'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrity

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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 7th, 2017, 11:48 pm 

d30 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:08 pm wrote:
Paul Anthony » January 7th, 2017, 11:48 am wrote:Trump won. I didn't vote for him, but he won anyway. Get over it. I have.


Gosh oh mighty, PA. You haven't begun to "get over it" - get over the coming consequences of this election.

I wish more people understood this guy has zero experience in government, and zero understanding and appreciation of the checks-and-balances necessity of a strong public sector to keep the private sector from running rampant as it did, e.g., when critical public-sector banking and financial regulations were removed, leading within seven years to the economic collapse of 2007-8 and near second Great Depression, due to the inevitability of outrageously irresponsible misconduct of the greedy element ever lurking in the private sector.

With a Senate and Congress also controlled by people with no understanding of the indispensability of government large enough to stand up to the wealthy and their corporations, we're facing the risk of the end of America as we've known it. Risk of growing hell for growing masses of people, including you. Risk of steep decline and fall of such a once so promising nation. You can't "get over it" until you live to see the results.


When the government is large enough to stand up to the wealthy, who will stand up to the government?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby wolfhnd on January 8th, 2017, 1:31 am 

Trump simply marks the end of the current phase in cultural Marxism parasitism. Don't worry I'm sure the proponents are still out there.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Lomax on January 8th, 2017, 7:37 am 

Paul Anthony » January 7th, 2017, 11:46 pm wrote:If someone had leaked Donald's tax returns, as long as they were authentic and not doctored I would care little about who leaked them. If they were embarrassing to Trump I could imagine him trying to make a big deal out of the source of the leak.

And yet nobody did. Someone leaked information, but solely about the Democrats. By illegal means. And that someone was a rival superpower. And this doesn't concern you.

Paul Anthony » January 8th, 2017, 4:48 am wrote:When the government is large enough to stand up to the wealthy, who will stand up to the government?

Well so far Trump only shows signs of standing up to the poor, to people of ethnic and religious minorities, to the spirit of non-proliferation, to the conventions forbidding torture, and to the scientific consensus regarding climate change. I would like to see a bit more "standing up" done against this type of government, personally, by people who are instead quicker to make extremely selective excuses.

wolfhnd » January 8th, 2017, 6:31 am wrote:Trump simply marks the end of the current phase in cultural Marxism parasitism.

It's hard for me to parse this sentence, but are you suggesting that the poor are parasitic of the rich?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby wolfhnd on January 8th, 2017, 8:21 am 

It is not the purpose of cultural Marxism to help the poor but to follow in Marx's footsteps and relieve the self hatred that comes from a life of little virtue where self indulgence is an art form and their is no concept of people prospering by treating others as individuals, trading value for value.

Cultural Marxism is the product of "critical theory" proposed by followers of the Frankfort School as a means to destroy Western Civilization by deconstructing the determinism that science is based on. In a world devoid of evidence and reason only poverty physical and spiritual will prevail.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Lomax on January 8th, 2017, 9:11 am 

So you're suggesting a man who denies climate change - and much of what he can be proven to previously have said - is ushering in an age of evidence and reason? Or just that he marks the next phase of what you dubiously call "cultural Marxism"?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on January 8th, 2017, 9:58 am 

Lomax wrote:And yet nobody did. Someone leaked information, but solely about the Democrats. By illegal means. And that someone was a rival superpower. And this doesn't concern you.


To me the dangers were obvious back when Snowden defected to Russia and we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg - only what Putin wants us to see. I have no doubt that a country like Russia would assemble a psych team to put together a plan to manipulate Trump in any way they wanted to, and clearly even a Twitter or skit on SNL works, so that ease of control alone would make him their preferred choice and you have to wonder what other information they have could be used to blackmail him, etc., because no doubt there are other secrets he still would not want exposed. But how could we doubt they don't have acces to other more serious military secrets such as the classic weapons systems, etc? But probably even more important in this day and age, I think it should be obvious that in addition to all kinds of diplomatic secrets they have tons of access to any and all kinds of financial secrets and are able to manipulate international financial markets institutions to their hearts content and what they don't have a use for they can easily sell to anyone else. Maybe entirely my own opinion but I think Trump alone would have ended the US's position as a superpower and possibly even as a first world nation but now I would suspect Russia will only let some of that image remain for strategic reasons but they will slowly and quietly emerge as the only real, dominant superpower with Trump as a non-threat if not quiet backer. The only question remaining is what does Russia want next and into the future and how much will China let them have? They probably don't want the same territorial expansion they did in the past but I bet the wealth and power of the upper elite is on the rise.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 8th, 2017, 12:06 pm 

Forest_Dump » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:58 am wrote:
To me the dangers were obvious back when Snowden defected to Russia and we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg - only what Putin wants us to see. I have no doubt that a country like Russia would assemble a psych team to put together a plan to manipulate Trump in any way they wanted to, and clearly even a Twitter or skit on SNL works, so that ease of control alone would make him their preferred choice and you have to wonder what other information they have could be used to blackmail him, etc., because no doubt there are other secrets he still would not want exposed. But how could we doubt they don't have acces to other more serious military secrets such as the classic weapons systems, etc? But probably even more important in this day and age, I think it should be obvious that in addition to all kinds of diplomatic secrets they have tons of access to any and all kinds of financial secrets and are able to manipulate international financial markets institutions to their hearts content and what they don't have a use for they can easily sell to anyone else. Maybe entirely my own opinion but I think Trump alone would have ended the US's position as a superpower and possibly even as a first world nation but now I would suspect Russia will only let some of that image remain for strategic reasons but they will slowly and quietly emerge as the only real, dominant superpower with Trump as a non-threat if not quiet backer. The only question remaining is what does Russia want next and into the future and how much will China let them have? They probably don't want the same territorial expansion they did in the past but I bet the wealth and power of the upper elite is on the rise.


The cold war ended with the collapse of the USSR. Russia is so much less than its predecessor. If you take a closer look at Putin's "aggressions", like reclaiming Crimea to ensure a vital seaport, or supporting Syria for the same reason (and let's try to remember Russia is the only foreign power involved in Syria that is there by invitation from that sovereign nation's legal government), the actions are not nearly as aggressive as those of the US. The US, through NATO, has been boxing Russia in and threatening its existence. When the USSR collapsed the West promised that former Eastern European satellite countries would not become NATO members. And yet, they have. Russia's aggressions" are understandable. Perhaps warranted.

You lament the possible demise of US position as a super-power. How do you define a super-power? The US has a recent history of intervening in the affairs of other nations, both covertly and overtly. Since the fall of USSR, the US has become more aggressive. Is that a quality of a super-power? If so, perhaps it is time for the US to become less of one.

I understand why you have little faith in Trump. You are not alone. I've noticed he has chosen some very powerful and outspoken people as his Cabinet members. These people are less likely to be swayed by Russia (or by the Democrats). To repeat the ridiculous claim that the US is becoming a puppet of the all-powerful Russia is laughable.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 8th, 2017, 1:51 pm 

Here's a novel idea: Let's get back to the topic at hand.

I present a news columnist's opinion on the problem with cable news. He has a point.

http://townhall.com/columnists/derekhunter/2017/01/08/the-real-problem-with-fake-news-n2268346?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl&newsletterad=
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on January 8th, 2017, 2:21 pm 

Paul Anthony » January 7th, 2017, 2:06 pm wrote:
I am not shocked that Russia engages in cyber warfare any more than I am shocked that we and our allies do, too. But is this time different? Is this a "threat to democracy"?

YES. This time is very, very different from anything that's happened before.
IMO, using this to undermine the legitimacy of a Trump Presidency is the greater threat to democracy.

Since it was never legitimate, on several counts (any more than Clinton's would have been), and it's undermined every time the President-elect touches a button or opens his mouth, it's really not a question of lesser or greater threat.
Democracy is already cowering in a corner of an abandoned factory basement behind the rusty boiler, covering its head with mouldy sacks and trembling at every creak and thud.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Athena on January 8th, 2017, 2:42 pm 

Paul Anthony » January 8th, 2017, 11:51 am wrote:Here's a novel idea: Let's get back to the topic at hand.

I present a news columnist's opinion on the problem with cable news. He has a point.

http://townhall.com/columnists/derekhunter/2017/01/08/the-real-problem-with-fake-news-n2268346?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl&newsletterad=


And the problem is? This forum is better than many where all the people posting do not know the difference between facts and opinions. The quote from your link is true for the majority, and this is an education problem. With what we spend on education we shouldn't have this problem.

That means they have no knowledge – institutional, first-hand, studying, etc. – on the topic; they just have an opinion on it.


Isn't that like religion? No evidence but absolutely sure one has God's truth. Or am I just being cynical? I hope not. I hope I am making a good point about the importance of education, so one knows what goes into thinking something through, rather than just having a knee-jerk reaction to everything.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 8th, 2017, 2:51 pm 

Serpent » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:21 am wrote:


YES. This time is very, very different from anything that's happened before.


No, saying that is not enough. Although I'm aware that many share your sentiment, you can do better.

HOW and WHY is this "very, very different from anything that's happened before"?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on January 8th, 2017, 3:15 pm 

A fair point. If state hacking is a threat to truth and integrity of our system, we should be able to point to specific weaknesses it targets.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 8th, 2017, 4:16 pm 

Braininvat » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:15 pm wrote:A fair point. If state hacking is a threat to truth and integrity of our system, we should be able to point to specific weaknesses it targets.


Is it? Remember, the voting machines were not hacked. The "integrity" of the voting system has not been breached.

That leaves "truth". The DNC was hacked. Was what was leaked in any way not true? Harmful, yes. Embarrassing, yes if politicians still possess sufficient morality to be embarrassed. But has "truth" been compromised as a direct result of the hacking and the leaks?

This election will be remembered for many things, but I don't think truth will be one of those things. ;)
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on January 8th, 2017, 4:47 pm 

The spying itself hasn't changed since the Byzantine Empire. It's not a matter of who is the target that makes this situation unique. It's the other things that have changed recently and rapidly.

Cyber-technology is more insidious and prevalent every year; the capability of both state and private spy agencies is no longer calculable or containable. The data that's available to be hacked is in unprecedented quantity and sensitivity. The information that's provided by various persons, institutions, government agencies and businesses in confidence, believing they're using a 'secure' server, can end up anywhere and be used for any purpose, by any private, national, military, news, law-enforcement, criminal, rebel or terrorist entity. The results of releasing information - however intended - will have consequences that nobody, including the perpetrator, can control or predict.
Most of us haven't come to terms with, and are incapable of understanding, the cyberscape in which we conduct our day-to-day affairs.

Politics on the global stage has never been as turbulent and unstable. Allow for the sheer number of players and size of populations when figuring the variables. Wars, sure, we've had lots of wars. But until now most of the combatants have had a clear idea of who their enemies were and why. Nobody's sure anymore, and it will only become more confusing. Even ideologies are impossible to label within +/- 20% accuracy. Nobody knows where and when the next extremist group will pop up, even in their own smallish nations, never mind complex federations, or what those factions hope to achieve.
Political party designations have been utterly divested of intelligible meaning; factions within parties are even murkier, and factions with no previous political history are impossible to track.

Paul Anthony - Remember, the voting machines were not hacked. The "integrity" of the voting system has not been breached.

Maybe not last fall. It's been compromised enough over the last sixteen years.

Some countries have been comfortable in the habit of believing themselves modern, enlightened democracies, and have no idea of the depth of corruption in their own political structures and electoral systems. Their citizens have relaxed into receiving input from communication media that have gradually diluted the useful fact to sensory stimulus ratio of their news content, until the audience would have to sit for 12 attentive hours in front of (e.g) CNN in order to get ten minutes worth of meaningful information.
And that's just for the immediate action required of them.

Trump-alikes are all over Europe, and probably on other continents whose activities are even less within our ken; no telling how many. They're not merely ignorant of how governance is supposed to work, or what the office they're after is supposed to entail, according to what rules; they have no intention of learning on the job : they're proud of not knowing their responsibilities. Most of them also advocate, and are supported by, violent paranoia.
There have been many incompetent heads of states before; there have been mad rulers; there have been rogues and outlaws. But they were generally the odd-man-out in an approximately functional world order, not the norm.

We are very quickly approaching a juncture where the leadership of every wealthy and powerful nation, as well as most of the insignificant ones, has a complete disregard for the future.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 8th, 2017, 5:31 pm 

Serpent,

Your view borders on dystopian, but it is not entirely inaccurate. And even that isn't new. The likes of George Orwell saw things in much the same way. And yet, we are still here.

I, too, lament the inaccuracies of what passes for news these days. But I wonder if we were better informed in the past when we had fewer sources. Could it be that we have always been lied to, only by fewer and therefore more trusted people?

Is this really the first time we have a President with different ideas and little experience? Jimmy Carter was a peanut farmer. Ronald Reagan was an actor. George W. Bush was the son of a President. Barrack Obama was a community organizer. Dwight Eisenhower was a General. It seems the people are always looking for change, and so we elect people who are different from the one we're replacing in the hopes that this time will be different. The biggest obstacle Hilllary couldn't quite overcome was the perception that she represented "business as usual".

We always seem to get the government we deserve, so it shouldn't be surprising that we're never quite satisfied with it. :)

Did Russia sway some opinions? Did our own media? Or is it just that the American people aren't sure what they want, but are convinced they'll get it right this time.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby d30 on January 8th, 2017, 7:23 pm 

Paul Anthony » January 7th, 2017, 7:48 pm wrote:
d30 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:08 pm wrote:
Paul Anthony » January 7th, 2017, 11:48 am wrote:Trump won. I didn't vote for him, but he won anyway. Get over it. I have.


Gosh oh mighty, PA. You haven't begun to "get over it" - get over the coming consequences of this election.

I wish more people understood this guy has zero experience in government, and zero understanding and appreciation of the checks-and-balances necessity of a strong public sector to keep the private sector from running rampant as it did, e.g., when critical public-sector banking and financial regulations were removed, leading within seven years to the economic collapse of 2007-8 and near second Great Depression, due to the inevitability of outrageously irresponsible misconduct of the greedy element ever lurking in the private sector.

With a Senate and Congress also controlled by people with no understanding of the indispensability of government large enough to stand up to the wealthy and their corporations, we're facing the risk of the end of America as we've known it. Risk of growing hell for growing masses of people, including you. Risk of steep decline and fall of such a once so promising nation. You can't "get over it" until you live to see the results.


When the government is large enough to stand up to the wealthy, who will stand up to the government?


No one will have to because what you describe is what is required - balance of power: they are each strong enough to regulate the other. I see I should have included, and thought about including, that government itself must not be allowed to become excessively powerful either. That, too, would violate the necessity of balance of power between the private and public sectors (an essential I've never seen noticed by or spoken by anyone else). But that is not the trouble today.

The trouble today is government, the public sector, severely weakened by decades of corruption and undermining of it by the extreme wealthy of our day, made possible only by a dormant CIVIC sector (the People), owing to the titanic failure of parents, schools and media the past 60 years to teach the lessons of history, one prime lesson of which is the Founding Fathers' fundamental working principle, as in the Constitution - BALANCE OF POWER (AKA "checks and balances" - allowing no branch of government to be too strong. It's long past time for this principle to be recognized and applied vis-a-vis the public, private and civic sectors).
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 8th, 2017, 7:39 pm 

d30 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:23 pm wrote:
Paul Anthony » January 7th, 2017, 11:48 am wrote:
When the government is large enough to stand up to the wealthy, who will stand up to the government?


No one will have to because what you describe is what is required - balance of power: they are each strong enough to regulate the other. I see I should have included, and thought about including, that government itself must not be allowed to become excessively powerful either. That, too, would violate the necessity of balance of power between the private and public sectors (an essential I've never seen noticed by or spoken by anyone else).


Okay, your revised position is reasonable.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on January 8th, 2017, 8:30 pm 

Paul Anthony » January 8th, 2017, 4:31 pm wrote:Serpent,

Your view borders on dystopian, but it is not entirely inaccurate.

If it only borders, I'm seriously understating the case.
And even that isn't new. The likes of George Orwell saw things in much the same way.

Dystopian vision and, indeed, dystopias, are certainly not new. The reality, world-wide, is. Orwell thought it would come a little sooner, perhaps because he failed to take into account that sucking the third world dry and wrecking the environment would buy the ... chosen peoples... a few extra decades.
And yet, we are still here.

Does this mean that, if the forecast bad ending hasn't arrived yet, it never can?
This my favourite argument for keeping on with destructive behaviour : "Doctors have told me before that smoking would kill me, and it never did. You think this little cancer will do it?"

I, too, lament the inaccuracies of what passes for news these days. But I wonder if we were better informed in the past when we had fewer sources. Could it be that we have always been lied to, only by fewer and therefore more trusted people?

There have been times of lies and times when lies were ferreted out, hunted down and exposed. That's not so much the point, as that most people either swallow it whole or reject it whole, depending on the source, without any attempt to question or reflect upon what they've heard. Sorting out and evaluating the information content is just too damn much work.

Is this really the first time we have a President with different ideas and little experience? Jimmy Carter was a peanut farmer.

Excuse me? He didn't go from bogus peanut farmer to president on a carnival ride. Two terms as state senator and one as governor can be counted as experience. Reagan also served his stint as governor of a quite difficult state. Etc. Not one of them ran on anti-party, anti-Washington, don't give a damn platform.
As for ideas - some had ideas, some didn't; some were better organized and had more party support than others. None before were openly bent on wrecking the place.

Did Russia sway some opinions? Did our own media? Or is it just that the American people aren't sure what they want, but are convinced they'll get it right this time.

The American people are not the American people. They are a dozen different American peoples, each of which has some nebulous idea of what it might want, and a very definite idea of one or two things it doesn't want - mostly, each other.
What very few have figured out yet is that nobody's getting what they want and everybody's getting at least some of what they don't want, even if they don't yet know they won't want it when they see it barrelling down the highway at them.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Lomax on January 8th, 2017, 9:09 pm 

Paul Anthony » January 8th, 2017, 5:06 pm wrote:The cold war ended with the collapse of the USSR. Russia is so much less than its predecessor.

For now, but it bears note than Putin is a former KGB agent who laments the fall of the USSR as the worst day of his life so far. I accept the complexity of the Crimean question, but it seems clear to me that Putin's motives are irredentist at best, and he undermines democracy and liberty at home. It would be a real tragedy if he were to reverse Gorbachev's achievement, and I don't think we should be flippant or naive about this possibility.

Paul Anthony » January 8th, 2017, 5:06 pm wrote:Since the fall of USSR, the US has become more aggressive.

Guatemala, East Timor, Cuba, Vietnam, Cambodia, Chile, Dominican Republic, Grenada. I am just counting aggressive, rather than reactive or humanitarian, involvements in conflict. So I am not convinced.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 8th, 2017, 9:44 pm 

Lomax » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:09 pm wrote:
Guatemala, East Timor, Cuba, Vietnam, Cambodia, Chile, Dominican Republic, Grenada. I am just counting aggressive, rather than reactive or humanitarian, involvements in conflict. So I am not convinced.


You don't have to put boots on the ground to be aggressive. The US has meddled in the middle east extensively, but I was referring to US/NATO movement surrounding Russia because we were talking about Putin's possible motives for his aggression. There are many in Congress who miss having Russia as an enemy. Maybe because it was simpler when our enemy was a country instead of a series of terrorist moving targets.

The cold war ended, but for some "We have always been at war with Eurasia".
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on January 11th, 2017, 4:46 am 

Are we seeing payback for Trump's attack on the intelligence bodies?

John McCain passes dossier alleging secret Trump-Russia contacts to FBI
The Guardian, Wednesday 11 January 2017
Trump’s transition team did not immediately respond to a request for comment, but late on Tuesday, Trump tweeted: “FAKE NEWS – A TOTAL POLITICAL WITCH HUNT!” He made no direct reference to the allegations.
[...]
Most explosively, the report alleges: “FSB has compromised Trump through his activities in Moscow sufficiently to be able to blackmail him.” The president-elect has not responded to the allegations.

CNN reported on Tuesday that the FBI was still investigating the credibility of the documents but added that the intelligence chiefs had included a summary of the material in a secret briefing on Russian interference in the election delivered last week to Barack Obama and Donald Trump.

The emergence of the documents is potentially explosive, 10 days before Trump’s inauguration and on the eve of his first planned press conference since July last year.

This is kind of pointing to Russia having America's leader by the balls and thus a significant amount of American political power. If it is true that they are blackmailing the POTUS, it's like they can control significant portions of the US as if they were using a joystick. Pretty serious stuff!
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 11th, 2017, 11:54 am 

Mossling » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:46 am wrote:Are we seeing payback for Trump's attack on the intelligence bodies?

John McCain passes dossier alleging secret Trump-Russia contacts to FBI
The Guardian, Wednesday 11 January 2017
Trump’s transition team did not immediately respond to a request for comment, but late on Tuesday, Trump tweeted: “FAKE NEWS – A TOTAL POLITICAL WITCH HUNT!” He made no direct reference to the allegations.
[...]
Most explosively, the report alleges: “FSB has compromised Trump through his activities in Moscow sufficiently to be able to blackmail him.” The president-elect has not responded to the allegations.

CNN reported on Tuesday that the FBI was still investigating the credibility of the documents but added that the intelligence chiefs had included a summary of the material in a secret briefing on Russian interference in the election delivered last week to Barack Obama and Donald Trump.

The emergence of the documents is potentially explosive, 10 days before Trump’s inauguration and on the eve of his first planned press conference since July last year.

This is kind of pointing to Russia having America's leader by the balls and thus a significant amount of American political power. If it is true that they are blackmailing the POTUS, it's like they can control significant portions of the US as if they were using a joystick. Pretty serious stuff!


Do you understand the difference between innuendo and fact?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on January 11th, 2017, 2:58 pm 

I was starting to wonder that, myself. The only fact I can discern, so far, is:

".....reported on Tuesday that the FBI was still investigating the credibility of the documents...."
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on January 11th, 2017, 10:00 pm 

Of course - I'm viewing this within the context of the apparent 'truth war' that is ensuing. Arguably the intelligence agencies have more of a monopoly on the truth, and so their innuendo would still carry quite a political punch. I'm expecting that Trump will do some reorganising once he is properly in power.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 11th, 2017, 11:35 pm 

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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on January 12th, 2017, 12:48 am 


"more" of a monopoly on it than Trump, yeah, but - indeed, probably not for much longer! Perhaps they don't deserve the title 'intelligence' anymore. Wrong Iraq WMD claim as Trump said, and now this... More politics than true service it seems :/

Trump is now THE TRUTH ....

fo now... ;P
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on January 12th, 2017, 1:07 am 

Trump's trainwreck press conference ushers in a clueless presidency
The Guardian, Wednesday 11 January 2017
Suspecting the recent Russia revelations are the work of the intelligence agencies, Trump continues to wage war on his own spies. He could offer no proof of such a betrayal but continued to trash the CIA in public all the same.

This kind of struggle does not end well for sitting presidents, as Richard Nixon discovered. Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein’s biggest source, known as Deep Throat, was in fact the deputy director of the FBI.

And so the battle for the truth heats up...
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on January 12th, 2017, 10:55 am 

Paul Anthony » January 11th, 2017, 10:54 am wrote:
Do you understand the difference between innuendo and fact?

In the post-truth era, nobody does. That's pretty much the point.
Lock her up! Lock him up! Lock them all up!
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on January 12th, 2017, 11:25 am 



Really, Paul? Someone posted on 4chan? If we are going to counter agency truth, something more credible than "some anonymous guy posting on 4chan" is needed.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 12th, 2017, 12:31 pm 

Now that Trump has called the information fake, the CIA is backing away from it. They admit it has been circulating "For months" but never contradicted it, until now.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/01/12/donald-trump-james-clapper-russia-dossier/96481140/
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