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Mossling » November 22nd, 2016, 11:57 am wrote:NoShips » November 21st, 2016, 10:49 pm wrote:What do you take "conceptual knowledge" to be?
Knowledge that can be communicated through language.
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NoShips wrote:I have no frickin idea what this....
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Mossling -- Mainstream politics are now said to be "post-truth", and I say it is post-conceptual-truth, since there is apparently an absolute, non-conceptual world out there - of curved space-time and whatnot, that no matter the conceptual relative truth politicians like to 'spin' about it, space-time is always going to be curved by gravity. One politician might say that relative to his religion or personal beliefs, for example, space-time is not curved, but good luck with his space program if he follows through with those beliefs and expects others to conform. For more 'real' examples, we could look at the history around the proposition of heliocentrism as we have already. Politicians can say what they like - and beyond the responsibility of having to speak accurate conceptual truths, but ultimately nature is going to do its thing.
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Paul Anthony » November 22nd, 2016, 7:22 pm wrote:Many sources or fewer sources. What matters is that the sources are complete and accurate.
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Lomax » Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:36 am wrote:Paul Anthony » November 22nd, 2016, 7:22 pm wrote:Many sources or fewer sources. What matters is that the sources are complete and accurate.
I think completeness is too much to ask. If the New York Times really were "all the news that's fit to print", we wouldn't have enough ink to print it.
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Paul Anthony » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:45 pm wrote:Lomax » Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:36 am wrote:Paul Anthony » November 22nd, 2016, 7:22 pm wrote:Many sources or fewer sources. What matters is that the sources are complete and accurate.
I think completeness is too much to ask. If the New York Times really were "all the news that's fit to print", we wouldn't have enough ink to print it.
Okay, I'd settle for accurate. Is that too much to ask? ;)
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wolfhnd » Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:32 pm wrote:
You ignored my point which was that accuracy is largely irrelevant because selective reporting is a more powerful propaganda.
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Paul Anthony » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:51 pm wrote:wolfhnd » Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:32 pm wrote:
You ignored my point which was that accuracy is largely irrelevant because selective reporting is a more powerful propaganda.
I'm not a big fan of propaganda. When did accuracy become irrelevant? I must have missed the memo. (I managed a quality control department for 14 years. I like to think my work had some relevance).
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wolfhnd » November 23rd, 2016, 12:34 am wrote:When WikiLeaks proved that Clinton committed crimes the media ignored it or focused on irrelevant side issues.
Wolfhnd wrote:The fact that Trump is something of a pig is only consistent with how women behave around rich men and is hardly news worthy for those over the age of 10.
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Lomax » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:12 am wrote:wolfhnd » November 23rd, 2016, 12:34 am wrote:When WikiLeaks proved that Clinton committed crimes the media ignored it or focused on irrelevant side issues.
I'm abashed to say I missed that, unless you're repeating this misleading story.
I must say that I find this...Wolfhnd wrote:The fact that Trump is something of a pig is only consistent with how women behave around rich men and is hardly news worthy for those over the age of 10.
...a little disturbing. Trump is innocent until guilty but that doesn't mean we should assume his (many) accusers to be liars just because he is rich. I have never heard so many open, straightforward apologetics for rape and sexual harrassment as I have this year. The things that politics can do to people.
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wolfhnd » November 22nd, 2016, 10:09 pm wrote:
Bill Clinton
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d30 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:48 pm wrote:Anyone have any ideas on how to rescue truth in a "post-truth" era? For starters, how about:
one or two greatly expanded, amply publicly funded, non-profit (no always truth-corrupting advertising) snopes.com-like sites where claims, statements, especially bullet points like "reducing corporate taxes creates jobs," can be fact checked.
Once recognized by all as reliable sources of truth, impetuous causes like Brexit and demagogues who spew bullet-point falsehoods would be exposed, no longer listened to, and fail, unlike what happened in this year's U.S. election, etc. Such sizable enterprises would create a whole lot of investigative and other research jobs too.
It would certainly be worth the national investment, restoring and maintaining sanity, stability, and all-benefiting progress too because much counter-productive conflict of today, based on opposing beliefs would be eliminated, replaced with greater and greater citizen harmony under the unifying quality of truth (science), clearing the road to accelerating advancement for all, in all ways.
(Having two such sites, independently operated, would guard against corruption of one because the second one would expose something went haywire at the other one. Secondly, the two, if uncorrupted, would verify each other, doubling the credence of them, and confidence in them.)
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Serpent » November 23rd, 2016, 1:23 am wrote:No. It's simply that they can lie and get away with it, because no vertebrata in the journalistic or communication broadcasting realm will stand up and holler "Liar!" , at the same time an opposing politician can and does exactly that during a legitimate president's state of the union address, and is not thrown out on his ear.
d30 wrote:Anyone have any ideas on how to rescue truth in a "post-truth" era?
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wolfhnd » November 22nd, 2016, 11:19 pm wrote:If you don't like my examples come up with your own. Cognitive dissonance is a related issue but I covered it by pointing out people get the bias they pay for according to their subscriptions.
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Mossling » November 23rd, 2016, 12:56 am wrote:Everyone is a liar - as soon as you communicate a concept as 'the absolute truth' as it appears to you, you have spoken a lie.
With regards to the current political age, it just seems that sophistry has become more sophisticated.
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wolfhnd » November 23rd, 2016, 12:57 pm wrote:Serpent you are right subtle is not going to be helpful in the public arena but some reform is needed in higher education. Post Modernism needs to be challenged by other philosophical schools. When you have people saying objective reality is an illusion and totally rejecting empiricism there is a problem.
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Serpent » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:22 pm wrote:wolfhnd » November 23rd, 2016, 12:57 pm wrote:Serpent you are right subtle is not going to be helpful in the public arena but some reform is needed in higher education. Post Modernism needs to be challenged by other philosophical schools. When you have people saying objective reality is an illusion and totally rejecting empiricism there is a problem.
That's all true. But I sincerely doubt a change in university philosophy courses will be very helpful to the deplorable behaviour of political basket-cases. They're not consistently voting against their own interest because of anything promulgated by a school of philosophy or a cosmology; they're doing it because they've been deliberately misled and riled up by unscrupulous, manipulative preachers and shills.
How about a decent program of health and nutrition for all the children? How about good primary and secondary public schools all over the country - ones that insist on 100% literacy and numeracy by graduation? How about civics courses at each level? How about honest science textbooks for all students?
How about competent, responsible news reporting?
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wolfhnd » November 23rd, 2016, 1:45 pm wrote:
I think you are going after the low hanging fruit,
throwing money at problems while necessary has not solved our problems.
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