Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on February 21st, 2018, 5:41 am 

BadgerJelly » February 21st, 2018, 5:40 pm wrote: the balance between the animal instinct and reason.


Is anyone listening?
- This Trump accuser keeps asking herself that. But she plans to keep talking about that day in 2006
The Washington Post, February 19, 2018
“It all happened at Trump Tower,” she said. “I had just moved to New York, and I was working as a secretary for another company in the building. That’s where he forced himself on me.”
[...]
“He was waiting for the elevator outside our office when I got up the nerve to introduce myself,” she said now, remembering that day when she was 22 years old and Trump was 59. “It’s not like I was trying to upset the apple cart. I don’t know. Maybe I was being naive.”
[...]
“He took hold of my hand and held me in place like this,” she said, squeezing the sides of the water glass, shaking it gently from side to side. “He started kissing me on one cheek, then the other cheek. He was talking to me in between kisses, asking where I was from, or if I wanted to be a model. He wouldn’t let go of my hand, and then he went right in and started kissing me on the lips.”
[...]
“It felt like a long kiss,” she said. “The whole thing probably lasted two minutes, maybe less.”

“Like you were another piece of his property,” the hostess said.

“And with those orange lips!” another woman said.
[...]
here were 19 women in all who made public accusations of sexual misconduct, or “The Nineteen,” as they had come to be known on T-shirts and bumper stickers. Most had come forward with their stories after Trump launched his presidential campaign in 2015, and the experiences they described having with him spanned five decades. They claimed Trump had “acted like a creepy uncle,” or “squeezed my butt,” or “eyed me like meat,” or “stuck his hand up under my skirt,” or “groped with octopus hands,” or “pushed me against a wall,” or “thrust his genitals,” or “forced his tongue into my mouth” or “offered $10,000 for everything.”
[...]
“What can I ever do to prove this happened and that it impacted my life?” she said.

Maybe the proof was the email she had sent to her mother, from the Bayrock office in New York, at 1:27 that afternoon in 2006: “Hey Ma, my day started off rough…had a weird incident with Mr. Trump.”

Or the email she sent a few hours later to her sister at 3:05 p.m.: “I must just appear to be some dumb girl that he can take advantage of…ugh!”

Or the email she sent a few days after that to another relative: “Ah yes, the Donald kiss…very creepy man, let me tell you!”

Or the recorded conversation between Trump and Billy Bush on an “Access Hollywood” bus late in 2005, months before Crooks says she met Trump by the elevators: “You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful women. I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.”


So she has proof of her story from way back in 2006 - long before Trump's presidential campaign, and only a few months after Trumps infamous bus spiel.

It makes one wonder what indeed is exactly going on with all of this also:

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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby BadgerJelly on February 21st, 2018, 6:15 am 

Moss -

I guess that means you have nothing intelligent to say then?

Any mods considering moving this into "news" or starting a separate thread for "I hate Trump because ..."?

I fail to see how sexual accusations, true or otherwise, are worthy of discussion in regards to "Political Theory" ?? Is it just me revolted by this nonsense or should I abandon all hope for this side of the forum?
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on February 21st, 2018, 9:36 am 

BadgerJelly » February 21st, 2018, 7:15 pm wrote:Moss -

I guess that means you have nothing intelligent to say then?

Any mods considering moving this into "news" or starting a separate thread for "I hate Trump because ..."?

I fail to see how sexual accusations, true or otherwise, are worthy of discussion in regards to "Political Theory" ?? Is it just me revolted by this nonsense or should I abandon all hope for this side of the forum?

My dear Badger, my previous post was riffing off of the article zetreque shared which contained the following statement:
A tyrant, for Plato, wasn’t just someone who ruled over others; a tyrant is someone who can’t rule over himself. He’s Eros incarnate — pure impulse. He’s always in the thrall of his own lusts and passions.

Unfortunately your apparent visceral assessment of that article was no less opinionated than the posts you bemoaned during that assessment: "All I've seen is people espousing personal opinions". You did not support your stance on the article with any source materials or references regarding Plato's ideas - you just said "Anyway, what Plato was saying in The Republic was.." - as if your opinion was gospel.

I hope that you have noticed from my posting style, however, that I like to include academically valid references in order to substantiate my point of view. Now let us turn to Plato's Republic, Book 9, 573a4-b5 (Reeve, 2004, Hackett: Indianapolis), and see the actual quote for itself, shall we?
SOCRATES: And when the other appetites come buzzing around—filled with incense, perfumes, wreaths, wine, and all the other pleasures found in such company, they feed the drone, make it grow as large as possible, and plant the sting of longing in it. Then this popular leader of the soul adopts madness as its bodyguard and is stung to frenzy. If it finds any beliefs or appetites in the man that are regarded as good or are still moved by shame, it destroys them and throws them out, until it has purged him of temperance and filled him with imported madness.
ADEIMANTUS: You have perfectly described how a tyrannical man comes to exist.

Now, when looking at this particular result, I think the paragraph quoted in my previous post does describe Plato's Socratic notion of how a tyrant - a dictator - comes to exist:
They claimed Trump had “acted like a creepy uncle,” or “squeezed my butt,” or “eyed me like meat,” or “stuck his hand up under my skirt,” or “groped with octopus hands,” or “pushed me against a wall,” or “thrust his genitals,” or “forced his tongue into my mouth” or “offered $10,000 for everything.”

Does political theory not address how dictators or tyrants are created? Is Plato's Republic not concerned with political theory?
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on February 21st, 2018, 9:50 am 

And concerning the gossip regarding his daughter, we firstly have Socrates' context of argument in 571a:
SOCRATES: The tyrannical man himself remains to be investigated: how he evolves from a democratic one, what he is like once he has come to exist, and whether the way he lives is wretched or blessedly happy.

And then the key detail concerning sexual indulgence at 571c3-d5:
SOCRATES: The ones that wake up when we are asleep, whenever the rest of the soul—the rational, gentle, and ruling element—slumbers. Then the bestial and savage part, full of food or drink, comes alive, casts off sleep, and seeks to go and gratify its own characteristic instincts. You know it will dare to do anything in such a state, released and freed from all shame and wisdom. In fantasy, it does not shrink from trying to have sex with a mother or with anyone else—man, god, or beast. It will commit any foul murder, and there is no food it refuses to eat. In a word, it does not refrain from anything, no matter how foolish or shameful.
ADEIMANTUS: That’s absolutely true.


"there is no food it refuses to eat" - KFC and MacDonalds for example. Sorry it's difficult not to make such references.

But anyway, the rumours concerning Ivanka could be just empty. It matters not when there are a mere 19 women accusing him - most of them now suffering death threats and online abuse, which they had expected (and thus apparently kept quiet until they felt it their moral duty to their country to come out and sound the alarm).
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Braininvat on February 21st, 2018, 10:50 am 

"there is no food it refuses to eat" - KFC and MacDonalds for example.


LoL. I do think Badger might have some validity to his point. We do seem to stray from political theory now and then. I think the best approach, at least for me, is not to take the digressions too seriously. When people fear their government, humor is a useful safety valve.

There are plenty of dictator- ish actions Trump has taken, that the Right (and some "independent" voters here) have carefully avoided mentioning. The appointment of relatives, to positions for which they have zero qualifications, is one example.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on February 21st, 2018, 1:54 pm 

How can you discuss "Political Theory" and Trump in the same paragraph?
Does anyone still harbour the slightest vestige of belief that trump has a political agenda? That he actually cares about America or its people?
We know - from edicts he's signed and stamped - that he's happy to trash the land and the oceans in pursuit of profit. We know - from transactions on record - that he's happy to defraud and bankrupt business associates; that he's happy to renege on contracts and destroy livelihoods. We know - even if he hasn't released the actual documents - that he's happy to withhold his financial obligation to the commonwealth. We know - from recorded public speeches - that he's happy to see violent confrontation among the citizens, and that he can't tell perpetrators from victims.
There are no principles involved here; no policy.
Take it, grab it, gobble it up, lap it up... no plan and no discipline.

Trump is too old, impulsive and stupid to be a dictator... but that doesn't mean his administration isn't setting America up for a dictatorship soon to follow. The GOP for a long time, leading down to him, have stirred up all the resentments, conflicts, madness and badness; they've established the coercive agencies; they've built the bonfire and then, reluctantly, lit the match.

Trump may be too deranged to focus on consolidating power, but his heir(s) might be controllable. All a clever vizier needs do is wait, collect the dropped strings and pull them tight. One big threat, one big boogieman, and the power behind the throne could give Regent Jared Kushner discretionary power... just till the crisis is resolved, just until things are normalized....
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby BadgerJelly on February 21st, 2018, 1:56 pm 

Moss -

My dear Badger, my previous post was riffing off of the article zetreque shared


But you quoted me so I assumed that was the extent of your response. My bad I guess.

You did not support your stance on the article with any source materials or references regarding Plato's ideas - you just said "Anyway, what Plato was saying in The Republic was.." - as if your opinion was gospel.


I assume you've read The Republic? If you've read Book IX then I am baffled how you could suggest they are merely my "opinions"? You're either being obtuse or you've not read it. I didn't provide quotes because I didn't feel like picking out each and every relevant point over several pages (for anyone interested I guess it is easy enough to find The Republic online; look from 543-592.)

note: Plato refers to "tyrant" as being a bad dictator and the "Philosopher Ruler" as being the polar opposite - I am not suggesting Trump is a "Philosopher Ruler" btw ;)

In light of Plato I guess we'd have to assume the US is collapsing in on itself for such a "tyrant" to emerge in the first place? If so can you really place all the blame on the ugly symptoms? I am not so sure.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby zetreque on February 21st, 2018, 2:08 pm 

Serpent » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:54 am wrote:Trump is too old, impulsive and stupid to be a dictator... but that doesn't mean his administration isn't setting America up for a dictatorship soon to follow. The GOP for a long time, leading down to him, have stirred up all the resentments, conflicts, madness and badness; they've established the coercive agencies; they've built the bonfire and then, reluctantly, lit the match.

Trump may be too deranged to focus on consolidating power, but his heir(s) might be controllable. All a clever vizier needs do is wait, collect the dropped strings and pull them tight. One big threat, one big boogieman, and the power behind the throne could give Regent Jared Kushner discretionary power... just till the crisis is resolved, just until things are normalized....


This was one of the ideas in that article I posted. That He is too stupid to become a dictator but the situation was right for someone like him to come to power and the article warned that this gives an example of how an actual dictator can come to power in the US. The rest of your comment here I think almost goes into conspiracy theory because you are saying that it might be intentional.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby SciameriKen on February 21st, 2018, 3:04 pm 

zetreque » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:08 pm wrote:
Serpent » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:54 am wrote:Trump is too old, impulsive and stupid to be a dictator... but that doesn't mean his administration isn't setting America up for a dictatorship soon to follow. The GOP for a long time, leading down to him, have stirred up all the resentments, conflicts, madness and badness; they've established the coercive agencies; they've built the bonfire and then, reluctantly, lit the match.

Trump may be too deranged to focus on consolidating power, but his heir(s) might be controllable. All a clever vizier needs do is wait, collect the dropped strings and pull them tight. One big threat, one big boogieman, and the power behind the throne could give Regent Jared Kushner discretionary power... just till the crisis is resolved, just until things are normalized....


This was one of the ideas in that article I posted. That He is too stupid to become a dictator but the situation was right for someone like him to come to power and the article warned that this gives an example of how an actual dictator can come to power in the US. The rest of your comment here I think almost goes into conspiracy theory because you are saying that it might be intentional.



I disagree with this sentiment - I believe there is method to the madness. I think for all intents and purposes that trump himself is a "Trumper". The trumper philosophy is built upon religious-right conservatism that twinges upon the mass media influences of the republican think tanks and the Russians. Trump is immersed and both propagates it and shapes policy from it. Sadly the Trumper philosophy has little basis in reality.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on February 21st, 2018, 3:42 pm 

zetreque » February 21st, 2018, 1:08 pm wrote:... The rest of your comment here I think almost goes into conspiracy theory because you are saying that it might be intentional.

That the phrase "conspiracy theory" has been Orwellized in the last three decades is insufficient grounds to dismiss all awareness of conspiracies. They do exist, and always have. When the CIA or some other agency uncovers a conspiracy, that's their job, and the vindication of their methods. When anyone else sniffs at a conspiracy, however redolent, it cannot be true, simply by appending the label "theory".

In fact, I have no theory as to who that clever vizier, that eminence gris, will be - or is, if already in place. Look for some reliable, quiet functionary, who always applauds on cue and never draws the ruler's ire and steps forward only when face-saving advice is needed. I'm assuming here that all the Bushites have faded out or been pushed out. I'm not familiar with the ever-changing cast of characters; have not even a guess at who the conspirators are likely to be; at least one top general is required and at least one head of a clandestine 'security' organization, as well as some key appointees. I expect they'll shunt aside the religious leaders - once they'd done enough fomenting: the rising theocracy is too dangerous a rival to let near the center of power. Probably throw the white supremacy nuts in jail, when their usefulness is over .. unless they're the ones set up as the boogiemen- in that case, the most prominent ones will be killed.

Of-bloody-course it's has to be intentional! The debasement and erosion of the democratic process was only semi-deliberate. That is, a faction had something to gain, and sought dominance, all along the way, but probably without an end-game in mind. The last step can only be carried out with purpose.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on February 22nd, 2018, 12:52 am 

Serpent wrote:Trump is too old, impulsive and stupid to be a dictator...

As long as he is breathing, he is still clever enough. You've got to remember that his strategy, and many visceral Republicans also, is not a neocortical one, but a brainstem-driven agenda that comes naturally to us - as much as it does to an infant. Don't like it? Cry and lash out. Like it? Shove your lips on it.

There's no genius to tyranny really, is there. Of course he has been clever enough to avoid alcohol, and to maintain his presence among money-lenders and tycoons - apparently on an increasingly risky basis, but by following his childish instincts he'll still appear more sophisticated than a monkey. And that is all that it takes to maintain a veneer of humanity, is it not?

BadgerJelly » February 22nd, 2018, 2:56 am wrote:In light of Plato I guess we'd have to assume the US is collapsing in on itself for such a "tyrant" to emerge in the first place? If so can you really place all the blame on the ugly symptoms? I am not so sure.

Agreed - as posted elsewhere I believe the protestant work ethic is being threatened by automation and so a post-work world, with UBI, and so forth, would undermine the American 'ticket to heaven,' so to speak. I do see the rise of Trumpism as part of that degredation.

Serpent wrote:
zetreque » February 21st, 2018, 1:08 pm wrote:... The rest of your comment here I think almost goes into conspiracy theory because you are saying that it might be intentional.
Of-bloody-course it's has to be intentional! The debasement and erosion of the democratic process was only semi-deliberate. That is, a faction had something to gain, and sought dominance, all along the way, but probably without an end-game in mind. The last step can only be carried out with purpose.

I agree with this to some extent - there is the intention to survive playing out in any parasitic behaviour, and that will manifest in Trump's mind as clear selfish thoughts. And yet what can start out as "I'll only take a little", can easily escalate into gobbling the whole damn cake. We already know his appetites can be voracious, and so out of greed and a general parasitic inclination can come a whole agenda that perhaps was not planned to begin with.

As was said above - the Republicans were reluctant to light the hay stack but their hands were forced to some degree. Now everything is becoming warped into Republican FBI actors against a Republican congress and all kinds of weird stuff. The fabric of the system is being torn apart as Trump lashes out like a guy disoriented with dementia, and hitting his loved ones in the process.

There is definitely some sort of unravelling occurring.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on February 22nd, 2018, 7:50 pm 

Mossling » February 21st, 2018, 11:52 pm wrote:[Trump is too old, impulsive and stupid to be a dictator.]
There's no genius to tyranny really, is there.

There is no genius to inheriting a tyrannical system that somebody else has consolidated and cowed; where someone else has disarmed the competition and the opposition; where someone else has put the organs of propaganda in place, rigged the system and enabled the instruments of repression. The Bush II regime had gone some considerable way in the last requirement; the GOP has set the stage for several of the others. But the country is far from pacified, and the Trump administration is incapable of doing that.
A veneer of humanity is of no utility in consolidating power: one needs single-mindedness and an understanding of how to build advantage upon on advantage.
And this is a much bigger, more complex and heterogeneous nation - and a far more unruly one - than anything old Plato and Confucius had as templates for their prognostications.
Consult Machiavelli, not Socrates.

[...That is, a faction had something to gain, and sought dominance, all along the way, but probably without an end-game in mind. The last step can only be carried out with purpose.]
I agree with this to some extent - there is the intention to survive playing out in any parasitic behaviour, and that will manifest in Trump's mind as clear selfish thoughts. And yet what can start out as "I'll only take a little", can easily escalate into gobbling the whole damn cake. We already know his appetites can be voracious, and so out of greed and a general parasitic inclination can come a whole agenda that perhaps was not planned to begin with.

Trump and his appetites are irrelevant. The Republican party was gradually taken over by the greediest, most cynically self-serving of its fringes. They pushed out every moderate, intelligent, patriotic, progressive and responsible conservative, over a half century - date it back to Nixon via Roger Stone - and carried out a consistent policy of dividing Americans, one strategic group against another.
https://qz.com/645990/nixon-advisor-we-created-the-war-on-drugs-to-criminalize-black-people-and-the-anti-war-left/
We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”

Then, mostly at state level, they gerymandered and corrupted the electoral process, appointed anti-human-rights chief justices, undermined the voting eligibility of the poor and minorities. Then, they rigged up a primary structure that eliminates reasonable candidates right at the start.
This made it easy to pass legislation favouring corporations, the military and 'law-enforcement' at the expense of the working class, at all levels.

Once the whole system was corrupt, their choice of candidates became extremely limited. They had set the stage for a Jeb Bush or Newt Gingrich. Trump was an oversight: nobody seriously considered him until it was too late. If the party survives him, it will need a major reorganization. If the nation survives him, it will need a major political reform.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on February 24th, 2018, 1:24 am 

Serpent » February 23rd, 2018, 8:50 am wrote:And this is a much bigger, more complex and heterogeneous nation - and a far more unruly one - than anything old Plato and Confucius had as templates for their prognostications.
Consult Machiavelli, not Socrates.

I think that you award these 'conspirators' too much cognitive clarity though.
I highly recommend checking out some studies on risk-taking behaviour with regards to sexual arousal, alcohol intoxication, and habitual anger. It seems clear enough that the majority of decadent would-be conspirators are considerably limited in their intelligent risk-assessment capabilities. This is how they get caught time and again - their mental calculations are compromised by sex, wine, and fury - or, in more everyday terms, if you like: thinking below the belt, beer goggles, and red mists.

Socrates, in his asceticism, however, kept his senses clear, and this approach became championed by the likes of Diogenes of Synope, and his cynic protege Crates of Thebes. Crates is thus attributed with having written the following poem - a satire of a popular Homeric equivalent, presenting Pera (the Cynic's knapsack) as an actual place to arrive at:

There is a city, Pera in the wine-dark sea of folly,
Fair and fat, though filthy, with nothing much inside.
Never does there sail to it any foolish stranger,
Or lewd fellow who takes delight in the rumps of whores,
But it merely carries thyme and garlic, figs and loaves,
Things over which people do not fight or go to war,
Nor stand they to arms for small change or glory.


I fear your conspirators are too immersed in their "wine-dark sea of folly" whilst taking "delight in the rumps of whores" to actually have the clarity of complex perception to be able to orchestrate as fine a rug-pulling act as you illustrate. Nay, I believe their plan is to try and just get others hooked on the same stuff, with them being the ring-leaders in charge of the whole shebang, so to speak.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on February 24th, 2018, 1:57 pm 

Mossling » February 24th, 2018, 12:24 am wrote:[S - And this is a much bigger, more complex and heterogeneous nation - and a far more unruly one - than anything old Plato and Confucius had as templates ]
I think that you award these 'conspirators' too much cognitive clarity though.

Which conspirators?
Is the USA not more complex than Athens? More diverse than ancient China?

Do you mean that all the machinations of the far-right element in the GOP have been unconscious? Did you read the article I linked? Or at least the paragraph i quoted from it?
They knew exactly what they were doing.

It seems clear enough that the majority of decadent would-be conspirators are considerably limited in their intelligent risk-assessment capabilities. This is how they get caught time and again ..

I don't know what conspirators you're talking about. Kissinger never "got caught"; Roger stone never got caught; Grover Nordquist never got caught; **** Cheyney never got caught. That's not to say they didn't all get a lot of other people in trouble, and killed - but they don't care about the risk to others. That's one of the characteristics of sociopathy. It's the intelligent and evil ones - whether they're in a conspiracy or independent - who build up the infrastructure of tyranny, intending one of their own number to succeed to the throne - but may unwittingly
throw up a Caligua, or Prince Rudolph, who can't control his childish impulses.
Trump's people all get caught, but the right-wing political infrastructure, built over more than half a century, may already be established enough to insulate them from justice. It took a lot less incriminating evidence than the FBI has on Trump to bring Nixon down. Back then, there was still a fairly robust system of checks and balances in place. That's all been sabotaged and doesn't work anymore.

Socrates, in his asceticism, however, kept his senses clear, and this approach became championed by the likes of Diogenes of Synope, and his cynic protege Crates of Thebes.

And Socrates' political strategy was successful in what state?
In any case, why should we accept his definition of tyranny to limit our perception of it?

I fear your conspirators are too immersed in their "wine-dark sea of folly" whilst taking "delight in the rumps of whores" to actually have the clarity of complex perception to be able to orchestrate as fine a rug-pulling act as you illustrate. Nay, I believe their plan is to try and just get others hooked on the same stuff, with them being the ring-leaders in charge of the whole shebang, so to speak.

My conspirators? Do you mean Trump and his ever-shifting alliance of motley? That conspiracy is a bagatelle; an empty plastic gasoline can, floating on top of an island of plastic garbage. Light a match - or be unvigilant enough to let some white supremacist or religious wing-nut light one - and the whole vessel will melt into a black insoluble mass and sink into your wine-dark sea. And it will still be irrelevant.

As I said, Trump and his gang are not, and have never been, involved in the political dismantling of America. They're just the fallout. The damage had been done long before anyone heard of them, and will take far more than their disappearance to rectify.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Neri on March 5th, 2018, 12:39 am 

Confusion Regarding Due Process

President Trump made the statement (regarding the confiscation of firearms from dangerous madmen) that we should first seize the weapons and “worry about due process later.”

This statement was not only criticized by the liberal press (who never miss an opportunity to attack the president) but also by the right-wing gun lobby. Unfortunately, this whole business bespeaks a misunderstanding by all concerned of the meaning of “due process of the law” as contained in the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

The Constitution states that “no person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law.” Due process is of two types--procedural and substantive. The latter concerns the fundamental fairness of governmental action and does not necessarily refer to criminal or civil procedures. The former concerns the procedures of the criminal and civil law (principally, the criminal law).

In the present instance, we are basically talking about procedural due process.

To satisfy the procedural due process requirement of the Fifth Amendment, it is not necessary that every stage of the process be an adversary one in which there is counsel on both sides of the issue with the right to question witnesses.

In fact, in the criminal process, the initial stages do not involve counsel for the accused. However, they do typically (but not always) involve court approval.

Thus, the police may properly obtain a warrant from a judicial official to search the accused’s residence on a showing of probable cause even though neither the accused nor his counsel is present. This does not violate due process. Indeed, the Fourth Amendment specifically mandates it.

On a showing of probable cause, a judicial official may properly issue a warrant of arrest on evidence presented by the police where neither the accused or his counsel is present.

Indeed, a police officer may properly arrest a person when the officer actually sees that person committing a crime. An arrest, of course, is a deprivation of liberty, but such an arrest has never been held to constitute a violation of due process merely because there is neither judicial action nor the presence of counsel.

A warrant of arrest may also properly be issued by a court based upon the presentment of an investigating grand jury, even though neither the accused nor his counsel is present for the taking of evidence.

An indicting grand jury may properly approve a bill of indictment (a statement of the proper charges), after the arrest of an accused, based upon a probable cause proceeding at which neither the accused nor his counsel is present.

AFTER these early stages of the criminal process, a defendant does have the right to question the legal sufficiency of the search or arrest warrant in an adversary pre-trial proceeding in which he is represented by counsel.

If a wife informs the police of physical abuse by her husband and gives a written statement to that effect, the police may obtain an order from a judicial official (with neither the accused or his counsel counsel present) to eject, by force if necessary, the husband from the marital residence with a warning that he will be arrested if he returns. Not until later will the husband have his day in court with the right of counsel.

In the case of a mentally ill subject, if a family member or another person reports to the police the subject’s violent disposition and his possession of guns, the police may properly seek a warrant to seize the weapons and if the court approves the warrant, the guns will be properly seized—if, but only if, there is a state or federal law establishing such a procedure.

In such case, such governmental action will not constitute a violation of due process simply because neither the accused nor his counsel was present when the warrant was sought--provided the accused is THEREAFTER given the opportunity, at an adversary proceeding with the right of counsel, to question the propriety of the seizure.

There are a few states that have laws of this sort (referred to as Red Flag Laws). If the constitutionality of such laws is brought before the Supreme Court, it is my opinion that the Court will affirm them. Indeed, there is nothing fundamentally unfair about a law of this kind.

As far as the president’s remarks and the reaction of the press are concerned, both were laboring under the false impression that all due process necessarily involves an initial adversary proceeding. This is far from the case.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Braininvat on March 5th, 2018, 10:17 am 

Do you have links to provide evidence for the press reaction you are claiming here? I saw reports that simply reported that several coalitions did not like the president's wording, due to uncertainties about what "later" meant. As you may be aware, there have been places like Guantanamo where later meant decades, rather than months. I don't think anyone has a problem with how warrants are served, per se, but in how soon "thereafter" is going to be. Given that Trump has questioned constitutional procedure before, "worry about due process later" may have been too sloppy a wording where more precision was needed.

This whole thing seemed like a tempest in a teapot to me, given that Trump does seem to softening towards some rational gun control measures. Assuming he doesn't flip around 180 again, there could be some traction there.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on March 5th, 2018, 11:37 am 

Did Trump mention disarming a potential shooter for probable cause or issuing a warrant?
Because, this would not be the first time he advocated - jokingly, of course - less than polite handling of suspects by police.
Some people might begin to form the uneasy suspicion that he encourages the very kind of high-handed, ungentle police behaviour that the rest of us fear; the very kind of police force a free and open society cannot survive.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Neri on March 5th, 2018, 6:01 pm 

BIV,

The length of time between the arrest or other non-adversary governmental action and the trial or hearing varies.

Where an indictment is based upon the presentment of a grand jury, the trial typically occurs at least six months after indictment, during which time the defense is allowed full discovery of the government’s case.

Where the prosecution, based upon information provided by the police, draws up the charges, a preliminary hearing is usually had within a few weeks after the filing of the charges.

Such a hearing is not intended to determine the guilt or innocence of the defendant but rather to determine only if there is sufficient evidence to refer the matter for trial. However, the preliminary hearing is an adversary one in which the defendant is represented by counsel who has the right to cross-examine all witnesses presented by the state.

If the court finds in favor of the prosecution at the preliminary hearing, the trial is usually had within six months after drawing up of the formal charges.

In the case of a protection from abuse order, the adversary hearing is held within days after the husband is evicted from the marital residence. The same would be the case where guns are confiscated under a Red Flag Law.

You are right: The willingness of the president to face down the NRA is yet another example of the fact that he is a populist and not the raging reactionary that many imagine him to be.

As you know, the president has offered a plan far more favorable to immigrants covered by DACA than anything put forward by the Democrats and has been very protective of the rights of workers and those on Social Security. Yet, the blind hatred of those on the hard left continues unabated. This comes close to madness.

President Trump often expresses himself with insufficient precision, yet his meaning should be clear enough to any reasonable person who takes his comments in context. He certainly has his sexual failings as we all do but certainly no more than those found in Democrat presidents.

No one is perfect, yet, taking the good with the bad, President Trump has the potential to be a great president. Even a liberal like Dianne Finestein has conceded this. Of course, she has been punished for it by the mindless haters in her own party.

On the question of gun control, we are bound by the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the Second Amendment. The Court has decided that, based upon the right of self defense, there is a personal right to possess a firearm that does not depend on a person being a member of a state militia. However, the Court also held that this right is subject to reasonable limitations.

Because there is presently no real possibility that the Second Amendment will be abolished, we are left with the question of what is a reasonable limitation of the right to bear arms.

The Supreme Court made its decision in a case where the District of Columbia by local ordinance prohibited anyone from possessing a firearm in his home. This, they held, was an unreasonable restriction of the personal right to bear arms for self-defense.

Most state have enacted the Uniform Firearm Act, which allows the possession of a firearm in one’s home or place of business but forbids all convicted felons from possessing a firearm.

The Act allows a person to possess a firearm in an automobile or concealed on his person only if he has a license therefor as required by local law. The trouble is, some rural ordinances provide such a license to almost any non-felon--whereas, typically, it is very difficult—I would say almost impossible—to acquire such a license in large cities.

It seems likely that the Supreme Court will uphold the provisions of the Uniform Firearms Act as reasonable restrictions on the possession of firearms.

The gun extremists in the NRA have basically taken the position that they will oppose even reasonable restrictions on firearms possession on the groundless theory that this places the Second Amendment on the “slippery slope” to repeal.

A particularly egregious example of this is the NRA’s opposition to the proposal that guns be denied to suspected terrorists on the no-fly list. One can hardly imagine a more reasonable restriction on the right to possess a firearm. Yet, the NRA takes the preposterous position that a person too dangerous to be allowed to fly on an airplane should nonetheless be allowed to possess a firearm.

A closer question concerns the possession of so-called assault rifles. These weapons when used in war typically can be fired fully automatically (like a machine gun) and for this reason have a large-capacity magazine. They also have a shorter barrel but use cartridges no more powerful than those found in the typical hunting rifle.

A commercial form of this weapon is sold on the civilian market. However, in this case, the weapon cannot be fired fully automatically. That is, only one bullet at a time can be fired. It is not at all easy to convert such a gun to fire automatically. However, such a firearm retains the large magazine capacity and the shorter barrel length.

The self-defense argument in favor of the civilian possession of such a weapon runs basically as follows:

If, during times of riot, a large number of persons bent on looting, arson and deadly assaults enters a home or place of business, the persons lawfully present therein have the right to defend themselves by the most efficient means. Because they are greatly outnumbered, they will require a large capacity magazine to effectively defend themselves.

This, it is argued, was evident in the oriental quarters of Los Angeles during the Rodney King riots. For apparently political reasons, the police did not prevent the rioters from attempting to destroy oriental businesses and attempting to beat or kill their owners. However, these businessmen possessed assault rifles with which they were able to keep the rioters at bay and, as a consequence, suffered less loss of life and destruction of property than business owners in other parts of Los Angeles.

The counter argument is essentially this:

Assault rifles, because of their large magazine capacity, have the ability to kill a large number of innocent people. This makes them the weapon of choice for terrorists and the mentally deranged. Therefore, if such weapons were banned, there would be a sharp decline in the number of the mass killings that have become endemic in the United States.

Because of the Supreme Court’s decision on the right to bear arms, this is a close question that will eventually have to be decided by that court.

However, every reasonable person would agree that the provisions of the Brady Act and other laws restricting the possession of firearms should apply whether a gun is purchased at a gun show or at the shop of a licensed gun dealer.

Further, a so-called instant background check is not sufficient to make an intelligent determination of whether a particular person is qualified under law to possess a firearm. A three-day waiting period has been suggested, and this is more than reasonable.

Likewise, it is eminently reasonable to prohibit the sale of firearms to persons under the age of 21 years. Similarly, the Red Flag laws impose a clearly reasonable restriction on the possession of firearms.

The possibility that congress will actually enact such laws has been greatly enhanced with Donald Trump as president. He has said that, although he has received the support of the NRA in the recent election, he is not afraid to disagree with them where the good of the nation is concerned and has exhorted congress, Republicans and Democrats alike, not to be terrified of the NRA and to do what is best for the people.

Because the NRA knows that Trump will never agree to the emasculation of the Second Amendment, they will in all likelihood be more comfortable in agreeing with plainly reasonable limitations on the possession of firearms.

I think the NRA realize that the people are with Trump on this one and that they will likely be left out in the cold if they do not temper their position. However only time will tell.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Neri on March 5th, 2018, 6:12 pm 

Serpent,

Trump has supported Red Flag Laws which require a warrant to confiscate a weapon from a person who likely poses a threat to the safety of others.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on March 5th, 2018, 6:34 pm 

Neri » March 5th, 2018, 5:12 pm wrote:Serpent,

Trump has supported Red Flag Laws which require a warrant to confiscate a weapon from a person who likely poses a threat to the safety of others.

Has supported, or does support?
I didn't hear the entire comment, only an excerpt. Probable cause wasn't included.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Neri on March 5th, 2018, 9:20 pm 

Serpent,

It should be clear to any impartial listener that, taken in context, when trump spoke of “due process,” he was referring to an adversary proceeding involving the presence of the suspect and his lawyer; for it is such a proceeding that is typically drawn out over several days--not to mention months expended for the resolution of appeals.

Because it would not be determined if the suspect’s guns will be seized until such a procedure runs its course, the suspect in the interim would be free to use the guns to kill school children, for example.

On the other hand a Red Flag order would be obtained expeditiously before a magistrate or similar judicial official with no need for the presence of the suspect or his counsel.

This is the result that trump insists upon as a matter of public safety. The president knows that the police cannot willy-nilly go about seizing guns without judicial authority. Of course, he supports Red Frag Laws with full knowledge that a warrant is necessary. He is not that stupid. Those who think otherwise are likely the ones lacking intelligence.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on March 5th, 2018, 10:44 pm 

Neri » March 6th, 2018, 10:20 am wrote: Those who think otherwise are likely the ones lacking intelligence.

Again - please provide sources regarding "those who think otherwise."
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on March 5th, 2018, 10:46 pm 

Mossling » March 6th, 2018, 11:44 am wrote:
Neri » March 6th, 2018, 10:20 am wrote: Those who think otherwise are likely the ones lacking intelligence.

Again - please provide sources regarding "those who think otherwise."


We have already seen that your rigor regarding Socrates sexual behaviours has been lacking considerably, so please do not assume that your statements are being taken in good faith.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on March 5th, 2018, 11:42 pm 

Yup, he did mention the red flags. Not in the snippet that was widely disseminated, but earlier in the discussion. He's such an erratic speaker, it's difficult to follow what he's referring to in an excerpt, but you get a better idea if you slog though the transcript. If he still believes the same thing tomorrow and next week, something might even get done. (Though not without a fight.)
Second, we have to confront mental health. There’s never been a case that I’ve ever seen — I’m sure everybody would feel the same — where mental health was so obviously — 39 different red flags. I mean, everybody was seeing them. The local police, the state police, the FBI, everybody was seeing that this guy was sick and nothing happened.


https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-vice-president-pence-bipartisan-members-congress-meeting-school-community-safety/
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Neri on March 7th, 2018, 12:08 pm 

"The White House is considering the idea of using restraining orders to take firearms away from people considered dangerous as part of its response to last week’s massacre at a Florida high school, two people familiar with the matter said.

"Under extreme risk protection orders, which are also known as red flag laws or gun violence restraining orders, firearms can be confiscated from people found to be at risk.

"The White House is studying an Indiana version of the law, and is considering other measures as well, according to the people, who requested anonymity to discuss policy deliberations. Four other states also have such laws.

"At the White House on Thursday, Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi described to President Donald Trump similar efforts underway in her state to allow law enforcement to seize firearms from someone who is deemed to be a danger to themselves or others.

“'Good,' Trump responded.

"At a Florida town hall on CNN earlier in the week, Marco Rubio, one of Florida’s two senators, said he supported restraining orders.

"While the concept has bipartisan support, some gun-rights groups have embraced it because it does not impose new regulations on firearms themselves. It is one of a range of proposals, including mental health initiatives, that are under consideration by the White House.

"California, Connecticut, Indiana, Oregon and Washington have laws that allow the authorities to temporarily strip people believed to be a danger to themselves or others with their weapons. Anyone subject to such an order would not be allowed to buy or obtain more guns while the order was in effect.

"The Trump administration is looking at encouraging states to enact the legislation, possibly by tying grant money as a reward for those states to adopt the idea, one of the people said."

Time Magazine, February 24, 2018
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby BadgerJelly on March 7th, 2018, 1:59 pm 

"Fools and intelligent people are equally undamaging. Half-fools and half-sages, these are the most dangerous of all."

"The greatest people are always linked with their century through some weakness."

- Goethe


Through weakness the great fools and intellectuals will rise to set things straight. The danger comes when there is no "weakness" to overcome.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Watson on March 7th, 2018, 2:40 pm 

I thought the whole constitution, with the second amendment proclaiming an armed militia and guns for everyone, and division of power split between the congress and senate, was suppose to prevent the possibility of such a lunatic taking control long term.

Is this his deluded rambling, or is there something that could lead to this president for life? Looking at the strict interpretation of the 2nd amendment as strictly written, I'd say no.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on March 7th, 2018, 3:44 pm 

Watson » March 7th, 2018, 1:40 pm wrote:I thought the whole constitution, with the second amendment proclaiming an armed militia and guns for everyone, and division of power split between the congress and senate, was suppose to prevent the possibility of such a lunatic taking control long term.

The first ten amendments (bill of rights), apparently, were a compromise between state and federal powers.
Not guns for everybody - just the able-bodied white males who could be called up for military service.
The assumption in the 1780s was that the national government would not have a large standing army in time of peace and that the state militias would remain the backbone of the national defense. In time of war, a national army might be created for the duration of the war. The U.S. Constitution explicitly authorizes Congress "to provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions
https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-ink/2013/04/gun-rights-1780s-and-today

Is this his deluded rambling, or is there something that could lead to this president for life?

I don't see how. Now, the Federal government does maintain a large (!!) standing professional army, against which these rag-tag unorganized, undisciplined, spottily-trained survivalists, weekend pioneers, paranoiacs and assorted wingnuts would be utterly futile. In the quest for dictatorship, neither arming nor disarming the wingnut faction would make any difference.
If he were clever enough, he'd pit two or more sets of gun-toting Americans against one another, goad them into open confrontation, then declare martial law to quell the riots.
But first, he's have to ensure that the military establishment was loyal to him personally. Large-scale bribery notwithstanding, that's far from certain.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Neri on March 7th, 2018, 4:49 pm 

Serpent,

As I mentioned previously, the US Supreme Court held that the right to bear arms (subject to reasonable limitations) is a personal right guaranteed by the Second Amendment and does not depend on being a member of a state militia. Like it or not, this is the law of the land.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on March 7th, 2018, 5:00 pm 

Neri » March 7th, 2018, 3:49 pm wrote:Serpent,

As I mentioned previously, the US Supreme Court held that the right to bear arms (subject to reasonable limitations) is a personal right guaranteed by the Second Amendment and does not depend on being a member of a state militia. Like it or not, this is the law of the land.

So were a lot of things that are no longer so, or one SCOTUS overturned a previous one's ruling, or an amendment made a law obsolete. Things change, laws change.
It doesn't ultimately matter what the law-books say; it matter what the current governments accept and what the police and courts enforce.
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