Is Russia really that bad?

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Is Russia really that bad?

Postby BadgerJelly on July 22nd, 2017, 2:16 am 

Being careful to stay in the bounds of the forum rules I am not here to promote this or that view or have a lists of national atrocities balanced out.

What I do question is the obvious propaganda used and to ask is the picture "western world" (or rather media) anything near unbiased or balanced?

I say this because I see Putin on many occasions speaking to people who oppose him openly. I then find myself asking "Is this merely a set up and Russian propaganda?" rather than asking "Is the western media merely set up to be completely opposed to Putin?"

What we know is if we're told X is "the real story" enough we tend to believe it, it is simply human nature and you can practice this with anyone in day to day life by telling them something completely untrue or unfounded and watch them believe you without question (I've done this several times with people and made up "facts" which would be quickly dismissed if the persons had merely thought about what I was saying, such as me stating that Everest was 20 miles high to back up some nonsense argument).

Russia is not a super power. There is only one super power. Why does the US keep up with its old cold war traditions? It seems to me that perhaps people in government in the US may very well have been influenced by the anti-Russian propaganda of those times and simply been unable to shake them off? Do you think there is any truth in this? If so how lon gwill it be before the US regards Russia as merely another nation rather than as an enemy?
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby zetreque on July 22nd, 2017, 2:29 am 

This might be going off your topic but Russia has a lot of different challenges and problems.



Not only is there a geographic problem to maintain power but they are ruining their country drilling oil. I have spent hours studying Russia on google earth and everywhere you go is oil pipelines and wells "destroying" their country. Wealthy oil barons making up the majority of wealth with a large gap to extreme poverty and disease. Doesn't seem like the future bodes well for the country as they continue on this destructive unsustainable path.

I think a lot of the current problem is fossil fuel industry corruption. Do your own experiment looking at satellite images of the country. It's incredible how many oil wells are every single place you look.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby BadgerJelly on July 22nd, 2017, 3:10 am 

I take it you agree then? Russia is trying to defend itself from "western" encroachment.

I don't think I need to mention the "wealthy" barons of US and other European institutes do I? The "corruption" is not simply only in Russia and it seems a little silly to say Russia has large amounts of its population living in poverty when the situation is no better, and often worse, in other "western" countries (I am not sure of % figures today, but I am sure I remember the US ranked LOWER than Russia for people living below the poverty line.)

Ecologically I think I know which country consumes the most fossil fuels.

I was asking about the perceived "threat" of Russia on the US as being nonsense more than anything. The aggression very clearly seems to be from the US because Russia can only posture. Do you think that the people in the US government are carrying old stigmas of Russia from its Soviet regime?

Also compare poverty of countries like China. Opposition is quick to call out the raw number of people 80+ million living below poverty line whilst ignoring the percentage of people. Not that I can trust the figures given by the Chinese government because I have necessarily been conditioned not to believe them when they contradict what is reported about China in the mainstream media.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby zetreque on July 22nd, 2017, 3:19 am 

IMO the Russian threat is linked to the fossil fuel corruption. Russia relies heavily on fossil fuels to feed their economy and their influence with using propaganda to contribute to climate change denial will only delay the US (and others) longer from migrating their energy sources. Which will hurt us in the long run. In other words, the "threat" is real because they are using propaganda to push their unsustainable agenda of fossil fuels and greed which will harm us in the long term. That's how I see it.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby wolfhnd on July 22nd, 2017, 7:02 am 

Hitler thought he would conquer Russia in a few months even though the Russian defeated the Japanese in Khalkhin Gol. I think that the lessons of World War Two are still with us today. It would be foolish to underestimate the Russian Military or at least that is the conventional wisdom.

Russia has never forgotten Napoleon and World War Two is much more a part of the Russian Zeitgeist than in the West. Fear of Western powers is a very real part of Russian psychological orientation. They certainly would not have risked taking Crimea if they didn't feel they needed a ice free port. The Crimean War is also another historical incident of Western aggression against Russia and has real emotional significance for them.

The West is perhaps unique in it's tendency to forget historical animosity. The Arabs seem to view the crusaders as something that happened yesterday. China and Korea are still demanding that Japan acknowledge war time atrocities. The Chinese still talk about the opium war. By contrast Germany and France are talking about building a combined military. Britain the evil colonial oppressor is the United States best ally. The Russian cultural orientation towards possible aggressor is both realistic from a historical perspective and consistent with cultures with long memories. The West has it's own variety of paranoia concerning Russia that predates the Cold War. Perhaps it is the subliminal memory of almost forgotten Hun invaders from the East. In any case the Russians have always been viewed in the West as less civilized than other Europeans and somehow more dangerous.

Russia may not be a super power in terms of it's ability to influence world events but it remains the second most powerful military. It's nuclear capabilities dwarf China's. It also has not fallen in line with the globalist agenda the way China has. Chinese nationalism is not seem as a threat to the economic imperialism that characterizes especially Germany's ambitions. Germany has essentially done what it could not do in two world wars and has become the defacto leader of Europe. Friendly relations between the U.S. and Russia would threaten the new European order but also the control of the international banking establishment.

One of the reasons Trump is hated so much is the belief that he does not or perhaps cannot understand the importance of the international banking relationship to global politics. His insistence on NATO paying it's own way for example is seen by the European establishment as a betrayal of the spirit of the Bretton Woods system. While Nixon betrayed the agreement in 1971 the gold standard also limited the ability of all the participants to fully engage in Keynesian economics and was perhaps seen as unavoidable. It also leveled the playing field for Europeans as the dollar would no long be hegemonic in their area of influence. The deal was at least in part a way of paying off the post World War Two debt by giving the U.S. dollar inflated value by increasing demand. The Bretton Woods agreement was replaced in this capacity by the petrol dollar but left Europe somewhat free to establish it's own hegemony.

The other problem with Trump is his desire to weaken the influence of banks by establishing trade not finance as the central figure in international economics. That is combined with the unpopular idea of leaving Japan and South Korea free to develop their own nuclear deterrence. The two are oddly related in that they both weaken the control of international financial interest to influence world events. Personally I think Trump is right because U.S. military hegemony is nearing its end and the gulf wars are only a temporary fix to a threatened petrol dollar. The failure of the international financial institutions to come to grips with the new reality is historical typical and dangerous.

The migration crisis is another aspect of the desperate attempt by the establishment to hold on to power by importing a secure voting block and using it to squelch populism which is evident by the propaganda equating populism with fascism.


The Trump Russia narrative is code for all of the above for the establishment.

Nothing I have said should be construed to imply that Putin and his Russia are not dangerous or that the establishment is anymore corrupt than any conceivable alternative. Europe and the U.S. profit or more correctly are sustained by exporting pollution and slave labor to China and to a lesser extent Russia. The corrupt nature of those two governments is an essential component of the existing system. I suspect it cannot be maintained much longer but what do I know. I can't see how it can be reformed and the phoney Marxism that is dangled in front of the masses to distract them is not going to save the elites from the revolution that will follow economic collapse.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby Sivad on July 22nd, 2017, 10:13 am 

wolfhnd » July 22nd, 2017, 4:02 am wrote:
Russia has never forgotten Napoleon and World War Two is much more a part of the Russian Zeitgeist than in the West. Fear of Western powers is a very real part of Russian psychological orientation. They certainly would not have risked taking Crimea if they didn't feel they needed a ice free port. The Crimean War is also another historical incident of Western aggression against Russia and has real emotional significance for them.

The West is perhaps unique in it's tendency to forget historical animosity.



The reason for the current animosity is much more recent -
The Harvard Boys Do Russia

Post-Soviet Russia, Made in the U.S.A.

On top of the neoliberal looting of Russia there's the ongoing military encirclement by US-NATO -

Bush backs Ukraine and Georgia for Nato membership
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby TheVat on July 22nd, 2017, 10:25 am 

https://www.brookings.edu/testimonies/the-growing-russian-military-threat-in-europe/

Offers a "yes" opinion to the OP.

From a personal perspective, I cannot do the mental gymnastics required to feel friendly towards a regime that supports a psychopathic butcher in Syria.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby Sivad on July 22nd, 2017, 10:56 am 

Braininvat » July 22nd, 2017, 7:25 am wrote:
From a personal perspective, I cannot do the mental gymnastics required to feel friendly towards a regime that supports a psychopathic butcher in Syria.


I just keep in mind that there are no good guys in geopolitics, all states actors are ruthless thugs. I view Putin's Russia as a nasty piece of work, but when judged by the same standards the US doesn't fare much better.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby Forest_Dump on July 22nd, 2017, 11:18 am 

Under the communist regime, I think Russia was going for some form of world domination for ideological reasons, Since then it is more of an arena for the inevitable thugs that rose up due to the collapse of a central government and defining ideology. The invasion of Crimea and the Ukraine was, for me, the defining criteria of a regime bent on geopolitical exploitation for the benefit of a self-appointed few.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby zetreque on July 22nd, 2017, 12:06 pm 

Sivad » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:56 am wrote:
Braininvat » July 22nd, 2017, 7:25 am wrote:
From a personal perspective, I cannot do the mental gymnastics required to feel friendly towards a regime that supports a psychopathic butcher in Syria.


I just keep in mind that there are no good guys in geopolitics, all states actors are ruthless thugs. I view Putin's Russia as a nasty piece of work, but when judged by the same standards the US doesn't fare much better.


This is true, but could the US's incredibly poor example of a democracy make it even a little less of a ruthless thug?
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby BadgerJelly on July 22nd, 2017, 12:27 pm 

Braininvat » July 22nd, 2017, 10:25 pm wrote:https://www.brookings.edu/testimonies/the-growing-russian-military-threat-in-europe/

Offers a "yes" opinion to the OP.

From a personal perspective, I cannot do the mental gymnastics required to feel friendly towards a regime that supports a psychopathic butcher in Syria.


Look at this then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkfpGCAAuw

Sivad -

It is not just Russia and the US either. Many European nations hands are covered in blood. I am tired of people picking up newspapers and watching news channels expecting that what they hear is the truth. The only genuine "news" seems to come out after the matter is over and the new spiel is being driving out into the media world.

Journalism seems to be about immediate reactions instead of actual thorough investigations. It is nothing new I just don't quite understand why everyone is willing to buy into this or that Bogeyman?

What worries me is eventually someone will come along who is completely evil and we'll not notice because we'd have become so used to misinformation and political posturing in the news we'll likely miss all the warning signs (or have them hidden away).

At least we have social media. The average joe out there although bias provide a better picture of the opposing positions than national media do.

I cannot ignore the US backing neo-nazi's in the Ukraine and then have people turning around and accusing Russia of arming rebels? I am sure they did arm some people to prevent the US getting the upper hand. We've already seen the US arm the Georgians who invaded Russia.

I am also a little concerned about Venezuela, but I don't know the full picture. Generally though the story seems to be if they have resources step in and destabilize the government. Then there is the issue of pointing the blame constantly at the US which can be all too easy given the global influence of the US making it an easy target to connect to almost any conflict indirectly.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby TheVat on July 22nd, 2017, 12:47 pm 

Sivad » July 22nd, 2017, 7:56 am wrote:
Braininvat » July 22nd, 2017, 7:25 am wrote:
From a personal perspective, I cannot do the mental gymnastics required to feel friendly towards a regime that supports a psychopathic butcher in Syria.


I just keep in mind that there are no good guys in geopolitics, all states actors are ruthless thugs. I view Putin's Russia as a nasty piece of work, but when judged by the same standards the US doesn't fare much better.


I agree. Which is why we need to do a better job voting psychopaths out of office. And make sure our elected officials have no financial or other interest in cozying up with psychopaths like Putin. Which means massive electoral reform, which may be hopeless in the United Oligarchy of America.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby Sivad on July 22nd, 2017, 2:09 pm 

zetreque » July 22nd, 2017, 9:06 am wrote:
Sivad » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:56 am wrote:
Braininvat » July 22nd, 2017, 7:25 am wrote:
From a personal perspective, I cannot do the mental gymnastics required to feel friendly towards a regime that supports a psychopathic butcher in Syria.


I just keep in mind that there are no good guys in geopolitics, all states actors are ruthless thugs. I view Putin's Russia as a nasty piece of work, but when judged by the same standards the US doesn't fare much better.


This is true, but could the US's incredibly poor example of a democracy make it even a little less of a ruthless thug?


In terms of domestic politics the US is definitely a lot less corrupt and much more open, but internationally America may even be more brutal and there's no question that it operates on a vastly larger scale. I think the American citizens have more democratic power than Russian citizens to rein in their criminal deep state, but so far that hasn't really happened.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby Sivad on July 22nd, 2017, 2:37 pm 

Braininvat » July 22nd, 2017, 9:47 am wrote:
Sivad » July 22nd, 2017, 7:56 am wrote:
Braininvat » July 22nd, 2017, 7:25 am wrote:
From a personal perspective, I cannot do the mental gymnastics required to feel friendly towards a regime that supports a psychopathic butcher in Syria.


I just keep in mind that there are no good guys in geopolitics, all states actors are ruthless thugs. I view Putin's Russia as a nasty piece of work, but when judged by the same standards the US doesn't fare much better.


I agree. Which is why we need to do a better job voting psychopaths out of office. And make sure our elected officials have no financial or other interest in cozying up with psychopaths like Putin. Which means massive electoral reform, which may be hopeless in the United Oligarchy of America.


I don't think it's hopeless, but it will be a hard struggle. Reform movements are gaining momentum within the right and the left and I think there's a chance that they might coalesce in the near future and that would likely result in some positive change. The biggest obstacle to that is partisan hypocrisy, we all clearly recognize the malfeasance of the opposition but we refuse to see our own party leaders for what they are. We're all gonna have to be honest with ourselves and each other and accept some hard truths about our respective leaders if we really want to solve the problem.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby Sivad on July 22nd, 2017, 2:56 pm 

BadgerJelly » July 22nd, 2017, 9:27 am wrote:Sivad -

It is not just Russia and the US either. Many European nations hands are covered in blood. I am tired of people picking up newspapers and watching news channels expecting that what they hear is the truth. The only genuine "news" seems to come out after the matter is over and the new spiel is being driving out into the media world.

Journalism seems to be about immediate reactions instead of actual thorough investigations. It is nothing new I just don't quite understand why everyone is willing to buy into this or that Bogeyman?


Corporate media promotes the agendas of the rich and powerful, and most people aren't savvy enough to know when they're being manipulated. People need a simple narrative with a clearly defined enemy to give them direction, so the media provides that. Reality is too complex and messy, so people retreat into propaganda and convenient fictions.

What worries me is eventually someone will come along who is completely evil and we'll not notice because we'd have become so used to misinformation and political posturing in the news we'll likely miss all the warning signs (or have them hidden away).


Bad people rule the world and we have already missed it. Our villains don't wear capes and twirl their mustaches, they have advanced degrees from top universities, they're intelligent, polite, and articulate people with sophisticated justifications for what they do and they don't consider themselves to be bad guys.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby wolfhnd on July 22nd, 2017, 8:47 pm 

Forest_Dump » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:18 pm wrote:Under the communist regime, I think Russia was going for some form of world domination for ideological reasons, Since then it is more of an arena for the inevitable thugs that rose up due to the collapse of a central government and defining ideology. The invasion of Crimea and the Ukraine was, for me, the defining criteria of a regime bent on geopolitical exploitation for the benefit of a self-appointed few.


You have to be a thug to survive at the top in some if not most cultures. The tsar was a thug, so was Lenin and Stalin. The Russian psychology favors personification of state power.

International communism wanted world domination but I'm not so sure about Stalin. Even though he wasn't Russian I think he was a nationalist first and a communist second. Even his interest in Eastern Europe was more of a traditional Russian paranoid need to provide a buffer zone than a desire to spread communism.

Russians view Eastern Europe much the way the U.S. views the Americas. The Monroe doctrine is not that much different than the Russian attitude within their "natural sphere of influence". It is hard to be overly critical of Russia and their views on Crimea considering the U.S. did exactly the same thing in Panama.

As the saying goes power corrupts. On the other hand surrendering power corrupts the principle of mutually assured destruction.

I was watching some lectures on Hunter Gatherer violence. It seems warfare in these societies accounts for roughly fifty percent of violent deaths. The disposal of "useless" infants, the elderly, and the maladaptive make up a shocking percentage of the remainder. Those numbers plummet to almost zero when they come under state control. Overall the death rate do to violence is 4 times higher than the U.S. death rate from all causes during WWII.

An argument can be made that for our pre agriculture ancestors it was a matter of kill or starve. That logic may be hardwired in our brains. I tend to not be that judgmental of groups and respect the liberal tradition of individual responsibility. That is why the current politics of group identity is so dangerous. Regardless of good intentions it feeds into some nasty instincts.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby wolfhnd on July 23rd, 2017, 12:20 am 

It is off topic but I want to promote the excellent public lectures that CARTA produces. The tribal aspects of the conflict with Russia have a deep history and understanding human nature can't hurt.

CARTA:Violence in Human Evolution:Pleistocene Societies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRsQDfgwP08
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby BadgerJelly on July 23rd, 2017, 12:57 am 

I'll look at that soon wolf ... In the meantime I have still not seen much commented on about me saying that there is a possible "soviet hang over". Are the people at the top caught up in old traditions? Should this be a serious concern?

I would add the Arab problem is much more current than from the crusades. The Brits went it there and carved the place up fairly recently and as I have mentioned before they were the first to come up with the idea of chemically bombing the Kurds and it was the lack of technical knowhow at time that prevented them from doing so.

The smoking gun always looks far worse in the hands of another.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby zetreque on July 23rd, 2017, 1:32 am 

BadgerJelly » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:57 pm wrote: In the meantime I have still not seen much commented on about me saying that there is a possible "soviet hang over". Are the people at the top caught up in old traditions? Should this be a serious concern?


My limited impression is that it's less to do with the past and more to do with just another angle to attack, highlight and try to eliminate A: The other party. and/or B: something bad for the health of the country.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby BadgerJelly on July 23rd, 2017, 2:09 am 

zetreque » July 23rd, 2017, 1:32 pm wrote:
BadgerJelly » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:57 pm wrote: In the meantime I have still not seen much commented on about me saying that there is a possible "soviet hang over". Are the people at the top caught up in old traditions? Should this be a serious concern?


My limited impression is that it's less to do with the past and more to do with just another angle to attack, highlight and try to eliminate A: The other part. and/or B: something bad for the health of the country.


I don't think it is that simple. I think we are all under some spell. I have admitted before I have a certain bias toward the US. Upon reflection this is probably a lot to do with my father's general attitude and the UK media's opinions of the US too. I have to keep myself constantly in check on this, but no matter how hard I try I cannot help see a gulf between US culture and general European culture. Of course I am not saying ALL Americans are X or Y only that there is a distinct habit of the US government and US culture that is hard for me to ignore in contrast to what I know (my culture).

I get the distinct impression (and it may be very faulty and it is the reason I am asking in this thread) that there is an issue with a generation in the US being brought up to be anti-Russian. I don't think it takes much evidence for me to back this up by the representation of the USSR in countless US movies. I here people talk about what their fathers said about the USSR or Vietnam, they have a certain view of the government they pass on to the next generation in some form or another.

Also consider that most world leaders are of an older generation (than me at least being a mere 39 yrs of age). I know when I compare my life to my parents their outlook and experience of the world has been very different to mine and with faster and faster developments across human investigations I think maybe these differences have yet to balance out with old cultural attitudes and biases imposed by propaganda (even when we recognize certain biases we cannot really shake them off so easily because we have been conditioned to fall back into them when we slightly let our guard down).

This is something I compare to what Zizek says about society today being "hypersensitive". I think the "hypersensitivity" he talks about may be in large part due to the compression of the attitudes of previous generations being imposed on the next. It seems like whilst the gap between generations has been extended by technology that the general biases being espoused have not been sundered from by gone times.

To put this in less fancified terms I am again referring to the communications explosion and the generational adjustment to this in regards to propaganda and globalization. Things are changing so quickly we seem to hold nations and cultures to debt over things they no longer represent in their society or general culture.

In the example above we see Biv getting all moral about what Russians do without paying due attention to the tit-for-tat reactions still holding since the Cold War. I just find it bizarre to be accusing other nations of interference when the singular global power has more hold over every other nation and interferes with other nations continually (albeit for good or bad, that is down to individual assessment and judgement).

Is what the Russians did in the Ukraine "wrong"? idk!? Did they start poisoning people or was that a ploy by the US to discredit the Russian government? We can do a little digging and see that a lot of what is reported in the media in the UK and US is quite blatantly propaganda. This is not to say that Russia is by any means a perfect nation, far from it! None really are as Sivad points out.

The post recently about "Asgardia" made me think a little how possible it would be for people to actually start to take control for themselves and disassemble the idea of nationhood? Will continue post elsewhere about that!
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby zetreque on July 23rd, 2017, 2:19 am 

I get the distinct impression (and it may be very faulty and it is the reason I am asking in this thread) that there is an issue with a generation in the US being brought up to be anti-Russian.


That seems kind of strange to me.

Being an American I don't see a generation being brought up Anti-Russian. Actually I live and work around people I consider to practically be Russian because they are from the same region and I never gave it any thought. And considering that there actually are a lot of people supporting the president and that garbage, there are people that are pro-Russia.

All the Anti-Russian stuff right now in my life is strictly because of current politics and political actions of the past year that I have become aware of. It's being brought out right now due to current politics. In other words. I think as far as the average uninformed citizen is aware, this is all new.

Movies were just movies and past is past. Or was past until recently.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby BadgerJelly on July 23rd, 2017, 2:23 am 

You don't think people are that easily impressionable?
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby zetreque on July 23rd, 2017, 2:27 am 

BadgerJelly » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:23 pm wrote:You don't think people are that easily impressionable?



What I think is it's very easy for current politics and propaganda to bring the past anti-Russia aka anti-communism attitudes to the present to go against an obviously horrendous president. Up until recently, for the average uninformed citizen it was just a subject they snoozed through in history class.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby BadgerJelly on July 23rd, 2017, 2:40 am 

zetreque » July 23rd, 2017, 2:27 pm wrote:
BadgerJelly » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:23 pm wrote:You don't think people are that easily impressionable?



What I think is it's very easy for current politics and propaganda to bring the past anti-Russia aka anti-communism attitudes to the present to go against an obviously horrendous president. Up until recently, for the average uninformed citizen it was just a subject they snoozed through in history class.


I am assuming the people involved in governing the country they are in have been exposed to past events. This is what I am getting at.

I find it a little hard to see that the current government in the US can be impartial about the historical events involving the USSR given that their parents were probably very much involved in politics too and that most of the entertainment industry was plying a certain bias of the Russians. I am talking about the effect on the youth, and in the case of more elderly leaders today it would be more appropriate to compare some to impressions put on them by WWII relatives as well.

I know my granddad said he'd never forgive the Japanese and as far as I know he never came to understand the treatment they dished out to people in the war. That said many soldiers in WWII never talked to their families about what they did, but I imagine they still expressed certain views indirectly on impressionable youths. Kids absorb everything around them.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby zetreque on July 23rd, 2017, 2:40 am 

I just realized another weird thing. Anti-Russia is associated with Anti-communism. The current Anti-Russia move is probably to associate Russia with capitalism in a way because it's the "left" that is pushing it. Growing up without even knowing what communism was I was brainwashed to associate it with "bad." so the weird thing now is to think how the younger generation is probably going to be associating anti-Russia with anti-capitalism in some way. It's just weird because everything kind of blurs together when you think about it deeper.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby wolfhnd on July 23rd, 2017, 5:13 am 

I made the point early on that foes can become friends very quickly in geo politics. The Russians were nominally allies during WWII. Somehow the communist threat could be overlooked. The evidence is that Roosevelt did not anticipate the brutal subjugation of Eastern Europe at the end of the war. It could be argued that some members of his administration were even sympathetic to communism. It wasn't until the murderous nature of communism became clear that many intellectuals began to see Russia as a problem. The body count was just to large to ignore.

The propaganda of left leaning media and the educational system is largely a product of omission. The communist threat was not imaginary. Your not going to find Michael Moore relating that Castro lobbied Russia for a first strike nuclear solution for example.

There is no doubt that Russia activity infiltrated American institution for subversion although perhaps not to the level that they did in say the British government. Are they engaged in the same kind of activity today? I have seen no hard evidence to support that claim but past behavior makes it sound more credible than it probably is. If espionage was the only criteria by which to judge hostile intent then we would be more focused on Japan and Israel than Russia.

There is nothing inherently malevolent about foreign governments trying to influence our elections. Obama tried to influence the Brexit vote for example. It is a question of how they go about it. If Putin had openly supported Trump I would have no problem with that. If they hacked the voting machines well that is a different matter.

If you are just talking about the left and the media and their attitude towards Russia then it could be that they hate Russia because they feel they betrayed communism. That does not explain why a neo liberal globalist like Clinton would take such a hard anti Russian line but I explained that above.

The right may be sympathetic to Russia to prove how bad communism is. If the post communist Russia became a glowing example of liberal democracy it would pretty much prove that socialism is a moribund ideology. Remember Marx hated liberal democracy so it's safe to say his accolades do as well which is the real cultural battleground. Not socialism vs fascism but Marxism vs liberal democracy. Equally of outcome has a real emotional appeal to many people.

How friendly the U.S. should be with Russia is a more complex issue. I certainly have questions about Obama arming the Syrian rebels. Remember Afghanistan and our policy of arming Russian opposition came back to bite us. These questions are always about the lesser of two evils. Right now the Islamists are at least overtly more of a problem. Then again we are in bed with the oppressive Saudi government. I don't find Islam to be an existential threat but they are in bed with home grown Marxist that are. The irony of a fascist religious ideology being aligned with "progressive" ideology is hard not to laugh at.

There is no single answer to the question of how the cold war continues to effect the emotional views of Western citizens today because they are not a monolith.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby Sivad on July 23rd, 2017, 5:18 am 

zetreque » July 22nd, 2017, 11:40 pm wrote:I just realized another weird thing. Anti-Russia is associated with Anti-communism. The current Anti-Russia move is probably to associate Russia with capitalism in a way because it's the "left" that is pushing it.


It's not the left, it's the establishment "centrists", the big philanthro-captitalists that back the big foundations and their media organs and think tanks like the Washington Post, NYT, and Brookings, that are pushing it. It's not being framed as anti-capitalist, Russia is being painted as a rogue state operating outside the fold of Western clientelism. The Western establishment has already done much worse to Russian society and the other societies in that region than anything Putin has done, the Western elites don't care about those people or their countries, they just want economic hegemony over that region.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby wolfhnd on July 23rd, 2017, 5:34 am 

Sivad » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:18 am wrote:
zetreque » July 22nd, 2017, 11:40 pm wrote:I just realized another weird thing. Anti-Russia is associated with Anti-communism. The current Anti-Russia move is probably to associate Russia with capitalism in a way because it's the "left" that is pushing it.


It's not the left, it's the establishment "centrists", the big philanthro-captitalists that back the big foundations and their media organs and think tanks like the Washington Post, NYT, and Brookings, that are pushing it. It's not being framed as anti-capitalist, Russia is being painted as a rogue state operating outside the fold of Western clientelism. The Western establishment has already done much worse to Russian society and the other societies in that region than anything Putin has done, the Western elites don't care about those people or their countries, they just want economic hegemony over that region.


Yes yes but he is asking about the psychological orientation of the citizens. Also the left has ironically become the point of the spear for the globalist. This only makes sense if you distinguish between liberal and leftist. I guess we have to take by any means necessary seriously but the strange bedfellows is pretty funny.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby Sivad on July 23rd, 2017, 7:04 am 

wolfhnd » July 23rd, 2017, 2:34 am wrote:Yes yes but he is asking about the psychological orientation of the citizens. Also the left has ironically become the point of the spear for the globalist. This only makes sense if you distinguish between liberal and leftist. I guess we have to take by any means necessary seriously but the strange bedfellows is pretty funny.


How is the left the point of the spear for globalism? Globalism is a 'third-way' market centered ideology based on privatization, deregulation, free trade, and fiscal austerity. It's hardly leftist, if anything it's extremely anti-democratic and corporatist. It's the mega rich, international corporations, and the elite managerial class that support mainstream neoliberal globalism. There is a lot of support on the left for alter-globalization, but that's very different from the brand of globalism being advanced by institutions like the IMF, the WTO, and the WBG.
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Re: Is Russia really that bad?

Postby Sivad on July 23rd, 2017, 7:19 am 

The left has gone off the deep end with open immigration and identity politics, but that doesn't make it the vanguard of globalism.
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