'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrity

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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on June 25th, 2017, 11:00 pm 

Sivad » June 26th, 2017, 11:49 am wrote:
Mossling » June 25th, 2017, 7:28 pm wrote:
Sivad » June 22nd, 2017, 10:48 am wrote:Trump has been shitlisted by the establishment for a number of reasons so they're going after him for it. I'm not a Trump supporter, I hope hey lock him up, I just deplore bullshit partisan hypocrisy more than I loathe Trump.

But Trump's scandals are linked to the significant Russian interference in the election, which he has now recognised himself (and is trying to blame Obama for), which seems like it puts him beyond "regular politicking".

That very political system has been, and could very likely still be, under threat from a traditional foreign enemy, and via the office of the POTUS himself, which is something new.


It's not anything new

Thanks for the quick reply ;P, sorry I made a little edit to my most recent post above thinking I had some time before you replied, but doesnt change much.

, transnational elites have held sway over the office for some time. What's the difference between a "traditional enemy" and transnational corporations with inimical interests to the American public? I agree with you that Trump is really bad, but he's no worse than any of the other crooks we've had.

Do you mean to ask me what is the difference between a traditional enemy nation state and a transnational elite corporation?

I'd say plenty - the availability and transparent use of military and intelligence assets probably the most obvious one.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Sivad on June 25th, 2017, 11:25 pm 

Mossling » June 25th, 2017, 8:00 pm wrote:Do you mean to ask me what is the difference between a traditional enemy nation state and a transnational elite corporation?

I'd say plenty - the availability and transparent use of military and intelligence assets probably the most obvious one.


Maybe 30 years ago, but not these days. When it come to POTUS puppeteers I prefer Russia to Citibank. Russia just wants geopolitical concessions within it's own sphere, Citi wants to exploit me and the rest of the world.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on June 26th, 2017, 12:03 am 

Sivad » June 26th, 2017, 12:25 pm wrote:
Mossling » June 25th, 2017, 8:00 pm wrote:Do you mean to ask me what is the difference between a traditional enemy nation state and a transnational elite corporation?

I'd say plenty - the availability and transparent use of military and intelligence assets probably the most obvious one.


Maybe 30 years ago, but not these days. When it come to POTUS puppeteers I prefer Russia to Citibank. Russia just wants geopolitical concessions within it's own sphere, Citi wants to exploit me and the rest of the world.

Who knows what they are really interested in. Hitler, Kim Jong Un, Pol Pot, and so on and so forth. Plenty of examples of twisted fascist agendas within the last 100 years. For those who have the most absolute power it seems tempting for them to see the future as a canvas on which to paint their own world-view, 'warts and all'. As you seem to infer, our choices put forward via our however-compromised vote, our wallets, or, for the more viscerally-minded, more violent means, requires us to choose which warts we are most happy to have in our lives.

Returning to the main thrust of this topic, however - the noble quest for Truth and the love of wisdom that it engenders because it, like the virtues of prosocial living, makes our lives more efficient, seems to be considered a hindrance by the likes of Trump - it appears that he considers the prosocial Truth something ephemeral - maybe some sick joke that intellectuals like to throw in his face.

As stated many pages ago on this thread, Socrates disagreed with how democracy was being put on a pedestal by members of Athenian society who had no keen interest in wisdom - no keen interest in pursuing The Philosophical Truth. It seems that he did defer to democracy being the most suitable form of government once the primary importance of wisdom had been given the necessary respect that was due to it, though.

However, what appears to be happening in America at the moment concerning The Truth and Democracy, is something more extreme and dangerous:

* The POTUS recognises that a traditionally hostile foreign nation state successfully interfered with an American democratic election - an election that elevated him into power.
* The POTUS and his administrative team have - as individuals and collectively - highly significant historical business ties and apparent future business aspirations towards that traditionally hostile foreign nation state that elevated them into power.
* When American intelligence services, such as the FBI, continue to conduct an investigation into the CLEAR ATTACK ON AMERICAN DEMOCRACY BY A TRADITIONAL FOREIGN ADVERSARY, Trump THEN SELF-ADMITTEDLY OBSTRUCTS THE INVESTIGATION BY FIRING THE HEAD OF THE FBI, and when his motives are questioned HE BRANDS THE FBI'S GENUINE NON-PARTISAN CONCERN FOR THE SAFETY OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY AS "A PARTISAN LIBERAL AGENDA" - AS "FAKE NEWS" - AS NON-TRUTH.

This is all apparently beyond "politics as usual". This is an attack on The Truth - on traditional Western political, and thus American, wisdom - wisdom which includes and champions the high value of the American democratic process.

This is not 'business as usual', my friend. Trump intends to kill Socrates as the Athenians did, and potentially the American democratic process as well.

If the Truth falls, then so does wisdom, and thus the wisdom of democracy as a political process. It appears that Trump has no respect for any of it, and the only major world nation or political leader that he hasn't expressed disapproval of is THE VERY FOREIGN TRADITIONAL AMERICAN ADVERSARY WHO INTERFERED IN HIS OWN COUNTRY'S DEMOCRATIC ELECTION.

If this does not concern you, then logic seems to be wasted on you.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on June 27th, 2017, 1:35 am 

Here is one timeline below of how the post-truth anti-US democracy situation has been unfolding:

Trump asserts that the US election is being rigged via "media-pushed lies" - fake news. In other words he has no faith in the US democratic system:


Trump asserts that the Russian hacking story is a DNC hoax and his lack of concern regarding Putin's reported involvement is questioned:


Trump hears from an intelligence briefing that the hacking was not a hoax and then he shows the minimum concern over it:


Even Fox News is concerned about how anti-US democracy attacks from Russia have been called "fake news":


Trump finally admits that the Russian hacking was real, not a DNC hoax, and is now trying to blame Obama for it:


This is not apparently someone who loves American Democracy, let alone The Truth. And there's "yuge" protection of Russian interests over anyone else's.... for some reason....
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on June 27th, 2017, 8:24 am 

Trump’s Lies
NY Times, JUNE 23, 2017
Many Americans have become accustomed to President Trump’s lies. But as regular as they have become, the country should not allow itself to become numb to them. So we have catalogued nearly every outright lie he has told publicly since taking the oath of office.
[...]
President Trump’s political rise was built on a lie (about Barack Obama's birthplace). His lack of truthfulness has also become central to the Russia investigation, with James Comey, the former director of the F.B.I., testifying under oath about Trump's “lies, plain and simple.”

There is simply no precedent for an American president to spend so much time telling untruths. Every president has shaded the truth or told occasional whoppers. No other president — of either party — has behaved as Trump is behaving. He is trying to create an atmosphere in which reality is irrelevant.

We have set a conservative standard here, leaving out many dubious statements (like the claim that his travel ban is “similar” to Obama administration policy). Some people may still take issue with this standard, arguing that the president wasn't speaking literally. But we believe his long pattern of using untruths to serve his purposes, as a businessman and politician, means that his statements are not simply careless errors.

We are using the word “lie” deliberately. Not every falsehood is deliberate on Trump's part. But it would be the height of naïveté to imagine he is merely making honest mistakes. He is lying.
[...]
Trump achieved something remarkable: He said something untrue, in public, every day for the first 40 days of his presidency. The streak didn’t end until March 1.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on June 29th, 2017, 10:57 pm 

Irony...

'The literal definition of fake news': late-night hosts on Trump's Time cover
The Guardian, 29 June 2017 16.37 BST
“Trump is so obsessed with praise from the media that according to the Washington Post, he keeps this framed Time magazine cover hanging in several of his golf clubs,” Meyers said. “Cool cover, flattering photo. Just one problem. The Time cover is a fake. That’s right, Trump hung a fake Time Magazine cover with his face on it in his private golf club. That is the literal definition of fake news. This would be the saddest thing I’ve ever heard if it wasn’t the funniest thing I’ve ever heard.”

Image
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on July 1st, 2017, 11:01 pm 

Even the great Trump-paid sophist Kellyanne Conway is now caught by her post-truth spaghetti lies when confronted with video evidence of her speaking out against personal attacks (like Trump's on msnbc hosts recently):



She says "the toxicity both ways" by accident, like a normal human being, and then remembers who her truth has been bought by and replaces it with "coming to the president".

Projected truth is for sale to the highest bidder, but you can't argue logically with your reflection in a (video) mirror. As the direct reality fades (after the video disappears), the seamless transition into post-truth occurs as if it is completely normal, and the reality becomes distorted by words. Kellyanne's headshake - shaking off the truth of the idea of 'toxic POTUS' is like some robot meeting a 'good heart' bug in its program - glitching for a second and then reverting back to 'safe sophist mode'; lie for political gain.

It's amazing how a human can behave in this way at such a high level of sociopolitical responsibility. Then again, feeding one's children is more important than word games, now, isn't it? Personal economic gain over civil norms, though? Hmmm, let's see how long that meme works for this administration.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on July 11th, 2017, 10:57 pm 

An interesting apparent new tactic on 'the war on truth' here from the New York Times - as possible proud traditional American guardians of the truth. They seemed to have gotten three leaked facts:

1) Donald Jr. met with Russia-employed lawyer during Trump campaign.
2) The meeting was related to helping the Trump campaign.
3) The meeting was about sharing Russian-obtained dirt on Hilary.

So the NYT decides to release only the first fact and Donald Jr. denies it, then they release the second fact and Donald Jr. admits the meeting and says it was about child adoption. Then they release the third fact and Donald Jr has to change his story for the third time.

In this 'game' the NYT is completely in control because the Trump admin cannot know how much information they really have. So now, knowing that newspapers are hitting back in this way, as things unfold Trump must be panicking, knowing that the proud "failing NYT" - effectively an American institution that champions the first amendment - branded by Trump as a "fake news" outlet, is setting the scene so as to cause maximum damage to the Trumps.

NYT knows the Trumps will lie - consistently - so they can release information in such a way that the liars dig themselves into a hole. They effectively 'forced' Donald Jr. to lie twice, and then finally release the damning emails himself.

Fascinating.



And as stated in the above video, what does this now mean for the situation regarding Russia's proven (by at least 4 major intelligence agencies) intereference in the recent US election, now that it has been confirmed in writing from a Russian-backed 'operative' that Russia was actively supporting the Trump campaign?

What a saga. Is this all going to be a case story for children to come?: "Honesty is the best policy, my darling - remember what happened to the Trumps"...
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