Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby thinker4life on July 30th, 2017, 9:15 pm 

Serpent » July 30th, 2017, 7:18 pm wrote:
thinker4life » July 30th, 2017, 6:21 pm wrote: I do need to politely correct you that capitalism is not a political ideology. Its an economic system, focusing on privatized use of resources (as opposed to the only other economic system, which is state controlled resources).

I'm familiar with the dictionary. And the slogans.


I wrote a long and thoughtful response, with two definitions one of which is probably what you identify with as capitalism and agreeing with you that its a bad idea. If this is all you can think of to respond with, I'm done responding to you Serpent. I'm not wasting my time on you anymore.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Mossling on July 30th, 2017, 10:25 pm 

I think many people here are conflating Capitalism with greed, and in that case it doesn't really matter what socioeconomic model or political strategy is employed - greed will find a way to flourish if it is not tackled as a specific problem.

More 'greed studies' are apparently necessary - how economic 'arms races' of sorts can appear - 'keeping up with the Joneses' and so forth. And of course how it relates socioeconomically to the ever-advancing military industrial situation, which is difficult to curb since there are very real threats in the world that need to be kept at bay.

People are debating democracy here, but as we arrived at on the 'Barbarity of the Enlightenment' thread - the ultimate 'votes' come from bullets and bombs.

The military has the biggest 'democratic' power because whoever leads it successfully is 'right' in terms of what their vision of a society should be - 'right' in a sense beyond philosophical sophistry, just 'right' economically; physically and thus empirically.

The more 'peaceful' democracy is then built on top of this truth it seems. Thus, it all comes down to the interplay between greed and military organisation - who the military leaders are (and 'would be') and who is being competed with.

As I've mentioned already on this thread, competition within markets is normal, natural, and takes place within and around the sociopolitical dynamics of greed and military governance.

Never mind capitalism - what about economic 'arms races'? This is the source of the real 'toxic competition', it seems. The idea that one needs a bigger and better car/aircraft carrier than one's neighbors - be it domestic or international.

Until universal global human ethics - that appeal to rational nervous systems in general, rather than merely a 'Gods chosen people' - are powerful and tangible enough to bridge the perceived 'yuge' gaps between neighboring cultures, the greedy 'arms races' ain't gonna be curbed.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Serpent on August 3rd, 2017, 10:02 am 

thinker4life » July 30th, 2017, 8:15 pm wrote:
Serpent » July 30th, 2017, 7:18 pm wrote:
I wrote a long and thoughtful response, with two definitions one of which is probably what you identify with as capitalism and agreeing with you that its a bad idea. If this is all you can think of to respond with, I'm done responding to you Serpent. I'm not wasting my time on you anymore.

Just to be fair, I did answer your private message that same day, but for some reason, it's still sitting in my 'out' box.

The reason I didn't detail my answer here is that the subject matter has been covered more than adequately; I didn't want to go over it all again.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby BadgerJelly on August 3rd, 2017, 10:28 am 

Moss -

I think many people here are conflating Capitalism with greed, and in that case it doesn't really matter what socioeconomic model or political strategy is employed - greed will find a way to flourish if it is not tackled as a specific problem.


I guess that is a fair point, but also there is a reason behind it. We are talking about a free market where the "strongest" are meant to survive. We are talking about a competitive environment, the encouragement of conflict and infighting to some degree.

I was asking about the possibility of a competitive game where the aim is for everyone to win. I think if we invent such a game we'll be able to apply it to economics in some way. Problem is I don't have any idea what such a game would look like.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Braininvat on August 3rd, 2017, 2:10 pm 

Are we talking John Nash, then? the non-zero sum game?

Sounds like the path of some of these "Socially Responsible" investment portfolios you see advertized in conservation magazines. To be taken with the grain of salt, of course.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby BadgerJelly on August 3rd, 2017, 3:02 pm 

Braininvat » August 4th, 2017, 2:10 am wrote:Are we talking John Nash, then? the non-zero sum game?

Sounds like the path of some of these "Socially Responsible" investment portfolios you see advertized in conservation magazines. To be taken with the grain of salt, of course.


I am not going to pretend I understand enough about Game Theory to answer any better than to say maybe? If you could do a good enough job of expressing the complexity of it maybe I could answer better??

I understand the general idea of people accepting lesser gains whilst others get more. tbh most of my knowledge of this is based on the movie! haha.

The idea of what I would like seems logically impossible to me. I imagine there may be a way around the problem though? I can think of some drastic measures, but nothing very applicable to real world situations.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby Mossling on August 3rd, 2017, 10:33 pm 

The Tragedy of The Commons is normally cited as a case study when one arrives at non-zero sum game theory.

What I don't get about the way these situations are set up, is that the non-zero sum resource is framed by an existing central administrative power as being available to all, and yet the means by which the resource is harvested and distributed are allowed to be privately owned.

The normal example is cattle grazing on a commonly-owned field, with 'greedy Capitalists' putting more and more cows on there until it is over-grazed. Well the answer seems simple - make the cattle commonly owned - administered and regulated by the central administration, so that the when the cattle are sold, milked, or slaughtered for meat or leather, then the economic benefits are distributed equally between the invested parties.

Not all land is commonly available, so the greedy can do their thing elsewhere. At least there will be the basic benefits available to the poorest in society in this way (as long as there are enough common resources to support the people), and the resources are not ruined.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby BadgerJelly on August 9th, 2017, 5:03 am 

I am not sure who mentioned it, but I think cryptocurrencies will become a world changing force soon enough.

Just starting to look at the possibilities and I think the banks must be crapping themselves. It is the only area where I feel optimistic when I look around about this subject and how the internet is going to affect the economy.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby thinker4life on August 15th, 2017, 10:08 am 

BadgerJelly » August 3rd, 2017, 9:28 am wrote:Moss -

I think many people here are conflating Capitalism with greed, and in that case it doesn't really matter what socioeconomic model or political strategy is employed - greed will find a way to flourish if it is not tackled as a specific problem.


I guess that is a fair point, but also there is a reason behind it. We are talking about a free market where the "strongest" are meant to survive. We are talking about a competitive environment, the encouragement of conflict and infighting to some degree.

I was asking about the possibility of a competitive game where the aim is for everyone to win. I think if we invent such a game we'll be able to apply it to economics in some way. Problem is I don't have any idea what such a game would look like.


BadgerJelly,

I think moss has raised the right problem confusing this thread, the confusion between greed and capitalism, and you have identified the solution, which is creating regulations that make capitalisms success a win win for all members of society (and no, I'm not talking about communism). Let me try to take it one step further and show why a pragmatic solution to this problem is actually achievable. Here's my solution on why this problem exists along with links to docs that I think could actually help solve the problem:

https://goo.gl/vDPFdB

I'd love to hear your thoughts on what I've written to see if it resonates with you, as I think we agree on what the ultimate answer is, and would love your feedback on my proposed path towards achieving that goal.
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Re: Capitalism: Its decline/reformation

Postby BadgerJelly on August 17th, 2017, 12:48 am 

Will do when I get some time set aside :)
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