'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrity

This is a forum for discussing philosophical theories of government and social structure. It is not a venue for partisan rants or plugging favored candidates.

Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on July 3rd, 2018, 5:21 am 

Serpent » July 2nd, 2018, 11:14 pm wrote:
Mossling » July 1st, 2018, 10:33 pm wrote: I am saying there is an apparent common 'celebration of ignorance' regarding the more sophisticated (elitist) world between Trumpists and Amish,

No, there is not. They are very, very different, and both are very, very different from Vanuatu natives.

Apples and oranges are very different yes, but they are both fruits. Now then, let's see if you can join the dots in the following - I have highlighted the key sentences in bold for you:

The Amish understand a crucial thing about modern medicine that most Americans don’t
QUARTZ, May 30, 2016
Recently, a two-year-old boy was treated with B&W and died at home. His parents received probation after pleading no contest to charges of child endangerment. Wengerd, who was familiar with this case from newspaper reports, suggests that the parents – who had left the Amish and worked without the support of Amish burn dressers – likely didn’t recognize that the situation was “over their head.”

Wengerd and Keim both know that Plain people, like all people, are fallible. This is why they want to coordinate with hospitals. “We don’t want a casualty that puts B&W into a bad light just because we’re ignorant,” says Wengerd. “That’s one of the prime reasons for Pomerene [the local hospital] and their involvement. We need that medical oversight. We’re not opposed to them.”

Keim even acknowledges a role for skin grafting within the B&W protocol, saying, “I would be so happy if we could get together and discuss this. I know, when you’re highly educated, it’s hard to step down. I know pride has something to do with it. And, of course, finances also. That’s a block we’re not able to remove and we’ll have to deal with it.”


50 Years Ago: Cargo Cults of Melanesia
Scientific American, May 1, 2009
For a long time the natives accepted the European mission as the means by which the "cargo" would eventually be made available to them. But they found that acceptance of Christianity did not bring the cargo any nearer. They grew disillusioned. The Astor now began to be put about that it was not the Whites who made the cargo, but the dead ancestors.

To people completely ignorant of factory production, this made good sense. White men did not work; they merely wrote secret signs on scraps of paper, for which they were given shiploads of goods. On the other hand, the Melanesians labored week after week for pitiful wages. Plainly the goods must be made for Melanesians somewhere, perhaps in the Land of the Dead.

The Whites, who possessed the secret of the cargo, were intercepting it and keeping it from the hands of the islanders, to whom it was really consigned. In the Madang district of New Guinea, after some 40 years' experience of the missions, the natives went in a body one day with a petition demanding that the cargo secret should now be revealed to them, for they had been very patient.


Cargo Cult Psychology
Science-Based Medicine, March 15, 2016
Last year I reviewed Tomasz Witkowski and Maciej Zatonski’s book Psychology Gone Wrong where they pointed out that many of psychology’s accepted beliefs and therapies were not based on good evidence. Now Witkowski has written a new book, to be published later this year, Psychology Led Astray: Cargo Cult in Science and Therapy, that is certain to ruffle a lot of feathers. He compares psychology to cargo cults. He says, “the cargo cult phenomenon is virtually absent in physics, chemistry, and mathematics, yet it runs rampant in both psychology and sociology.” He uncovers cargo cult practices in psychology, unmasking therapies that are devoid of science, dangerous, and even cruel, especially those directed at children.

Richard Feynman was the first to compare the contemporary social sciences, including psychology, to a cargo cult. For those not familiar, the term “cargo cult” originates with the natives in Melanesia, who were awestruck by the planes that landed on their islands during WWII bringing all kinds of supplies. They had no understanding of what airplanes were or where they came from. Magical thinking led them to create bamboo replicas of planes and control towers in the superstitious belief that it would attract planes and bring them material goods. Similarly, many psychology researchers have been imitating the methods of science without really understanding how science is supposed to work. They go through the motions, but their research designs are so poorly thought out and the methodology so poor that their results are meaningless. And then they use those meaningless results to guide therapy. They have been led astray, have deceived themselves, and have harmed patients.
[...]
There are 500 kinds of psychotherapy; few disappear. The most successful are integrated with popular beliefs and traditions. Cargo cult prophets discourage empirical validation. Freud said “the wealth of reliable observations on which these assertions rest makes them independent of experimental verification.” Witkowski explains why people believe in ineffective treatments and why “American clinical psychologists put more trust in their own clinical experience supported by reports of their colleagues than in the scientific evidence”


Thus, ignorance is seriously afoot - on the level of cargo cults - within America, and akin to any smug Plain people or Cargo Cultists, the empirical Truth is being trumped (in more ways than one, heh) by another way of thinking. In this respect, post-Truthism is not a philosophical stance at all - it's a cosmological one, and not necessarily a traditional religious one either - there are all of these more modern developments such 'Luciferic Owl Cults' - shapeshifting reptilians and deep state illuminati conspiracies. Again - this thinking that there is some secret not being shared by those in possession of the national 'cargo' is in common with the Melanesians as well as many Trumpist deep state conspiracy theorists.

I have provided you with references to my statements, and I ask you to also reference your own if you continue to tout your opinion as 'fact' - "It's like this, it's like that... because I say so"... This mode of argument is getting tiresome. We all have our opinions and perspectives, but they need to be framed as such, rather than speaking as an alleged authority on these matters, which you are apparently not, and so could we have a bit more humility here, please?

whilst at the same time enjoying the material benefits that arise from that sophistication, without recognising that those benefits are owed to the hard work of their fellow better-educated countrymen.

That's not true, either. The Mennonites are hard and honest workers; they tread lightly on the earth, deal fairly with their neighbours, and take nothing that they don't earn. The reason for their choice of lifestyle is one of principle, not convenience.

Are you arguing that the protection these groups enjoy from developed sophisticated US law and social and military technology is not a convenience for them? Of course it is - if they were in less technologically-developed countries, they would have a hell of a lot more pressures to deal with than merely being prosecuted for neglecting their own childrens' healthcare.

The Trump base is more diverse, but the majority is working people who don't want a free ride. They want a fair chance and feel hard-done-by.

It seems many of his voters did at the peak of his campaign, but as we now know - he had the support of Russian troll farms. I wonder how many of those voters have changed their minds since Trump has taken office and he's been failing in so many ways.

to bite the sophisticated "elite" hands that feed them -

Those sophisticated elite hands have been spectacularly failing to feed large swathes of the population - or to educate, or to employ.

Hold on, what about the "Americans who had been given a reasonable (15 or 17th ranking in the world) education, and life-long access to public libraries, radio and television and unlimited ownership of motorized vehicles and automatic weapons"?

Of course they are not expecting to be literally fed food by the elite, but according to you they have all the necessary conditions to thrive... - but no, there is some secret 'deep state agenda' to deprive them.... hmmm, where have we seen such thinking already referenced in this post?...

Trump and his predecessors (of ever-descending integrity)

So you're a Trump supporter? You think Trump has more integrity than Obama?

and 2) Even care about their own national industries.

In the USA, 'national industry' is an oxymoron. Why should they? American industry is not their own. They have no share in its profit or decisions-making.

I thought protecting and investing in US industries was at the heart of Making America Great Again? Now according to you it is of no interest to Trump supporters?

Those CEOs, engineers, 'brainy elites',

You do understand this is not a single coherent package; nor is it the "elite" to which right-wing politicians generally allude when they're looking for scapegoats. The white liberal intelligencia and academics have little in common with car manufacturers and venture capitalists.

I am saying that they have SOPHISTICATED ENGINEERING in common with one another, something that Trump and his followers apparently DO NOT. Trump went bankrupt 6 times - that takes a lot of unsophistication to achieve such failure - and he was born into money - he was ahead of the game already. Now Jeff Bezos and Zuckerberg - there is some serious sophistication to those guys' self-built wealthy lives that will likely stop them from ever going bankrupt.

Inside the ultra-elite Explorers Club that counts Jeff Bezos, Buzz Aldrin, and James Cameron as members
Business Insider, Dec. 30, 2017

Inside Jeff Bezos’s DC Life
Washingtonian, April 22, 2018
Bezos’s January visit to the Jefferson came on the night that the Alfalfa Club, of which he is a member, convened its annual gathering. Formed in 1913, Alfalfa is Washington’s private confab of the economic and political elite. (An unofficial motto I heard while observing the promenade: “One long guest list, one-fourth our GDP.”) At this year’s dinner, Bezos was flanked by Patty Stonesifer—who serves on Amazon’s board and directs the DC nonprofit Martha’s Table—and billionaire fashion designer Tory Burch.


Something tells me that Trump supporters enjoy the convenience of Amazon online services. Bezos is part of the elite, however, and so when they hate on him, they are being hypocrites (but even if they are faced with that truth, they apparently don't care, because again, this post-truth wave isn't about philosophy - it's about cosmology - secret supernatural forces and so forth). Trump isn't elite in the vein that Bezos is (even Trump admits it as being so) - and the most glaringly obvious reason why he is not is because HE IS NOT SOPHISTICATED IN THOUGHT OR PRACTICE. To celebrate such a situation, however, and to suggest that a lack of sophistication is a virtue is seemingly heading for Amish and cargo cult territory. How can the outcome be otherwise?

A foreign adversary to the US would be wise to inflate this phenomenon as much as possible - to encourage Trump to aggressively target native industries in order to keep the cargo flowing to his followers,

What have they received so far?

Moral equivalency between Russian and American governments, just for starters.

If you are sincere about serving the truth [not Truth: anyone who claims a stake in that is automatically a charlatan], stop scatter-accusing and get down to cases.

I see us discussing all of this here as a great service to the Truth. You have no interest in it, it seems, with your pessimism and forgone asserted authority on the nature of Truth. You are entitled to your perspective as we all are here, but let's allow any truth to come out through our investigation and sharing of facts, rather than calling one another charlatans or whatever, and toting subjective perspective as objective fact. For when you refuse to engage in such a practice, you are a post-truthist of sorts yourself - a cargo-cultist and not a scientist.
User avatar
Mossling
Active Member
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: 02 Jul 2009


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on July 3rd, 2018, 5:40 am 

Braininvat » July 3rd, 2018, 1:23 am wrote:
In the USA, 'national industry' is an oxymoron. Why should they? American industry is not their own. They have no share in its profit or decisions-making. It has used them, made them sick, killed and discarded them; it has destroyed their class solidarity, self-esteem and identity, trashed their communities, sunk them into debt and abandoned them. All with the collusion of pro-business governments.


Anyone who hasn't read "Nickel and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich, and dwells on the above topic at all, owes it to themselves to get a copy. It exposes the cold and inhuman equations of corporate culture, and the generally amoral character of capitalism when it is not guided by a human ethos.

If those championing the corporate culture are not being empirical about humanity in general, however, then it seems they can find whatever magical answer they want in order to commit cold-hearted deeds. That is precisely the argument I am pursuing above - post-truthism is not a philosophical movement, it is a cosmological movement involving a mixture of competing Jewish prophecies, shapeshifting reptilian conspiracies, pseudo Christian 'name it and claim it' prosperity prayer and gospel, and so on and so forth. It is absolutely not about empirical logic, and so no wonder the US is in a huge mess as a result.

The sophisticated troll farmers, however, have apparently been doing a good job of using (or perhaps abusing) sophisticated empirical logic to frame the highly democratically-relevant empirical truth as something pointless to pursue, and thus allowing something more like a religious dictatorship - a cult - to emerge in its place.
User avatar
Mossling
Active Member
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: 02 Jul 2009


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on July 3rd, 2018, 11:52 am 

Mossling » July 3rd, 2018, 4:21 am wrote:Thus, ignorance is seriously afoot - on the level of cargo cults

OK. You connect dots. I don't see them in need of connecting, and i don't see the need for this degree of complication, or this many references to utterances by people who were talking about a variety of other subjects, to describe a political phenomenon that can be explained in a far more straightforward manner.

I have provided you with references to my statements, and I ask you to also reference your own if you continue to tout your opinion as 'fact' - "It's like this, it's like that... because I say so"...

I have stated opinions and observations from my personal experience. I have also provided references for factual statements. I don't know which ones you are objecting to.

and so could we have a bit more humility here, please?

No, I don't think so. Reasoning people have been far too humble for far too long.

Are you arguing that the protection these groups [Mennonites] enjoy from developed sophisticated US law and social and military technology is not a convenience for them?

No more so than it is to any other taxpayer. Far less than the people in cities who frequent high-rises, bars and gambling casinos, drive cars and ride subways.
I'm still not seeing how US militarism benefits anyone, anywhere.

[The Trump base ... want a fair chance and feel hard-done-by. ]
It seems many of his voters did at the peak of his campaign, but as we now know - he had the support of Russian troll farms. I wonder how many of those voters have changed their minds since Trump has taken office and he's been failing in so many ways.

I don't pretend to know. But that wasn't why I objected to your negative characterization of them all.

[have been spectacularly failing to feed large swathes of the population]
Hold on, what about the "Americans who had been given a reasonable (15 or 17th ranking in the world) education, and life-long access to public libraries, radio and television and unlimited ownership of motorized vehicles and automatic weapons"?

What about them? Americans did have every opportunity to know about nuclear weapons, and were not on a par with isolated Micronesian natives.
Moving that comment to a different context doesn't change any facts.

You can have a library and still be hungry. Your grandfather may have been taught civics, but recent state governments introduced ID in science class , shut down lunch programs and pulled funding out of public school in favour of charter schools. http://www.businessinsider.com/are-charter-schools-the-new-enron-scandal-2017-3 The radio and tv stations may have been bought up by Sinclair or similar consortia https://www.vox.com/2018/4/3/17180020/sinclair-broadcast-group-conservative-trump-david-smith-local-news-tv-affiliate Automobile cult has been so intensely pushed on Americans, it amounts to an addiction, deliberately induced by the purveyors of gasoline - like sugar https://wellnessretreatrecovery.com/sugar-and-dopamine-link-sweets-addiction/ and cigarettes https://www.healthychildren.org/English/family-life/Media/Pages/How-Cigarette-Advertisements-Influence-Teens.aspx. Even the best-meaning government action has an uphill struggle against it https://www.vox.com/2015/8/10/9118199/public-transportation-subway-buses As for the gun ownership, I don't see it enhancing political savvy or helping anyone get a job. https://www.citylab.com/life/2015/10/ghost-towns-of-the-21st-century/411475/ It's mostly the mass exporting of jobs, http://www.businessinsider.com/what-happened-to-american-jobs-in-the-80s-2017-7. and automation https://www.technologyreview.com/s/602869/manufacturing-jobs-arent-coming-back/

Of course they are not expecting to be literally fed food by the elite, but according to you they have all the necessary conditions to thrive...

No they do not. No, I have not said that.

- but no, there is some secret 'deep state agenda' to deprive them.... hmmm, where have we seen such thinking already referenced in this post?...

With all due respect, you do not appear to know very much about the US economy.

[Trump and his predecessors (of ever-descending integrity)]
So you're a Trump supporter?

What, in context of the statement from which that phrase was lifted [they offer an explanation], leads you to this conclusion?
You think Trump has more integrity than Obama?

Obama was never a Republican candidate; did not have the same political base or agenda, and thus is not part of the subset to which I referred.
Descending https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/descending does not mean "more".

[Why should they care?]
I thought protecting and investing in US industries was at the heart of Making America Great Again? Now according to you it is of no interest to Trump supporters?

More careful reading might reveal that I said: the working class voters have no vested or controlling stake in US industry; thus, it is not in any sense, "their own", as you characterized it, when you accused them of having no interest.
Yeah, they want the motorcycle and the bottle of whisky, but pride in national industries? Pfffft
They have no idea who actually owns these industries, https://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/hog/ownership-summary or where the suppliers are https://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/auto-manufacturing/5-materials-used-in-auto-manufacturing.htm or how raising tariff walls will affect these industries. https://globalnews.ca/news/4258050/tariffs-steel-aluminum-us-jobs-canada/
They're told that Trump is protecting their jobs, when he's actually destroying them, because they don't understand any more than he does about how trade and industry actually work.

Yes, there are lots of millionnaires and billionnaires much smarter than Trump. But if they're not helping the American working class, what should the American working class owe them? It's not as if they were getting these goods and services for free. It's not as if they were getting much benefit, acknowledgement or consideration for their labour. Why is it not enough to overpay when you buy the product, get hosed on the credit car debt, then bail them out again when too-big business fail? Do they also deserve love?

Trump is a liar. We knew this all along. Maybe some of the supporters did, too. Maybe they felt they had nothing to lose by choosing the liar who made them feel important and powerful. That's pretty much the gist of it, you know.

[M -- Trump to aggressively target native industries in order to keep the cargo flowing to his followers][ S -- What have they received so far?]
Moral equivalency between Russian and American governments, just for starters.

How does that benefit his followers? What about the "other nations"? What about the solutions?

I see us discussing all of this here as a great service to the Truth. You have no interest in it, it seems,

I have no interest in Capital T Truth, because there is no such thing. There are quadrillions of facts, accurate depictions or observation, sincere assertions of feelings and thoughts, honourable intentions, earnest promises, true statements. There are many truths. There is no single big, comprehensive Truth. I have found that people who claim access to such a Truth usually have a hidden agenda, involving some kind of exploitation of the simple minds that believe in it/him/her.
That may only be the subjective observation of an old curmudgeon, but it's true.

For when you refuse to engage in such a practice, you are a post-truthist of sorts yourself - a cargo-cultist and not a scientist.

I'm glad we're not calling each other names. That would be beneath us.
Serpent
Resident Member
 
Posts: 3159
Joined: 24 Dec 2011


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on July 3rd, 2018, 11:59 pm 

Serpent » July 4th, 2018, 12:52 am wrote:
Mossling » July 3rd, 2018, 4:21 am wrote:Thus, ignorance is seriously afoot - on the level of cargo cults

OK. You connect dots. I don't see them in need of connecting, and i don't see the need for this degree of complication, or this many references to utterances by people who were talking about a variety of other subjects, to describe a political phenomenon that can be explained in a far more straightforward manner./

It is not just me connecting the dots between cargo cultism and modern American culture. As was included previously, Richard Feynman connected these dots - is your scientific rigour more disciplined than his?

Cargo Cult Science
Caltech’s 1974 commencement address.
I think the educational and psychological studies I mentioned are examples of what I would like to call Cargo Cult Science. In the South Seas there is a Cargo Cult of people. During the war they saw airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now. So they’ve arranged to make things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas—he’s the controller—and they wait for the airplanes to land. They’re doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn’t work. No airplanes land. So I call these things Cargo Cult Science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but they’re missing something essential, because the planes don’t land.

[...]

But there is one feature I notice that is generally missing in Cargo Cult Science. That is the idea that we all hope you have learned in studying science in school—we never explicitly say what this is, but just hope that you catch on by all the examples of scientific investigation. It is interesting, therefore, to bring it out now and speak of it explicitly. It’s a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty—a kind of leaning over backwards. For example, if you’re doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid—not only what you think is right about it: other causes that could possibly explain your results; and things you thought of that you’ve eliminated by some other experiment, and how they worked—to make sure the other fellow can tell they have been eliminated.

Details that could throw doubt on your interpretation must be given, if you know them. You must do the best you can—if you know anything at all wrong, or possibly wrong—to explain it. If you make a theory, for example, and advertise it, or put it out, then you must also put down all the facts that disagree with it, as well as those that agree with it.


This speech gets to the very heart of the scientific method and its approach to Truth. Again - it is not my personal opinion or an obsession with Melanesian peoples - whom you seem to 'otherise' in an apparent racist way - like those peoples' human psychology could not be relevant to people in the US today because they are "the denizens of some island".

Reasoning people have been far too humble for far too long.

And yet you say that the Truth with a capital T cannot be known, whilst you speak in a style of absolute certainty. Your whole method of investigating topics and what you consider possible are out of sync. You think that no absolutes can ever be arrived at, but you use language that communicates absolute conviction (which is not an academic scientific mode of communication). You seem to be severely lacking rigour in this respect.

Are you arguing that the protection these groups [Mennonites] enjoy from developed sophisticated US law and social and military technology is not a convenience for them?

No more so than it is to any other taxpayer.

Right, exactly - so here we have an example of people who are anti-modern sophistication enjoying the benefits of modern sophistication. And I say that Trumpists - the poor ignorant superstitious deep state conspiracy theorists - similarly intellectually unsophisticated - bite Bezos' hand (strip him of the social value represented by his hard work), whilst also enjoying the convenience of the sophisticated services that he has engineered - just like a cargo cultist does and would.

[have been spectacularly failing to feed large swathes of the population]
Hold on, what about the "Americans who had been given a reasonable (15 or 17th ranking in the world) education, and life-long access to public libraries, radio and television and unlimited ownership of motorized vehicles and automatic weapons"?

What about them? Americans did have every opportunity to know about nuclear weapons, and were not on a par with isolated Micronesian natives.

Exactly, that seems to make the situation even more deplorable. They just don't want to think rationally about the cosmos - and that's their choice, but they cannot demand the social responsibilities and benefits awarded to a rational person by a governing body if that is their choice.

Automobile cult has been so intensely pushed on Americans, it amounts to an addiction, deliberately induced by the purveyors of gasoline - like sugar

Oh, so there CAN be subversive cultish behaviours occurring in modern American society? But, just the cult-like mechanisms that you choose to identify?


- but no, there is some secret 'deep state agenda' to deprive them.... hmmm, where have we seen such thinking already referenced in this post?...

With all due respect, you do not appear to know very much about the US economy.

Don't be coy - say what you are thinking. Are there people scribbling mystical signs on pieces of paper and somehow accessing the cargo?

[Why should they care?]
I thought protecting and investing in US industries was at the heart of Making America Great Again? Now according to you it is of no interest to Trump supporters?

More careful reading might reveal that I said: the working class voters have no vested or controlling stake in US industry; thus, it is not in any sense, "their own", as you characterized it, when you accused them of having no interest.

Lol, yes when I said " Even care about their own national industries", I meant that they literally own all of the national industries themselves. Really? Is that how you read English?

National industries belong to their nation, which in turn belong to the nationalists who claim the nation as 'theirs.'

Do you still maintain that Trump supporters - US nationalists - do not care about the national industries that belong to US owners and employ US workers?

Yeah, they want the motorcycle and the bottle of whisky, but pride in national industries? Pfffft
They have no idea who actually owns these industries, https://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/hog/ownership-summary or where the suppliers are https://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/auto-manufacturing/5-materials-used-in-auto-manufacturing.htm or how raising tariff walls will affect these industries. https://globalnews.ca/news/4258050/tariffs-steel-aluminum-us-jobs-canada/
They're told that Trump is protecting their jobs, when he's actually destroying them, because they don't understand any more than he does about how trade and industry actually work.

Sure, I am not saying that they are clued up - as before I maintain that this is cosmology-driven, not fact-driven. But I am pointing out to the irrationality of their political agenda, and how truth or Truth has no relevance to their lives other than the tangible receipt of (or expectation to receive) any cargo that they have been promised.

Yes, there are lots of millionnaires and billionnaires much smarter than Trump. But if they're not helping the American working class, what should the American working class owe them?

They owe the sophisticated engineers such as Bezos, at the very least, respectful recognition of the convenience that these individuals have brought to their lives, as well as the asking price for that convenience. If they don't want the convenience, then like the Mennonites, they can use their old ways.

It's not as if they were getting these goods and services for free.

Convenience means less energy expended = More energy saved than usual = Energy for free, so there is more freedom brought about by sophisticated engineering.

Trump is a liar. We knew this all along. Maybe some of the supporters did, too. Maybe they felt they had nothing to lose by choosing the liar who made them feel important and powerful. That's pretty much the gist of it, you know.

No, there's more - just out today, GOP-led Senate confirmed that there was tangible Russian support in warping media, as well as possibly hacking of electronic electoral systems, and so on. Trump can no longer tout his 'Russians did nothing' opinion without coming across as a Russian agent himself.

The online democratic truth - empirical Truth - was hijacked in subtle ways - through social media especially, and it is on-going, and with very little done to target it, because of Trump's constant efforts to remove Russia from the picture of his election success. It seems that this is continuing to undermine democratic Truth across the globe, as Trump continues to lie and undermine democratic process.

I see us discussing all of this here as a great service to the Truth. You have no interest in it, it seems,

I have no interest in Capital T Truth, because there is no such thing. There are quadrillions of facts, accurate depictions or observation, sincere assertions of feelings and thoughts, honourable intentions, earnest promises, true statements. There are many truths. There is no single big, comprehensive Truth.

Would you say that there is metabolism present right now - dynamic flow of being? How can that be denied as an absolute Truth?
User avatar
Mossling
Active Member
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: 02 Jul 2009


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby TheVat on July 4th, 2018, 10:09 am 

I think the length of recent posts is a deterrent to participation by other members.

It's possible that we are in more of an Age of the Factoid. People can be duped into holding a factoid bears a correspondence to the actual state of affairs. The difference between a fact and a factoid is the amount of free time and literacy you have.

Take tariffs. Complex stuff. Someone working minimum wage, maybe overtime, will only have time to grab a factoid.
User avatar
TheVat
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 6890
Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Black Hills
SciameriKen liked this post


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on July 4th, 2018, 10:53 am 

I'll try to keep it short

Mossling » July 3rd, 2018, 10:59 pm wrote:Richard Feynman connected these dots - is your scientific rigour more disciplined than his?

No, I'm saying that the current topic isn't science; that brilliance in physics doesn't make one an expert anthropologist; that in 1974, Donald Trump was barely a blot on Manhattan, so I may have more up-to-date information than Feynman, and that the whole cargo cult cult reference is irrelevant.
.. Melanesian peoples - whom you seem to 'otherise' in an apparent racist way

If otherise were an actual word, I might be guilty of it, except that they really are quite different from the dinizens of the rust- and bible belts, as well as from the Mennonites. How's that racist?

[protection Mennonites enjoy]
[No more so than it is to any other taxpayer. ]
Right, exactly - so here we have an example of people who are anti-modern sophistication enjoying the benefits of modern sophistication.

Except that your problem with them seems to be that they refuse sophisticated technologies.
They don't need much protection from law-enforcement - no riot police or smoke bombs, no high-tech forensics - because they have very little crime, and are rarely the victims of crime, since they do not amass desirable accoutrements of wealth.
Plus, they're also irrelevant to the current topic.

They just don't want to think rationally about the cosmos - and that's their choice, but they cannot demand the social responsibilities and benefits awarded to a rational person by a governing body if that is their choice.

Award? Since when is the US congress qualified or authorized to apportion citizens' responsibilities and benefits, on the basis of cosmological rationality?

so there CAN be subversive cultish behaviours occurring in modern American society?

There have always been cults, everywhere. Some subversive, many state-sanctioned. So?

Are there people scribbling mystical signs on pieces of paper and somehow accessing the cargo?

How should i know what's going on in the Vatican?

National industries belong to their nation, which in turn belong to the nationalists who claim the nation as 'theirs.'

This is why I coyly suggested that you don't fully grasp economics.

Do you still maintain that Trump supporters - US nationalists - do not care about the national industries that belong to US owners and employ US workers?

No. When you said they didn't care, I pointed out that they have been little reason to care. The poor schmucks probably do care, and that will only bring them more grief.

I am pointing out to the irrationality of their political agenda, and how truth or Truth has no relevance to their lives other than the tangible receipt of (or expectation to receive) any cargo that they have been promised.

Why dwell on the blatantly obvious?
It's your solutions I was interested in.

[They owe the sophisticated engineers such as Bezos, at the very least, respectful recognition of the convenience that these individuals have brought to their lives, as well as the asking price for that convenience. If they don't want the convenience, then like the Mennonites, they can use their old ways.

Well, it's a relief to see the Mennonites are not expected to kiss the foot that kicks them.


No, there's more - just out today, GOP-led Senate confirmed that there was tangible Russian support in warping media, as well as possibly hacking of electronic electoral systems, and so on. Trump can no longer tout his 'Russians did nothing' opinion without coming across as a Russian agent himself.

I don't see how you can shove that off on Ronjenac. Pretty sure he wasn't consulted.

The online democratic truth - empirical Truth - was hijacked in subtle ways - through social media especially, and it is on-going, and with very little done to target it, because of Trump's constant efforts to remove Russia from the picture of his election success. It seems that this is continuing to undermine democratic Truth across the globe, as Trump continues to lie and undermine democratic process.

Yes, and... still waiting for the proposed solution(s).

Would you say that there is metabolism present right now - dynamic flow of being? How can that be denied as an absolute Truth?

Like this: scientific rigour mortis (Balderdash!)
Serpent
Resident Member
 
Posts: 3159
Joined: 24 Dec 2011


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on July 5th, 2018, 1:57 am 

I agree with BIV - the posts are too long and full of unnecessary tangents. Let's strip it down somewhat.

Serpent » July 4th, 2018, 11:53 pm wrote:
Mossling » July 3rd, 2018, 10:59 pm wrote:Richard Feynman connected these dots - is your scientific rigour more disciplined than his?

No, I'm saying that the current topic isn't science; that brilliance in physics doesn't make one an expert anthropologist.

Science is science and there are good scientists and bad scientists. I think Richard Feynman is a lot more qualified than you to speak on the scientific process and the truth that it uncovers, as well as the associated psychology - basic human psychology revolving around simple economics universal to all human beings (via game theory and so forth). That also includes the economic strategies of less technologically-developed nations and communities such as found on Pacific islands, as well as Mennonites, and working class Americans.

I have not been comparing cultures, but rather economic strategies and those strategies' relationships to the empirical Truth (upon which democracy tends to rest). A cargo cult does not care about empirical Truth, nor do the Mennonites, and nor, apparently, do most of Trump's supporters - in that respect they do not care as much about democracy, and therefore are setting the scene for more of a tyranny. And it of course serves their agenda more to downplay the potential that empirical Truth holds for a society.

I have been outlying the kinds of mechanism by which this undermining can take place - a cargo cult mentality, where the form looks correct ("We love America and American Democracy! We love American cargo!"), but the thinking underneath the 'correct form' is adrift - into irrational superstitious conspiracy (illuminati deep state reptiles - Alex Jones' rhetoric, and so forth). Thus, my argument is that post-truthism is caught up in the complexities of form - tangles which can be unraveled with standard philosophical approaches, should people have an appetite for it.

They just don't want to think rationally about the cosmos - and that's their choice, but they cannot demand the social responsibilities and benefits awarded to a rational person by a governing body if that is their choice.

Award? Since when is the US congress qualified or authorized to apportion citizens' responsibilities and benefits, on the basis of cosmological rationality?

Because the demands of some irrational cosmologists are along the lines of thinking that they should still be able to enslave other human beings, or that their race should give them privileged access to jobs or national resources. It seems that these post-truthists want to drag the idea of a philosophical Truth through the mud (akin to how you seem to want to) so that they can get away with acts of racism.

The online democratic truth - empirical Truth - was hijacked in subtle ways - through social media especially, and it is on-going, and with very little done to target it, because of Trump's constant efforts to remove Russia from the picture of his election success. It seems that this is continuing to undermine democratic Truth across the globe, as Trump continues to lie and undermine democratic process.

Yes, and... still waiting for the proposed solution(s).

What are you talking about? I didn't promise any solutions - you're not my boss, lol. Stop being weird.

Would you say that there is metabolism present right now - dynamic flow of being? How can that be denied as an absolute Truth?

Like this: scientific rigour mortis (Balderdash!)

So you have just been trolling me all along?

I thought you were interested in using logic - again, more evidence that you are part of the problem of post-truth trolling, rather than any solution.
User avatar
Mossling
Active Member
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: 02 Jul 2009


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on July 5th, 2018, 2:16 am 

Braininvat » July 4th, 2018, 11:09 pm wrote:It's possible that we are in more of an Age of the Factoid. People can be duped into holding a factoid bears a correspondence to the actual state of affairs. The difference between a fact and a factoid is the amount of free time and literacy you have.

Take tariffs. Complex stuff. Someone working minimum wage, maybe overtime, will only have time to grab a factoid.

Possibly, and yet there are "alternative factoids" now also - I equate such a phenomenon with blind faith, however.

The entire universe appears to be infinite - infinite in time and space reaching in all directions - no boundary ever explicitly detected, so that is our current practical, empirical fact, and yet an "alternative 'fact'" is that there must be a boundary because God created the universe. For Creationists, that is their Truth, but it is not an empirically-observed truth. So factoid or not, I think it depends on whether it is an 'alternative factoid' or an empirical factoid. It remains, then, whether people have a respect for empirical truth, and the rational, technologically-developed and progressive world that it creates, or whether they think it is trumped by their alternative facts.

The Melanesian cargo cultists prefer to prioritise their alternative truths in order to attempt to obtain sophisticated products and services constructed from the engineering resulting from empirical Truth, and I do not see much difference in the economic strategies employed by Trumpists - both parties are hypocrites and potential socioeconomic cheaters in my eyes (just like many of their recent ancestors were - using slaves to do their own work), and they drag the empirical Truth through the mud probably because they know that it has the power to reveal them for the cheaters that they are!

Western courts of law tend to accept empirical evidence over mystical 'proof,' and so we are back to the US legal infrastructure as being the ultimate guardians of the Truth. Luckily for the US, Rosenstein appears to have his sword of Truth drawn now - admitting to having felt used by Trump in order to fire Comey, after being ragged by the Republican House 'alternative truthers' and firing back angrily. It seems that he is willing to become a martyr to America's hard-won Truth. And yet, on the money it says "In God we trust," so who knows how this is going to pan out. Maybe the US is just not ready for empirical Truth to rule the day - maybe that mantle needs to be carried by the Communist-leaning (and thus non-religious) Chinese?

Maybe empiricism will be more championed in the East, and truth is on the decline in the West due to the freedoms and 'emotional history' of religious institutions there?
User avatar
Mossling
Active Member
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: 02 Jul 2009


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on July 5th, 2018, 10:44 am 

[quote="Mossling » July 5th, 2018, 12:57 am"

Since when is the US congress qualified or authorized to apportion citizens' responsibilities and benefits, on the basis of cosmological rationality?]
Because the demands of some irrational cosmologists are along the lines of thinking that they should still be able to enslave other human beings, or that their race should give them privileged access to jobs or national resources.

Non-responsive.
[Yes, and... still waiting for the proposed solution(s).]
What are you talking about? I didn't promise any solutions - you're not my boss, lol. Stop being weird.

Non-responsive, hostile and off-topic.
Only by the cargo (public tax money and WH powers) being removed from their cult leader/god's possession will they start to 'listen' to something resembling logical discourse - to Truth.

[Means and method of accomplishing such a removal?
Likelihood and source of such logical discourse?]


[Would you say that there is metabolism present right now - dynamic flow of being? How can that be denied as an absolute Truth]
[Like this: scientific rigour mortis (Balderdash!)]
So you have just been trolling me all along?
[/quote]
No, but that above statement of yours about universal dynamic wasn't any logic I recognize.
Serpent
Resident Member
 
Posts: 3159
Joined: 24 Dec 2011


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby TheVat on July 6th, 2018, 12:17 pm 

The primary functional goal of an astroturfed campaign like this one is to manipulate public opinion by gaming online algorithms to amplify certain content and push it onto people’s social media feeds and to the top of search engine results.

The high volume of tweets associated with this campaign is also indicative of an effort to drown out real, reasoned debate between humans and replace it with content that pushes fringe or extreme viewpoints into the mainstream, ultimately hijacking and derailing public discourse. This particular psychological operation also aimed to use issues like race and sexual orientation to widen existing divides and promote infighting within the progressive movement.

Finally, astroturfed social media campaigns like the “WalkAway Movement” aim to create manufactured consensus, or the illusion of popularity, so that an idea or position without much public support appears more popular and mainstream than it actually is.


The article....

https://arcdigital.media/pro-trump-russ ... 359c1906d3

....well worth reading.
User avatar
TheVat
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 6890
Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Black Hills


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on July 6th, 2018, 12:33 pm 

Hozannah to those clever Dorseys and Zuckerbergs who bring us the convenient means of frittering away everything! Liberty, democracy, the only planet that would put up with us... Some cargo!

But, really, this has been coming down the same track since Watergate. It just kept getting easier, sleazier and more blatant. Now, Russia's hopped aboard - hey, why not? All part of globalization.
Serpent
Resident Member
 
Posts: 3159
Joined: 24 Dec 2011


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby TheVat on July 6th, 2018, 12:58 pm 

What really made my irony meter explode was the tactic they (the WalkAway Movement) are using of painting Democrats as the party of bigots and racists. This is a clever psychological trick because it plays off that inner 14 year old in everyone that loves to feel like it's exposing hypocrisy. Instead of reasoned dialog about solving problems and bringing real social justice (in the original, non-pejorative meaning of that phrase), it just pulls emotional levers. And uses statements completely devoid of evidentiary support.

It's frightening how effective these false flag postings and hoax "movements" are. Another variation I've seen a lot myself is the right-winger who poses as "an Independent," disavows all partisanship, and then systematically cranks out nothing but talking points from opinionators on Info Wars, Breitbart, and Fox News. I've seen a number of false flag operations like this. One I encountered at another website was poorly concealed - rather than bother to rephrase quotes, they would directly lift them from opinion pieces (not straight news stories), unaware that moderators at that website could google a sentence or two and find that the source was, invariably, from the far Right.
User avatar
TheVat
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 6890
Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Black Hills


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on July 6th, 2018, 1:05 pm 

Serpent » July 7th, 2018, 1:33 am wrote:Hozannah to those clever Dorseys and Zuckerbergs who bring us the convenient means of frittering away everything! Liberty, democracy, the only planet that would put up with us... Some cargo!

That's not everything - it is everything to a proud American who thinks that democracy is the only way for a country to be governed. But as the likes of Socrates pointed out, a more efficient situation can be a dynasty of wise philosopher kings who are recognised for their potential and are alloweed to dictate from top-down in a benevolent way. We see such benefits in China's record-breaking growth, for example - where there was a balance between elected officials and one governing party. I suggest broadening your understanding of political systems and recognising that the American political Way is not the absolute Way. Even Trump recognizes the benefits of King Jong Un's system in NK, for example.

As Socrates pointed out, it just depends on the philosophical wisdom of the ruler. If a nation invests in its empirical Truth - it's philosophical wisdom, and to the extent that Socrates invested in it, then perhaps they will make more rational, practical decisions. If they wish to impede and hamper the traditional schools of philosophical investigation in the manner that the Vatican did and continues to do, then so be it, and yet they choose non-empiricism at their peril, because economics - involving any trade wars and national industrial concerns - is all about mathematics and empirically-observed trends, not prayer, gut feelings, or superstitious conspiracy.

But, really, this has been coming down the same track since Watergate. It just kept getting easier, sleazier and more blatant. Now, Russia's hopped aboard - hey, why not? All part of globalization.

I thought Trump was anti-globalization? But now he is protecting Chinese globalized jobs (ZTE) whilst causing US industries to move manufacturing abroad due to his tariffs, and he's organised a summit with Russia...?

It seems that Trump is enabling the decline of the US, rather than protecting it or making it great again, and post-truth is his main vehicle. It allows him to tell whatever lie he wants and get away with it whilst preparing the global scene for his Trump towers and his offspring to survive on the globalised scene for centuries to come (Ivanka is heavily into China, for example). The hoodwinked electorate that he performs to are apparently just his vehicle to achieving all of that - a legacy to be admired for by his descendants for evermore - great grandpa Trump who sold out the US in order to receive THE WORLD. Mwahahahaha!
User avatar
Mossling
Active Member
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: 02 Jul 2009


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on July 6th, 2018, 1:17 pm 

Braininvat » July 7th, 2018, 1:58 am wrote:It's frightening how effective these false flag postings and hoax "movements" are. Another variation I've seen a lot myself is the right-winger who poses as "an Independent," disavows all partisanship, and then systematically cranks out nothing but talking points from opinionators on Info Wars, Breitbart, and Fox News. I've seen a number of false flag operations like this. One I encountered at another website was poorly concealed - rather than bother to rephrase quotes, they would directly lift them from opinion pieces (not straight news stories), unaware that moderators at that website could google a sentence or two and find that the source was, invariably, from the far Right.

Yes, I am getting a feeling that there is A LOT of this happening - Infowars as a concept is no joke - they see the literal war revolving around information being waged online - in order to win a war of perceptions - and so they organise an army of soldiers to fight on the side that appeals to them. And it does have an effect on those who are not intellectual enough to discern that these 'soldiers's arguments are pseudo-intellectual statements undermining intellectuality in general - it's like their motto is "The truth is that there is no truth" (a bit like Serpent's recent stance here). But how can one assert the truth that there is no truth?! Lol, they are undermining their own sentence - it is a logical fallacy, but the Trump followers are too moronic to recognise that. It doesn't matter, because if they get a whiff of pseudo-christian racist belief, then that feeling seems to be what they go with, rather than logic.
User avatar
Mossling
Active Member
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: 02 Jul 2009


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby SciameriKen on July 6th, 2018, 1:44 pm 

The question to me is whether there is a way to stop the runaway train? Actions have consequences and you can continue to believe what you believe until the moment the consequences hit. The tax plan is great right now - many have a bit more spending cash -- but in half a decade or sooner our country will be facing crushing deficits - social programs will have to slashed, standard of living will plummet. The err of their ways will then be seen and this is just one example not even touching on what is happening to the earth and environment right now. Its easy to take positions when there are no consequences - is there no way to avoid the consequences?
User avatar
SciameriKen
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 1429
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Location: Buffalo, NY


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on July 6th, 2018, 2:25 pm 

Braininvat » July 6th, 2018, 11:58 am wrote:What really made my irony meter explode was the tactic they (the WalkAway Movement) are using of painting Democrats as the party of bigots and racists. This is a clever psychological trick because it plays off that inner 14 year old in everyone that loves to feel like it's exposing hypocrisy.

But we've seen the same strategy - always accuse the other side of what they themselves are doing - used by Republicans for the past 50 years. Later, they can claim to be fair-and-balanced by admitting "blame on both sides" or "mistakes were made" or "the extreme right is almost as bad as the extreme left". All the while, having annihilated radicals, stomped all over socialism in any form, and hacked off their own progressive wing, dragging 'the center' ever Mussolini-ward. Do that loudly enough for long enough, and you have two, maybe three generations who can't recall what words used to mean.

It's frightening how effective these false flag postings and hoax "movements" are.

This is partly a function of peer pressure. When I was in high-school, peer-pressure was not an issue - whatever kind of wierdo you were (trust me on this!) you could find a social niche. No clique could do very much damage, because ultimately, the adults were in charge: it was the vice principal we all feared, not the queen Heather or top Jock. Just as the warders were in charge of prisons.
Somehow, in the US more than anywhere else, afaik, it became generally accepted that student bullies control the social life of schools and the most aggressive inmates run the prisons. This 'reality' was so popularized by mass entertainment media that everyone takes it for granted.
Whoever leads the biggest number of minions, rules.(and it's unsafe to be on the losing side). This mentality translates into the cyberworld as: Whatever gets the most hits must be the winner. (and it's unsafe to be on the losing side).
Last edited by Serpent on July 6th, 2018, 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Serpent
Resident Member
 
Posts: 3159
Joined: 24 Dec 2011


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on July 6th, 2018, 2:37 pm 

SciameriKen » July 6th, 2018, 12:44 pm wrote:The question to me is whether there is a way to stop the runaway train?

I don't see any. Honestly; it's not just my native pessimism. There is cascade of alt-right governments all around the world; the despots of the east and middle east have not relinquished their grip or popularity (but at least the aging Russians finally got mad at Putin). People everywhere are scared literally out of their minds and turning to blowhards who claim to have a simple solution. (All the while, blaming the harm they themselves have caused either through bad government or bad business on the progressives who spell them off every eight-year cycle and scramble to mitigate the effects.)

People are unlikely to make a complex of new neural connections under the stress of record heat-waves, rising oceans, unemployment and the onslaught of thirsty brown refugees.

Its easy to take positions when there are no consequences - is there no way to avoid the consequences?

Die before they come due.

More optimistically, a lot of dominoes have to topple over before we can see the real landscape again.
Serpent
Resident Member
 
Posts: 3159
Joined: 24 Dec 2011


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on July 6th, 2018, 11:40 pm 

SciameriKen wrote:The question to me is whether there is a way to stop the runaway train? Actions have consequences and you can continue to believe what you believe until the moment the consequences hit.


Serpent » July 7th, 2018, 3:37 am wrote:More optimistically, a lot of dominoes have to topple over before we can see the real landscape again.

Maybe so. It seems that people who are undisciplined - who cannot administer and follow their own laws - tend to end up defaulting to the laws of nature in order to find a 'master'. The majority of the world may be post-truth, but they are not post-gravity, or post-senessence, and not post-game theory either.

As I have stated time and again on this forum, Robert Axelrod's book The Evolution of Cooperative Behaviour, part of his work for which he was awarded the National Medal of Science by Obama, points out how the laws of nature - the raw economics behind the cooperation of living systems, rewards classical virtue - what Axelrod calls 'nice' behaviour. So if you want more faith in our humanity and optimism for the future of our world, I suggest beginning there. Classical Virtue is indeed the Way for prosocial - optimum - longterm gains.

This is the apparent truth behind our resource-dependent existence, no matter any rhetoric, and 'money talks' - just look at the economic gains China has reaped, and they still emphasise classical Virtue (it is the what the title of the Tao Te Ching, their Daoist Bible, emphasises as the number on priority (what Socrates also emphasised) - 'the Way of Virtue Classic'). Here is a nice scientific intro to that wisdom:



The West had better re-wise up to this stuff, or else nature will do it for them - albeit more painfully than when self-administered...
User avatar
Mossling
Active Member
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: 02 Jul 2009


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby d30 on July 6th, 2018, 11:47 pm 

One wishes 1940s and 50s journalism icon, Edward R. Murrow were here, to see what he could say that might tilt politics and society at least a little back toward truth, objectivity, impartiality, scientific thinking. Alas, whatever he would say would be forgotten in the next 24-hour news cycle.

Others one wishes we could hear from about our contemporary American crisis: Martin Luther King Jr., Thurgood Marshal (Sup. Ct. Justice circa 1970s), Wm. O. Douglas (Sup. Ct. Justice circa 1930s-60s), and, of course, F.D.R.

For an idea what F.D.R. would say today, refresh your memory of those long-lost days of humanitarian-government in this excerpt from his speech 3 days before the 1936 election (which he then won in a huge landslide, indicating a big swath of the American public was fed up with power/wealth abusers):

"We had to struggle with the old enemies of peace—business and financial monopoly, speculation, reckless banking, class antagonism, sectionalism, war profiteering.

They had begun to consider the Government of the United States as a mere appendage to their own affairs. We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.

Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me—and I welcome their hatred.

I should like to have it said of my first Administration that in it the forces of selfishness and of lust for power met their match. I should like to have it said of my second Administration that in it these forces met their master."

That excerpt is nearly half way into the speech, which you can read at this URL:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=15219
d30
Member
 
Posts: 246
Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Location: San Diego area


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on July 7th, 2018, 12:22 am 

d30 » July 7th, 2018, 12:47 pm wrote:For an idea what F.D.R. would say today, refresh your memory of those long-lost days of humanitarian-government in this excerpt from his speech 3 days before the 1936 election (which he then won in a huge landslide, indicating a big swath of the American public was fed up with power/wealth abusers)

Yes, traditionally it seems that the pendulum has swung left and right in the hope that an equilibrium can be achieved in the process, but at the moment it appears that the pendulum is swinging chaotically all over the place due to the side-winds of hijacked democratic communication tech. Paranoid alt-right false flag 'info militia' insurgencies on social media and opinion forums - like on youtube and news article comment sections are blurring the democratic opinion representations, as well as role of philosophical logic in modern society. The championing of 'The Truth is that there is no Truth' is the madness that is causing the pendlum to go even wilder it seems - a descent into irrationality that causes panic, which in turn feeds more irrationality - in a negative feedback-loop. The punk movement wished for Anarchy, but did they want it in this form?

Image

And Socrates pointed out this inherent fault in Democracy - that without a deeper understanding of Truth, chaos and misfortune are on the cards.

Image

Thus, if the West is not wise enough to employ a rational democracy, then perhaps they deserve a 'strong man' tyrant? I think the existential implosion for the average US citizen in this light, however, is that the US is constitutionally opposed to such a potential - the only potential that could possibly help them out of their anti-philosophical predicament (I am apparently the only one on this thread, for example, who is a keen champion of classical Virtue and Socratic Inquiry).

At least the UK still have the option of a philosopher King on the table - by defaulting to their monarchy. Prince William seems like a nice enough guy - everyone in Britain knows that he's got the country's back when democracy is hijacked in this way. Perhaps that psychological dimension eases the pressure on the British somewhat, as they are Brexited - seemingly through hijacked democratic process in the same vein to how US politics has been, whilst the US feels like it has trapped itself into the downside of democracy and there is no way out unless they retreat on their whole Independence ideal?

For the US cannot apparently have 'In God we Trust' on their money, whilst also hoping to live by Enlightenment ideals, where the rational truth that God may not exist in the biblical sense is a reasonable and practical notion. There is an apparent inherent schizophrenia in the US mindset here I believe, and if it is not treated with care, it may just commit suicide, and perhaps pull a few global table cloths with it on the way down.
User avatar
Mossling
Active Member
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: 02 Jul 2009


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on July 7th, 2018, 12:58 am 

‘In God We Trust’ Doesn’t Mean What You Think It Does
The Daily Beast, 01.24.16
The use of the phrase “In God We Trust” in U.S. currency first appeared in 1864. Salmon P. Chase, Lincoln’s Secretary of the Treasury in the middle of the Civil War, received a letter from a Pennsylvanian minister requesting some recognition of God in a national motto. The phrase found its way onto all U.S. currency in the thick of the Cold War (around the same time, and for the same reasons, that “under God” was added to the Pledge of Allegiance). As part of the cultural war on godless communism, a 1955 congressional vote elected to place the motto on all U.S. money. Certainly in some respects Newdow is correct to see the motto as a modern innovation.

If removing religious affiliations from U.S. currency is the goal, you have to wonder if Newdow has missed the 100-pound truncated pyramid in the room. The fairly innocuous phrase “In God We Trust” is far less specific than the occult imagery that currently adorns the common one dollar bill.

The most prominent iconography on the $1 are the eagle and the pyramid, which together constitute the Great Seal of the United States. The pyramid is a throwback to ancient Egypt, but is in many ways a much tamer version of the seal that Franklin and Jefferson envisioned. Noted Egyptophiles, the version that they initially supported included an Egyptian pharaoh, seated on a chariot and passing through the parted waters of the Red Sea. The motto they preferred was “rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.” Anyone familiar with the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea can hear the thinly veiled threat. Pharaoh doesn’t stay atop that chariot for long. Franklin loved his version of the seal so much that he adopted it as his personal motto. And today the conservative right is fond of invoking Franklin’s motto in political debates.

The final design for the Great Seal, which was accepted by Congress in 1782, was presented by Charles Thomson, a Philadelphia merchant, who finalized the design by combining the ideas of three separate committees. Thomson said that the pyramid symbolized “strength and duration” and that the Latin inscription “Novus Ordo Seclorum” (A New Order of the Ages) referred to a new form of government and “the beginning of the new American Era.” The disembodied eye that floats atop the pyramid, he added, with the inscriptions “Annuit Coeptis,” refers to the ways in which Providence favored the American cause.

But others have questioned Thomson’s strait-laced explanation. They see the mottos and symbolism of the seal as emblems of the philosophical secret societies the Freemasons and the Rosicrucians. Today, membership in these groups is available to almost anyone interested in paying dues; but in the 18th century these secret organizations were open only to the intellectual and social elite.

For those who subscribe to the idea that our currency is originally Masonic, there’s a lot to work with.

So the roots of post-truthism go deep into the American psyche - the towers have been built on very shaky non-secular and narrow ideals. Maybe there is nothing that can stop their collapse.

Those who dwelt in democratic enclaves and branded socialist ideals as utopian impossibilities, may now have to face the Truth that their own Way is no better, with their utopian dreams of being 'God's chosen country' - "Providence favoring the American cause" - being shattered before their very eyes.
User avatar
Mossling
Active Member
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: 02 Jul 2009


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on July 10th, 2018, 3:19 am 

Michael Cohen sending a clear message to Trump by speaking 'real truth,' sources say
CNN, July 10, 2018
Michael Cohen, the President's former fixer and ultimate loyalist, is sending a clear signal to President Donald Trump and his attorney, Rudy Giuliani, that "the truth is not you(r) or your client's friend," according to sources with knowledge of Cohen's thinking.
Two sources familiar with Cohen's thinking say he has "hit the reset button" and is continuing his commitment to speak the "real truth."
In particular, the same sources say Giuliani is wading into dangerous territory when he asks Cohen to "tell the truth" about the Trump Tower meeting with Donald Trump Jr. and Russian meddling in the election.

Haha, if one ditches the truth, it is most definitely not one's friend.
User avatar
Mossling
Active Member
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: 02 Jul 2009


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on July 17th, 2018, 4:31 am 

FOX news' Shep Smith:

"The president of the United States will not say he believes his own government over President Putin. Now the stunned reaction from across America - including those in the president's own party. [...] SHAMEFUL, DISGRACEFUL, TREASONOUS - three of the descriptions of what President Trump did today in Helsinki. [...] President Trump declined to stand up for his own people and instead embraced Valdimir Putin. The Republican senator John McCain said the president's performance was disgraceful, as he spoke from the same script as Putin, and that the summit was a tragic mistake - that Mr. Trump abased himself before a tyrant."



CNN's Cuomo::

2:51 - "Party is not that important, the truth, however, is, and I see a realization in this unity. The realization is this: the truth is a side, and we were all on the right side in this moment in a way that I haven't seen in a long time. And in that moment Trump's luck ran out - he wasn't going to escape from doubling down and insulting his way out of it. He tried - 'Russia did this during Obama, servers are missing - the FBI agent - he's the real culprit.' It all washed over us like the whining of a child who won't go to bed. The GOP can't dismiss this as style, and say 'Let's wait and see'. We waited too long and the world did see and heard what President Donald Trump said."



Post-truth politics is really heating up now!
User avatar
Mossling
Active Member
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: 02 Jul 2009


Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on July 27th, 2018, 12:27 am 

Here is Trump dictating his post-truth authority in one direct soundbite:

0:21 - "Remember - what you are seeing and what you are reading is not what's happening."



And returning to the 'cargo cult' theme - where an 'alternative truth' is invested in by political interests with the intention to more efficiently receive economic benefits, Trump is now in the process of bailing out the farmers that he has disenfranchised through his policies, just so that his 'blind followers' (those farmers) feel that their investment in his post-truth stance is paying off.

As I stated many posts ago - the only solution to this issue will be when the power to distribute public tax funds is taken away from Trump. This is because 'money talks' - a cargo cult leader can dictate whatever truth he wants to empirically-ignorant and philosophically uninterested masses because as long as they get their material benefits then they don't care what the real mechanism is behind the delivery of those benefits.

Socrates warned about this aspect of democracy - the potential for a charismatic populist leader who has no interest in empirical Truth to lead a society off a cliff. The most clear case being the failed Sicilian Expedition by Athens - " hampered from the outset by uncertainty in its purpose and command structure—political maneuvering in Athens swelled a lightweight force of twenty ships into a massive armada, and the expedition's primary proponent, Alcibiades, was recalled from command to stand trial before the fleet even reached Sicily".

Plato went on to utilise the major characters involved - Alcibiades (a prominent Athenian statesman, orator, and general. He was the last famous member of his mother's aristocratic family, the Alcmaeonidae, which fell from prominence after the Peloponnesian War. He played a major role in the second half of that conflict as a strategic advisor, military commander, and politician), who has aspects of Trump about him, and Laches (an Athenian aristocrat and general during the Peloponnesian War) - Steve Bannon? haha.

During the course of the Peloponnesian War, Alcibiades changed his political allegiance several times. "In Athens, the citizens did not, at first, believe the defeat. [...] When the magnitude of the disaster became evident, there was a general panic. Attica seemed free for the taking, as the Spartans were so close by in Decelea.

The defeat caused a great shift in policy for many other states, as well. States which had until now been neutral joined with Sparta, assuming that Athens's defeat was imminent. Many of Athens' allies in the Delian League also revolted, and although the city immediately began to rebuild its fleet, there was little they could do about the revolts for the time being. The expedition and consequent disaster left Athens reeling. Some 10,000 hoplites had perished and, though this was a blow, the real concern was the loss of the huge fleet dispatched to Sicily. Triremes could be replaced, but the 30,000 experienced oarsmen lost in Sicily were irreplaceable and Athens had to rely on ill-trained slaves to form the backbone of her new fleet.

In 411 BC, the Athenian democracy was overthrown in favour of an oligarchy, and Persia joined the war on the Spartan side.
"

As Hegel said - "We learn from history that we do not learn from history." Post-truthism was alive and well in Athens well over 2000 years ago.

Post-truthism is apparently the death of democracy in this respect - politics just becomes a race to the decadent bottom - war-mongering (NK, Iran), and unpunished severe licentiousness.

And when we see what the potential of such cargo cult socioeconomics holds - namely a modern-day Iron Age chieftain society (Tanna Island) stubbornly resisting the empirical insights that lead to the creation of the very cargo that they desire, then post-truth is indeed a dire situation for the West, as well as the world at large.

This is because small localised tribes seemingly become the only 'truth' anyone can believe in, and thus inter-cultural and humanitarian response efficiency becomes severely impeded. Significant numbers of children get separated from parents on the US border and locked up in cages, for example, thousands in Puerto Rico still without electricity, whole countries branded by the POTUS as "shithole", and so on and so forth... because truth is in the hands of a truth-dictator, not a truth-seeker, and cargo-cultism is now in full effect with farmers being basically bribed for their on-going blind support.

But as the saying goes - 'All is fair in love and war', and if it is in the judic God that America trusts, rather than empricism, then the masses have made their choice, and Socrates' lesson remains to be learnt the hard way.
User avatar
Mossling
Active Member
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: 02 Jul 2009


Previous

Return to Political Theory

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests