Why being racist is highly illogical

This is a forum for discussing philosophical theories of government and social structure. It is not a venue for partisan rants or plugging favored candidates.

Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Revolutionary on February 8th, 2017, 6:25 pm 

If you think about it if two brothers and sisters can be so different but, they are from the same race and ethnicity what would make anyone think that people from the same race and different families are similar?
Revolutionary
Member
 
Posts: 88
Joined: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Los Angeles, CA


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Eclogite on February 8th, 2017, 7:44 pm 

That appears to be an argument for racism, not against it.

A well ordered society benefits from having broad agreement on how that society should function and how individuals within that society should interact. Individuals or groups who behave in significantly different ways are likely to disrupt the society and should therefore be avoided, excluded or controlled. That is the logical approach.

And you have just argued that it will not be surprising to discover that races have major differences between them.

Would you like take another stab at formulating your thesis?
Eclogite
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 1388
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Location: Around and about


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Lomax on February 8th, 2017, 8:27 pm 

Revolutionary, I moved this thread to political theory because the logic forum is for discussion about logic itself, rather than application of logic to other matters. Just in case you're wondering where your thread went.

Eclogite, I think you focus on the extremities of diversity. Disagreement, as well as differences in skills, ideas and attitudes, are not just beneficial to the running of democratic society but necessary for it. The division of labour is one example of something which strongly benefits. Artistic diversity is another.

I also don't see that Revolutionary's argument is an argument for racism. (S)he does not argue that races have differences between them, but that individuals have differences between them, regardless of their race - and therefore to treat one race as having one attribute, and another, another, would be false - races don't have universal attributes at all.

To answer your question, Revolutionary, I think some people imagine that people can be categorised by race because they have a need to feel out-group hostility, for various reasons. Often it is scapegoating - your life sucks, so tell yourself there's an identifiable group of people who are causing it to suck, and try to oppress, expel or eliminate that group. It's a way of making complicated problems simple, usually for minds who cannot grasp complicated ones.

Others are just racist because they were raised racist and don't believe that daddy could be wrong about anything. Still others, for whatever reason, believe they have empirical evidence for differences between (perceived) races. The Bell Curve is a famous and controversial example of such a claim.

I also think factors such as the confirmation bias play a role. Louis CK talks about how a waitress told him that black customers usually tip less - even if this is true, Louis responds, why are you counting? You don't count whether blue-eyed customers tip less. So I think sometimes the search for racial differences is a simplistic (and simple-minded) search for patterns, between easily visible variables.
User avatar
Lomax
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 3653
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Nuneaton, UK
BraininvatRevolutionary liked this post


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Revolutionary on February 8th, 2017, 8:43 pm 

I agree with Lomax.
Revolutionary
Member
 
Posts: 88
Joined: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Los Angeles, CA


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Revolutionary on February 8th, 2017, 8:52 pm 

Sometimes the exposure to the other race or religion isn't there either. Sometimes the exposure eliminates the lies.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bla ... 3a08f495fc
Revolutionary
Member
 
Posts: 88
Joined: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Los Angeles, CA


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby ronjanec on February 8th, 2017, 10:11 pm 

You have now opened up a real can of worms here Lomax from one of the many injured parties: "Confirmation bias"? "Why are you counting?"! "You don't count whether blue-eyed customers tip less?" Louis CK is full of it;

As someone who was a lifelong salesmen and who also worked part-time at night as a waiter and pizza delivery guy here in Chicago for extra CASH(and busboy all through high school), the vast majority of Black people do not tip, and even when they do, the amount is so small that they may as well not have tipped to begin with. Almost all waiters waitresses and pizza delivery guys here in Chicago absolutely dread having a Black customer(s) for the exact same reason.

"Why are you counting?" Well, there is again usually nothing to count you stupid dummy. They don't count whether blue-eyed customers tip less because they don't (almost always) tip less you big stupid dummy. Their not liking Black people or being racist or bigoted against Black people is not the issue here, most Black people not tipping is the issue here you stupid dummy.

Sorry for the rant...but I could not let this bullshit go unchallenged.
ronjanec
Resident Member
 
Posts: 4301
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Location: Chicago suburbs


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Lomax on February 8th, 2017, 10:26 pm 

ronjanec » February 9th, 2017, 3:11 am wrote:As someone who was a lifelong salesmen and who also worked part-time at night as a waiter and pizza delivery guy here in Chicago for extra CASH(and busboy all through high school), the vast majority of Black people do not tip, and even when they do, the amount is so small that they may as well not have tipped to begin with. Almost all waiters waitresses and pizza delivery guys here in Chicago absolutely dread having a Black customer(s) for the exact same reason.

"Why are you counting?" Well, there is again usually nothing to count you stupid dummy. They don't count whether blue-eyed customers tip less because they don't (almost always) tip less you big stupid dummy. Their not liking Black people or being racist or bigoted against Black people is not the issue here, most Black people not tipping is the issue here you stupid dummy.

Did you have "stupid dummy" on copy-and-paste here? I can't say I noticed any such thing when I was a waiter (or now that I'm a bartender) but let's suppose I'm just not observant. What would you say is the average amount blue-eyed people tip?
User avatar
Lomax
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 3653
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Nuneaton, UK


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Revolutionary on February 8th, 2017, 10:35 pm 

Wow that escalated fast...
Revolutionary
Member
 
Posts: 88
Joined: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Lomax liked this post


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby ronjanec on February 8th, 2017, 10:47 pm 

Lomax » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:26 pm wrote:
ronjanec » February 9th, 2017, 3:11 am wrote:As someone who was a lifelong salesmen and who also worked part-time at night as a waiter and pizza delivery guy here in Chicago for extra CASH(and busboy all through high school), the vast majority of Black people do not tip, and even when they do, the amount is so small that they may as well not have tipped to begin with. Almost all waiters waitresses and pizza delivery guys here in Chicago absolutely dread having a Black customer(s) for the exact same reason.

"Why are you counting?" Well, there is again usually nothing to count you stupid dummy. They don't count whether blue-eyed customers tip less because they don't (almost always) tip less you big stupid dummy. Their not liking Black people or being racist or bigoted against Black people is not the issue here, most Black people not tipping is the issue here you stupid dummy.

Did you have "stupid dummy" on copy-and-paste here? I can't say I noticed any such thing when I was a waiter (or now that I'm a bartender) but let's suppose I'm just not observant. What would you say is the average amount blue-eyed people tip?


Usually around 17-20% for waiters and waitresses at good restaurants here in Chicago if the service is ok, and a 4 or 5 dollar tip for your usual pizza delivery order of around 23 to 29 dollars.
ronjanec
Resident Member
 
Posts: 4301
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Location: Chicago suburbs


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Lomax on February 8th, 2017, 10:49 pm 

Righto. I commend you for having been able to keep up with the maths while on the job; you were sharper than I was in my waiting days. So my next question is: if blue-eyed people tipped less on average, would you have developed a disdain for them?
User avatar
Lomax
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 3653
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Nuneaton, UK


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby ronjanec on February 8th, 2017, 10:52 pm 

Revolutionary » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:35 pm wrote:Wow that escalated fast...


You have now entered a who gives a shit about political "correctness" zone, otherwise known as the conservative reality zone. :)
ronjanec
Resident Member
 
Posts: 4301
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Location: Chicago suburbs


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Revolutionary on February 8th, 2017, 10:57 pm 

Ronjanec are you a Conservative. I tend to lean Conservative but, like to think of myself as an independent thinker.
Revolutionary
Member
 
Posts: 88
Joined: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Los Angeles, CA


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby ronjanec on February 8th, 2017, 11:00 pm 

Lomax » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:49 pm wrote:Righto. I commend you for having been able to keep up with the maths while on the job; you were sharper than I was in my waiting days. So my next question is: if blue-eyed people tipped less on average, would you have developed a disdain for them?


I had to do quotes in my head all day long as a salesmen so I am very good at basic math. I would most definitely have developed a disdain for them despite my being one of them. "Hey, I think the bleached blondes at that table are in your section Lomax"
ronjanec
Resident Member
 
Posts: 4301
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Location: Chicago suburbs


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby ronjanec on February 8th, 2017, 11:02 pm 

Revolutionary » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:57 pm wrote:Ronjanec are you a Conservative. I tend to lean Conservative but, like to think of myself as an independent thinker.


Most definitely a Conservative Revolutionary...welcome to the forum.
ronjanec
Resident Member
 
Posts: 4301
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Location: Chicago suburbs


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Lomax on February 8th, 2017, 11:06 pm 

ronjanec » February 9th, 2017, 4:00 am wrote:
Lomax » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:49 pm wrote:Righto. I commend you for having been able to keep up with the maths while on the job; you were sharper than I was in my waiting days. So my next question is: if blue-eyed people tipped less on average, would you have developed a disdain for them?


I had to do quotes in my head all day long as a salesmen so I am very good at basic math. I would most definitely have developed a disdain for them despite my being one of them. "Hey, I think the bleached blondes at that table are in your section Lomax"

Ha, well I always make sure of that. But now I think I see a problem. Suppose tipping habits just vary from individual to individual - regardless of physical traits. They're not going to be uniform across every phenotype, are they? The luck of the draw guarantees that there's going to be a physical correlation between some physical characteristic, and deficient tipping. So avenues are opened up for everybody to hate some kind of person or another, based on a relatively very small empirical sample.

For some reason, the only traits ever mentioned seem to be simple, easy to spot things like sex and race. I doubt anybody here believes for a second that you were actually keeping count of your average tip by eye-colour. What about by shirt colour? Hair thickness? How many traits can you make note of at a time?

This is why confirmation bias plays a role.

One last question: what's the average tip you got from all customers, overall? (And yes, I'm laying a trap.)
User avatar
Lomax
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 3653
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Nuneaton, UK


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Lomax on February 8th, 2017, 11:06 pm 

And I should have said it myself: welcome to the forum. Perhaps now the forum will have that conservative revolution Ron's been holding out for.
User avatar
Lomax
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 3653
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Nuneaton, UK


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby ronjanec on February 8th, 2017, 11:28 pm 

Pizza delivery usually averaged 4 to 5 bucks a delivery good tippers and bad included. Waiter average? I don't know. That was all over the place depending on the day of week, size of tables, etc.

The Chicago Bulls game is just starting so what was the trap I just fell into as usual?
ronjanec
Resident Member
 
Posts: 4301
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Location: Chicago suburbs


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Revolutionary on February 8th, 2017, 11:32 pm 

If you guys want to get to know me you can read this. http://bakshandehariel.wixsite.com/website
Revolutionary
Member
 
Posts: 88
Joined: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Los Angeles, CA


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Lomax on February 8th, 2017, 11:34 pm 

ronjanec » February 9th, 2017, 4:28 am wrote:Pizza delivery usually averaged 4 to 5 bucks a delivery good tippers and bad included. Waiter average? I don't know. That was all over the place depending on the day of week, size of tables, etc.

The Chicago Bulls game is just starting so what was the trap I just fell into as usual?

Haha. Well you quoted the same numbers for blue-eyed people as you quoted for the population at large. Since very few black people have blue eyes, (and since you say black people barely tipped at all) it follows that blue-eyed people were tipping you less than the rest of the white people were. So if I see you wandering into my bar it's back o' the queue for you, ol' baby blue. :)
User avatar
Lomax
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 3653
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Nuneaton, UK


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby ronjanec on February 8th, 2017, 11:59 pm 

Huh? The blue-eyed people made up for the stiffs and tipped more on average to again equal 4 to 5 per pizza delivery. ???
ronjanec
Resident Member
 
Posts: 4301
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Location: Chicago suburbs


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Lomax on February 9th, 2017, 12:29 am 

No; they're tipping the same as the average customer (according to you). If black customers aren't tipping at all, then white customers are tipping more than the average, in order to bring it up from 0 (the average black tip) to where it is. Except, you say, blue-eyed people (who are almost exclusively white) aren't tipping more than the average. Which means they're tipping less than the white average. So, following your advice, if I had to choose between serving a blue-eyed customer and a hazel-eyed one, I'd probably do better to go with the hazel-eyed one first.

And yet I've never heard anybody say "ugh, blue-eyed people. They don't tip enough". Even though we have the numbers to prove it! Why is that?

So it seems to me that these are your options: You can hold your findings against blue-eyed people, at least relative to other whites. You can renege on your earlier claim that, if it could be shown that blue-eyed people tip less, it would be a cause for disdain (which leaves the question of why black people don't get the same mercy). You can admit that you don't really know how much blue-eyed people tip as opposed to other white people, which would be an admission both of earlier dishonesty, and of confirmation-bias against a skin colour (QED, right?). You can argue that there weren't enough black customers to noticeably bring down the overall average, which would be an admission of a sample size so small it can't possibly demonstrate anything. Or you can concede Louis CK's (and my) point. Choice is yours.
User avatar
Lomax
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 3653
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Nuneaton, UK


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Braininvat on February 9th, 2017, 1:33 am 

This is fun. Partly because I get to mention the time I met Louis CK, a year or two before he was as famous as now. He was a friend of my neighbor's (who also had done standup comedy for several years), and had paid him a visit while in town. On leaving, he saw me outside replacing the bad generator in my Honda Civic, and for some reason came over to talk. I had no idea who he was. It was funny, we just seemed to be on the same frequency that day, and talked about technology and how enigmatic most of it is - as in, newer cars were much harder to tinker with than the old heap I was working on. When I saw his standup act, years later, I realized that when we talked about how people take technology for granted, he was germinating the seed of his famous "Everything is amazing, nobody is happy" routine.

Anyway, I have to say he was a very unpretentious down-to-earth person and quite affable in that way some people have where you can just starting chatting with them like you're old friends.

A lot of human behavior, like tipping, has been found to relate to how a person is treated in a given social context. I think studies have been conducted where it was found that attractive people tipped more, and it was hypothesized that this was owing to positive expectations people generally have about someone who is attractive. If people seem to expect good things from you, you tend to rise to the occasion.
User avatar
Braininvat
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 6288
Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Black Hills
SciameriKenLomax liked this post


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Lomax on February 9th, 2017, 1:38 am 

I'm envious. He was a car mechanic for decades I believe, so that could be why he came over. And I'll definitely find ways to apply those study findings :)
User avatar
Lomax
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 3653
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Nuneaton, UK


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby ronjanec on February 9th, 2017, 1:43 am 

"What's the average tip you got from all customers overall?" you asked: I answered: "Pizza delivery usually averaged 4 to 5 bucks a delivery good tippers and bad included";

If I complaining about Black people usually tipping nothing versus the blue-eyed people, the blue-eyed people must obviously be tipping more to bring up the overall average just like I am saying here in my answer to your question. ???
ronjanec
Resident Member
 
Posts: 4301
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Location: Chicago suburbs


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Lomax on February 9th, 2017, 1:51 am 

ronjanec » February 9th, 2017, 6:43 am wrote:"What's the average tip you got from all customers overall?" you asked: I answered: "Pizza delivery usually averaged 4 to 5 bucks a delivery good tippers and bad included";

If I complaining about Black people usually tipping nothing versus the blue-eyed people, the blue-eyed people must obviously be tipping more to bring up the overall average just like I am saying here in my answer to your question. ???

You quoted the same numbers for what blue eyed people tip as you did for what people overall tip, so by your own admission they can't be tipping more than the average. Due to the fact that black people aren't tipping, white people are tipping more than the average (that's what an average is: it has to be somewhere in between the lower and upper limit). So it follows that, by tipping the exact average, blue eyed people (who are nearly always white) are tipping less than the rest of white people. That's as plainly as I can word it at 6am.
User avatar
Lomax
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 3653
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Nuneaton, UK


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby ronjanec on February 9th, 2017, 2:16 am 

The important point here is again that Black people will stiff you far more often than not Lomax, and I and many others speak from actual experience here. If you could take an anonymous poll of restaurant workers here in Chicago, they would also tell you the exact same thing that I am telling you. And I honestly don't know why most Black people are like this in regards to tipping, but it is what it is.

http://www.ebony.com/news-views/are-bla ... z4YAP0wPci By the way, even some of their own are willing to actually admit that they are really terrible tippers collectively as an ethnic group.
Last edited by ronjanec on February 9th, 2017, 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
ronjanec
Resident Member
 
Posts: 4301
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Location: Chicago suburbs


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Lomax on February 9th, 2017, 2:28 am 

ronjanec » February 9th, 2017, 7:16 am wrote:The important point here is again that Black people will stiff you far more often than not Lomax, and I and many others speak from actual experience here. If you could take an anonymous poll of restaurant workers here in Chicago, they would also tell you the exact same thing that I am telling you. And I honestly don't know why most Black people are like this in regards to tipping, but it is what it is.

That's fine but, accidentally, you've told me a similar thing about the blue-eyed ones. Without even noticing. Which is exactly Louis's point.
User avatar
Lomax
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 3653
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Nuneaton, UK


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby ronjanec on February 9th, 2017, 2:41 am 

What do you think of the link I just posted from another Black person about this from no less than Ebony magazine Lomax? Do you still think Louis is right about this when one of the writers from a very important Black publication here in the US also says Louis CK is dead wrong about this?
ronjanec
Resident Member
 
Posts: 4301
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Location: Chicago suburbs


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby Braininvat on February 9th, 2017, 11:24 am 

You just don't get the larger point. If people with moles tip less than average, would you even notice that? Would you look up magazine articles to buttress your assertion that people with moles tip less? Would you have chats with coworkers about those people with moles, and everyone would be saying, yeah, I had a dude with moles the other day and he was a lousy cheapskate? Would there be confirmation bias going on? Would your expectations from mole-bearing people change so that you started treating them subtly differently, which caused them in turn to tip even less when they pick up an attitude from you?

And finally, regarding the Ebony article: does being black and writing for a popular magazine mean that, somehow, you are a representative of all black people everywhere??? Would this make you a skilled statistician who was an expert on the behavior of your ethnic group? Do you see why this all seems pretty shaky to me, in terms of drawing firm conclusions about people and what they are like? It comes across more as casual folklore, like someone telling me I'm loquacious because I'm part-Irish (or does that mean I'm partly loquacious, interspersed with moments of Norwegian taciturnity?).
User avatar
Braininvat
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 6288
Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Black Hills
d30Lomax liked this post


Re: Why being racist is highly illogical

Postby vivian maxine on February 9th, 2017, 11:56 am 

Heavens to Betsy! I promised myself I'd stay out these silly arguments but I have to ask. Are you all saying that when you go to serve a customer you first take note of the color of his eyes? Gracious! I don't even know the color of eyes my friends have. I never felt a need to know what color their eyes are. I just want to know who they are. Rarely does eye color stand out enough to grab attention.

I think I'll do a survey of waiters/waitresses.
vivian maxine
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2837
Joined: 01 Aug 2014
RevolutionaryLomax liked this post


Next

Return to Political Theory

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests