'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrity

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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby d30 on December 17th, 2016, 8:18 pm 

Paul Anthony » December 16th, 2016, 8:31 pm wrote:d30,

You raise some interesting points, even if you present them with a very left-leaning bias.


Paul, that's what I look like from your still, I think, mostly (not fully) right-leaning perspective, as follows:

To a conservative, a centrist looks liberal. To a liberal, a centrist looks conservative.

Or, in terms of the color spectrum: to red, orange looks yellow; to yellow, orange looks red.

This is why I've urged in some posts, against present "post-truth" trend, that we all need to align with science, as follows:

Think forward and backward, not Democrat and Republican.
Think science and myth, not liberal and conservative.
Truth and lie, not left and right.

It may help to know how unfavorably I view, to name one, Democrat Bill Clinton (pres. 1993-2001). He spoke enlightened side but wound up behaving dark side. Four prime reasons that stick in mind: (1) NAFTA, (2) welfare "reform" (pulled the financial assistance rug out from under a mass of helpless young single mothers), (3) ca. 1996 Telecom bill, enabling diversity hostile media conglomeration, leading among other things to 91% right-wing-dominated talk radio, (4) Signed the bill ca. 2000 abolishing the ca. 1937 Glass-Steagal Act keeping commercial and investment banks separate, leading, predictably, seven years later to a near second Great Depression Glass-Steagal had prevented for ca. 70 years, securing an un-precdentedly, generally stable economy.

What all need to see is that the central issue of human evolution from day one has been imperialism vs. humanism. To clarify this, the definition of imperialism is INCONSIDERATE pursuit of self-interest, whereas humanism is the opposite: CONSIDERATE pursuit of self-interest. I.o.w., injustice vs. justice; unfairness vs. fairness. Justice and fairness sit on a foundation of truth. Unfairness and injustice stand on falsehood.

So, Paul, if considerateness were "left," I'd be "left," which I call centrist. If justice and fairness were "left," then I'd be "left," which I also say is actually dead center. I don't believe such is "left" What I believe is that both right and left have many good values and what we need to do is merge them into a new, powerful center that will carry humanity to its vast potential; a center primally based on one principle: "considerate pursuit of self-interest."

You see in that very phrase the merger at last of "considerate" many see as "left" and "self-interest" many see as "right." For illustration, "post-truth," fake news is clearly "inconsiderate pursuit of self-interest"; inconsiderate of others' perspectives, objectivity, fact, truth, fairness, and justice - SCIENCE.

Truth is neither right nor left. It is just TRUTH. "Post truth" means post-humanist; means neo-imperialist. Imperialist invariably means mass misery, as it inarguably did throughout the stagnant, snail-pace progress, if any, ancient and medieval Dark Ages.

Neo-imperialists (a shockingly again growing majority), in their every act now, e.g. global-warming denial, are attacking science as "left," "liberal." Science, like truth is neither left nor right. It is just SCIENCE.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on December 27th, 2016, 5:27 pm 

The stage has been set for the creation of a "Ministry of Truth" in the US. Will it be truthful?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-24/obama-signs-countering-disinformation-and-propaganda-act-law
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on December 27th, 2016, 9:23 pm 

Paul Anthony » Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:27 pm wrote:The stage has been set for the creation of a "Ministry of Truth" in the US. Will it be truthful?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-24/obama-signs-countering-disinformation-and-propaganda-act-law


I don't think there is any need to worry. Once Trump is at the helm he won't tolerate anything eve close to truth from any government ministry or agency. That is one thing he has demonstrated beyond anything else.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on December 27th, 2016, 9:43 pm 

Forest_Dump » Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:23 pm wrote:
Paul Anthony » Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:27 pm wrote:The stage has been set for the creation of a "Ministry of Truth" in the US. Will it be truthful?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-24/obama-signs-countering-disinformation-and-propaganda-act-law


I don't think there is any need to worry. Once Trump is at the helm he won't tolerate anything eve close to truth from any government ministry or agency. That is one thing he has demonstrated beyond anything else.


Sarcasm aside (and I do hope that was sarcasm) I would prefer that any organization designated as the arbiter of truth not be under the control of a government agency.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on December 27th, 2016, 10:07 pm 

Looks more like a countermeasure against fake news and foreign manipulation. Not a bad idea.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on December 27th, 2016, 10:13 pm 

Braininvat » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:07 pm wrote:Looks more like a countermeasure against fake news and foreign manipulation. Not a bad idea.


I wish I could be more optimistic, but it sounds more like an effort to combat propaganda with different propaganda favorable to the government. That doesn't necessarily get us closer to the truth.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on December 27th, 2016, 10:33 pm 

There is the interesting question of who can we trust to tell us the truth or any truth. Seems to me that too many people, from professional news people to any and every other business stands to make too much money from not telling us the truth. Much as I have a hard time trusting any politician I think I probably trust at least some sectors of the government more than anyone else.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Forest_Dump on December 27th, 2016, 10:40 pm 

Oh, and by the way:

Paul Anthony wrote:Sarcasm aside (and I do hope that was sarcasm) I would prefer that any organization designated as the arbiter of truth not be under the control of a government agency.


While clearly it was sarcasm, whatever I might think of Trump and his policies (and remember I do actually like at least one of his biggest primises - to end free trade), I don't think there is any question that he hasn't been the most untruthful candidate I can ever recall running for any office in any country. Seriously has there ever been a candidate that was been caught shamelessly telling more outright whoppers?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby wolfhnd on December 27th, 2016, 11:05 pm 

The guy is most likely dyslexic with an IQ over 150. My guess is that he has a communication problem of sorts. Combined all that with an oversized ego and you get what you get. The real difference is that most politicians are just better liars.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on January 7th, 2017, 2:41 am 

US intelligence report: Vladimir Putin 'ordered' operation to get Trump elected
The Guardian, Friday 6 January 2017
The report keeps classified any crucial technical data demonstrating Russian culpability, which means its release is unlikely to persuade skeptics that the intelligence agencies have definitively proven their case. Nor does the intelligence assessment claim that Russian interference was decisive in the election.

Though the report lacks detail, never before has the US intelligence apparatus publicly assessed a foreign power to have interfered in an election for the benefit of an incoming president.

The three US intelligence agencies assessed with “high confidence” that Russian military intelligence was behind anonymous hacking entities Guccifer 2.0 and DCLeaks.com, and relayed to WikiLeaks data stolen from prominent Democrats. WikiLeaks’ Julian Assange has denied receiving any material from the Russians.
[...]
It was the latest turbulence in what is shaping up to be an acrimonious relationship with US intelligence agencies. Trump has repeatedly dismissed the Russian hacking assessment, even putting out a dismissive December statement saying its authors were “the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction”.

Just wow - such interesting developments in the post-truth saga. It seems that Trump doesn't need intelligence - well, these agencies, at least. Or is he going to post-truthify US intelligence? It looks like that's what is happening. How is this going to unfold from here? What a show-down! National Defense Truths vs Post-Truth Politics .... the crumbling of a whole nation's intelligence? What kind of phoenix arises from such ashes?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on January 7th, 2017, 11:04 am 

Well, DT just appointed a NASA runner who thinks it can pay its way by mining asteroids for platinum and rare earth lements. This kind of thing reminds me of the "mining manganese nodules from the ocean floor" fantasy back in the 70s. It's all about getting us to live on fantasies. Giant walls that (somehow) magically repel ropes and ladders (arguably among the first inventions of homo sapiens, so I suspect they have them in Mexico.). I've read sources on how the trail of crumbs led to Russian hacking and it's quite convincing, indeed the evidence is overwhelming. But then, when is Trump ever stopped in his sclerotic thought processes by overwhelming evidence? Global warming? A massive hoax, perpetrated by 99.8 % of the world's climatologists! Getting platinum from asteroids? Easy-peasy! Stopping economic refugees from getting in and picking grapes and shingling houses for low wages? Nothing to it. Just spend 30 billion and they'll all give up on sea passages, gaps, rivers, and the use of ropes.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 7th, 2017, 1:55 pm 

Mossling » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:41 pm wrote:US intelligence report: Vladimir Putin 'ordered' operation to get Trump elected
The Guardian, Friday 6 January 2017
The report keeps classified any crucial technical data demonstrating Russian culpability, which means its release is unlikely to persuade skeptics that the intelligence agencies have definitively proven their case. Nor does the intelligence assessment claim that Russian interference was decisive in the election.

Though the report lacks detail, never before has the US intelligence apparatus publicly assessed a foreign power to have interfered in an election for the benefit of an incoming president.

The three US intelligence agencies assessed with “high confidence” that Russian military intelligence was behind anonymous hacking entities Guccifer 2.0 and DCLeaks.com, and relayed to WikiLeaks data stolen from prominent Democrats. WikiLeaks’ Julian Assange has denied receiving any material from the Russians.
[...]
It was the latest turbulence in what is shaping up to be an acrimonious relationship with US intelligence agencies. Trump has repeatedly dismissed the Russian hacking assessment, even putting out a dismissive December statement saying its authors were “the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction”.

Just wow - such interesting developments in the post-truth saga. It seems that Trump doesn't need intelligence - well, these agencies, at least. Or is he going to post-truthify US intelligence? It looks like that's what is happening. How is this going to unfold from here? What a show-down! National Defense Truths vs Post-Truth Politics .... the crumbling of a whole nation's intelligence? What kind of phoenix arises from such ashes?


Take a breath...

The FBI requested to examine the DNC's computers. The DNC refused (Clinton was under investigation by the FBI, so the DNC's reticence is perhaps understandable) so the FBI had to rely on information provided by a third-party security firm hired by the DNC. How do you determine who hacked the computers if you are not allowed to examine those computers?

From the report..."All three agencies agree with this judgment. CIA and FBI have high confidence in this judgment; NSA has moderate confidence,” Based on what? Drawing on multiple intelligence sources, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the National Security Agency said in the report that Russia’s operation blended covert activity, including cyberattacks, with public efforts by Russian government agencies, state-funded media and paid social media users known as “trolls.”

Also from the report...“Moscow’s approach evolved over the course of the campaign based on Russia’s understanding of the electoral prospects of the two main candidates,” according to the report. “When it appeared to Moscow that Secretary Clinton was likely to win the election, the Russian influence campaign began to focus more on undermining her future presidency.”
Eventually, the agencies said, “Putin publicly indicated a preference for President-elect Trump’s stated policy to work with Russia, and pro-Kremlin figures spoke highly about what they saw as his Russia-friendly positions on Syria and Ukraine. Putin publicly contrasted the president-elect’s approach to Russia with Secretary Clinton’s ‘aggressive rhetoric.”’

The nerve of the man! He doesn't love Clinton and had the nerve to say so! That is clear evidence that Putin belongs in that basket of deplorables that wrongfully elected Trump. He is clearly guilty...of something. :)
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on January 7th, 2017, 2:32 pm 

The nerve of the man! He doesn't love Clinton and had the nerve to say so! That is clear evidence that Putin belongs in that basket of deplorables that wrongfully elected Trump. He is clearly guilty...of something. :)



Is that the issue? I didn't like Clinton, either, and said so publicly. But there's no evidence I tried to have hackers swing the election to, er, write-in Cory Booker.

Based on a clear chain of evidence, and what you know about Putin, why would you doubt his involvement? Putin is one of that tiny group of whom I can say, their backing of Trump was sensible and based on facts.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on January 7th, 2017, 2:41 pm 

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/06/us/100000004856667.mobile.html

This explains how "spear phishing" works, and how very strongly the arrow points to Russian intelligence hacking.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Lomax on January 7th, 2017, 2:43 pm 

Mossling » January 7th, 2017, 7:41 am wrote:How is this going to unfold from here? What a show-down! National Defense Truths vs Post-Truth Politics .... the crumbling of a whole nation's intelligence? What kind of phoenix arises from such ashes?

I wouldn't worry about that. Historically, presidents have always lost the battle with their own intelligence services.

Paul Anthony wrote:Also from the report...“Moscow’s approach evolved over the course of the campaign based on Russia’s understanding of the electoral prospects of the two main candidates,” according to the report. “When it appeared to Moscow that Secretary Clinton was likely to win the election, the Russian influence campaign began to focus more on undermining her future presidency.”
Eventually, the agencies said, “Putin publicly indicated a preference for President-elect Trump’s stated policy to work with Russia, and pro-Kremlin figures spoke highly about what they saw as his Russia-friendly positions on Syria and Ukraine. Putin publicly contrasted the president-elect’s approach to Russia with Secretary Clinton’s ‘aggressive rhetoric.”’

The nerve of the man! He doesn't love Clinton and had the nerve to say so!

Bertrand Russell always said you should attack an argument at its strongest. Putin's public stance is not being cited by the report as the sole example of him influencing the election. If you would read as far as the following page it has a section headed "Russian Campaign Was Multifaceted" in which it states:

The Kremlin’s campaign aimed at the US election featured disclosures of data obtained through Russian cyber operations; intrusions into US state and local electoral boards; and overt propaganda


Paul Anthony » January 7th, 2017, 6:55 pm wrote:How do you determine who hacked the computers if you are not allowed to examine those computers?

You may just be showing your age ;) Emails exist on third-party servers, not on the sender's or recipient's hard-drive. At any rate it's possible, in many cases, to intercept a TCP/IP communication without being at either end of that communication.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 7th, 2017, 3:06 pm 

Lomax » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:43 am wrote:
You may just be showing your age ;) Emails exist on third-party servers, not on the sender's or recipient's hard-drive. At any rate it's possible, in many cases, to intercept a TCP/IP communication without being at either end of that communication.


I am aware. According to several private enterprise security experts, it is very difficult to determine the source of a hack. IP addresses that may have been used by hackers last month may be being used by someone's grandma today. Code used by hackers quickly becomes common knowledge, accessible by other hackers, making the evidence of its origin - the "signature" - useless in determining who used it this time.

I can't know anything for certain. I suspect the intelligence agencies can't either, but they can suspect based on their intimate knowledge of how such activities are conducted, due to their experience conducting similar covert operations.

I am not shocked that Russia engages in cyber warfare any more than I am shocked that we and our allies do, too. But is this time different? Is this a "threat to democracy"?

IMO, using this to undermine the legitimacy of a Trump Presidency is the greater threat to democracy.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on January 7th, 2017, 3:22 pm 

No one needs Russian hacking to undermine the legitimacy of the PEOTUS.

But interference with the election of a sovereign nation can potentially develop into a serious threat to democracy and sovereignty. I think that's fairly self-explanatory, Paul.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 7th, 2017, 3:48 pm 

Braininvat » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:22 pm wrote:No one needs Russian hacking to undermine the legitimacy of the PEOTUS.

But interference with the election of a sovereign nation can potentially develop into a serious threat to democracy and sovereignty. I think that's fairly self-explanatory, Paul.


Can develop? Hasn't it been SOP for the CIA to interfere with elections of sovereign nations around the world?
Why is it only wrong when it's done to the US?

And let's be clear: No voting machines were tampered with. There is no evidence - or even a suggestion of evidence - that the election itself was tampered with. There was a propaganda campaign. No more blatant than the way a Russian-favored leader was ousted in Ukraine and replaced by a US-favored leader. Russia retaliated and we are shocked and appalled!

Clinton was friendly with and took money from Saudi Arabia, but no one claimed the Saudis were interfering with the US election.

Trump won. I didn't vote for him, but he won anyway. Get over it. I have.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Lomax on January 7th, 2017, 3:52 pm 

Paul Anthony » January 7th, 2017, 8:48 pm wrote:Can develop? Hasn't it been SOP for the CIA to interfere with elections of sovereign nations around the world?

Am I to assume you would have everybody shut up about Guatemala and Chile, too?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 7th, 2017, 4:47 pm 

Lomax » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:52 pm wrote:
Paul Anthony » January 7th, 2017, 8:48 pm wrote:Can develop? Hasn't it been SOP for the CIA to interfere with elections of sovereign nations around the world?

Am I to assume you would have everybody shut up about Guatemala and Chile, too?


On the contrary, I would not ask anyone to "shut up" about factual information that leads to a better understanding about the actions - covert and overt - of governments on the world stage. Perhaps if the behavior of nations against other nations were better known we would not be surprised (or pretend to be surprised) when other nations act in much the same way as our own government does.

Every nation has spies. Calling them "Intelligence agencies" doesn't change the facts. Covert actions take place all around the world, and always have. The technology employed has changed but the mission hasn't.

The world has better reason to be upset with overt actions, like invading a sovereign nation like Iraq for the sole purpose of overthrowing that nation's government than it has to be shocked when a nation employees its "intelligence agencies" to accomplish essentially the same thing - without bloodshed.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Lomax on January 7th, 2017, 4:55 pm 

Paul Anthony » January 7th, 2017, 9:47 pm wrote:The world has better reason to be upset with overt actions, like invading a sovereign nation like Iraq for the sole purpose of overthrowing that nation's government than it has to be shocked when a nation employees its "intelligence agencies" to accomplish essentially the same thing - without bloodshed.

For my part I think there is a difference between corrupting another country's democratic process, and beginning it. (Iraq was never without bloodshed, by the way.)

I couldn't find many mentions of Salvador Allende on this forum but there is a thread in which you agree to denounce his CIA-supported assassination as "despicable". So it's a little odd to me that a "libertarian" would find the interfering by one superpower into another's affairs - which may have led to the election of a man who wants to roll back free trade, and who appointed an administration full of ultranationalists and white supremacists - as not even a threat to democracy. I cannot make myself imagine you taking the form of an apologist for Clinton, had the house of Saud lifted her into power.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 7th, 2017, 5:18 pm 

Lomax » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:55 pm wrote:

I couldn't find many mentions of Salvador Allende on this forum but there is a thread in which you agree to denounce his CIA-supported assassination as "despicable". So it's a little odd to me that a "libertarian" would find the interfering by one superpower into another's affairs - which may have led to the election of a man who wants to roll back free trade, and who appointed an administration full of ultranationalists and white supremacists - as not even a threat to democracy. I cannot make myself imagine you taking the form of an apologist for Clinton, had the house of Saud lifted her into power.


I guess I haven't been clear. We should be upset by the actions of ALL governments, including our own and that of our allies. What we should not do is pretend that Russia is the only bad actor in the world. Putin alleged Clinton attempted to interfere with his election. Why aren't we upset that there might be some truth to that?

Anyone who still believes there are nations that are always good and nations that are always bad should be forced to watch the entire Sci-Fi series, Babylon 5. ")
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Lomax on January 7th, 2017, 5:23 pm 

Paul Anthony » January 7th, 2017, 10:18 pm wrote:I guess I haven't been clear. We should be upset by the actions of ALL governments, including our own and that of our allies. What we should not do is pretend that Russia is the only bad actor in the world.

That was not the claim made by anybody. The claim was that Russian activity in this instance is a threat to American democracy. What I do see is that you have only been able to condemn international corruption of democracy when it didn't serve the end of empowering Donald Trump. Just as, in the linked thread, you resist Xcthulhu's evidence of climate change because you are not a qualified climatologist; and yet here you are qualified to debunk NSA claims about hacking and spying.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 7th, 2017, 5:41 pm 

Lomax » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:23 pm wrote:
Paul Anthony » January 7th, 2017, 10:18 pm wrote:I guess I haven't been clear. We should be upset by the actions of ALL governments, including our own and that of our allies. What we should not do is pretend that Russia is the only bad actor in the world.

That was not the claim made by anybody. The claim was that Russian activity in this instance is a threat to American democracy. What I do see is that you have only been able to condemn international corruption of democracy when it didn't serve the end of empowering Donald Trump. Just as, in the linked thread, you resist Xcthulhu's evidence of climate change because you are not a qualified climatologist; and yet here you are qualified to debunk NSA claims about hacking and spying.


No, no, no. I do not deny Russia's attempts to hack the DNC (and probably many other government and quasi-government sources). I'm just saying it's par for the course. The US and it's allies engage in the same behavior.

Either be upset with the behavior of every nation, or not at all.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Braininvat on January 7th, 2017, 6:10 pm 

Paul, who are these strawmen in the forums here who were not also upset with the past pecadillos of the CIA et al? As famous jurist Louis Brandeis said, "The best disinfectant is sunlight." No one here, to my knowledge, is pretending that only Russia is the bad actor in the world.

You add, somewhere in your argument that "Trump won. Get over it." But I don't think that's the issue here. And why would the political opposition of Trump, or any public official, simply passively roll over and stay silent? You and I both know that would be the real death of democracy. So the "get over it" rhetoric is not constructive at all. I'm going to watch everything Trump and his cronies do like a pitbull watching a piece of bloody meat - that's part of my job as a U.S. citizen who represents a quite different political philosophy. If I think he's playing foul, trashing the Constitution, promoting bigotry or misogyny, despoiling our natural resources, screwing over the poor, blocking a woman's right to choose her medical options, etc. I will definitely not "get over it." I hope that's a reality you can, er, get over. :-)

The issue here is not what effect Russian influence may have had on the final voting tally, because that is simply impossible to determine. I think we all agree on that, yes? The issue is rather, the corrosive effect on the electoral process when this sort of interference is shown to be possible. We all want the final vote to have weight, to indicate a political reality of what The People want from their leaders. Anything that undermines confidence in that process can erode a nation's belief in its democratic process. And a belief is sort of what democracy is founded on. I'm not saying that only Russian interference is dangerous in this respect. So are SuperPACs, and huge infusions of out-of-state money into state political races, and guys like David Koch or George Soros or Sheldon Adelson essentially buying candidates (notice I didn't pick fat cats from only one party). The fight for integrity in our electoral process is one fought on many fronts.

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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Athena on January 7th, 2017, 6:14 pm 

Serpent » November 14th, 2016, 10:04 pm wrote:Thank infomercials and reality shows for blurring the boundaries.
Commercial news outlets didn't help much, either.
And then, wonder about the audience that doesn't ask and really doesn't care whether what it hears is fact or fiction, as long as it fits their preconceptions.

See, I think a lot of people, maybe most people, have simply given up on having any control over reality, so when confronted with two or more versions of reality, they choose which to believe.


You and I have gone rounds about this before. When we enacted the National Defense Education Act, we replaced education for independent thinking with group think. Now the audience doesn't know the difference between a fact and an emotional appeal. Everyone who can spell words, thinks he is a philosopher without having read a single philosophy book. We have prepared our young for the Military Industrial Complex, not to be citizens in a democracy, and what goes with this is the Prussian model of bureaucracy applied to citizens that shifts power from the individual to the state.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Paul Anthony on January 7th, 2017, 6:46 pm 

Braininvat » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:10 pm wrote:

The issue here is not what effect Russian influence may have had on the final voting tally, because that is simply impossible to determine. I think we all agree on that, yes? The issue is rather, the corrosive effect on the electoral process when this sort of interference is shown to be possible. We all want the final vote to have weight, to indicate a political reality of what The People want from their leaders. Anything that undermines confidence in that process can erode a nation's belief in its democratic process. And a belief is sort of what democracy is founded on. I'm not saying that only Russian interference is dangerous in this respect. So are SuperPACs, and huge infusions of out-of-state money into state political races, and guys like David Koch or George Soros or Sheldon Adelson essentially buying candidates (notice I didn't pick fat cats from only one party). The fight for integrity in our electoral process is one fought on many fronts.



Yes! As long as the Russians (or the Democrats, or David Koch) didn't tamper with the voting machines, the voters have spoken. Were they influenced by the release of DNC emails? Probably, but as long as the contents of those emails were not tampered with, they were influenced by facts. That's not nearly as bad as some of the outright lies both sides told that also influenced voters.

Those emails were embarrassing to the Dems. But if they were true, whatever influence they had was democracy in action. Making a bigger deal of possible Russian involvement in releasing those emails is deflection more than it is true concern with democracy.

If someone had leaked Donald's tax returns, as long as they were authentic and not doctored I would care little about who leaked them. If they were embarrassing to Trump I could imagine him trying to make a big deal out of the source of the leak.

When Snowden embarrassed our intelligence agencies, they deflected from the facts released by painting him a traitor. Whether or not you think he was doesn't make the information he revealed any less valid.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on January 7th, 2017, 8:48 pm 

Lomax » January 8th, 2017, 3:43 am wrote:
Mossling » January 7th, 2017, 7:41 am wrote:How is this going to unfold from here? What a show-down! National Defense Truths vs Post-Truth Politics .... the crumbling of a whole nation's intelligence? What kind of phoenix arises from such ashes?

I wouldn't worry about that. Historically, presidents have always lost the battle with their own intelligence services.

But historically there hasn't been such a post-truth movement and this is Trump that we're dealing with here ;P. He doesn't like to be seen to lose and bears grudges.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Athena on January 7th, 2017, 10:26 pm 

Forest_Dump » December 27th, 2016, 8:33 pm wrote:There is the interesting question of who can we trust to tell us the truth or any truth. Seems to me that too many people, from professional news people to any and every other business stands to make too much money from not telling us the truth. Much as I have a hard time trusting any politician I think I probably trust at least some sectors of the government more than anyone else.


I trust the public broadcasting station and the League of Women Voters of Oregon
lwvor.org/

I love doing my own research. What are the important things we should know and where might we look for information?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby d30 on January 7th, 2017, 11:08 pm 

Paul Anthony » January 7th, 2017, 11:48 am wrote:Trump won. I didn't vote for him, but he won anyway. Get over it. I have.


Gosh oh mighty, PA. You haven't begun to "get over it" - get over the coming consequences of this election.

I wish more people understood this guy has zero experience in government, and zero understanding and appreciation of the checks-and-balances necessity of a strong public sector to keep the private sector from running rampant as it did, e.g., when critical public-sector banking and financial regulations were removed, leading within seven years to the economic collapse of 2007-8 and near second Great Depression, due to the inevitability of outrageously irresponsible misconduct of the greedy element ever lurking in the private sector.

With a Senate and Congress also controlled by people with no understanding of the indispensability of government large enough to stand up to the wealthy and their corporations, we're facing the risk of the end of America as we've known it. Risk of growing hell for growing masses of people, including you. Risk of steep decline and fall of such a once so promising nation. You can't "get over it" until you live to see the results.
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