'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrity

[JohnD]

I wonder how long before there can be any form of normality in the US? Even with Congress meeting as I write this and even considering Democrats hold the majority so will endorse Joe Biden's election win these people don't look to be accepting of such a result. So, what will happen in the next couple of weeks? If the people are so divided what about the military? Local law enforcement? Is this being conducted by a minority thinking group or are they representative of a much larger group?
Just watching Star Trek Deep Space Nine S3 EP11 Past Tense. With what is happening at present it seems so familiar when looking at possibilities. Of course, not the Deep Space Nine part but the event leading up to the scenes in the episode. If you transpose that event with the current Covid 19 and add the political turmoil...

[Mossling]

As we've been discussing here all along, the only truths cannot really be 'spun' by these post-truth conspiracy theorists, etc., is when someone's family member has died/been killed.

The 'irony' of sorts is that the conspiracy theorists ARE THE CONSPIRACY here - it's a pretty simple formula isn't it; namely, play foul and pre-emptively accuse others of the foul play that they are going to accuse you of - it's like a robber going into a bank and calling the police in order to accuse the bank of stealing and hiding his money in the vault.

Of course, the 'bank' (here the electoral system) has security camera footage and so on, and therefore the tactic doesn't ultimately work.

So hopefully these events, although tragic and seemingly 'unnecessary,' will become great reminders of the danger of indulging conspiracy theory and whipping up extreme right wing sentiment in combination with it. It obviously did 'need to happen' so that we can have this precedent to refer to in future.

That's all good for the Truth, as far as I'm concerned. I much prefer these anarchists' true intentions out in the clear wide open, rather than seething and bubbling under the surface whilst Trump et al continues to call them "good people", "patriots," etc., slowly normalizing groups like the Proud Boys into a vision of 'mainstream America.'

It was funny how Ivanka shot herself in the foot there. "Patriots", haha. She sided with a bunch of biker thugs who were attempting a coup and it will never be forgotten.

[Mossling]

Here is some of the Truth from the day the post-truthers decided to VIGOROUSLY ACT on their beliefs:

[Mossling]

And the push-back:

It's all a bit of fun until you get your nose broken by a special forces guy and end up sitting feeling sorry for yourself 'outside the headmasters office'...

[JohnD]

Mossling what you say is true and I agree and I hope like what you suggest that this thing fizzles into nothing however I must say I suffer from anxiety and with such matters, I can't help but think the worst. It isn't the immediate settling of this matter that concerns but the slightly longer view and the others that may be emboldened by it including other world leaders in more fragile democracies.
If I may I'd like to introduce a different democracy to the mix Australia. There has been much ado here ever since the present government was elected. The present situation with China is causing much angst among knowledgeable people. The following article was published today and shows the arrogance of ministers within this government and the lack of understanding of the use of the English language in foreign relations.
https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy ... f85f3fdf1c
Considering the closeness of our Prime Minister with Donald Trump it shows the harm that has been caused by the Trump administration not only in the US but in other parts of the world.

[Mossling]

The pendulum swings back and forth doesn't it.

Who knows how far it has left to swing on this trajectory eh.

[Serpent]

Impia tortorum longos hic turba furores
Sanguinis innocui, non satiata, aluit.
Sospite nunc patria, fracto nunc funeris antro,
Mors ubi dira fuit vita salusque patent.

https://poestories.com/read/pit

And still, nobody on network news questions the assumption that this mob is "angry" because they're convinced that the election and, indeed, their country has been "stolen" from them. That's such transparent BS! These very same thugs have been congregating in flag-heavy pickup trucks outside polling stations, terrorizing old Black ladies, election after election. They know exactly who's been wrecking the democratic process: them!
And they know exactly why: they're a rabble with delusions of grandeur: the more people they disenfranchise, the more power they think they can wield. And, of course they're wrong: the power they grab is given to whichever demagogue riled them up this time - one who says he will lead them to glorious victory - but who, in fact, will be watching from a secret bunker, waiting to take credit if they prevail, to denounce them if they're defeated.
Many attempts will be made by the winning side to appease them. All such attempts will achieve is to legitimize their sense of grievance and reinforce their illusion of relevancy.






(\"Here the wicked mob, unappeased, long cherished a hatred of innocent blood. Now that the fatherland has been saved, and the cave of death demolished; where grim death has been, life and health appear.\")

[JohnD]

Serpent my question would be: are they a rabble, or are they a part of something greater? The dissent and dissatisfaction with the current political system may yet prove to be more far-reaching. These 'mobs' have been around in different guises since the end of the Civil War and the question of their remaining existence needs to be explored and not downplayed. Trump played to these mobs because like many others he knew of them. I wouldn't say that anything that has been done so far has quelled them, rather it looks more like a strategic retreat. I find it hard to believe that people who show so much disdain would go home, sit quietly at the dinner table, smile, and ask 'darling, what's for dinner?'

[Forest_Dump]

I definitely agree on the two main points. 1) this was a small extreme fringe group that should be treated as such; 2) however Trump definitely did tap into a much much bigger think of the population that doesn't see the world the same as many of the rest of us and discounting or dismissing that highly significant chunk of the population amounts to something between irresponsibility and insanity. You could lock up every single Trump supporter that was within 10 miles of the capital and you would still have over 74 million of his supporters out there and they have to be taken into account the same as everyone else.

[Serpent]

Serpent my question would be: are they a rabble, or are they a part of something greater?

They are certainly part of something - the fabric of American history. There is a complex explanation to how and why these splinter groups from the 'independent frontiersman' tradition went off of in the fascist direction (don't discount the role-playing, dressing-up theatrical aspect of this), but that's by the way. Their central issue is refusal to share power with less privileged groups -- and it's illusory, because they never were anything more than disposable tools of the real privileged class.

The dissent and dissatisfaction with the current political system may yet prove to be more far-reaching.

Yes, of course, but that legitimate dissatisfaction does not reside in, and is not expressed by, these gangs. There are far more numerous groups of citizens who can - and have - put forth a much more convincing case for having been robbed of their rights and votes and consideration and share of the nation's benefits.
There is plenty wrong with the system - but that's not what the Trumpites are protesting about. Most of them probably couldn't articulate what, exactly, they think has been taken from them. They're enraged, because they've been worked up to the rage they so enjoy, and they're unwilling to let the conductor of their collective tantrum go. Who else will give them the world stage to perform on? Who else will make them feel so 'special' and 'loved'?

These 'mobs' have been around in different guises since the end of the Civil War

Since the dawn of civilization!

and the question of their remaining existence needs to be explored and not downplayed.

Explored, I think it has been. Solved is another problem. But nothing good will be accomplished either by giving them more publicity or by appeasing them. They're a by-product of the interacting forces in the society: their faces, chants, uniforms and hairstyles change; their weapons a periodically upgraded from rocks to pitchfork to assault rifle, but they are always potentially present, ready to spring up from the cracks in any nation's integrity, at any time.

Trump played to these mobs because like many others he knew of them.

The vein was rich and accessible. The tool was in his hand. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/11/roger-stones-long-history-in-trump-world/581293/

I wouldn't say that anything that has been done so far has quelled them, rather it looks more like a strategic retreat. I find it hard to believe that people who show so much disdain would go home, sit quietly at the dinner table, smile, and ask 'darling, what's for dinner?'

More likely, "Hoy, Babe, we goddany beer?" But, yes, of course they won't go peacefully. This was a dress rehearsal for the 20th. They need a few minutes' time out under a riot cop's knee... They need to be humiliated and left leaderless for a while. They'll split off into their local, specialized gangs, drift off into oblivion for a while, and bide their time. They should be kept under close scrutiny. Unfortunately, they have far too many sympathizers in the various police forces. Even more unfortunately, the problems of the disenfranchised and legitimately angry minorities, and the underpaid, underappreciated, underserviced, long-suffering majority will be demonstrated in more public displays, which will give this rabble more excuses to stage violent clashes. They've got the taste for it now, the habit of organizing, and the tacit approval of quite a large number of Murdoch-indoctrinated citizens and the toxic right-wing media to furnish their alternate reality.

[Mossling]

They need a few minutes' time out under a riot cop's knee...

They killed a cop during the storming of the capitol building. The officer was mauled by the mob and later succumbed to his wounds.

That's another truth that isn't going to be spinnable, really.

The more blood Trump CLEARLY has on his hands after all this, the better for the future of America, it seems.

They should be kept under close scrutiny.

No doubt they will be, but yes, they'll still be a significant threat - in numbers alone.

Biden seems to be classifying them as terrorists for now, and there's a 50K reward for info on the pipe bombs origin.

Those guys aren't going to be able to fart from now on without it being recorded on an intel log somewhere.

[toucana]

An interesting video segment was posted by a journalist called Robert Moore who is the Washington correspondent for the British ITN network (Independent Television News).

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/01/08/robert-moore-itn-news-inside-us-capitol-riots-ebof-vpx.cnn

This reporter was at the Capitol on Wednesday when large numbers of protesters broke through a window and door into the Capitol, and he simply followed them inside along with his cameraman. They managed to film and even interview some of the intruders as they wandered around the rotunda like a surreal tourist party on a day trip.

Some of the responses offered by the protestors when asked what they thought they were doing there make quite bizarre reading.

“We are here to stop the steal … to stop our country being taken away from us” was one familiar refrain.

But the ITN correspondent also spoke to people who told him in all seriousness that they were there to “rescue children from pedophiles..”

Yes - These were QAnon cult devotees who were apparently under the impression that this was a bigged-up version of the bonkers gun raid on the Comet Ping Pong Pizzeria in Washington DC to rescue children locked up in its non-existent basement from the clutches of Hillary Clinton and other satan-worshipping politicians and cannibal members of the deep state.

It is rather difficult to imagine how any new administration will set about dealing with the political presence of such large numbers of self-indoctrinated zealots, most of whom have spent the last four years stuffing themselves full of 4chan and 8chan/kun garbage that has been endlessly recycled in right-wing echo-chambers like Fox News, on social media - and from the Twitter feed of the POTUS himself.

It looks like a task on a par with the problem faced by the allies in 1945 after the defeat of Hitler when they had to set up an entire de-nazification program in Germany to reverse the effects of years of state sponsored racist and authoritarian propaganda.

[Mossling]

But the ITN correspondent also spoke to people who told him in all seriousness that they were there to “rescue children from pedophiles..”

Yes - These were QAnon cult devotees who were apparently under the impression that this was a bigged-up version of the bonkers gun raid on the Comet Ping Pong Pizzeria in Washington DC to rescue children locked up in its non-existent basement from the clutches of Hillary Clinton and other satan-worshipping politicians and cannibal members of the deep state.

It is rather difficult to imagine how any new administration will set about dealing with the political presence of such large numbers of self-indoctrinated zealots, most of whom have spent the last four years stuffing themselves full of 4chan and 8chan/kun garbage that has been endlessly recycled in right-wing echo-chambers like Fox News, on social media - and from the Twitter feed of the POTUS himself.

It looks like a task on a par with the problem faced by the allies in 1945 after the defeat of Hitler when they had to set up an entire de-nazification program in Germany to reverse the effects of years of state sponsored racist and authoritarian propaganda.

Yes, this fits with the footage of the black cop being 'chased' up the stairs by part of the mob - they were asking him, "Are you a pedophile?"

The thing is, it can become like a mantra in order to 'validate' their wish to gain access to whatever they want. It's a bit like when some relatively dysfunctional people who want to be their own boss set up a charity or NGO for what they say they believe is a 'good cause' - so that they can obtain a salary and a position of status/leadership on their own terms. If they are challenged, then they retreat into a sense of moral superiority and viciously lash out at their challengers - framing them as being 'part of the problem' that they are attempting to solve.

Interestingly, many QAnon supporters seem to be going to even more convoluted lengths to try to explain away why Trump encouraged them to "go wild", and then punish them with full force of the law:

Donald Trump fans cry betrayal as he rebukes Capitol violence
The Guardian, 8 Jan 2021

A widely shared screengrab summed up the sentiment: “He says it’s going to be wild and when it gets wild he calls it a heinous attack and middle-fingers to his supporters he told to be there.”

Others turned to conspiracy theories, not least in the dark corners of 4chan and Parler, where the cult of QAnon holds sway. Many here saw not a Trump concession but either a “deep fake” video concocted by Trump’s enemies, or secret messages that indicated Trump was still on track to deliver on QAnon’s deranged promises.

Action is finally being taken to limit the ability of 'sophists posing as socratics' to cause such widespread disinformation, at least:

Twitter permanently suspends Trump's account to prevent 'further incitement of violence'
The Guardian, 8 Jan 2021

Figures such as the former national security adviser Michael Flynn, Trump attorney Sidney Powell, the 8Chan administrator Ron Watkins, and attorney Lin Wood have spent weeks stoking the flames of QAnon-inflected election conspiracies on Twitter, with their false allegations reaching both masses of Trump supporters and Trump himself.

On Friday, Twitter permanently suspended the accounts of Flynn, Powell and Watkins for violating its policy against “coordinated harmful activity”. Wood was suspended on Thursday.

“We’ve been clear that we will take strong enforcement action on behavior that has the potential to lead to offline harm, and given the renewed potential for violence surrounding this type of behavior in the coming days, we will permanently suspend accounts that are solely dedicated to sharing QAnon content,” a company spokesperson said.

[JohnD]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-08/ ... r/13041316
This article is along the lines of my thinking regarding the mobs.

[Mossling]

The rightwing media has been spinning the key criminal elements of the mob (breaking Capitol building windows, violence, etc.) as undercover antifa - dressed as Trump supporters.

They haven't caught the person who killed the police officer with a fire extinguisher yet.

And even when Law maker Derrick Evans, a Republican West Virginia state representative, filmed and named himself as he ecstatically broke in and 'stormed' the building, I suppose it can also be spun as a one-off nutjob who got caught up in the crowd.

I'm guessing for younger people like Derrick Evans, the apparent new post-truth paradigm that so stunningly awarded someone of Trump's known decadence and degenerative persuasions the most powerful position on the planet, it must truly have seemed that it was going to be a New Age, and he had to get in on the emerging power structures as early as possible. His video footage was no doubt going to be the evidence that HE WAS THERE - during what would become the famous event that ushered in the new Trumpian QAnon Era.

Right now, I expect there's a lot of Trump-invested people going through footage desperately looking for ANY connection of people in the mob with non-Trumpian or non-QAnon politics, just so that they can back up their spin with the same powerful video evidence that the likes of Derrick Evans and others have provided.

[JohnD]

QAnon is a group that isn't a group. This we all know. So, what's behind them. Isn't it possible that it be KKK? Aren't KKK known for disruptive behavior? That Trump would have KKK connections isn't beyond me. The ABC is a neutral news program I check out on a regular basis. Possibly one of the few non-right wing news media still standing. It is a vagary that has had me wondering that when the BLM was protesting everyone was there. The police, army, national guard, everyone. Yet with the episode yesterday none of these were present, why? Why were they allowed to get so far without any hindrance?

[Mossling]

QAnon is a group that isn't a group. This we all know. So, what's behind them. Isn't it possible that it be KKK?

That guy with the buffalo head dress calls himself 'Q shaman' - you can start with him, the group he belongs to and the people who follow or he finds affinity with in his Q beliefs/religion. A "group" seems to only require 2 or 3 people in order to exist, and the beliefs of QAnon have already been reported on widely. So it IS a group, but no, it doesn't seem to have any official office anywhere that you can visit.

As regards KKK, I doubt it, personally.

why? Why were they allowed to get so far without any hindrance?

Indeed. It seems to suggest an inside job. Capitol police chief already fired. I'm sure more on this story will come out. Looking forward to it.

[JohnD]

Just watching German news and the commentator is saying after Trump was suspended from Twitter he has moved to Parler. A right-wing site where all his beliefs are real.

[Serpent]

I suppose he and his kook army need a place of their own. If they're banned from the mainstream, they have to move to their alternate reality, where they can be monitored by the still functional branches of law-enforcement. Let them poison their own air supply. They can't help it: they have the attention span of a may-fly, so to get one-another's applause, they have to keep ramping up the rhetoric, making ever more outlandish claims and pronouncement. Gradually, all the sane people at the margins of this movement will turn away in disgust and their membership will dwindle to an arrestable number. Then they can be quietly rounded up and the marginal adherents rehabilitated.
That is, if mainstream news and social media really do make an effort to bar them from the public eye. As long as they're given a real-world stage to performs on, they'll keep acting out - and, as with the rhetoric, their antics would also have to keep escalating. Until there is a bonafide blazing-guns confrontation with a properly constituted militia - or several militias in different states.
Action movies are all very well, but these dementos forget they're acting!

[Mossling]

Parler is on its way out now, even, it seems, since mainstream big tech, having had fingers pointed at it for giving a platform to hate speech and those who encourage others to act criminally upon such hatred have banned it from their sites.

There's an interesting debate ongoing about freedom of speech and whether banning Trump from speaking on social media is not in keeping with American traditions.

There have been laws prohibiting hate speech for a while now, anyway, and there is the fact that Twitter, Facebook, etc., are private companies who can dictate their own rules regarding what is deemed acceptable. They are not government entities or police forces curbing anyone's legal rights.

[doogles]

I have friends in business who are always express disappointment about the 'stuff-ups' they receive from suppliers of essential goods for their trades or of appointed deadlines for transactions and the like. I have friends not in business who express disappointment about the faulty jobs they have received by tradesmen and the like.

I don't experience disappointment anymore at my age now because I've learned that most people I deal with 'stuff-up' one way or the other. If ever I'm reliant on other people to do a job of any kind, I expect 'stuff-ups' or failures of one kind or another. So I'm never disappointed. On the other hand, if by some rare chance the task is performed and completed in a reasonable and satisfactory kind of way, I am quite pleased and surprised. But that's not common.

It's the same with Politics, including information integrity in Politics. I expect unfulfilled promises and deceitfulness no matter who is in power. And I'm never disappointed.

If you expect perfection, honesty and integrity, you will always be disappointed. Politics simply cannot work that way. It's sad, but we humans are innately deceitful by nature.

I note that I have friends out of the past who've had the same attitude as myself towards politics --

John Adams -- In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm and three or more is a government.

Mark Twain -- Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of government. But then I repeat myself.

Will Rogers -- I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts.

Mark Twain (1866) -- No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session.

[Serpent]

There have been laws prohibiting hate speech for a while now, anyway, and there is the fact that Twitter, Facebook, etc., are private companies who can dictate their own rules regarding what is deemed acceptable. They are not government entities or police forces curbing anyone's legal rights.

Communication companies are accountable. They can be subject to revocation of their license, as well as legal action, private or class law suits, if they don't adhere to FCC standard. Moreover, every used of their platforms is apprised of this when they sign up; signs a statement that they have read, understood and accepted the terms of use. You break the contract, you don't get to demand service!

PS Doogles - I hope you're not putting all public officials in the same basket with Trump. The rest of us are still praying - yes, even the atheists! - that he's a one-off.

[Forest_Dump]

I think an important point is that while Trump might be an exception in some ways, there was something about that exception that appealed to over 70 million voters. Unless that is addressed it is only a matter of time (and perhaps very little time) before someone a lot smarter travels down the same path. Focusing on Trump gives him far too much credit. I don't think he was all that exceptional. IMHO he was not a "great man" but it was the "right" time for someone like him and that is where the attention should be directed.

[Serpent]

Neither were Wallace and Goldwater, but they tapped the same rich fount of insecure exceptionalism on which the American oppressor class has always fed and battened.
It can only be 'addressed' by a sincere and profound self-examination - something for which Americans have shown little appetite. The Germans had to do it after Hitler. The question is, does the US wait until after that smarter great man, or will this warm-up act convince them of the need?

[JohnD]

Doogles, I agree everyone makes mistakes. I have made many in my lifetime and at times like now I just want to crawl away somewhere and just give up but life goes on and demands we continue taking action. I don't live in the US nor am I close enough to people's thinking there but to place Trump in the class of a mistake is too forgiving. Obviously, there is a groundswell of opinion that has been wanting change and is willing to vote for someone like Trump.

[Serpent]

Obviously, there is a groundswell of opinion that has been wanting change and is willing to vote for someone like Trump.

Can you identify the origin and purpose of that groundswell? What motivates those voters?

It's not one faction that wants change, and those people don't all want the same change. The patchwork of conservatives who voted for Trump is not represented by the mob in that assault on the capitol - and a great many Republicans are horrified by those events. There are at least five distinct blocs in the minority that put him into office, each with a different central issue, and their numbers have decreased between elections. Hopefully, they will decrease considerably more in the next two years. Then we should see some actual change, rather than false attempts to bring back the fifties - only better: without trade unions, regulation of business or social welfare.

[JohnD]

I couldn't agree with you more Serpent. A groundswell doesn't, at least in my eyes, suggest a singular group or purpose. In fact, it is by nature in the meaning of groundswell that it takes into account a variety of individuals and groups with one common foresight, change. From what I see from my vantage it involves the retardation of values and quality of life along with the constant barrage of misinformation that tells all that somehow not having is a good thing.

[doogles]

Serpent, thanks for the comment. I was referring to ALL human beings, not just Donald Trump. This thread was initially about Collapse in Information Integrity, particularly in Post Truth Politics. I am now 89, and one of the things I accept in life is that ALL of us basically have our own interests (and points of view) at heart and that we tend to defend them as our number one priority, but as a corollary, we also don't like to be seen that we are putting ourselves first. It seems sensible to me to accept that. If anyone expects honesty, integrity and transparency from our politicians, they will always be disappointed. Politics does not seem to be able to operate with total tranparency.

I first saw a statement that fitted this impression of mine 40 years ago.

Richard Alexander (Richard D. Alexander - Wikipedia) made some points in his 1979 book on Darwinism and Human Affairs. He postulated (p 134) that “No one is less attractive as an associate than someone who is known to be utterly selfish, with only his own interests at heart, or is a known liar – one who deceives deliberately and in circumstances in which the gain to himself is the greatest. … humans behave as if they are concerned with their own genetic interests, and that they are also masters at deceiving others. I suggest that the separateness of our individual self-interests, and the conflicts among us that derive from this separateness, have created a social milieu in which, paradoxically, the only way we can actually maximise our own self-interest and deceive successfully is by continually denying – at least in certain social arenas – that we are doing such things. By conveying the impression that we do not intend to deceive, and that we are in fact altruistic and have the interests of others at heart, we actually advance our own (evolutionary) self-interest. … The result, I believe, is that in our social scenario-building, we have evolved to deceive even ourselves about our motives.” I apologise for the length of the quote but his insight was unique and correct, in my opinion. It sums up politicians and ordinary citizens (Of course it doesn't apply to members of this forum, does it?)

Forest_Dump -- I liked your overview of the situation and your observation that -- "... Trump might be an exception in some ways, there was something about that exception that appealed to over 70 million voters. Unless that is addressed ... ". And Serpent -- " ... It can only be 'addressed' by a sincere and profound self-examination - something for which Americans have shown little appetite." And JohnD -- "... Obviously, there is a groundswell of opinion that has been wanting change and is willing to vote for someone like Trump."

I believe that such analyses would be constructive and useful for everybody, not only in the USA, but globally.

Words are cheap unless followed by actions. Any ideas about who could conduct such a scientific analysis of the reasons why the 70 million voted for Trump? There must be social and political scientists all over the USA looking for fields of study.

[Serpent]

Just to get started:
https://www.wgbh.org/news/politics/2019/02/21/how-did-america-become-so-divided-a-new-book-seeks-to-explain
https://www.oprahmag.com/entertainment/books/g23804630/best-political-books/
https://www.businessinsider.com/11-books-that-will-make-you-smarter-about-politics-2018-6
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/10/a-reading-guide-for-those-in-despair-about-american-politics/504707/

[Mossling]

Doogles I do tend to agree with your sentiment about it never really being perfect - when providing service or approaching Truth. 75% 'functionality' is perhaps adequate for peacetime management of a resourceful nation like USA. I have been becoming quite a 'fan' of Hegelian rational 'pessimism', in fact, since the Trump & Brexit debacles landed on the West.

Who is responsible for it? How did it occur?

Well it seems the social media fact checking and blocking was nowhere near what it is right now. That is surely one aspect.