Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

[charon]

I haven't I didn't no responsibility not me I am the greatest success billions terrific NEXT

[edy420]

I'm interested in this topic, but being a New Zealander, I only know the propaganda. (The vid in the OP is not working)

However, I think Trump made the right decision with Covid. In NZ, we went into a full lockdown. Completely obliterating its infection.. until we got it again. Now we are in another lockdown. Seems like the countries that just stuck it out, are now overcoming it naturally, where we have only made it worse. When I first seen the BLM protests, I expected Covid to wipe out the entire USA... turns out I was lied to, its not really that bad. And yet, here we are, having to put up with our Governments threat to ruin our already fragile economy, for the sake of principle. She doesn't want to admit she was wrong, probably because that would prove Trump right.

While our economy and employment is crippled, somehow Trump has created jobs, even through a world crisis. The more I learn about him, the more I respect his competence. Its hard to get an un-bias description, as even journalists report with a clear political agenda governing their information. One news reports that Orange man = bad, while another talks about the good things hes done. As an outsider looking in, it looks like the cities who are against Trump have trashed themselves, literally. The main streets look like war zones you'd only see in the middle East. IMO that kind of Anarchist tyranny needs a dictator, but instead Trump has been patient and told the Mayors that they need to ask for his help, as he's not going to just march in on them. (Like a dictator)

I wasn't going to post, but I can't help but think that most of this thread is propaganda and a misrepresentation of the real Trump. So just out of curiosity, as a starting point for me could anyone list the top 5 things that portray Trump as a racist, bigot, dictator, of the most free country in the world?

[charon]

https://theintercept.com/2019/12/19/a-z ... peachment/

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/the ... ties-1-842

You've got some catching up to do, edy :-)

But, to be fair...

https://www.houstonpress.com/news/5-obj ... e-11286106

[edy420]

https://theintercept.com/2019/12/19/a-z-trump-impeachment/

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/the ... ties-1-842

You've got some catching up to do, edy :-)

This is a president who has referred to African countries as “shitholes;” to Mexicans as “rapists;” to neo-Nazis as “very fine people.” To be clear: bigotry, racism, and white nationalism are impeachable offenses. Ask Andrew Johnson.

I remember this debate about "very fine people". From memory, he was saying that there are very fine people on both sides. Which is not the same as saying neo-Nazis are fine people. Just one example of bias reporting.

Mueller said in his report that he could not conclusively determine that Trump had committed a crime or that he hadn’t.......
....The Mueller report may have ruled out a criminal conspiracy between Trump and Vladimir Putin

Errr, I'm a bit lost TBH.. Their proof is that.. they have no proof, but because they looked and were told to stop looking, he is therefore guilty of conspiring with Russia... when the report ruled that out. OK.

In October 2018, a blockbuster 13,000-word investigation by the New York Times found that Trump “received at least $413 million in today’s dollars from his father’s real estate empire, much of it through tax dodges in the 1990s.” What kind of dodges? “He and his siblings set up a sham corporation to disguise millions of dollars in gifts from their parents. … Records indicate that Mr. Trump helped his father take improper tax deductions worth millions more.”

In my country, we have Government departments who aren't the New York Times, that investigate tax fraud. Im not privy to Trumps Tax information but I suspect a similar tax department in America would be. If these allegations were true, wouldn't they be identified before he became President? How deep down the rabbit hole do I need to go. Perhaps the reptilian Illuminati are covering for him?

Pre Presidential role, I remember Trump being a revered American personality. An icon of the American Ideology. I thought it was ridiculous that a TV personality could even run for President. Voting looked like it was just a popularity contest. But if he was elected because of his principles and ability to improve the economy, then isn't he doing what he was voted to do?

You’ve heard of QAnon, right? The batshit crazy group of online conspiracy theorists obsessed with a deep-state plot against Trump?

Conspiracy.. interesting they'd mention that.

Is there anything your willing to address personally? One of the reasons I asked for a top 5, was to try and exclude myself from an apparent echo chamber, and spark some productive discussion. Why do you consider Trump a Dictator?

[Serpent]

While our economy and employment is crippled, somehow Trump has created jobs,

You mean, outside of the white house? Show me three.

The more I learn about him, the more I respect his competence.

O.M.G.

One news reports that Orange man = bad, while another talks about the good things hes done.

Let's just see that second list; it'll be shorter.

So just out of curiosity, as a starting point for me could anyone list the top 5 things that portray Trump as a racist, bigot, dictator, of the most free country in the world?

Too difficult to sort out each of those, they're all so entangled in every one of his rambling, semicoherent speeches, but here something you might understand why the rest of us consider ominous:






[url][/url]

[davidm]

I'm interested in this topic, but being a New Zealander, I only know the propaganda. (The vid in the OP is not working)

Oh? Whose propaganda would that be?

However, I think Trump made the right decision with Covid.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Right decision? He completely ignored the urgent advice of his medical experts back in January and February to take prophylactic measures to deter the arrival and spread of the virus here in the U.S. and as a direct result of his evil incompetence, our national death toll is approaching 200,000 and our economy is in utter shambles.

In NZ, we went into a full lockdown. Completely obliterating its infection.. until we got it again.

And what does that prove? You had 100 consecutive days without a new reported infection — something the U.S. can not even dream of. The fact that the virus may be making a comeback in New Zealand is testament only to its tenaciousness, NOT to a failure on the part of New Zealand’s government, which did exactly the right things, the things that our evil idiot of a president refused to do.


Total reported cases in New Zealand of Covid since the pandemic began: 1,034. Total deaths since the pandemic began: 22

Total reported cases in the U.S. of Covid since the pandemic began: 5,700,000. Total deaths since the pandemic began: 177,000.

Of course the U.S. has a larger population than New Zealand, but the per capita cases and deaths are still far higher. New Zealand did it right. The U.S., under the administration of this goddamned evil orangutan, this Cheeto Benito, has gotten EVERYTHING wrong on the virus.

Seems like the countries that just stuck it out, are now overcoming it naturally, where we have only made it worse.

Bullshit! First, NO nations just, as you put it, “stuck it out.” EVERY nation has attempted to keep people socially distanced, indoors, masked, locked down, whatever, to varying degrees. The ones like New Zealand who had the strictest lockdowns have had the greatest success. The ones that failed to do so have had the worst outcomes.

Moreover, it is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about when you speak of “overcoming it naturally.” Overcoming it naturally means developing herd immunity. NO nation currently has such immunity, which, without a vaccine, would require that some 70 percent of the population be sickened with Covid accompanied by vast numbers of deaths. You are just clueless!

When I first seen the BLM protests, I expected Covid to wipe out the entire USA...

Which proves you know nothing about pandemics.

... turns out I was lied to, its not really that bad.

HA HA HA HA! Corona virus cases worldwide: 23,647,045. Deaths: 813,570.

Yeah, you were just lied to, LOL. But I suppose you think most of the dead went up to meet Jesus. I hope they didn’t shake his hand too hard — he has a hole in it, after all.

While our economy and employment is crippled, somehow Trump has created jobs, even through a world crisis.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

Are you just pulling this out of your ass, or does Rupert Murdoch own all the media outlets in New Zealand to feed you an endless stream of hot steaming bullshit? In April, the U.S. unemployment rate his 32 percent, the highest in American history, even higher than the 25 percent at the depths of the Great Depression in 1932. Since tentative reopening, the jobless rate has fallen somewhat, but it is now estimated that fully half the jobs that were supposed to be temporarily lost when the pandemic began are gone for good. Our nation’s economy is in utter ruins. Even before Covid, the job creation rate under Trump’s administration was LOWER THAN the job creation rate under Obama. Trump is an evil man who has destroyed every thing he has touched.

The more I learn about him, the more I respect his competence.

HA HA HA HA! His own family thinks he’s an utter, incompetent buffoon.

Its hard to get an un-bias description, as even journalists report with a clear political agenda governing their information. One news reports that Orange man = bad, while another talks about the good things hes done. As an outsider looking in, it looks like the cities who are against Trump have trashed themselves, literally.

That is a complete lie. In fact the cities are in much better shape than Trump country, in the Deep South of the Old Confederacy. Here in New York City, the pandemic is largely under control, because of the strict lockdown measures we practiced as did New Zealand. Down south, it’s running riot because the hillbillies refuse to wear masks or socially distance. Go figure.

The main streets look like war zones you'd only see in the middle East.

HA HA HA HA. No. I watched and even participated in some of the George Floyd protests here in NYC —and I know that is what your racist comment is referring to. NYC is not a war zone. The protests were 99.999 percent peaceful. But hey, go ahead and buy into Rupert Trump’s propaganda.

IMO that kind of Anarchist tyranny needs a dictator, but instead Trump has been patient and told the Mayors that they need to ask for his help, as he's not going to just march in on them. (Like a dictator)

Your ill-informed opinions are as worthless as Donald Trump.

[Serpent]

Soooo, David, not a staunch Trump supporter?

[TheVat]

Unfortunately, this (recent posts) is what happens when entertainment companies try to present themselves as straight news media.

I'm not sure, outside of being in a coma for the past five years, how anyone who is reading fact-checked news could see Trump as anything but a malignant narcissist and pathological liar with a decades long history of corruption, fairly overt racism, Islamophobia, sexual exploitation, misogyny, and outright cruelty. His tax breaks have gone mainly to billionaires. His deregulation of polluting industries and energy sources has undone decades of progress, and set back alternate energy transition when we most need it. Good god, I'm not going to do the intellectual water-hauling for someone who hasn't bothered to follow the news. News, as in checking facts and holding public leaders accountable for lies and misrepresentations.

The suggestion of "competence" from Trump is absurd. People in his own party have exhausted themselves trying to clean up his messes and spin his least harmful acts as somehow competent.

[charon]

I'm interested in this topic, but being a New Zealander, I only know the propaganda.

In that case, Edy, you shouldn't be watching propaganda, especially if you know it's propaganda. There are enough major news channels and newspapers online to get a real picture of the situation.

Unless, of course, you're suggesting that all these organs - CNN, the BBC, The Washington Post, the New York Times, etc, etc - are involved in some kind of global conspiracy. It's not just now an election is looming, this has been going on since Trump first entered power, starting with the size of his inauguration crowd.

But there are all the New Zealand TV channels and papers as well. They're all saying the same thing. I've looked at them, from Sky to the New Zealand Herald and the Dominion Post. There's also Radio New Zealand if you prefer listening. What do you watch or read?

Try this:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/424000 ... f-covid-19

I think it's time to wise up, Edy. We're not on the Enterprise now :-)

[Serpent]

By their fruits shalt thou know them.
Bypass news outlets and opinion entirely: just look at the results.

[edy420]

Come on guys, literally no talking points on why Trump is an emerging Dictator?

Ok, trying to understand your guys arguments here but...

Trump Is A Dictator Because:
1. People can make a montage of his speech taken out of context.
2. Suggesting Trump is competent, is just absurd.
3. He made the wrong decision on Covid
4. Something very funny
5. The only news media I should be mindlessly gobbling up, are listed above.
(I skim read, but feel free to correct me, either add to, or replace the points I missed)

Not just the worst talking points on this topic, but of this entire philosophy website. I expected more. Of all these, the only topic worth discussing even remotely related to Trumps Dictatorship is his decisions made with the Covid situation.

In New Zealand, the majority of those deaths were in a rest home. My wife used to work in a rest home prior to the outbreak, and she came home nearly every day telling me about someone who passed away. Rest homes are where people go to die. Now that Covid Breaks out... people are talking about how people in rest homes die every day. The numbers are inflated to the point where I have to wonder if someone dies in a car crash, are they included in the statistics because they had mild Covid?

Full lockdown failed every where, even in the one country where it was successful. Our many days of being Covid free, has only delayed the inevitable. Can one argue that it was the right decision, even if the outcome is worse?

If I am to agree that Trump made the wrong decision, then I'd need proof that there is a right decision that can be made. Im only assuming your guys position, but Im guessing that the entire world should have shutdown, until the complete eradication of Covid? Absurd, the world economy would collapse, and even more people would die than the Covid outbreak. Or maybe the USA should have shutdown like NZ, and then closed the boarders indefinitely?

Either way right or wrong, he made a decision. That might be what dictators do, but its also what elected officials do too.

Trump is a very controversial figure. I highly doubt hes squeeky clean. The fact that he lets his mouth flap more than he should, is a weakness of his. But there has to be a reason why half the country voted for him (maybe half of USA is crazy?) I remember watching some conspiracy theories on Obama. Hes a clone and his wife is actually a dude. Any president will have a group of crazy people making up BS about the president, but usually people have the ability to discern fact from fiction.

Based on the supported evidence in this thread (none), I have to assume that most of the talking points about Trump is just that. Talking points lacking evidence. A bunch of allegations and montages, are not evidence of a dictatorship. Just because you all agree with each other is not evidence either, it only solidifies my theory that this is an echo chamber. Unless someone can make a list of 3 legitimate reasons with supporting evidence, I think I should just avoid this topic. I just don't have the time to engage in make believe.

[TheVat]

If you've indeed read this whole thread, then you will notice Mossling posted specific examples of autocratic behavior and intent from Trump and his cohort. The simplest answer is to study those examples (and from a couple other posters) and see if you can understand the disregard for the rule of law, and the United States Constitution. If you are not familiar with our founding document, you need to be if you wish to make pertinent on-topic posts here.

You can't skim political theory discussions and really keep up, or simply dismiss fact-based material as talking points.

Just this morning, Mike Pompeo the secretary of state agreed to promote Trump at the RNC. This is a violation of the Hatch Act. No, I'm not here to teach you US law. Figure it out. If you don't care to learn how the Hatch act has been violated here, or how, in the last ten pages, other legal violations have been properly pinpointed, or how our constitutional separation of powers has been violated, then yes, you are quite free to not participate and no hard feelings.

The most obvious example of the dictatorial grabbing of power has recently been seen with Trump trying to allocate federal money which was already allocated by Congress for disaster relief and emergency management. This is a clearcut Constitutional violation. No talking point. And maybe it lacks the dramatic quality some actions have. (for example, dismantling parts of our postal system by a postmaster who is, in fact, a Trump megadonor...)

[TheVat]

And using federal troops on domestic soil to attack civilians, as in Portland and a couple other US cities. Yet another violation of the Constitution and body of law, and which has, throughout recent history around the world, strongly correlated with the rise of autocracy.

Our reputable media have pointed these developments out, but there has been a rise of propaganda outfits like NewsCorp which openly support Trump, thus violating the most fundamental professional code of journalism as well as the mandate of the First Amendment to have a free press which is independent of government influence.

[Serpent]

Not to mention, under the tedious topic of Covid carnage,
https://couriernewsroom.com/2020/04/14/obama-prepared-for-a-potential-pandemic-trump-gutted-his-work/
But, again, it's just news reporting. You can always choose to believe what sound better to you.

Anybody who really cared to know the truth about any public figure would listen to his unedited speeches, interviews and news conferences. Yes, in the case of Trump, it's a hellishly hard slog, but some of us have done it, in order to formulate and informed opinion.

[TheVat]

Aw hell, Edy, just watch Attorney General William Barr, what he does and says, while bearing in mind that THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE IS CREATED AS A COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT WHICH DOES NOT SERVE THE PRESIDENT OR OTHER CABINET MEMBERS.

I'm going to take a wild guess that New Zealand constitutional system is not all that different from ours and something will click, if you really pay attention to how Barr serves, and excuses, the President.

And again, go through Mossling's various documented examples, all through this thread, and learn from them. Our USA members here have generally done a pretty good job of putting up relevant information.

And it's a lot scarier on this side of the ocean. Peaceful protestors gassed in Lafayette Park so that Trump could do a photo op in front of a famous church. Their presence was entirely legal.
A woman savagely beaten by police for bringing milk to tear-gassed protestors (it's used topically to stop the burning and blindness), as were journalists just doing their job. Federal border patrol officers moved to Oregon, no training in urban crowd control, no lawful jurisdiction in cities, some snatching people off the streets in unmarked vehicles (hello, Gestapo). Et cetera.

[charon]

Or, of course, this is exactly what Edy wants...

[Serpent]

I'm going to take a wild guess that New Zealand constitutional system is not all that different from ours

It is, rather. Parliamentary monarchy, and still very young.
But you don't need recourse to the constitution (if anyone cares https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

)
to notice egregious action and grotesque reaction from a head of state.

[kidjan]

I remember this debate about "very fine people". From memory, he was saying that there are very fine people on both sides. Which is not the same as saying neo-Nazis are fine people. Just one example of bias reporting.

This isn't an example of "bias reporting."

When pressed about who these "very fine people" were, Trump essentially said: people lawfully protesting the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee and the renaming of a park designated in Lee's honor. Lee was the main general of the Confederate army during the civil war.

Which is to say: the "very fine people" were supporters of a statue of a man who betrayed the United States, fought for the preservation of human bondage, was a particularly brutal slave owner, and stubbornly impeded the reconstruction era following the civil war. A statue of this man in a public place--erected using public dollars--is an insult to this nation's principles.

It's an indefensible position; Lee is a traitorous white supremacist in the most literal sense of the phrase. People protesting the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee are not "very fine people." They're people who are historically misinformed at best. I won't speculate what they may be at their worst; I'll lean towards Lincoln's "better angels of our nature."

Errr, I'm a bit lost TBH.. Their proof is that.. they have no proof, but because they looked and were told to stop looking, he is therefore guilty of conspiring with Russia... when the report ruled that out. OK.

Mueller's report absolutely did not "rule that out."

The first portion of Mueller's report concludes that the investigation did not find sufficient evidence that the campaign "coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities." That is to say: it did not find sufficient evidence to condemn or exonerate the president of wrongdoing. Mueller was clear if he found evidence the campaign had not "coordinated or conspired," he would have exonerated the president.

In essence, he couldn't prove coordination, but he also couldn't exonerate the president.

However, the second portion of the report outlines clear obstruction of justice by the Trump administration/campaign, which means: it isn't possible for the first section to be authoritative. Mueller cannot have a full accounting of the facts if his investigation was obstructed. Obstruction of justice is a crime; Trump was saved only by the unwillingness of Republicans in the senate to pursue impeachment.

If these allegations were true, wouldn't they be identified before he became President?

U.S. presidential candidates are not required to supply financial records. It's customary for them to do so (I believe Richard Nixon was the last presidential candidate elected who did not), but there is no requirement.

I remember Trump being a revered American personality. An icon of the American Ideology. I thought it was ridiculous that a TV personality could even run for President.

So was Ronald Reagan.

[kidjan]

How about a military coup. That'd sort it out :-)

I have to be honest: even statements in jest about this leave me with a pit in my stomach. This country forgets the worst war we ever fought was against each other. There are no winners in civil war, and so when I see language like this out of this year's Republican convention:

Don’t let the Democrats take you for granted. Don’t let them step on you. Don’t let them destroy your families, your lives and your future. Don’t let them kill future generations because they told you and brainwashed you and fed you lies that you weren’t good enough.

...

Joe Biden and the socialist left would be a disaster for our economy. But President Trump is leading a new era of opportunity.

...

These are the policies that are coming to a neighborhood near you. So make no mistake: No matter where you live, your family will not be safe in the radical Democrats’ America.

...

Joe Biden and the radical left are now coming for our freedom of speech. They want to bully us into submission. If they get their way, it will no longer be the silent majority. It will be the silenced majority. This has to stop. Freedom of expression used to be a liberal value. At least before the radical left took over. Now the Republican Party is the home of free speech, the place where anyone from any background can speak their mind.

...this... legitimately scares the hell out of me. These people are demonizing well over half this country, as though people who support Biden want to enact a Stalinist state complete with re-education camps and gun confiscation and family-crushing-generational-tragedy, which is (pardon the phrase, but sometimes it is necessary) fucking crazy. Even more crazy is a significant portion of this country accepts this narrative as plausible.

I honestly find myself wondering just how the divide got this great, and how this country lost sight of our shared goals of opportunity and prosperity.

[Serpent]

I have to be honest: even statements in jest about this leave me with a pit in my stomach. This country forgets the worst war we ever fought was against each other. There are no winners in civil war,

and it sometimes - usually around 3am, when I wake in a cold sweat - appears to me that the armed forces may be the only agency capable of preventing one. If it acted decisively, in unison, under a calm and well prepared leadership... I know that's a lot of ifs, but they have all those wonderful gaming computer in the basement, figuring the optimal response to just about anything that might happen in the world; surely, they have a contingency plan?

...this... legitimately scares the hell out of me.

DJT has, quite literally, no perspective, no sense of proportion, no moral compass, no boundaries. And the Republicans who have shackled themselves to his chariot are dragged along.... I wonder whether they're deluded enough to deliver those lines with conviction, or whether they're medicating and praying to lose so it will finally be over. I imagine many of them are living in some kind self-imposed purgatory they don't know how to escape.
Maybe I have too optimistic a view of human nature, but I can't believe they're all genuinely as reckless and callous as they sound.

I honestly find myself wondering just how the divide got this great, and how this country lost sight of our shared goals of opportunity and prosperity.

With a great deal of patient, expensive and clever work, over four decades - discounting the McCarthy period - by some truly evil men.

[edy420]

Vat,

Mike Pompeo the secretary of state agreed to promote Trump at the RNC.

Mike broke the law = impeach Trump? I don't follow.

The most obvious example of the dictatorial grabbing of power has recently been seen with Trump trying to allocate federal money which was already allocated by Congress

Not the easiest topic to look up. But regardless, Dictators don't try to. They just do. Did he take the money?

And using federal troops on domestic soil to attack civilians, as in Portland and a couple other US cities.

Civilians don't attack car crash victims, attempt to burn police alive, or invade civilian streets at night. Thats what terrorists do and should be enough to warrant Presidential intervention. Trumps "forces" left Portland, and now a civil war is emerging. Now people send their mothers to step up to these terrorists, because the police are powerless when their charges dont stick. It doesn't take a dictator to want to protect his people, it takes a hero.



Thats an impressive shield wall formation. A testament to our Hellenic heritage. Its also a tactic of war. If the police don't defend the people, the people will defend themselves. I may be unflattering in my over-exaggeration, but ultimately Trump needs to do more, as the situation is only escalating, no exaggeration. I thought Trump was supposed to protect his citizens from terrorists both foreign and domestic?

As for that Barr guy, do you have a specific suggestion? He seems to be under the microscope alot.

[Serpent]

Get. A. (*******). Clue.

[Serpent]

I apologize for that unconscionable breach of decorum.

[edy420]

Kidjan,

From your link,

"Trump: All of those people -- i've condemned neo-Nazis. I've condemned many different groups. Not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me."

Funny that this is usually left out. He goes on to say,

"This week, it is Robert E. Lee and this week, Stonewall Jackson. Is it George Washington next?"

A good question. The answer is, Captain James Cook is next, here in New Zealand. One of my biggest gripes about being a Western culture, is that we copy America and the UK. In school all my Maori friends walked around like little gangsters, using the N-word and acting like we are subjects of 400 years of slavery, when in fact we fought for our freedom and were never slaves. But, because we are black, poor us.

This ridiculous idea that we are American now extends to the Nazi ideology of erasing history. Because now we want to tear down a statue of Captain James Cook. The argument is that he killed 9 Maori after a dispute. While Im against cold blooded murder, I am also absolutely opposed to vandalism and erasing history. This is just one of many from the list of less than perfect historical figures. We even want to change the name of our Universities.

This isn't just cancel culture on steroids. Burning the flag and desecrating our memorials, and erasing our history is terrorism.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/121806 ... amed-after

[kidjan]

"This week, it is Robert E. Lee and this week, Stonewall Jackson. Is it George Washington next?"

A good question.

It isn't a good question. It's an exceptionally crude question, in my opinion.

First, Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson both fought a war against this country in defense of slavery. George Washington did not. We don't have monuments to Benedict Arnold; I don't know why we'd have statues of Robert E. Lee.

Second, we're talking about statues, not someone's historic legacy. Just because a statue of Lee no longer exists doesn't mean he's historically irrelevant, or they'd somehow gloss over his role in the civil war. What it does mean is: this isn't a person who needs to be commemorated in a public place, with public dollars.

Lastly, I think you may be unaware of the history behind many of these confederate monuments and statues. The statue in Charlottesville was commissioned in 1917 and completed in 1924. This was a period of time in which states were enacting Jim Crow laws to disenfranchise black Americans. The same year as Lee’s statue appeared in Charlottesville, the state of Virginia passed laws which strengthened definitions of who was “colored” and who was “white”, and which reinforced the law prohibiting interracial marriage. Then, two years later, the state passed a law to enforce racial segregation in places of public entertainment.

The intent of erecting the statue is clear: this was a monument to remind African Americans that their place was lesser. This was a statue that commemorates a heritage of slavery. It is a statue that makes it clear that a traitorous, slave-owning-and-abusing white supremacist was what American society revered and that black lives didn't matter one iota. A statue commemorating Lee is wildly inappropriate. It should have been torn down decades ago.

if you want to have a discussion about a statue of George Washington, that's something different entirely. I know some Americans want those removed as well because Washington owned slaves, but in my opinion, it's a fundamentally different discussion from Lee. And I don't know anything about James Cook, so I won't comment. But I stand by my previous assertion: "very fine people" would not rally in support of a statue of a traitorous white supremacist.

[Serpent]

Edy420, you wouldn't recognize History if it came up and punched you in the gut.

[Serpent]

May I also add that every single monument to a general, religious leader or head of state, everywhere in the world, is a lie in marble or bronze. Every last one of them needs to be pulled down, put in a statue graveyard https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/fallen-monument-park and given a plaque to explain the person's historical role.
If you save the expense of putting them up, your descendants won't have the fun of knocking them down.
(Oh, and for Reason's sweet sake, name the schools and libraries after scholars - not bullies!)

[TheVat]

Edy,

Coming to a US website, stating you don't much understand the issues, admitting your source of news is propaganda, and then grossly misrepresenting recent events here, and then telling us that citizens demonstrating to take down statues of slave owners and insurgents who tried to destroy the United States (so they could keep owning people) are actually terrorists...seems sort of embarassing.

Also, please look into the logic flaw I call the bad apple gambit. Reputable news sources show that 99% of protesters are peacefully calling from criminal justice reform as it impacts people of color, even as right-wing vigilantes wave guns at them or shoot at them or attack with bats and paintballs. The fact that a tiny percent of protestors (some provocateurs for the right-wing, as was shown in Minneapolis) are bad apples doesn't mean the whole barrel is bad. A tiny minority acting criminally in no way invalidates the larger cause for justice and an end to police brutality. I was in a peaceful demonstration in my city, part of the 99% that isn't getting much media attention especially from right-wing infotainment websites. We were moms and dads, poor and well-off, blue collar and white collar, black and white and native (indigenous), from all walks of life. No fireworks, no Molotovs, no rocks.

You should also be aware that violence has been greatest in those locations where police and federal agents have escalated against demonstrators. Often showing in their choices that they were there to protect property and not people. Often attacking people providing medical assistance to the gassed and beaten.

You are very privileged to live someplace where police are far less militarized. NZ is a nice place.

[charon]

Vat -

I was in a peaceful demonstration in my city

Don't get yourself in trouble. You may be peaceful, others may not be.

[Serpent]

Once there, very little is within your control. Trouble can come at you from any direction, no matter how careful and peaceful you are.
You know the risks before you go. And you know the risks of staying away. Hell of a position to be in, and half the people in the world seem to be confronted with that decision right now.
Ah, but when a protest is going well, when everyone is united and resolute and you're making your voices heard and you have a real hope of changing something important -
there's no high like it!
All good wishes, Vat.