'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrity

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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby charon on January 14th, 2021, 12:33 pm 

Here's another one, directly quoting the text of the Impeachment article.

    "Donald John Trump engaged in high Crimes and Misdemeanors by inciting violence against the Government of the United States," the resolution argues, citing his false claims of election fraud in the months leading up to the riot — which he repeated on Jan. 6 — and a phone call to Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger where Trump urged him to "find" votes to overturn the results there.
    House Votes To Impeach Trump, But Senate Trial Unlikely Before Biden's Inauguration
    House Impeachment Vote: Live Updates
    Watch Live: House Debates Impeaching Trump For A Second Time

    The impeachment article says that during an address to supporters on Wednesday, Trump "willfully made statements that, in context, encouraged — and foreseeably resulted in — lawless action at the Capitol, such as: 'if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a county anymore.' "

    https://www.npr.org/sections/trump-impeachment-effort-live-updates/2021/01/11/955631105/impeachment-resolution-cites-trumps-incitement-of-capitol-insurrection

This one does reference other speeches but focusses on the content of the last one on Jan 6.
Last edited by charon on January 14th, 2021, 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on January 14th, 2021, 12:34 pm 

I see your tiny nitpicky technical point.
In context:I see it next to the immense, explosive wrecking-ball that is Trump.
Which do you think should more influence my opinion?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby charon on January 14th, 2021, 12:37 pm 

I'm not concerned with your opinion, nor should you be. It's what the Senate make of it.

The point is not 'nitpicky'. He did not encourage violence, he said the opposite. It's a fact, Serpent, whether we like it or not.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on January 14th, 2021, 12:53 pm 

charon » January 14th, 2021, 11:37 am wrote:I'm not concerned with your opinion, nor should you be. It's what the Senate make of it.

But afaik, neither of us is currently serving on the US Senate. It seems to me they have their concerns and we have ours.

The point is not 'nitpicky'.

You're right. It's not even that.
He did not encourage violence, he said the opposite. It's a fact, Serpent, whether we like it or not.

Yup. That's Trump.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby charon on January 14th, 2021, 2:55 pm 

But afaik, neither of us is currently serving on the US Senate. It seems to me they have their concerns and we have ours.


You've lost it, old bean. When people start embellishing their posts it's not a good sign.

I'll tell you something. If these impeachments had been conducted in a real court of law where facts and evidence mean something, he would have been convicted the first time. He only got away with it because of the GOP majority voice.

On this occasion I'm fairly sure even Trump wouldn't have directly advocated doing what they did in the Capitol. And, in a real court scenario, those two words 'peacefully and patriotically' would almost certainly get him off the hook. However, on this occasion, they may well convict because they want him gone.

But, as I said before, to be twice impeached and twice acquitted would give him enough ammunition to scream persecution and witch-hunt for the rest of his life.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on January 14th, 2021, 3:27 pm 

Crucial phrase: in context

I recruited a gang to carry it out a raid, told them whom to lynch, gave them their instructions, set a time and place, said: "On your mark. Get set. Go! By the bye, don't do anything illegal." "Oh, you are doing something illegal? Oh well, I still love you. Be peaceful now!"
Ya, that'll fly in a law-court.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby charon on January 14th, 2021, 6:16 pm 

Unfortunately it's anything but a law court, as exemplified by the appalling, utterly farcical, charade of last time.

We'll see what happens. As I've said before, I don't care how he goes as long as he goes. And preferably disappears entirely.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby JohnD on January 14th, 2021, 7:48 pm 

In my humble opinion, Trump will be gone in the least as soon as the inauguration occurs. May I suggest the debate, if it is to go on, must move away from Trump as the center of the issue and investigate other aspects of what has occurred? Look at other areas of political and social intrigue. Maybe look at other political systems around the world and what has occurred in those places. History has a habit of repeating especially in politics. For a long time now I have been unable to move away from the fact that recent incidents coincide with what happened a hundred years ago. Would we be able to look back to see the future or at least a possible future?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby JohnD on January 14th, 2021, 10:15 pm 

It has nothing to do with Trump but it is politics, world politics. It's a little dated from 2011 but may still have some relevance. It's a collection of articles gathered by the CIA. Hope you enjoy reading.
https://documents.theblackvault.com/doc ... 0-2012.pdf
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby charon on January 15th, 2021, 12:45 am 

Sorry, that link is of no interest whatsoever because it doesn't contain the word 'Trump'.

That's a joke, John :-)
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby JohnD on January 15th, 2021, 1:49 am 

Just watching Contagion. I know I'm a little behind. What's interesting is that the science was there when this movie was made and all the warnings were there. All one needs to do is to supplant the contagion with Covid 19 the rest of the story is very much the same. The reason I'm posting this here is the misinformation put up by the Trump administration (just for you Charon) and the handling and public perception of the contagion.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby charon on January 15th, 2021, 6:41 am 

Absolutely. I haven't seen the film but there do seem to be direct correlations to Covid and how it played out according to the Wiki write-up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contagion_(2011_film)

Incidentally, regarding Trump, unfortunately there's no indication that he will just fade away although I'm fairly certain a lot will depend on the outcome of the Senate hearing and what happens with legal issues afterwards.

As for him being the centre of the issue, he is definitely the centre of the issue. It's one of the things that's so irksome about this whole business. There's an important country to run and it's been taken over by some sort of personality cult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality

A quick look at the list of leaders and regimes to whom this applies will tell any right-minded person what's wrong with it. As if we need reminding.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby doogles on January 15th, 2021, 7:19 am 

A few posts back, Charon said "I'll tell you something. If these impeachments had been conducted in a real court of law where facts and evidence mean something, he would have been convicted the first time. He only got away with it because of the GOP majority voice. On this occasion I'm fairly sure even Trump wouldn't have directly advocated doing what they did in the Capitol. And, in a real court scenario, those two words 'peacefully and patriotically' would almost certainly get him off the hook. However, on this occasion, they may well convict because they want him gone."

Is this another good example of everyday collapse of information integrity? In cases of impeachment, party numbers rather than evidence, can determine outcomes. In one way, the situation is similar to mob rule at the highest level and citizens have to accept it.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby charon on January 15th, 2021, 8:46 am 

In one way, the situation is similar to mob rule


ABSOLUTELY. That's the whole point. So you have to question this whole scenario at the moment.

Having supported Stupid Man for four years, now they're all messing their pants and making their excuses before they're tainted by the stench of violence and corruption.

We talk about the collapse of integrity. I doubt if there was much integrity to collapse except that of self interest.

It's the usual thing, no one does anything till the situation hits crisis point. You can put kids in cages, build separating barriers, encourage shooting at reporters, lie, delude, threaten, anything you like... but have anything to do with trampling on tradition and suddenly you're yesterday's news.

That's why I'm not worshipping the ground Biden and Harris walk on just yet. They'll be good to start with, especially in the current atmosphere, but they're hard-line politicians... so we'll see how it goes.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on January 15th, 2021, 10:24 am 

doogles » January 15th, 2021, 6:19 am wrote: In cases of impeachment, party numbers rather than evidence, can determine outcomes.

As in all other legislative issues. You know that's what a congress or parliament is, right? A body that numerically represents the citizenry and votes according to their constituents' will - or according to the policy of the party their constituents support ed at the last election.
In one way, the situation is similar to mob rule at the highest level and citizens have to accept it.

Can you explain the difference between mob rule and majority rule?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby TheVat on January 15th, 2021, 12:10 pm 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

Polls show a majority of Americans favor Trump's being barred from public office.

And Trump job approval numbers have consistently stayed well below 50% (down in the 30s, on recent polls).

Looks like democracy is sort of functioning.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby charon on January 15th, 2021, 1:35 pm 

Looks like democracy is sort of functioning.


I think the States is strong enough to survive the likes of pathetic Donny and his misguided sycophants.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby doogles on January 15th, 2021, 5:15 pm 

Serpent -- "Can you explain the difference between mob rule and majority rule?"

Now that's an interesting question. Never slow to have a go, I'd say that in mob rule, evidence and debate is ignored, but in majority rule, we actually go through the charade of listening to policies, evidence and opinions before we give sway to the majority. It's a subtle difference.

And I emphasise that in majority rule, it IS a charade.

I'm a realist, and that's why I'm never disappointed.

When Charon says "We talk about the collapse of integrity. I doubt if there was much integrity to collapse except that of self interest.", he's espousing my own thoughts and bringing me back again to Richard Alexander's belief that in order to enhance our own self-interests without appearing to be selfish, we have created a social milieu in which we etc etc.

It's a shifty world we live in and we're lucky if we don't encounter at least one 'con-' approach every day at every level.

Information Integrity must be rare. It may be an interesting exercise in this thread to try to make a list of those occasions in our lives wherein we all have confidence in the information we're being fed.

When TheVat said "Looks like democracy is sort of functioning.", I'd agree. Although my attitude may sound pessimistic at t imes, I like to think that it's a 'rational pessimism' (Thanks Mossling).

My opinion of our Democracy and Government here in Australia is that somehow, over the nine decades of my life, they have managed to bungle and argue, manage and mismanage policies and procedures without ever having an overall plan. Yet somehow, since WWII, everybody I've known since since my childhood has become better off, in fact far better off, decade by decade, no matter which major party has been running our country.

Yes! I'd say that democracy is sort of functioning.

The strange thing is that the 'better off' my contemporaries get, the more they seem to whinge and whine about everything.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on January 15th, 2021, 6:17 pm 

Didn't look all that subtle last Wednesday.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby doogles on January 15th, 2021, 7:31 pm 

When a majority decision of a democracy declares war on another nation, that's not subtle either.

So mob rule and majority democracy decisions can both be violent.

I think we can leave my statement as is -- that the DIFFERENCES are subtle.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby JohnD on January 15th, 2021, 9:11 pm 

The mob doesn't have to be in the majority nor represent the majority. Mob rule is rule by intimidation and confrontation. The majority of people don't appreciate confrontation and would rather let things happen believing that sooner or later those doing the intimidating will get their just deserts and go away. They trust in the rule of government and the law.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on January 15th, 2021, 10:03 pm 

Apparently, the difference between a jacked-up mob of lunatic fringe yahoos overrunning a session of elected representatives with intent to lynch and a duly debated and passed declaration of war against a hostile nation is almost imperceptible. Better watch closely, lest a lunatic fringe yahoo declares war on some random non-hostile nation without due debate or vote.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby doogles on January 15th, 2021, 10:38 pm 

I prefer the word 'subtle'rather than 'imperceptible', as I'm rethinking the events that led up to the Gulf War.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on January 16th, 2021, 12:48 am 

The party that eventually created Trump went through the process to convince a majority of Congress and the Senate to vote for military action against Iraq. Yes, they went through the charade - without a single broken window, pissed-on wall or stolen lectern.
There is a quite blatant (i.e. opposite of subtle) difference between corruption of majority rule and overt mob rule. If you remove the mob, it's possible to clean up the corruption. If you don't, it's not.
I think that's a difference we might all appreciate.

Reason I keep harping on this:
If everything is just like everything else, then nothing has a distinctive meaning and communication becomes impossible. That may be exactly what the alt-right wants; thus, I resist it.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby doogles on January 16th, 2021, 6:51 am 

My original comment was a throw-away line really -- "In one way, the situation is similar to mob rule at the highest level and citizens have to accept it." I was referring specifically to the way that the senate conducts impeachment proceedings.

My response to your question following that comment - "What is the difference between mob rule and majority rule?", was also something of a throw away line. If I'd thought you were that serious about it Serpent, I would have given it more thought and research before responding. Please disregard my simple response to your question. It's not important one way or the other to me.

My recall of the Gulf War though did bring back another memory of a lack of information integrity before that declaration of war by politicians.

And I'm also finding myself questioning the actual title of this thread "Post-Truth Politics". This title implies to me that there was a time when Politics were open and transparent. I believe that's a myth. Every time we decide to hold Commissions of Inquiry into our Police Force or Politics in Australia, we discover widespread corruption.

As I've said already a number of times, I try to be realistic in my expectation of the behaviour of others at almost every level in life and I'm never surprised or disappointed when I see evidence of deceit and double standards, because I believe Richard Alexander was correct when he explained why it is a part of our natures.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on January 16th, 2021, 10:46 am 

Consider them somewhat belatedly thrown away.
Yes, deceit is part of human nature; so is violence. I know which I, personally, am better equipped to deal with.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby TheVat on January 16th, 2021, 1:55 pm 

I think this thread has done best when looking at how the Web tends to amplify deceits, rumours, and misinformation to a degree that's historically unprecedented. As Doogles and others note, we've always had transparency lacking from governments, always had propaganda and spin, and always had special interests that can buy a public platform and sometimes monopolize it. As has been touched on here before, the difficulty with just hoping free speech corrects false speech is that on the Web many people read lurid or shocking clickbait, which is often distorted or deceptive, but then make no effort to fact check that and discover error. They get that squirt of dopamine in the brain that follows from the clickbait story, then go do something else. Or use social media to pass along that exciting dopamine blast to friends. The dopamine blast is especially rich if it makes us feel like we're part of a group that's better and nicer than other groups. That's like the cocaine of web browsing.

I hope we can do better. We humans used to visit other neighboring tribal bands, bash in some heads, and drag off the nubile women. So we do in some respects manifest an ability, in advancing social structures, to transcend some aspects of our "nature. " (to be fair, some tribal peoples had clever ways to get around the head bashing, and developed nuanced intermarrying systems that helped each tribe's genomic health)
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on January 16th, 2021, 3:46 pm 

I meant it: Democracy must not be caught napping - we can't afford that!
We have to make a much better-coordinated, better-informed, more strenuous effort to clean up our communications media. Yes, the internet is difficult to police, but we have a dozen intelligence agencies capable of monitoring it; we simply need the political will to enact appropriate legislation to regulate its use. As for the broadcast media, it's time, and past time to deploy some anti-trust measures. Since politicians are so heavily dependent on big business for their campaign financing, a certain amount of election reform may have to take place before any government action can.
Nothing will happen without a strong push from the voters / consumers.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby doogles on January 16th, 2021, 5:03 pm 

That was a good summation TheVat.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby JohnD on January 16th, 2021, 5:32 pm 

What I would add to your summation The Vat is that the news media has been so distorted in recent times. In the last couple of decades, many have either come close to or become bankrupt. This has meant that some outlets have had to revert to opinion pieces rather than having reporters out in the field. News Limited for one has seized the opportunity to dictate how news is presented. In Australia, we see this blatantly when news breaks that is favorable to the Labor party (whether or not they are in government) News Limited doesn't cover it. This slanting of the news means people need to find other outlets to supply them with their daily fix. Enter social media which has become so tainted it is difficult to know what is real news.
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