Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

[Mossling]

When Fox news is covering the following:



With their concerns about Trump presenting the free press as "the enemy of the people", what does this say about Trump's overall intentions as POTUS?

[wolfhnd]

Executive Order—Arrest and Imprisonment of Irresponsible Newspaper Reporters and Editors
May 18, 1864



Major-General John A. Drx,

Commanding at New York:

Whereas there has been wickedly and traitorously printed and published this morning in the New York World and New York Journal of Commerce, newspapers printed and published in the city of New York, a false and spurious proclamation purporting to be signed by the President and to be countersigned by the Secretary of State, which publication is of a treasonable nature, designed to give aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States and to the rebels now at war against the Government and their aiders and abettors, you are therefore hereby commanded forthwith to arrest and imprison in any fort or military prison in your command the editors, proprietors, and publishers of the aforesaid newspapers, and all such persons as, after public notice has been given of the falsehood of said publication, print and publish the same with intent to give aid and comfort to the enemy; and you will hold the persons so arrested in close custody until they can be brought to trial before a military commission for their offense. You will also take possession by military force of the printing establishments of the New York World and Journal of Commerce, and hold the same until further orders, and prohibit any further publication therefrom.

A. LINCOLN

[weakmagneto]

IMO I think to understand where Trump is coming from in terms of calling out the media as "fake news" we have to follow some of the current conspiracy theories that people like "Alex Jones" preaches that Trump subscribes to. Jones alleges that the "Elite" (globalist bankers who rule the world i.e. the Rothschilds and Rockafellers) own all of the major media outlets and are trying to create a "New World Order" by controlling the banks, world governments and media.

[weakmagneto]

It astounds me that no reporters have made this connection about the media. When Trump talks about "draining the swamp", it sounds like to me he is referencing some of the propaganda that Jones spews about corruption in the government by NWO cronies. Jones has a large following of people who believe this. There are others that preach the same thing. Check out "New World Order" or see some of the things Alex Jones has said about the media and the NWO to get an understanding about some of the stuff Trump is saying and doing. Trump has also appeared on Alex Jones' Info Wars shows.
Donald Trump Kept His Promise to Alex Jones Show Interview
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=al ... ORM=VRDGAR

[zetreque]

I actually find myself watching fox news more often now just to see what all the hubub is about.
Trump is out of control.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that TRUMP IS GETTING HIS INTEL FROM THE PRESS!!!! He is a nutcase.
viewtopic.php?f=129&t=32501

How many people are employed in the news industry anyway? What a stereotyping asshole to generalize on the press being the enemy of the American people. The press is part of the American people and democracy. They live with the rest of us. You might as well single out every lawyer, every real estate agent, every car salesman in the same bigoted attitude. As much as I disagree with republicans, I'd take just about any republican president over Trump right now. I might actually be able to sleep at night again if George Bush Jr, Sr, or Bill Clinton was in office again.

Trump is draining the swamp and filling it with toxins.

[zetreque]

IMO I think to understand where Trump is coming from in terms of calling out the media as "fake news" we have to follow some of the current conspiracy theories that people like "Alex Jones" preaches that Trump subscribes to. Jones alleges that the "Elite" (globalist bankers who rule the world i.e. the Rothschilds and Rockafellers) own all of the major media outlets and are trying to create a "New World Order" by controlling the banks, world governments and media.

I think it would take a solid team of professional psychologists to figure out what his deal is. It's confusing as hell. He has a specific close minded mindset and will not see anything outside of his bubble.

[zetreque]

If only we could condemn the lies in capitalism the same way Trump is about the press. I am sick of commercial after commercial coming out of corporations full of lies and misleading statistics. The corporate monopoly world Trump comes from IMO is far worse than the press.

I wonder how long it will take Trump to realize that campaigning speeches are far different from presidential speeches. Campaigning speeches you are lucky if anyone outside of that town or state hears about it and can get away with vague false statements a lot easier. Presidential speeches on the other hand the world is watching. Global stock markets move, world leaders form policies and decisions, and the real bad guy groups plan attacks. Just keep mouthing off every little thought that crosses your mind Trump and send us to war you imbecile.

[Forest_Dump]

Yeah but this Alex Jones dude is a real off the wall conspiracy theory nut job. Another one of his (Jones) was that the Sandy Hook shooting was also a fake with actors.

[weakmagneto]

What the sad part is in this whole situation is that the POTUS reflects the values of you, the Americans, to the rest of the world... When I think of your national symbol of freedom, the Statue of Liberty, it's pretty much just a tourist attraction now. Does it really mean anything anymore? Imagine all of the immigrants from the past who looked upon that statue as a relief from oppression, poverty or from whatever they were escaping from OR a dream of a better life in America. What would they think now of their America?

I can only imagine what executive orders Trump will have next week, but I think the reputation that the US had as a world leader in freedom, democracy and equality has been severely damaged. But DOES America care anymore? This is just my view of my next door neighbour. You were never really perfect, but now I really feel sorry for you and those you are hurting. We just booted out a similar right wing arse who did some of the same things your POTUS has done or is proposing to do... All I can do is wish you the best America!

[Mossling]

Executive Order—Arrest and Imprisonment of Irresponsible Newspaper Reporters and Editors
May 18, 1864

Major-General John A. Drx,

Commanding at New York:

Whereas there has been wickedly and traitorously printed and published this morning in the New York World and New York Journal of Commerce, newspapers printed and published in the city of New York, a false and spurious proclamation purporting to be signed by the President and to be countersigned by the Secretary of State, which publication is of a treasonable nature, designed to give aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States and to the rebels now at war against the Government and their aiders and abettors, you are therefore hereby commanded forthwith to arrest and imprison in any fort or military prison in your command the editors, proprietors, and publishers of the aforesaid newspapers, and all such persons as, after public notice has been given of the falsehood of said publication, print and publish the same with intent to give aid and comfort to the enemy; and you will hold the persons so arrested in close custody until they can be brought to trial before a military commission for their offense. You will also take possession by military force of the printing establishments of the New York World and Journal of Commerce, and hold the same until further orders, and prohibit any further publication therefrom.

A. LINCOLN

Are you comparing the civil condition of North America in 1864 to now?

By mid-May 1864, Lincoln’s patience with the oppositional Copperhead press had begun to fray. What triggered Lincoln’s wrath was a bogus item that appeared in two Copperhead newspapers out of New York — the Journal of Commerce and the World. The papers ran a fake story that reported a presidential proclamation to the effect that the Lincoln administration was about to draft 400,000 men. According to Tedford and Herbeck, “Lincoln ordered the two newspapers closed and their owners arrested and imprisoned. The Independent Telegraph System, which had transmitted the story, was seized by the military and its transmissions stopped.”

Additionally, and as my colleague David L. Hudson Jr. has noted: Sometimes “people were arrested for wearing Confederate buttons and for singing Confederate songs. Editors were arrested, papers closed and correspondents were banned from the fields of battle. A military governor, with the approval of Secretary of War Edwin Stanton, destroyed the office of the Washington, D.C., newspaper, the Sunday Chronicle.”

Lincoln’s governing principle — that a nation must be able to protect itself in wartime against expression that causes insubordination or actually obstructs the raising of armies — was “absolutely opposed,” said Chafee, to the continuation of such practices once “the emergency had passed.” However problematic the actions of the president and his subordinates, at least Lincoln had the good sense to cease censorship once the underlying danger had abated. Source

Trump is doing something very different from Lincol, it seems.

As these guys discuss - where does this kind of rhetoric stop?

Those in the press who say anything, or think differently from Trump are suddenly "fake news" and thus "the enemy of the people". How about any other group of people who say or think differently after the press are attacked by Trump extremists? How about the Democrats, or what about the 'intellectual elite' who think that they are so 'clever'? Remind anyone of any other events in history?

[Paul Anthony]

What the sad part is in this whole situation is that the POTUS reflects the values of you, the Americans, to the rest of the world... When I think of your national symbol of freedom, the Statue of Liberty, it's pretty much just a tourist attraction now. Does it really mean anything anymore? Imagine all of the immigrants from the past who looked upon that statue as a relief from oppression, poverty or from whatever they were escaping from OR a dream of a better life in America. What would they think now of their America?

You have overlooked one salient point. Those immigrants from the past entered the country legally. (My grandparents were among them). Many still do. Until you can recognize the difference between legal immigration and illegal immigration you just might continue to make similar false generalizations.

[Forest_Dump]

weakmagneto » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:52 pm wrote:
What the sad part is in this whole situation is that the POTUS reflects the values of you, the Americans, to the rest of the world... When I think of your national symbol of freedom, the Statue of Liberty, it's pretty much just a tourist attraction now. Does it really mean anything anymore? Imagine all of the immigrants from the past who looked upon that statue as a relief from oppression, poverty or from whatever they were escaping from OR a dream of a better life in America. What would they think now of their America?

You have overlooked one salient point. Those immigrants from the past entered the country legally. (My grandparents were among them). Many still do. Until you can recognize the difference between legal immigration and illegal immigration you just might continue to make similar false generalizations.

Well cinsidering she is status First Nations, she probably doesn't see much of a difference. They have been plagued by illegal immigrants bringing over their foreign languages, religions and Sharia equivalent legal systems for over 500 years (and of course, having the legal goal posts moved whenever it suited the immigrants).

But of course, we are not really talking about immigrants but rather refugees fleeing war and genocides.

[Paul Anthony]

Well cinsidering she is status First Nations, she probably doesn't see much of a difference. They have been plagued by illegal immigrants bringing over their foreign languages, religions and Sharia equivalent legal systems for over 500 years (and of course, having the legal goal posts moved whenever it suited the immigrants).

But of course, we are not really talking about immigrants but rather refugees fleeing war and genocides.

That is a fair distinction.

There has never been a time in US history that all asylum seekers have been accepted. There have always been quotas and qualifications. I think it's fair to say half the world's population lives in conditions less favorable than the average American. Is it practical to allow all of them to come here?

But the topic is about Trump and the alleged emerging dictatorship. That seems a bit of an exaggeration, although one frequently repeated by hyperventilating liberals who still can't believe their candidate lost the election. What has he done that a dictator could be expected to do?

* He has not abolished the court system. Quite the contrary, he has nominated someone for the Supreme Court. The fact that he named a conservative to that position may seem, in the eyes of a liberal, to be the same as abolishing the court. It's not the same.

* He has not declared martial law, despite the effort of some to suggest that he was activating the National Guard. He didn't.

* Yes, he has issued several executive orders. So did Obama, several of which are still awaiting approval by the courts that blocked them. Was Obama a dictator?

Let's take a breath. You should all save your panic for something that actually warrants it.

[Mossling]

But the topic is about Trump and the alleged emerging dictatorship. That seems a bit of an exaggeration, although one frequently repeated by hyperventilating liberals who still can't believe their candidate lost the election. What has he done that a dictator could be expected to do?

Are Fox news now included with these "liberals" that you are speaking of?

Is the statue of liberty a "liberal", by the way? ;P

And please note the question mark at the end of the topic title.

You should perhaps save your panic for something that actually warrants it.

[Paul Anthony]

But the topic is about Trump and the alleged emerging dictatorship. That seems a bit of an exaggeration, although one frequently repeated by hyperventilating liberals who still can't believe their candidate lost the election. What has he done that a dictator could be expected to do?

Are Fox news now included with these "liberals" that you are speaking of?

Is the statue of liberty a "liberal", by the way? ;P

And please note the question mark at the end of the topic title.

You should perhaps save your panic for something that actually warrants it.

Trump is amazing. He has managed to make enemies of both political parties.

Actually, what he has done is angered and frightened the establishment on both sides of the aisle. He is being attacked by everyone who benefits from maintaining the status quo. That's not a very smart way to manage a government, but that's what he was elected to do. It remains to be seen how long he can get away with it.

And the Statue of Liberty was a gift from France, so, yes, it is a liberal. :)

[Mossling]

Trump is amazing. He has managed to make enemies of both political parties.

Actually, what he has done is angered and frightened the establishment on both sides of the aisle. He is being attacked by everyone who benefits from maintaining the status quo. That's not a very smart way to manage a government, but that's what he was elected to do. It remains to be seen how long he can get away with it.

The status quo you speak of could potentially be based around a technologically-driven trajectory that has been bringing in more and more factory automation, for example. Whether humans like it or not, just like there will be the potential to 3D print a gun within a household within a few minutes, there will be very few essential jobs in the future. We've discussed this impending situation before on my thread: Moneyless Society: Resource-based Economy.

Thus, the biggest future concerns appear to be - as the article you recently linked to on the post-truth thread suggested - what to do about the jobless:

A slight shift in focus, from lies told by the media to lies told by the government.

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/our-miserable-21st-century/

There is nothing partisan in this article. The author doesn't point fingers at either Party (refreshing for a change)...

And of course what to do about weapon-toting extremists - let us not forget the Trump-adoring and Marine Le Pen fan who killed a bunch of Muslims who were praying at the mosque in Canada in recent weeks.

The answer to both of these issues appears to be a global humanistic philosophy - of recognising truth as primarily economic (maintained sustenance governing life or death), and then looking to how certain habits of behaviour either favour one's personal economics or not (Robert Axelrod: The Evolution of Cooperation, Richard Dawkins: The Selfish gene, for example).

As an economic consumer, one is defined by one's key 'personhood'. What defines a person as either dead or alive is 'brain-deadness' - the functional existence of a nervous system, and thus a person exists primarily as a nervous system. No matter skin colour, creed, ethnicity, and so on, any human, beyond significant genetic neurological differences, has the potential to live a virtuous and socially harmonious life.

Trump does not appear to be living in the above described emprical reality, however - he seems to think making jobs at the expense of automation is part of a happy future, and that some creeds have no place in America. This could likely be because it suits him 'staying above and beyond' his "people" - his supporters. His regal 'palace' is his pride and joy, and the cherry on top of the cake could be a workforce of adoring 'serfs'. This is one potential scenario underlying why he does not fit the status quo - because the general trend has been, up until now, away from an unquestionable monarchy and a completely human intelligent industrial workforce, and towards social equality in all domains and automation - which all actually just so happens to be in line with optimum social economics (see Axelrod: efficiency and 'nice' behaviours).

The ultimate problem of what to do with undereducated jobless 'layabouts' seems to be a philosophical one. If they are emotionally impoverished then they need effective therapy, and if they are unmotivated beyond deciding to take opiates, then society needs to come up with and advertise more attractive solutions - that's if anyone cares about them. At the end of the day, however, they do have political voices, and so they demand recognition. Their problems - Trumps' "people" - need to be heard and their problems addressed, before they make Trump the 'Robber King of the Losers' - a kind of Robin Hood character who robs from anyone who is against Trumpists and gives to the impoverished.

Well, actually, they may well have already done that. ;)

[Mossling]

Go to 6:40 on this video and watch Sean Spicer say that banning the press no matter whether liberal, conservative, and so on, would change a democracy to become a dictatorship.

Now that they are banning the more liberal press from press 'gaggles', is this confirmation of an emerging dictatorship?:



The BBC is "fake news", really?

[Mossling]

Lol, I literally cannot get through the whole of this footage of Trump's cabinet meeting, it's just so so so awkward, and is completely something one imagines takes place in places like N. Korea, but in the USA?! Really?! It's like this was scripted by the creators of Southpark or something - so surreal for a modern, developed, democratic western country...

[jocular]

Where Kim_Jong-un in that get together ? Sign him up to that band of dishonorables and it is surely Peace in our Time

Pax Trumpista

[Serpent]

Never again would Rome benefit from rulers who had the foresight to understand the stability provided by selective succession and rather allowed personal and dynastic ambitions to play its role in the empire's eventual collapse.

http://www.unrv.com/decline-of-empire/decline-of-empire.php

Well, but it took another three centuries to actually fall. Given how technology speeds everything up, make that 30 years.

[zetreque]

Lol, I literally cannot get through the whole of this footage of Trump's cabinet meeting, it's just so so so awkward, and is completely something one imagines takes place in places like N. Korea, but in the USA?! Really?! It's like this was scripted by the creators of Southpark or something - so surreal for a modern, developed, democratic western country...

I'm really starting to feel like I am living in a third world country. I can't even enjoy going to the movies anymore. I tried going today and the theater changed. They changed out all the seating for less seats that are fancy new chairs where they charge more money and it's reserved seating. It's like going to the movies is for the wealthy now too.

[Mossling]

And now rumours that Trump wants to fire Mueller for leading the FBI Russia investigation after Comey. Haha.

[Mossling]

Absolutely unprecedented...

[BadgerJelly]

Simple question ...

Does, and has, the US government bend to meet the will of the people, or does/has the US government tried to bend the will of the people to accept its power and authority.

EMERGING DICTATORSHIP?

I would class a form of government as being more of a dictatorship if its authority could not be easily challenged. Of course those in power would argue that if it was easy to challenge then it would be an unstable government.

The Trump government is perhaps a little more tilted towards more of an open dictatorship façade, but in truth it bears little difference to the previous administration.

Define dictatorship PLEASE!

I think we perhaps need to apply a precise definition here. All governments act in some degree as a "dictatorship". If the dictator is a "good" person we say nothing and praise the system. If a bad person comes along we blame the person not the system in place? What has changed?

I think it is bad if a government is trying to quash free speech. All governments do this to some degree directly or otherwise. Shouldn't we have a clearer line between influencing the extent of free speech and actively employing laws to stop it?

I don't have answers only questions and general annoyance at authorities at large.

[Mossling]

I think it is bad if a government is trying to quash free speech. All governments do this to some degree directly or otherwise. Shouldn't we have a clearer line between influencing the extent of free speech and actively employing laws to stop it?

I don't think firing the guy investigating one's suspicious campaign ties to a nation that interfered with the democratic election that one won is an attack on freedom of speech. That free press topic is now apparently a side issue. For there seems to be active obstruction of justice afoot - coming from the POTUS himself - and a narrative is being asserted that suggests the POTUS is beyond such a crime - beyond the law; untouchable.

I don't believe this has a historical equivalent in the United States that has not resulted in the POTUS resigning...?

Does the parallel with a standard dictatorship really need to be spelled out here Badger?

[BadgerJelly]

For there seems to be active obstruction of justice afoot - coming from the POTUS himself - and a narrative is being asserted that suggests the POTUS is beyond such a crime - beyond the law; untouchable.

Of course he is above the law! All presidents are unless they don't have the backing of the other institutions in place.

Russia has sweet f'all to do with this. It is just a convenient piece of propaganda, a convenient "bogeyman" for the American people to boo and jeer at.

My point was The US is practically a dictatorship already. Just because a nation has opposition to it it doesn't make it a real democracy. If said nation has a long, long history of interfering (sometimes openly) in foreign governing bodies then I am not willing to listen to their whining about others doing the same to them (on a MUCH MUCH smaller scale!)

[jocular]

For there seems to be active obstruction of justice afoot - coming from the POTUS himself - and a narrative is being asserted that suggests the POTUS is beyond such a crime - beyond the law; untouchable.

Of course he is above the law! All presidents are unless they don't have the backing of the other institutions in place.

Russia has sweet f'all to do with this. It is just a convenient piece of propaganda, a convenient "bogeyman" for the American people to boo and jeer at.

My point was The US is practically a dictatorship already. Just because a nation has opposition to it it doesn't make it a real democracy. If said nation has a long, long history of interfering (sometimes openly) in foreign governing bodies then I am not willing to listen to their whining about others doing the same to them (on a MUCH MUCH smaller scale!)

I think the discussion has moved on to obstruction of justice (not that the Russian side of things does not have its own separate validity).

It really is so obvious. If you are willing to be an apologist for the POTUS or his cronies manipulating the Justice system then congrats you have won the jackpot.

You probably (a guess) feel comforted by the fact that a large minority of the US population will listen to the likes of Newt "l'etat c'est lui"Gingrich .

[BadgerJelly]

I think people who say others are "apologists" are not the kind of people I am going to be apologetic, nor sympathetic, toward.

[Mossling]

Another hallmark of a dictatorship....

[Braininvat]

I tried to fix the link, Moss, but I think the problem is with youtube's server. Can you find another version of it?