'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrity

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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on May 2nd, 2017, 5:21 pm 

Paul Anthony wrote:No President is omnipotent


And of course neither is (s)he supposed to be. (S)he has to be able to get things through Congress and the Senate and it has to be legal, etc. Obama was, of course, subjected to the same criticisms but his party didn't dominate. Trump, on the other hand, appears to be having problems with his own party and the courts (not to mention all the tax payers who don't appear to be supporting him either - which I suspect is why he is having so much trouble with his own party members who will be looking for their own re-election in the fore-seeable future).

It is easy to promise the moon but in order to live up to your promises and hope to get anything done, you need to be a reasonably competent politician in the center of US politics. Trump is not. Which seems to be why he can't get anything done when his own party is in power.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on May 2nd, 2017, 5:36 pm 

Forest_Dump » Tue May 02, 2017 2:21 pm wrote:

It is easy to promise the moon but in order to live up to your promises and hope to get anything done, you need to be a reasonably competent politician in the center of US politics. Trump is not. Which seems to be why he can't get anything done when his own party is in power.


You keep referring to the republicans as Trump's party. Trump didn't become a Republican until he decided to run for office. Republican voters elected him because they were fed up with their own party. He may be the first US president without the support of either party.

Sanders might have had the same problem, had he been elected. For his entire political life he was an Independent, going so far as to proudly declare himself a Socialist. He only became a Democrat to run for the presidency. Like Trump, his followers were primarily people who were disenchanted with their own party.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on May 2nd, 2017, 5:52 pm 

Paul Anthony wrote:You keep referring to the republicans as Trump's party. Trump didn't become a Republican until he decided to run for office.


But he became a Republican and ran on the Republican ticket as a Republican. Not an Independent. Trumps party is the Republican Party, not the Democratic Party, not the Green Party, not the Socialist party, etc. He or they may well have their regrets but I haven't heard any mention of his leaving the party. He is a Republican.

Paul Anthony wrote:Republican voters elected him because they were fed up with their own party.


Well we all have our own theories. Mine is that so many people thought it would be a blow out for Hillary that they decided not to bother. Republican voters voted for him because Republican voters vote for whoever is on the ticket as a Republican (if they vote at all) and Democratic voters vote for whoever is on the ticket as a Democrat (if they vote at all).

Sanders didn't get the nomination and Sanders didn't run, even as an Independent (or a Green or a Socialist, etc.).

You are not accusing Trump of another kind of election fraud now are you?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on May 2nd, 2017, 8:17 pm 

Forest_Dump » Tue May 02, 2017 2:52 pm wrote:Republican voters voted for him because Republican voters vote for whoever is on the ticket as a Republican (if they vote at all) and Democratic voters vote for whoever is on the ticket as a Democrat (if they vote at all).


You are ignoring the primaries, when Republican voters had SIXTEEN other choices. People rejected those candidates because they were rejecting politics as usual. The Republican party thought they could persuade the voters to accept Jeb Bush, the same way the DNC forced Hillary down the throats of the party faithful. But the DNC did it by sabotaging Sander's campaign. He had a strong following. Had he won the nomination, he might have prevailed against Trump.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on May 4th, 2017, 1:04 am 

Paul Anthony » May 3rd, 2017, 3:41 am wrote:He promised to repeal and replace Obamacare, but his alleged allies in Congress produced such a flawed alternative that failure was guaranteed.

He promised to build a wall, but can't without funding authorized by Congress.

He promised to defund Planned Parenthood, but, again, Congress.
[...]

His words give the impression that he is erratic but actions speak louder than words.

So if Trump promised to give you 100 bucks at lunch time today, and then you met him and he said "The situation is more complex than I thought - I went to the ATM but I've forgotten my bank card passcode so I'll need to visit the bank at some point but I'm too busy these days, so I don't know when, if ever, I'll be able to give you what I promised." Would you say his actions speak louder than his words? That he is not delivering on what he promised and that speaks for itself?

Promises are made in the spirit of "no matter what it takes, I'll deliver", and one trusts that that promising person has a clear, competent vision of the successful route that they are going to take. When Trump made his promises - some of which were promised to happen "so easily" within the first 100 days, he was operating on the basis of a businessman or salesperson entering into a contract with customers. Something tells me that he would never get away with that kind of activity as a businessman - as you say: actions speak louder than words. One can't just order dishes in a restaurant while giving the impression that one is going to stay there, eat, and then pay, and then run out of the restaurant as soon as the chef begins cooking the meal. That is basically what Trump has been doing. Pleading with the waiter that "the situation was more complicated than one thought" is not going to help much.

Trump bragged of his knowledge of how simple and easy running the government would be - it's not like he even doubted his potential even for a moment. And now "actions speak louder than words". Indeed.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on May 4th, 2017, 10:06 am 

And it's rather odd that a Republican president's excuse, when he doesn't deliver on promises, is "Congress," when there is a Republican majority.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on May 4th, 2017, 1:04 pm 

Braininvat » Thu May 04, 2017 7:06 am wrote:And it's rather odd that a Republican president's excuse, when he doesn't deliver on promises, is "Congress," when there is a Republican majority.


Not at all. A majority of Republican voters favored Trump. A majority of Republican politicians do not.

The Democrats were not the only losers in the election. The establishment - on both sides - lost. But they only lost the presidency. They still control Congress.

Trump's biggest mistake was thinking being president would be like being a CEO. He campaigned as a disruptor, someone who would "drain the swamp", as if he could say "you're fired" to anyone who stood in his way. What he didn't realize is a CEO's power is limited by the Board of Directors. Congress is the Board of Directors.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on May 4th, 2017, 1:18 pm 

I agree with all that. What I meant is that it's odd that Trump seems unable to grasp the most elementary principle of the party system in this country, i.e. what it means to be a Republican. If you run as a Republican, and have any plan of implementing promises made, then you have to work with Republicans to achieve that. It's not just that Trump wasn't a politician, it's that he fails to grasp the rudiments of what politics is ("the art of the possible") and shows no sign of a learning curve. He is such a narcissist that he cannot own up to any neglect or deficiency or ignorance on his part, and so he never takes the blame for his failures.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on May 4th, 2017, 1:34 pm 

Braininvat » Thu May 04, 2017 10:18 am wrote: He is such a narcissist that he cannot own up to any neglect or deficiency or ignorance on his part, and so he never takes the blame for his failures.


In that sense, he really is a politician. :)
Didn't Obama blame the Republicans? Has Hillary ever blamed herself for losing the election?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on May 4th, 2017, 6:54 pm 

Good one! (the quip)

Someone told me they saw HRC do an interview a couple days ago in which she blamed herself. If i get a link, will post it.

Would be nice to hear a "Harry Truman" once in a while.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on May 9th, 2017, 1:22 am 

It's interesting the prominence fake news is given in this short advertisement for the POTUS aired very recently:

If you've got the money, your narrative becomes 'the truth'.

"You wouldn't know it from watching the news" - lol. What a sad sad and weird time we live in...
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Athena on May 9th, 2017, 12:08 pm 

It is very hard to give people something they have never had, a national pension plan, a good education system, a national health plan. It is hard to take away these things when people realize the benefits of them.

I think people thought they wanted what Trump promised, but when they realize the cost, they may come to regret not thinking things through earlier. And I think that is the real political problem. Many things seem really good when we do not consider their cost. That is fast thinking and we are are in fast thinking mode most the time. Realizing the cost is slow thinking, it takes a lot of effort and only a few people spend much time in the slow thinking mode, because it consumes so my energy and is a much greater effort.

The Trump video is uplifting and feels good, and many people what to believe it is true. I think they are more apt to believe it is true if they believe there is a God who takes care of us, and Trump is a man of God, doing the will of God. What would be their reason for not accepting something that feels so good and fits their belief system? What do they have to lose?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on May 9th, 2017, 1:07 pm 

Athena » Tue May 09, 2017 9:08 am wrote:It is very hard to give people something they have never had, a national pension plan, a good education system, a national health plan. It is hard to take away these things when people realize the benefits of them.

I think people thought they wanted what Trump promised, but when they realize the cost, they may come to regret not thinking things through earlier. And I think that is the real political problem. Many things seem really good when we do not consider their cost. That is fast thinking and we are are in fast thinking mode most the time. Realizing the cost is slow thinking, it takes a lot of effort and only a few people spend much time in the slow thinking mode, because it consumes so my energy and is a much greater effort.

The Trump video is uplifting and feels good, and many people what to believe it is true. I think they are more apt to believe it is true if they believe there is a God who takes care of us, and Trump is a man of God, doing the will of God. What would be their reason for not accepting something that feels so good and fits their belief system? What do they have to lose?


True. The same can be said for those who believed in Bernie Sanders. What's not to like about free college tuition, free health care and a $15.00 minimum wage? Why ask who will pay for it?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on May 9th, 2017, 1:39 pm 

Paul Anthony wrote:True. The same can be said for those who believed in Bernie Sanders. What's not to like about free college tuition, free health care and a $15.00 minimum wage? Why ask who will pay for it?


Now Paul, why not repeat the tax cut mantra? "They will pay for themselves." Sounds just as viable to me - people are better educated they will make more money and thus pay more taxes. They will be healthier and live longer redusing health care costs, loosing less time from work, having less money lost to the bureaucracy of HMO's and paying more taxes, etc. (As a Canadian I am astounded at the amount of money you guys are willing to throw at the HMO industry that, IMHO, shouldn't even exist.)
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on May 9th, 2017, 2:20 pm 

Forest_Dump » Tue May 09, 2017 10:39 am wrote:
Now Paul, why not repeat the tax cut mantra? "They will pay for themselves." Sounds just as viable to me - people are better educated they will make more money and thus pay more taxes. They will be healthier and live longer redusing health care costs, loosing less time from work, having less money lost to the bureaucracy of HMO's and paying more taxes, etc. (As a Canadian I am astounded at the amount of money you guys are willing to throw at the HMO industry that, IMHO, shouldn't even exist.)


I agree with your assessment of our health insurance industry. Much could be corrected by Congress if it were not for the lobbyists and their money.

But free college is not likely to better educate too many people. STEM studies generally assure high wage jobs (except when companies are allowed to hire foreigners for less) but not everyone has what it takes to get a degree in the sciences. Most degrees qualify the graduate for a job as a barista in a coffee shop - if the graduate has enough of a work ethic to show up. So, no, free college is unlikely to pay for itself.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on May 11th, 2017, 12:26 am 

Oh boy...

SNL don't even have to get creative with this one. Haha.

In the comments section the Trump supporters are calling "Fake news!", because there's no good evidence that has been published, but the damage has been done nevertheless.

Image

There were multiple reporters present.

Apparently Trump had impulsively fired Comey and hadn't briefed Spicer. So Spicer was sent out to face the questions as usual, but without any decent post-truth strategy. This Mark Twain quote comes to mind:

Image

Two unnamed whitehouse sources have said that Trump is very upset with Spicer's poor performance. For the rest of the week he's being replaced by Sarah Huckabee Sanders. Ouch. As I've been saying, the raw economics are playing out to the tune of the Truth...

The idea of Truth was not made important to society out of some superstitious or lofty ideology - it was rooted in practical reality. The elite Aztec warriors believed that they could make the Spanish missiles move around them using spoken magic spells. The Truth revealed itself soon enough.

Image

Now major Republicans are even feeling the pressure of the post-truth movement - they are expressing public negativity over the Comey firing. Are these some cracks appearing in the post-truth dam?

Maybe they are just having a hard time keeping up with who 'the enemy' is - Russia supports Trump, then the Syria missiles, "Thanks Comey, now lock up Hillary!", then "Comey you're fired for what you did to Hillary!"... so confusing. What a mess. That's not how to lead an efficient task-force - the Spanish invaders or the Romans knew exactly who they were fighting...
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on May 12th, 2017, 2:07 am 

More cracks showing...

Fox News allowing commenting on Comey's firing possibly related to Trump's Putin connection:

I don't think the reporter was as surprised as the video poster is making out in the title, tbh.
And so what happened to all this "the Russia probe is all just a Liberal wild goose chase" rhetoric? (Hmm, Paul ;P)

Trump tried to scapegoat Deputy Attorney General for Comey's firing, but then he threatened to resign unless the truth about Trump wanting to fire Comey and look for a reason was put out there:

Many of Trump's team, including at the press briefing had already given the Deputy Att. Gnrl. as the scapegoat, however, which made the next video all the more awkward viewing:



This has drawn so much more attention to the Russia link now, and even FOX News is appearing to begin to jump ship...

And let's not even get started on how American journalists were excluded from Trump's private meeting with the Russians in the oval office yesterday so that no photos could be published on 'the Russia topic', only for Russian news to publish photos that Trump had been promised would not be making him angry that he had been lied to. Maybe he had just been told some alternative facts by the Russians *shrug*. No tears are being shed for Trump on that front, though, I'm guessing - as the saying goes:

Image

Image

After all this is done and dusted, I'm wondering whether the next generation of children will be brought up with the saying: "Tell the truth or you'll end up like Trump did!"
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on May 13th, 2017, 3:14 am 

Fox news is all over the lies now - endgame in sight?


Trump's official letter firing Comey says he is acting on a recommendation from Rosenstein (Deputy AG), and Pence commincated that 'fact' also, and then in the NBC interview Trump said that it was his own idea to fire Comey before he even spoke to Rosenstein.

Trump then said Comey told him that he was not personally under investigation, and now Comey has said that he never said such a thing, and Trump is posturing with potential tape evidence.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on May 13th, 2017, 10:04 am 

Is it okay to now be thoroughly sick of the Trump administration? I was in my teens and not very politically aware during the Nixon final year, but now am starting to understand better the big national sigh of relief in 1974, and that Gerald Ford quote about "our national nightmare is over."
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on May 13th, 2017, 10:47 am 

Braininvat wrote:Is it okay to now be thoroughly sick of the Trump administration? I was in my teens and not very politically aware during the Nixon final year, but now am starting to understand better the big national sigh of relief in 1974, and that Gerald Ford quote about "our national nightmare is over."


Sorry but on this one I think you better be prepared for a very long haul. Here's some of my take.

It might actually be a bit of a good thing is the gong show goes on for a while longer (3 1/2 more years?). I think I can safely predict that there will lots more we haven't seen yet about what Trump has been up to that just hasn't come to light and I have no doubt there will be more to come.

And then I don't even want to imagine what will happen if something truly big on an international scale happens. North Korea does something? Iran? Another 9/11? Some other genocide, etc., bubbles up?

And what if the Republicans really do get their own agendas back in focus? What will the educational system become? What about environmental issues? Their various social engineering agendas such as gay rights, women's rights, racial issues?

The political scene has been immeasureably changed. The strength of the party system and democracy was based on the willingness and need to listen to each other and work for acceptable compromise. That seems to be gone with nobody on either side willing to even consider any kind of compromise or finding common ground. Now all look only for wedge issues to increase polarization. How much longer can the US last as any kind of viable political entity. Its only going to get pulled apart with the question ultimately being how violently?

One thing I have begun to appreciate more is that often what appears to be short term problems can have tremendously long term consequences. Just as an example, where I am the history of residential schools continues to have huge repercussions. I can see the argument that it seemed like a good idea in some ways at the time (i.e., providing a higher quality of education to help kids meet the demands of the present and future) but the immensity of the problems created, ranging from sexual and physical abuse to what is known as ethnocide, will literally have an impact for generations yet to come. I hate to imagine the long term consequences of Trump and the bigger contextual processes that put him in power.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on May 13th, 2017, 11:11 am 

Of course I also get a tremendous amount of amusement imagining a scene ripped right out of Howard Stern's movie "Body Parts" where Spicer is trying to take a leak when he hears of Trump sending out a series of tweets. You just have to wonder how often he has to change his pants before an unexpected press briefing.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on May 13th, 2017, 9:47 pm 

Forest_Dump » Sat May 13, 2017 7:47 am wrote:

The political scene has been immeasureably changed. The strength of the party system and democracy was based on the willingness and need to listen to each other and work for acceptable compromise. That seems to be gone with nobody on either side willing to even consider any kind of compromise or finding common ground. Now all look only for wedge issues to increase polarization. How much longer can the US last as any kind of viable political entity. Its only going to get pulled apart with the question ultimately being how violently?



Yes, the country is being pulled apart. If it seems like I'm agreeing with you, take another look. Compromise?
How does a conservative compromise with people who accuse him of bigotry and racism whenever he disagrees?
How do you compromise with people who think you have no right to an opinion?

This writer says it better than I can.

https://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2017/05/13/the-liberal-lie-so-big-it-may-one-day-split-the-country-n2326353?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl&newsletterad=
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby bangstrom on May 14th, 2017, 2:13 am 

Paul Anthony » May 13th, 2017, 8:47 pm wrote:
Yes, the country is being pulled apart. If it seems like I'm agreeing with you, take another look. Compromise?
How does a conservative compromise with people who accuse him of bigotry and racism whenever he disagrees?
How do you compromise with people who think you have no right to an opinion?

This writer says it better than I can.

https://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2017/05/13/the-liberal-lie-so-big-it-may-one-day-split-the-country-n2326353?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl&newsletterad=


Your article is the perfect example of the sort of intolerant vitriol you appear to be against. Can you not see the man in the mirror?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on May 14th, 2017, 8:43 am 

I think it is pretty clear that the writer of that piece isn't interested in finding any common ground. I would call that an example of very uncompromising partisan flame fanning. Nonetheless I would certainly grant the central point that the vitriolic finger-pointing, if not hate-mongering, is more than abundant on both sides of the political spectrum.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on May 14th, 2017, 9:36 am 

Yeah, the Example given where you caricature a position as heartless, is a method seen on both sides. Liberals say that cons hate women or want to rob children of healthcare, cons say that libs don't care about the victims of crimes or veterans. Both are engaged in sophistry, painting the other side as monsters. Clearly, talk show hosts who just watched their newborn brush with death....are not well-suited to make public policy.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on May 15th, 2017, 3:18 am 

Agreed, the term I see levelled at one another from both sides is 'tard' - an accusation of lower intelligence. This is extremely unenlightened behavior, and thus why I started a thread questioning whether the enlightenment movement really made such a difference to western society.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on May 17th, 2017, 2:50 am 

Getting pretty serious now...

Comey Memo Says Trump Asked Him to End Flynn Investigation
'Failing' New York Times, MAY 16, 2017
President Trump asked the F.B.I. director, James B. Comey, to shut down the federal investigation into Mr. Trump’s former national security adviser, Michael T. Flynn, in an Oval Office meeting in February, according to a memo Mr. Comey wrote shortly after the meeting.

“I hope you can let this go,” the president told Mr. Comey, according to the memo.

The documentation of Mr. Trump’s request is the clearest evidence that the president has tried to directly influence the Justice Department and F.B.I. investigation into links between Mr. Trump’s associates and Russia. Late Tuesday, Representative Jason Chaffetz, the Republican chairman of the House Oversight Committee, demanded that the F.B.I. turn over all “memoranda, notes, summaries and recordings” of discussions between Mr. Trump and Mr. Comey.

Such documents, Mr. Chaffetz wrote, would “raise questions as to whether the president attempted to influence or impede” the F.B.I.

Mr. Comey wrote the memo detailing his conversation with the president immediately after the meeting, which took place the day after Mr. Flynn resigned, according to two people who read the memo. It was part of a paper trail Mr. Comey created documenting what he perceived as the president’s improper efforts to influence a continuing investigation. An F.B.I. agent’s contemporaneous notes are widely held up in court as credible evidence of conversations.

Mr. Comey shared the existence of the memo with senior F.B.I. officials and close associates. The New York Times has not viewed a copy of the memo, which is unclassified, but one of Mr. Comey’s associates read parts of it to a Times reporter.

"I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go,” Mr. Trump told Mr. Comey, according to the memo. “He is a good guy. I hope you can let this go.”
Document: Representative Jason Chaffetz’s Letter to the F.B.I.

Mr. Trump told Mr. Comey that Mr. Flynn had done nothing wrong, according to the memo.


Paul Ryan, state Republicans want answers about Trump meeting with Russians
Channel 3000 News, May 16, 2017
Trump on Tuesday defended his right to share "facts pertaining to terrorism" and airline safety with Russia. Trump's tweets did not say whether he revealed classified information about the Islamic State group.

Ryan spokesman Doug Andres says Ryan "hopes for a full explanation of the facts from the administration."

Republican U.S. Rep. Mike Gallagher is a former Marine counter-intelligence officer. He says regardless of what was shared "it's dangerous to believe that Russia can be a reliable counterterrorism partner."

A spokeswoman for Republican Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner says Trump should fully brief Congress on what was said and why.


Senators asking for transcripts of the secretive discussions with the Russians in the oval office:



And Roger Stone, die-hard friend of Trump, and who apparently convinced Trump to run for President, is now seemingly setting up a 'plead insanity' defence - namely alzheimers, via Alex Jones here:



Alex at the end talking about how awake he is and how "the cucks are the prodigal sons" and they must be helped to know the truth.

It's very interesting to see how the person who is shouting "fake news!" the loudest - Trump - is also the one who is changing his story the most. This looks like it will be the legacy of the post-truth movement.

And Marco Rubio is suddenly frantically posting bible verse on his twitter - but not this sentence, however, as Roger Stone quotes at the end of the above video:

Image

So let's see whose side their god is on...

Gripping stuff!
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on May 17th, 2017, 12:18 pm 



Only if Political Theater is your favorite form of entertainment. Personally, I prefer Science Fiction. With Science Fiction at least the authors admit it is fiction.

How did Russia become our biggest enemy? The USSR collapsed years ago, and along with its demise the ideological conflict between democracy and communism died as well. Modern day Russia's expansionist goals are more likely focused on former members of the USSR in eastern Europe than the conquest of the US. And that shouldn't surprise anyone. The US fought a very un-Civil War to bring some rogue states back into the Union.

China is competing with us economically. They are not seeking to march troops down Main Street. They want to sell their wares on Main Street, much the same way that Japan did 50 years ago, before their economy imploded. And Japan was our ally at the time.

Neither Russia nor China present an ideological conflict that would be likely to result in a shooting war, but the neocons present everyone as a potential threat in order to continue spending money on military-industrial boondoggles.

Meanwhile, North Korea actually is threatening war. Russia isn't. China isn't.

Political Theater is entertaining, but it is fiction that shouldn't be taken seriously.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on May 18th, 2017, 2:51 am 

Paul Anthony » May 18th, 2017, 1:18 am wrote:How did Russia become our biggest enemy? The USSR collapsed years ago, and along with its demise the ideological conflict between democracy and communism died as well.

I don't think anyone is suggesting this kind of old-fashioned conflict exists. It is more about the Russian 'brand' of democracy and the values that lie underneath that - a kind of of authoritarian far-right attitude that has hints of white supremacy. It seems that such a brand requires proactive subversion of more liberal and functional democracies - especially the powerful ones such as in the USA:



And of course there are those right-wing racist Americans who see a potential benefit in siding with the Russian authoritarian brand - for example, being upset with Fox News' Bill O'Reilly for calling Putin "a killer":


Just listen to Richard Spencer's rhetoric here (near the end of this short video), shortly before leading the white nationalist protest regarding the removal of a Confederate statue:

The group carried KKK style torches and chanted nazi slogans.

For those who consider a skin colour 'a people' (even though Trump prefers to change his skin colour), then there are considerable potential bridges to be built between Russia and America - at the expense of all non-white and non-white-nationalist Americans, and with some basic Christian values and gun-and-Russian-lady-fetishizing thrown into the mix. It seems that this is the non-fictional war that is currently being 'fought' between the majority of American households and Russia.

And very recently, Russia has begun to reduce its religious freedoms (and of course not for Christians):


When Richard Spencer's nazi platform is known to be supported by Steve Bannon, who is now in the Whitehouse and whispering in Trump's ear, then the Truth is ugly:


Therefore the Truth needs to be hidden, subverted, attacked, and so on. No average American is going to uphold Nazi values. The Civil war was generally fought over slavery - entrenched racism, and that was resolved and it is time to move forward. It seems that one could say that this white KKK-tinted nationalist movement, that is no doubt preferred by Putin than any other political player in America, is a remaining kink in the US national character that has been in dire need of getting a further ironing-out. This assault on the Truth looks like it is going to do just that.

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If you are still not getting what I am saying above, then watch the following video from Richard Spencer, and if you are pressed for time, then watch from 19:00:


A new war involving the "white world" present in Russia and the West, against the liberal western non-white and liberal world. It is not a war between nations, but between racist wealthy politically-corrupt Christian-leaning conservatives (and their fans) and everyone else. But they are too afraid of calling a spade a spade, because that Truth might just dig their political graves for them.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on May 18th, 2017, 11:21 am 

Mossling » Wed May 17, 2017 11:51 pm wrote:
I don't think anyone is suggesting this kind of old-fashioned conflict exists. It is more about the Russian 'brand' of democracy and the values that lie underneath that - a kind of of authoritarian far-right attitude that has hints of white supremacy. It seems that such a brand requires proactive subversion of more liberal and functional democracies - especially the powerful ones such as in the USA


Are Blacks and Hispanics persecuted in Russia? I am not aware of white supremacy in Russia. Are people forbidden to worship unless they're Christian? Unlike in Saudi Arabia, women are allowed to drive cars in Russia. And they can vote. But Saudi Arabia is our ally. Tell me again, why is Russia our enemy?


Mossling wrote: A new war involving the "white world" present in Russia and the West, against the liberal western non-white and liberal world. It is not a war between nations, but between racist wealthy politically-corrupt Christian-leaning conservatives (and their fans) and everyone else. But they are too afraid of calling a spade a spade, because that Truth might just dig their political graves for them.


The cultural war you describe (and hope for?) isn't between whites and everyone else. It is a battle between Progressives and more traditional thinking people. Most Hispanics are Catholic and family-oriented. In order to recruit people who don't agree with Progressive support of LGBTQ, the battle has to be presented as a racial one. It isn't. Some blacks are conservative, some whites are liberal. Some blacks are wealthy, some whites are poor. If you can't see that we are not defined by the color of our skin, you are part of the problem.
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