EU referendum

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Re: EU referendum

Postby Lomax on June 24th, 2016, 10:12 am 

BadgerJelly » June 24th, 2016, 3:11 pm wrote:At least it is democratic. I just wish one person had always meant one vote. If that was the case the UK would've had a lib dem government during the 90's.

In which election?
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Re: EU referendum

Postby ronjanec on June 24th, 2016, 10:25 am 

I am almost certain that the previous years, and this years still ongoing refugee/migrant crisis in Europe, and TPTB's completely inept and totally clueless handling of the same crisis, is the primary reason for Brexit: And this may very well cause the end of the Europeon Union in 2016(I warned about this way back in January in my thread "The End of the Europeon Union in 2016?")
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Watson on June 24th, 2016, 10:27 am 

It reminds me of the Canadian referendum vote, which as it happens was a stay vote by a similar margin. And with the stay vote, it was all but forgotten the next day. I can't even imagine the turmoil Canada would have been plunged into provincially and federally, if the vote balance had tipped the other way. So, I guess Canada can watch the political and economic carnage from a safe distance.
I agree that given drastic potential changes to the economic fabric of the land, such changes should require a definitive mandate. The out come should not be determined by, the weather on a particular day, or some other butterfly effect.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Lomax on June 24th, 2016, 10:35 am 

Nice to find a note of agreement with Ronjanec. ("Some things are true even if Ronjanec says they are true.") I don't think it will happen quickly, but I think it's all downhill from here for the EU.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby ronjanec on June 24th, 2016, 10:37 am 

A really scary question here: Do you any of you actually believe that Northern Ireland and Scotland could actually leave the UK because of this vote?
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Lomax on June 24th, 2016, 10:37 am 

Watson » June 24th, 2016, 3:27 pm wrote:It reminds me of the Canadian referendum vote, which as it happens was a stay vote by a similar margin. And with the stay vote, it was all but forgotten the next day. I can't even imagine the turmoil Canada would have been plunged into provincially and federally, if the vote balance had tipped the other way. So, I guess Canada can watch the political and economic carnage from a safe distance.

Great Britain: the world's laboratory.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby ronjanec on June 24th, 2016, 10:41 am 

Lomax » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:35 am wrote:Nice to find a note of agreement with Ronjanec. ("Some thinks are true even if Ronjanec says they are true.") I don't think it will happen quickly, but I think it's all downhill from here for the EU.


"Thanks" a lot: :) They say even a broken clock is correct at least twice a day right Lomax?
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Lomax on June 24th, 2016, 10:42 am 

ronjanec » June 24th, 2016, 3:37 pm wrote:A really scary question here: Do you any of you actually believe that Northern Ireland and Scotland could actually leave the UK because of this vote?

I don't feel like Northern Ireland should have been ours in the first place, and a reunification of Ireland has strong support on the Left (although I'm undereducated on the issue). The leader of the Scottish National Party (which is currently in power) has already called a second referendum because she prefers EU membership to UK membership. The previous referendum was fairly close (55.3% vs 44.7%) so I think we will see Hadrian's Wall built up, yes.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby ronjanec on June 24th, 2016, 10:54 am 

Lomax » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:42 am wrote:
ronjanec » June 24th, 2016, 3:37 pm wrote:A really scary question here: Do you any of you actually believe that Northern Ireland and Scotland could actually leave the UK because of this vote?

I don't feel like Northern Ireland should have been ours in the first place, and a reunification of Ireland has strong support on the Left (although I'm undereducated on the issue). The leader of the Scottish National Party (which is currently in power) has already called a second referendum because she prefers EU membership to UK membership. The previous referendum was fairly close (55.3% vs 44.7%) so I think we will see Hadrian's Wall built up, yes.


The possible ramifications of your vote there in the UK in regards to the rest of the world, are becoming increasingly hard to imagine.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby ronjanec on June 24th, 2016, 10:59 am 

Lomax » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:42 am wrote:
ronjanec » June 24th, 2016, 3:37 pm wrote:A really scary question here: Do you any of you actually believe that Northern Ireland and Scotland could actually leave the UK because of this vote?

I don't feel like Northern Ireland should have been ours in the first place, and a reunification of Ireland has strong support on the Left (although I'm undereducated on the issue). The leader of the Scottish National Party (which is currently in power) has already called a second referendum because she prefers EU membership to UK membership. The previous referendum was fairly close (55.3% vs 44.7%) so I think we will see Hadrian's Wall built up, yes.


I hope this is not a really dumb question, and please remember that I am from the US, but this would be a really bad thing for England if they both left right?
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Lomax on June 24th, 2016, 11:15 am 

Bad for me. The fact is that the English and the Scottish want different things politically and always have - Scotland is socialist, liberal, mostly pacifist, and contains a large movement for republicanism (lowercase r). England is a nation of Tories. I think if there's any criterion for deciding when and where people should be brought together under a common government, it is how much they identify with each other, politically, socially and culturally. At least politically the English and the Scottish identify with each other very little. I identify more with Scotland, but it's just so damn cold.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Watson on June 24th, 2016, 11:28 am 

Lomax » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:37 am wrote:
Watson » June 24th, 2016, 3:27 pm wrote:It reminds me of the Canadian referendum vote, which as it happens was a stay vote by a similar margin. And with the stay vote, it was all but forgotten the next day. I can't even imagine the turmoil Canada would have been plunged into provincially and federally, if the vote balance had tipped the other way. So, I guess Canada can watch the political and economic carnage from a safe distance.

Great Britain: the world's laboratory.


I don't think GB is a laboratory. More like a coin flip, and GB landed on her head. Had the vote gone the other way, it would all be old news and long forgotten.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Lomax on June 24th, 2016, 11:40 am 

Watson » June 24th, 2016, 4:28 pm wrote:
Lomax » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:37 am wrote:
Watson » June 24th, 2016, 3:27 pm wrote:It reminds me of the Canadian referendum vote, which as it happens was a stay vote by a similar margin. And with the stay vote, it was all but forgotten the next day. I can't even imagine the turmoil Canada would have been plunged into provincially and federally, if the vote balance had tipped the other way. So, I guess Canada can watch the political and economic carnage from a safe distance.

Great Britain: the world's laboratory.


I don't think GB is a laboratory. More like a coin flip, and GB landed on her head. Had the vote gone the other way, it would all be old news and long forgotten.

Oh well. Sounds marginally less painful than landing on one's tail.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Watson on June 24th, 2016, 12:38 pm 

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest I had an opinion either way. I was just thinking the "Non-issue vs Huge change" outcome should be more of the issue leading up to the vote.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Eclogite on June 24th, 2016, 12:58 pm 

ronjanec » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:37 pm wrote:A really scary question here: Do you any of you actually believe that Northern Ireland and Scotland could actually leave the UK because of this vote?
I would think that there is a 75% chance Scotland will leave, if we can be reasonably assured of gaining favourable entry into the EU. I have not adequately studied the NI situation, but it would have dire security implications were it to be seriously explored.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Paralith on June 24th, 2016, 1:23 pm 

Many UK voters didn’t understand Brexit, Google searches suggest

""What happens if we leave the EU?" and "What is Brexit?" were top search terms."
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Re: EU referendum

Postby BadgerJelly on June 24th, 2016, 1:49 pm 

Lomax » June 24th, 2016, 10:12 pm wrote:
BadgerJelly » June 24th, 2016, 3:11 pm wrote:At least it is democratic. I just wish one person had always meant one vote. If that was the case the UK would've had a lib dem government during the 90's.

In which election?


Well, I didn't mean for sure. They would have been seen as the opposition and I bet would have eventually had a shot at the big time.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby sponge on June 24th, 2016, 1:54 pm 

I think the chance of Scotland leaving the UK is very small. To have another vote for independence from the UK would take negotiations between the Scottish parliament and Westminster. Anyway, I think there is divided opinion in the Scottish population about the idea of breaking up the Union with a great many wanting a period a calm, not more upheaval. Although there was an overall majority for Remain in Scotland, the vote was by no means unanimous and a great many Scottish votes went towards the grand total of Leave votes. Remember, too, that the UK has decided to leave the EU and that decision includes Scotland. The EU has accepted our exit and, if Scotland did pursue a breakaway policy and vote for independence, they would need to apply to join the EU and negotiate terms for themselves.

One other thing that is bothering me a little is this growing perception that the old people voted to leave the EU and the young voted to stay. Apart from the fact that there is very little evidence for this (unless they have been analysing all the ballot papers) I think the real reason for this unexpected result is the failure of the Labour party to explain the benefits of remaining in the EU to their natural voting base. Most Conservatives that voted to leave were, I think, trying to give our government a wake-up call and never expected the result that they got. Even the Labour party has conceded that they failed to get their message across and their followers voted the ‘wrong’ way – this is why they are calling for the removal of Jeremy Corben.

If things go well for Britain, as well they might – we have a strong economy and good manufacturing base – the money markets will calm down and our decision might begin to look a little more attractive. The decision has been taken and the best thing that all Brits can do is come together and begin to work towards making a success of where we are now. Panic and hysteria are the stuff that economic collapse and uncertainty are made of and we should be talking the UK up not down.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby BadgerJelly on June 24th, 2016, 1:58 pm 

I spoke to member of my family in the UK ... from her perspective it seems like the problem was transparency of thr facts. The whole issue seems to have been clouded by directing the resentment of foreign immigrants, a cheap and dirty ploy.

I am sure if immigration was never mentioned it would've been more like 60% to remain.

Guess it is what it is. Time to stop complaining and see what the best is for Europe now. I don't see the EU falling apart. I do think it will be rebuilt and rethought, and hopefully the UK will be involved too. There were, imo, some real fears about the direction the EU was heading. I think they moved too fast and vying for power and control in the EU was its down fall.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby ronjanec on June 24th, 2016, 2:40 pm 

Eclogite » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:58 am wrote:
ronjanec » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:37 pm wrote:A really scary question here: Do you any of you actually believe that Northern Ireland and Scotland could actually leave the UK because of this vote?
I would think that there is a 75% chance Scotland will leave, if we can be reasonably assured of gaining favourable entry into the EU. I have not adequately studied the NI situation, but it would have dire security implications were it to be seriously explored.


Thanks for answering Eclogite: Do you think leaving would (now) be good for Scotland, and at the same time bad for England?
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Re: EU referendum

Postby ronjanec on June 24th, 2016, 2:49 pm 

Paralith » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:23 am wrote:Many UK voters didn’t understand Brexit, Google searches suggest

""What happens if we leave the EU?" and "What is Brexit?" were top search terms."


That's really interesting Paralith. Maybe uninfinite has already left for "the Emerald Isle" even without a passport, in one of those really small inflatable boats? :)
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Eclogite on June 24th, 2016, 3:10 pm 

ronjanec » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:40 pm wrote:Thanks for answering Eclogite: Do you think leaving would (now) be good for Scotland, and at the same time bad for England?
First, I need to identify whom I see myself as:
I am Scottish
I am English
I am British
I am European

As a Scot and a European I voted for Scottish independence in the referendum in 2014.
As all of the above I voted Remain yesterday.

As a small nation within Europe, properly led, its people properly motivated, Scotland could be highly successful as an independent nation.

There is no certain reason why England and Wales could not continue as a significant power in Europe and in the world. However there are potential reasons why this may not happen:
- Lack of imaginative leaders whose strength is based on their ability to unite, not an appeal to tribal prejudices.
- The fragility of the multi-cultural society that has evolved since WWII
- The residual resentment of the generations who suffered from the brutal transition from a manufacturing economy
- The backward looking mentalities cutting across many generations that have never come to terms that we lost an Empire.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Paul Anthony on June 24th, 2016, 6:35 pm 

Paralith » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:23 am wrote:Many UK voters didn’t understand Brexit, Google searches suggest

""What happens if we leave the EU?" and "What is Brexit?" were top search terms."


At least they inquired. Good for them! The only cure for ignorance is knowledge.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Lomax on June 24th, 2016, 11:54 pm 

Watson » June 24th, 2016, 5:38 pm wrote:Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest I had an opinion either way. I was just thinking the "Non-issue vs Huge change" outcome should be more of the issue leading up to the vote.

Don't worry, I didn't take it that way. I was trying what I thought was a clever metaphor - we did something probably stupid, instead of doing something subservient.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Lomax on June 25th, 2016, 12:04 am 

sponge » June 24th, 2016, 6:54 pm wrote:I think the chance of Scotland leaving the UK is very small. To have another vote for independence from the UK would take negotiations between the Scottish parliament and Westminster. Anyway, I think there is divided opinion in the Scottish population about the idea of breaking up the Union with a great many wanting a period a calm, not more upheaval. Although there was an overall majority for Remain in Scotland, the vote was by no means unanimous

It was a much stronger majority than that of those who voted against Scottish independence in 2014, though. Surely the Scottish Left must be tired of being chained to the Right side of the house by its neighbours, by now?

sponge » June 24th, 2016, 6:54 pm wrote:One other thing that is bothering me a little is this growing perception that the old people voted to leave the EU and the young voted to stay. Apart from the fact that there is very little evidence for this (unless they have been analysing all the ballot papers) I think the real reason for this unexpected result is the failure of the Labour party to explain the benefits of remaining in the EU to their natural voting base.

For me the most frustrating thing about the whole EU debate has been the remain camp's complete inability to come to grips with the diversity and sophistication of its opposition. I ended up in the remain camp, by a whisker's breadth, but having spent months discussing my concerns about the outlawing of expansionary fiscal policy, restrictions on freedom of speech, a president who colludes in other capacities with the far-right, the TTIP, and a general skepticism of superpowers, it was a little dismal to hear people saying "the leave campaign is just a load of racists and right-wingers and we're going to lose a bit of money for a while if we leave". It seems to me that people just imagine who they are arguing against, rather than actually listening and thinking.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Lomax on June 25th, 2016, 12:11 am 

Eclogite » June 24th, 2016, 8:10 pm wrote:
ronjanec » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:40 pm wrote:Thanks for answering Eclogite: Do you think leaving would (now) be good for Scotland, and at the same time bad for England?

There is no certain reason why England and Wales could not continue as a significant power in Europe and in the world. However there are potential reasons why this may not happen:
- Lack of imaginative leaders whose strength is based on their ability to unite, not an appeal to tribal prejudices.
- The fragility of the multi-cultural society that has evolved since WWII
- The residual resentment of the generations who suffered from the brutal transition from a manufacturing economy
- The backward looking mentalities cutting across many generations that have never come to terms that we lost an Empire.

The leave campaign made much of the commonwealth, and rightly so. The fact is that Britain didn't lose her empire, she franchised it - the queen is still the legal owner of a sixth of the world's land, housing a quarter of the world's population. We can and do make trade and travel deals with these nations (and, when it suits us, we pick their leaders). But if Scotland leaves we have lost two unions in quick succession, and it will be harder for other states to take us seriously anymore. Don't listen to the ill-informed nonsense about a "special relationship" with the US; they have already told us to get to the back of the queue (and they didn't bother to ask us before invading the commonwealth thirty-three years ago).
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Lomax on June 25th, 2016, 12:14 am 

Paul Anthony » June 24th, 2016, 11:35 pm wrote:
Paralith » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:23 am wrote:Many UK voters didn’t understand Brexit, Google searches suggest

""What happens if we leave the EU?" and "What is Brexit?" were top search terms."


At least they inquired.

Somewhat belatedly, I would say.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby sponge on June 25th, 2016, 4:20 pm 

[quote="Lomax » June 24th, 2016, 11:04 pm
It was a much stronger majority than that of those who voted against Scottish independence in 2014, though. Surely the Scottish Left must be tired of being chained to the Right side of the house by its neighbours, by now?

For me the most frustrating thing about the whole EU debate has been the remain camp's complete inability to come to grips with the diversity and sophistication of its opposition. I ended up in the remain camp, by a whisker's breadth, but having spent months discussing my concerns about the outlawing of expansionary fiscal policy, restrictions on freedom of speech, a president who colludes in other capacities with the far-right, the TTIP, and a general skepticism of superpowers, it was a little dismal to hear people saying "the leave campaign is just a load of racists and right-wingers and we're going to lose a bit of money for a while if we leave". It seems to me that people just imagine who they are arguing against, rather than actually listening and thinking.[/quote]

I sympathise with the Scots - and the Welsh and Northern Irish. To be honest, all the deeply-held beliefs about ourselves as Englishmen/women that underpinned many of the concerns about being governed by a European superpower apply equally well to the people of the other countries in the UK who have a sense of being governed by an English parliament. Hell, I live in Herefordshire and feel resentful about how out-of-touch the government is with anything outside of London!

I've ben watching Aljazeera News because the coverage of foreign reaction to Brexit is so much better. I understand that France and Germany have now put forward proposals to make the eu more open to the concerns of individual countries over issues like immigration. It is a response to Brexit and a blatant attempt to ward off any disintegration of the union, of course, but maybe something positive nontheless. Also, Angela Merkel has said that she hopes to keep close ties between Britain and the eu. Maybe we won't be making such a complete break after all?

I agree with you about the prejudices and preconceptions that many people had towards Leavers. It was as if you were automatically labelled a far right racists if you dared to voice any concerns about the increasing population or cultural differences.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Paul Anthony on June 25th, 2016, 4:36 pm 

sponge » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:20 pm wrote:

Hell, I live in Herefordshire and feel resentful about how out-of-touch the government is with anything outside of London!


Then, perhaps you can understand the frustration felt by many Americans regarding Washington, DC.

It was as if you were automatically labelled a far right racists if you dared to voice any concerns about the increasing population or cultural differences.


Again, the parallels between the sentiments of the British and Americans is uncanny. Nor is this sentiment exclusive to just the UK and the US. Those who have pushed for a world without borders may have pushed too far, too fast.
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Re: EU referendum

Postby Paul Anthony on June 26th, 2016, 12:23 pm 

Sore losers or perseverance? Over 3 million people have signed a petition calling for another referendum.

Their justification is, there should be a rule that says in referendums with less than 75 percent turnout (Thursday's vote was 72.2 percent), there should be another referendum unless a decision is reached by more than 60 percent of those voting.

Attempting to change the rules after the vote is taken as a means of justifying another vote is...well that's not how laws work, is it?

The Brits have officially lost their right to call their American cousins "stupid". :)
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