the situations of 1935 Germany and 2018 America are very little alike. People see superficial similarities and know little or nothing of the underlying causes, motivations, aims, cast of characters or resources available.

Certainly the police state that the Patriot act seems to be the first step in establishing bears resemblance to the kind of structures established in communist Russia and China.

Not to mention Egypt, Haiti, Argentina, Algeria, Angola, Cambodia... Dictatorships come in all colours.

More relevant perhaps is that the Weimar Republic had strict gun control laws that did nothing to prevent Hitler from coming to power.

I don't consider that particularly relevant either. The American gun fetish makes everything messier, is all. Gun control would be helpful in diminishing the casualty rates of violent crime, gang warfare and the tantrums of madmen; it has little effect political conflicts.

I suggest they read the Gulag Archipelago by historian Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.

Or, really, anything by Salman Rushdie, Alan Paton, Mongo Beti, Octavio Paz, Haruki Murakami, VS Naipaul and Edward Said. Ya, that would be nice. So would decent public education.
Not gonna happen in the next three years!

I'm not trying to minimize the tragedy of school shootings or even suggesting that there are worse problems we should focus on.

The suicides, traffic carnage, drug OD's and many other accidents are symptoms of the same social maliase. Prioritizing them by number of deaths is unhelpful, especially if the society lacks the will to address any of these problems. Serial killers and mass shootings are just the tippy-top, the most dramatic expression, of a sick-berg that goes much deeper and wider.

Just as in Nazi German those most likely to be victims of an authoritarian central government are those that seem to have power and oppose the righteous hegemony. The current propaganda paints the "deplorables" as somewhat like the Jews in Germany.

I've heard that description of a loose temporary alliance of American types exactly once, in a political speech that was considerably less heated in its characterization of its opponents than its conservative counterpart was at the time. Has that word been applied since to a specific identifiable group? Has it been broadcast in any context outside of political supporters? If so, I would very much like to know by what media and by what method, and what the actual message was.
What does "somewhat like" mean? In what particulars are these stereotypes similar?
Do you truly, honestly believe that this is the most powerful prevailing propaganda in the US today?

Although no one seems to be able to show how these people are oppressing anyone they are painted by the elitist class as the source of everything wrong with society.

Who are the "elite class"?
If not the administration in power, the majority political party, the influential lobbies, the wealth-controlling corporations and bankers - then who?
To those who scream conspiracy theory I would suggest individuals do not know anymore where there politics come from than a child his religion.

And you would almost certainly be right. If anyone were screaming.
Me and mitchellmccain, we're just musing aloud.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby wolfhnd on February 14th, 2018, 10:26 pm 

There is a lot to go over but we have been there before.

The salient fact is that there is no gun control issue in the US, in relation to privately held guns there is only a constitutional issue for those who are interested in the rule of law. If you want gun "reform" hold a constitutional convention.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby wolfhnd on February 14th, 2018, 10:36 pm 

Who are the "elite class"?

You know the media, academia, the wall street people, Banksters, Holywood, the political class, the permanent state. All the people that tried to rig the last presidential election for Clinton. I know it's painful but at some point you have to admit that the revolutionaries of the 60s are now the establishment and they have blood on their hands.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby someguy1 on February 14th, 2018, 10:48 pm 

Braininvat » February 14th, 2018, 7:27 pm wrote:Just so we're clear, Clinton did actually define who she meant were deplorable, expanding on her basket remark.


It's pointless to try to defend her remark. It's not a matter of what she meant or whether or not it's true. I would be the first to agree that it's factually true that about half of Trump's supporters are deplorable.

That is not the point.

The point is being so politically inept as to insult your opponent's supporters.

What you should do is insult your opponent. If she said that Trump is deplorable, then some of his supporters might say, You know, she has a point. Maybe I'll vote for Hillary.

That's how politics works. Your aim is to peel off your opponents supporters, weaken their zeal.

But when you insult your opponent's supporters, they just dig in. You strengthen their zeal.

The deplorable remark has nothing to do with Trump's supporters, half of whom are most definitely deplorable.

The point is to illustrate Hillary's profound tone-deafness and political incompetence.

In other words one could concede the truth of everything you wrote ... and you'd still be wrong. The deplorables remark was about politics, not truth.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby mitchellmckain on February 14th, 2018, 11:05 pm 

wolfhnd » February 14th, 2018, 7:58 pm wrote:The fact that Nazi Germany gets brought up but Mao's China and Stalin's Russia does not is indicative of some sort of cognitive dissonance. Certainly the police state that the Patriot act seems to be the first step in establishing bears resemblance to the kind of structures established in communist Russia and China. More relevant perhaps is that the Weimar Republic had strict gun control laws that did nothing to prevent Hitler from coming to power. In any case perhaps people are more reserved in their criticism of the communists because on paper at least the Soviet Union had a wonderful constitution. For people who have a preference for theory over evidence I suggest they read the Gulag Archipelago by historian Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.

Don't be silly. I myself have brought up Mao's China and LENIN'S Russia numerous times. But context is entirely different. I bring up the communist examples mostly to show that atheists are in no way immune to perpetrating such atrocities. However, Nazi Germany is more applicable when trying to understand how a democratic country can unwittingly throw away their liberties. It is the greater puzzle, because if you want to know how China, Russia and all the other communist regimes went the way they did, all you have to do is read the book by Lenin, "What is to be Done," where the whole strategy is laid out quite clearly.

But what happened in Germany was COMPLETELY different. It was reactionary and that is where I see the real danger coming from in the US. The liberal elements in the US have absolutely no reason to follow either example. They have no reason for either violence or an attacking our civil rights. It is the reactionary republican lunacy which is most worrisome in this country. Any suggestion that Marxist-Leninists pose a threat in this country anymore is absurd.

wolfhnd » February 14th, 2018, 7:58 pm wrote:Just as in Nazi German those most likely to be victims of an authoritarian central government are those that seem to have power and oppose the righteous hegemony. The current propaganda paints the "deplorables" as somewhat like the Jews in Germany.

LOL LOL LOL This is bending so far over backwards you look like a pretzel. The people in power right now are the reactionary republicans. They have both houses of congress and the presidency.

Your bogus cry danger regarding "deplorables" is pure hypocrisy, since they are clearly defined as the only people who are going to carry out any extermination in the first place. The rest of us can be quite content with simply expressing our contempt and disapproval for them.

Furthermore it is precisely from such people which I have heard the arguments supporting an overthrow of American liberties. Apparently if they cannot force their authoritarian "moral" fetishes on everyone else they no longer want any liberty in this country. How does that argument go? If tolerance doesn't include a tolerance of racism and bigotry then it isn't logically consistent. But this rhetoric is total BS. It is only logical that tolerance does not support a tolerance of intolerance.


It is not that the liberals do not go overboard and display intolerance of their own. They most certainly do. I would be first to point this out. Both the gay rights movement and feminist movements have gone to some ludicrous extremes in pushing a very one sided agenda. I can support gay rights including gay marriage and adoption by gay couples but be still be called a homophobe just because I will not support their sacred unscientific belief in a prenatal determination of sexual preference. Likewise I can deplore all the inequities against women in previous eras but still be called a chauvinist for supporting the men's liberation movement as well.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby Serpent on February 14th, 2018, 11:22 pm 

wolfhnd » February 14th, 2018, 9:36 pm wrote:Who are the "elite class"?

You know the media, academia, the wall street people, Banksters, Holywood, the political class, the permanent state. All the people that tried to rig the last presidential election for Clinton.

That's not only a very big and very vague basket, but also a very difficult accusation to prove.
Will you make any attempt to prove it?

I know it's painful but at some point you have to admit that the revolutionaries of the 60s are now the establishment and they have blood on their hands.

It's not painful to me. The revolutionaries of the 60's - however unspecific they and their revolution may be - have been so diffused among the population that they cannot possibly be an establishment. Some, like Bill O'Reilly, turned conservative, some, like Buffy St Marie kept singing, some, like Harvey Milk, were murdered, some, like Jerry Rubin, became successful businessmen; some like Ralph Nader, kept on trying to do good. Most just grew up, got jobs, got married, got mortgages, paid their taxes and were never heard from again.

You simply cannot make a case for the people in power being the underdogs.

On the other hand, I don't consider DJ Trump even remotely representative of the main body of conservative thought. I don't consider him or his regime representative of any ideology or philosophy or political conviction. I think he's the diagnostic symptom of what's gone wrong in American political process.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby BadgerJelly on February 14th, 2018, 11:28 pm 

Funny thread title ... what's next? Hahaha!!
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby mitchellmckain on February 15th, 2018, 12:17 am 

Serpent » February 14th, 2018, 6:43 pm wrote:
But what if we are being set up? What if some people want there to be even bigger mass shootings and bigger terrorist attacks? What if these are just the excuse needed for a greater abridgment of everybody's civil rights than what has already been done with the Patriot act?

Can't happen. Not because crazy people shoot random other people: there are too many kinds of crazyness and randomness to point fingers at. And too many of them are committed by right-wingers and religious nuts. If one of those mass shootings could be shown to have a political motivation and at least one shooting included the killing of a high-profile conservative senator [not under indictment for child molesting or human trafficking](obviously, the wounding of a liberal congresswoman is insignificant) - then, it might be considered terrorism.

You are missing the point, which is that you don't need to actually carry out a "fundraiser" like in the film "Long Kiss Goodnight." Those indeed are too likely to backfire. But if you simply make it easier for these to happen by tearing down all the protections against them, then you don't need to do such things yourself. You just wait for some other numbskulls to play into your hands, and give you the excuses you need for your real objectives.

Serpent » February 14th, 2018, 6:43 pm wrote:What side each city's police force (Those are some armed and dangerous cadres!)takes is not at all clear. The neo nazis can't win against the cops, let alone state militias.

Right! If the cops are infiltrated by supporters then their opposition can be neutralized.

Serpent » February 14th, 2018, 6:43 pm wrote:
Will the next holocaust happen in the United States? Who will be exterminated this time? Gays? Black people? Liberals? Atheists?

Black people have been under attack for 150 years. Some of them are able to hit back. Gays, communists, ditto. Atheists and liberals will just be collateral damage, to the extent that they come to aid of Muslims, Puerto Ricans, Haitians and Mexicans. I don't think they'll go meekly into the camps, either.

Doesn't work. Violent opposition just becomes justification for greater violence against them. Frankly, the most likely collateral damage are a great many Christians like myself who will oppose them also. Of course, they'll just label me an atheist too, regardless of what I actually believe.

Serpent » February 14th, 2018, 6:43 pm wrote:But the crux of the matter is where the national military brass stands. Some of them have taken the bribe of more money and more technological weapons research, more freedom from oversight and congressional control, while others are leery of the unreliable administration.

There are several ways this can go - none pretty.

Indeed. An actual military coup is unlikely. There are much more sophisticated techniques for effectively achieving the same result these days.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby wolfhnd on February 15th, 2018, 12:46 am 

First of all Trump is a New York business Democrat by nature and a mild reformer not anything even remotely like Hitler. That he was demonized by the Media and every bastan of power is only evidence of how little meaning there is in the terms liberal and conservative today. The fact that Republicans are in control of the Presidency and congress has less to do with their actual popularity than that identity politics has backfired on the Democrats. More importantly in today's world it is really hard to tell the difference between a neo liberal and a neo con when it comes to policy. For decades every liberal policy that you can think of from Obama care, head start, welfare spending, and central government control has been implemented. The lack of results and the fact that large segments of the population had no political voice explains Trumps election more than some vague populalist notion. The republicans are in power not as a revolution to turn us into Nazi Germany but as a statement against the establishment which is mostly liberal or neo con. That is what happens when you have decades of failed policy, people turn away from the establishment.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby wolfhnd on February 15th, 2018, 1:19 am 

In conclusion, the world is in one of those periods when things are not what they appear to be and strange alliances dominate.

I find these discussions too stressful for me because I don't understand why what is obvious to me is incomprehensible to most people. All I can say is that I have been completely honest.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby Braininvat on February 15th, 2018, 11:20 am 

someguy1 » February 14th, 2018, 7:48 pm wrote:
Braininvat » February 14th, 2018, 7:27 pm wrote:Just so we're clear, Clinton did actually define who she meant were deplorable, expanding on her basket remark.


It's pointless to try to defend her remark. It's not a matter of what she meant or whether or not it's true. I would be the first to agree that it's factually true that about half of Trump's supporters are deplorable.

That is not the point.

The point is being so politically inept as to insult your opponent's supporters.



I think I was unclear. I was just agreeing with what she said, not approving its political acoustics. I was just pointing out that her "basket" had different contents from Wolf's. My basket, this morning, would include 2nd Amendment apologists and NRA twits, but that's a whole other thread. There is a strain of virulent stupidity in this country, combined with gullibility, that is far more likely to bring down the republic than a military coup.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby mitchellmckain on February 15th, 2018, 3:10 pm 

wolfhnd » February 14th, 2018, 11:46 pm wrote:First of all Trump is a New York business Democrat by nature and a mild reformer not anything even remotely like Hitler. That he was demonized by the Media and every bastan of power is only evidence of how little meaning there is in the terms liberal and conservative today. The fact that Republicans are in control of the Presidency and congress has less to do with their actual popularity than that identity politics has backfired on the Democrats. More importantly in today's world it is really hard to tell the difference between a neo liberal and a neo con when it comes to policy. For decades every liberal policy that you can think of from Obama care, head start, welfare spending, and central government control has been implemented. The lack of results and the fact that large segments of the population had no political voice explains Trumps election more than some vague populalist notion. The republicans are in power not as a revolution to turn us into Nazi Germany but as a statement against the establishment which is mostly liberal or neo con. That is what happens when you have decades of failed policy, people turn away from the establishment.


Sounds like Trump's silly claims of a conspiracy against him. I wonder what media you are trying to blame. Since I don't watch any of them, it can hardly explain my impressions since I don't watch any of them. My impressions comes from the man himself. But the funniest thing here is that what you have described is the epitome of the reactionary type movement I have been talking about from the OP. It only makes the comparison to Hitler that much better of a fit. People are dissatisfied with the way the freedoms of a democratic system will not let them force their subjective "moral" fetishes on others -- along with the rest of their racism and bigotry -- so they throw our liberties away. I quite agree this is what is happening. It doesn't make it any less deplorable.

Besides... this thread really wasn't about Trump at all, but about the insanity of removing all the protections we have against mass shootings and home grown terrorism. I have proposed that there is an agenda which would make sense of it.


As for the issue of centralized power and turning us into a country of paid voters... well I sympathize with your complaint. BUT I see even greater dishonesty and problems on the other side, which is just paying a different set of voters, frankly. If we could keep our nose out of the business of other countries and a stick to a more primitive lifestyle then decentralization might even work. But deregulation and throwing the crazies out on the streets is only causing more problems. So I don't think that rhetoric is going to work with me anymore.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby Serpent on February 15th, 2018, 5:41 pm 

mitchellmckain » February 14th, 2018, 11:17 pm wrote:You are missing the point, which is that you don't need to actually carry out a "fundraiser" like in the film "Long Kiss Goodnight." Those indeed are too likely to backfire. But if you simply make it easier for these to happen by tearing down all the protections against them, then you don't need to do such things yourself. You just wait for some other numbskulls to play into your hands, and give you the excuses you need for your real objectives.

What you haven't made clear is who - or what agency - is the "you" and what their objective is. I assumed from the OP that you meant the current administration using civil violence as an excuse to institute a police state. Now I don't know what you mean.
Certainly, numbskulls, incited by the leaders they respect, will continue to attack whomever those point out as enemies (I guess that's journalists and Harvard professors, this month. Maybe anyone who didn't applaud The Speech.) But those would be isolated incidents, treated locally as ordinary crime. Perhaps, in aggregate, such attacks would instill fear in opponents of the administration and eventually silence them.
But I don't see the "excuse" part. Civil liberties are daily eroding anyway - no government needs an excuse anymore; security forces already have unlimited power.
Remember when the Indian doctor was thrown off the plane? There were internet forum arguments along the lines of : He should have known better than to talk back to police! Americans don't believe in their own rights anymore - why should their government?

[What side each city's police force takes]

Right! If the cops are infiltrated by supporters then their opposition can be neutralized. [/quote]
I don't know that infiltration is effective with organized, armed forces. I may be wrong, but my impression is that cops pretty much take their cue from the commissioners and city councils. The disposition of the police force will probably match the - the character, if you like - of each city. I'm willing to make a small (very small) wager that new recruits who tried to sway their attitude would be made unwelcome.

Doesn't work. Violent opposition just becomes justification for greater violence against them.

Oh, i know that. Just saying that the precedent of German Jews or Japanese Americans is inapplicable this time around. There will be more violence, regardless of who the targeted minority is. There will be riots and bloodshed and burning and looting - and lots of collateral damage - whoever that turns out to be.

An actual military coup is unlikely.

Remote... but it may, in the end, be the only way to stop an ad-hoc civil war. It may be the union's last hope.

There are much more sophisticated techniques for effectively achieving the same result these days.

Again, I'm not sure what result is desired and by whom. I'm not sure there is any clear idea of who and what organizations are trying to achieve what. Trump doesn't have an agenda beyond making people adore him or making them sorry they didn't. He's not a political or ideological dictator - he's just a fat boy who's always dreamed of being king of the hill.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby mitchellmckain on February 16th, 2018, 2:22 am 

Serpent » February 15th, 2018, 4:41 pm wrote:
mitchellmckain » February 14th, 2018, 11:17 pm wrote:You are missing the point, which is that you don't need to actually carry out a "fundraiser" like in the film "Long Kiss Goodnight." Those indeed are too likely to backfire. But if you simply make it easier for these to happen by tearing down all the protections against them, then you don't need to do such things yourself. You just wait for some other numbskulls to play into your hands, and give you the excuses you need for your real objectives.

What you haven't made clear is who - or what agency - is the "you" and what their objective is. I assumed from the OP that you meant the current administration using civil violence as an excuse to institute a police state. Now I don't know what you mean.

I don't know who either. The point was that this was a possible motivation for what on the face of it seems utterly insane. As you suggested, it could indeed simply be insanity. But what if it isn't? Even if there are no conspirators except our own self-destructive tendencies, the possibility remains about where this might lead -- I would even say where it must inevitably lead. But then that very inevitability makes me suspicious.

Serpent » February 15th, 2018, 4:41 pm wrote:Civil liberties are daily eroding anyway - no government needs an excuse anymore; security forces already have unlimited power.

Yes, but some civil liberties need to be curtailed. We should no longer allow people to build whatever they want without regards to safety. We should no longer allow people to drive vehicles with excessive irresponsibility, either by driving under the influence or by texting on their phones. But when people are manufacturing events to justify the curtailment of our civil liberties then need for those restrictions are logically dubious.

Serpent » February 15th, 2018, 4:41 pm wrote:Remember when the Indian doctor was thrown off the plane? There were internet forum arguments along the lines of : He should have known better than to talk back to police! Americans don't believe in their own rights anymore - why should their government?

I don't believe in the liberty to irresponsibly risk the lives of other people. I don't believe in the liberty to act on irrational hatreds like racism and bigotry. I don't believe in the liberty to impose your own beliefs on other people when there is no objective justification for those beliefs. I certainly don't believe in the right of civilians to a maximum kill ratio with automated weapons.


Serpent » February 15th, 2018, 4:41 pm wrote:He's not a political or ideological dictator - he's just a fat boy who's always dreamed of being king of the hill.

Agreed. To me he looks like a lunatic and a clown. This thread was not about Trump.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby Serpent on February 16th, 2018, 11:44 am 

mitchellmckain » February 16th, 2018, 1:22 am wrote:I don't know who either.

That makes it very much harder to formulate a theory. Even for speculation, it's too vague.


The point was that this was a possible motivation for what on the face of it seems utterly insane.

It's a deeply flawed and emotionally unstable society. People are - have always been - required to believe at least two contradictory Truths at any given time. As the number and disparity of contradictions grow, people become crazier - or more cognitively dissonant, according to the fashionable parlance. They deal with it, or fail to deal with it, in a great variety of ways. Some will always act out, like children; some will always explode in violence; some will resort to chemical palliatives, some to escapist or wish-fulfilling entertainment, some seek validation among their peers, some seek power.... many become victims.

But what if it isn't? Even if there are no conspirators

But there always are conspiracies and conspirators. That's a fact of power politics and wealth-creation. Those who can see profit in other people's weakness and fear, in other people's confusion and suspicion, in the rivalries and antipathies, always do exploit those social rifts to their own advantage.
But how many of those exploiters are at work right now and what their specific long-term aims are, I don't know. Can't know. There is too much going on in that swamp; too murky to see.

the possibility remains about where this might lead -- I would even say where it must inevitably lead. But then that very inevitability makes me suspicious.

Like me, you've probably been suspicious from the day some unscrupulous adult substituted that horrible rubber bulb for your trusty, tasty thumb.
It does no good to look for motivation. Just keep your eye on the action. Try to anticipate one move ahead, is about the best you can do. ("Don't be where the blow lands")

[Civil liberties are daily eroding anyway - no government needs an excuse anymore; security forces already have unlimited power.]

Yes, but some civil liberties need to be curtailed. We should no longer allow people to build whatever they want without regards to safety. We should no longer allow people to drive vehicles with excessive irresponsibility, either by driving under the influence or by texting on their phones.

You know quite well that i wasn't talking about law. I was talking about government agencies, overt and secret, that are not bound by the law.

But when people are manufacturing events to justify the curtailment of our civil liberties then need for those restrictions are logically dubious.

You, as a nation, shouldn't be dubious about this. You should be outraged. Passive acceptance of official wrongdoing by the people is the road to dictatorship. If you're okay with the black SUV's carrying off random Arabs, you've already lost the democracy you-all are so proud of and insist on bringing to other countries.

[ Americans don't believe in their own rights anymore - why should their government? ]
I don't believe in the liberty to irresponsibly risk the lives of other people. I don't believe in the liberty to act on irrational hatreds like racism and bigotry. I don't believe in the liberty to impose your own beliefs on other people when there is no objective justification for those beliefs. I certainly don't believe in the right of civilians to a maximum kill ratio with automated weapons.

Do you believe in your right to carry any amount of ordnance to any public place, in compliance with half a sentence of one amendment to the constitution? Many self-professed conservatives do. I doubt any reason or balance can be restored to that argument. The only solution is to elect a congress that's willing to tackle the clause. I mean, revoke or re-word the second amendment for modern usage. Or else, conscript all the citizens with guns into a well-regulated militia.

This thread was not about Trump.

But that's who is in power; the only one in a position to carry out the plan you suggest.
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Re: Setting the stage for a military coup in the US

Postby Braininvat on February 16th, 2018, 1:20 pm 

You, as a nation, shouldn't be dubious about this. You should be outraged. Passive acceptance of official wrongdoing by the people is the road to dictatorship.


Bingo. That, and creating a Threat Group towards which the general rabble can direct all their discontents and grievances.
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