Universal Basic Income (UBI) In-coming?

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Re: Universal Basic Income (UBI) In-coming?

Postby Mossling on June 30th, 2018, 2:42 am 

wolfhnd » June 30th, 2018, 3:18 pm wrote:as I see it is that the majority of people will only find dignity through socially meaningful work and for most that means fairly menial work.

Caring for the elderly or disabled on a voluntary basis can be a huge source of dignity. People from all economic backgrounds do it already within the current system.

Absolute poverty is well on it's way to bring resolved under the current system it's time to start focusing more on spiritual poverty.

Absolutely agree. Although this seems to be the age-old issue - Antisthenes, Socrates' more ascetic disciple, was famous for his 'penniless wealth' which he accrued as spiritual insight under Socrates. He is not the more famous of the students, however, and probably was seen as highly politically dangerous. No political person likes those who don't need any significant material benefits unless it means more benefits for themselves.

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Re: Universal Basic Income (UBI) In-coming?

Postby BadgerJelly on June 30th, 2018, 2:49 am 

How about we simply imagine that money isn’t an issue and everyone can do as they please. What would people do with themselves?

I ask this because I believe the best course of action (as far as I can tell) is to equip people with a means to approach a meaningful life. Everyone has heard the story about lottery winners who end up miserable and giving their money away to return to their job. People who’ve never been given the oportunity to enrich themselves with arts or study have no idea what to do with themselves when the lucky opportunity cmoes along where they are free to do anything they wish.

For this reason a practical social program for personal development seems to me to be a very worthy area of investigation. The economics and such will run the course it runs. If people have personal value and meaning in thier lives beyond economic restrictions then they have a “good” life in which they can act with the world rather than feel like a cog in a machine that once lesuire time comes along they can put it to use rather than sit idle and dumbfounded by their own finite existence.

Note: maybe Schiller is getting to me ;D
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Re: Universal Basic Income (UBI) In-coming?

Postby Mossling on June 30th, 2018, 5:35 am 

BadgerJelly » June 30th, 2018, 3:49 pm wrote:How about we simply imagine that money isn’t an issue and everyone can do as they please. What would people do with themselves?

Off the top of my head - go fishing, raise dogs, gardening, sports, cooking, work out, hiking, travelling....

I ask this because I believe the best course of action (as far as I can tell) is to equip people with a means to approach a meaningful life.

Again, there will probably need to be an increase in practical spiritual education, but I think you perhaps underestimate the tangible spiritual aspects of even the activities I mention above.

Everyone has heard the story about lottery winners who end up miserable and giving their money away to return to their job.

UBI will be far from affecting people like a lottery win, and those who gave it away I am guessing still held onto the funds for the existential basics - shelter, food, water, and so on.

People who’ve never been given the oportunity to enrich themselves with arts or study have no idea what to do with themselves when the lucky opportunity cmoes along where they are free to do anything they wish.

I'm sure there will be some, but again, there are those activities above that they can get stuck into, or they can volunteer or even invest some of their UBI in a business project and work on that.

If people have personal value and meaning in thier lives beyond economic restrictions then they have a “good” life in which they can act with the world rather than feel like a cog in a machine that once lesuire time comes along they can put it to use rather than sit idle and dumbfounded by their own finite existence.

I don't think UBI will eliminate bad people in society, it will just make those who feel ignored and uncared for cared for that much more, which I think is a good thing.
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Re: Universal Basic Income (UBI) In-coming?

Postby Serpent on June 30th, 2018, 10:12 am 

wolfhnd » June 30th, 2018, 12:43 am wrote:These things are so incredibly complicated that I think it is easier to have a discussion about a low resolution grand narrative or morality.

Perhaps. But the complexity of life doesn't give us an escape from dealing with our life.
It might be helpful to begin with accurate and complete definitions. We could, for instance, rephrase political definitions as a function of the central principle of an "ism":
In Capitalism, the administration is organized in the service of capital.
In Socialism, the economy is organized in service of the society.
Either of those can be done by the means and methods of any type of political structure: democracy, monarchy, military dictatorship, alternating party rule....
A moral and free population solves most of the issue.

I concur. As such a population has not yet been brought about, in spite of political experimentation, we have, in the meantime, to organize the best we can the people we do have. The question then becomes, which central principle do we choose for our model of governance? What is the purpose, and what should be the mandate, of government?
That is the meaning behind a government that governs least governs best.

Agreed, absolutely. That's why I said the government whose policies are most nearly aligned with the desires of its citizenry needs to exert the least force. This is not invariably so in capitalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_deaths_in_United_States_labor_disputes
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Re: Universal Basic Income (UBI) In-coming?

Postby BadgerJelly on June 30th, 2018, 10:48 am 

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Re: Universal Basic Income (UBI) In-coming?

Postby Serpent on June 30th, 2018, 11:13 am 

In an attempt to deal with complexity, let's examine these propositions:

those with an IQ under 90, will be unable to find meaningful employment in the near future.

They won't be alone. In the near future - that is, within 50 years, or roughly two generations*, as much as 80% of the workforce will be obsolete. It may have started with the least intelligent people, but it has already reached the computer programmers, engineers and accountants: it's lapping at the chest of 130 pointers - and rising. (And, of course, we have, and always have had, people of medium and high IQ doing low-level jobs. There was never unlimited room at the top; there has never been unlimited or evenly distributed opportunity.)

The problem of the intellectually challenged was solved in the 1970's by placing the more independent individuals in paid menial jobs, such as laundry, cafeteria service and shelf-stocking (at which, incidentally, they excelled , simply because they took the work seriously and actually enjoyed it, while more clever co-workers chafed and slacked off.). Those requiring supewrvision were placed in sheltered workshops or some similar arrangement.
Well, how about paying those same people UBI and asking them to sign up for their choice of voluntary work, doing laundry in a day-care center, delivering meals to housebound seniors, and stocking the shelves at a food bank? Or whatever they're good at and enjoy doing?

But then, we have to place those with IQ's from 90 to 110, somewhere other than prison, where they're way more expensive than UBI, and still doing menial work. Seems to me, there is lots of public works infrastructure in need of repair. Maybe we don't need drivers anymore, but we still need somebody to control steamrollers and cement mixers. Maybe we don't need secretaries anymore, but we still need traffic directed and wounds bandaged, meals cooked and children instructed.

The present challenge is the placement of 110-130's, with no upper limit in sight.

(Ahem. May we respectfully ask conservative legislators and unelected clergy to stop interfering in people's management of their own reproductive function? We might do with a smaller surplus population.)

Of course, whatever profit there is in automating resource-extraction, production, packaging, transport and distribution of goods is cancelled at the moment that the amount available goods exceed the amount of consumers' disposable income. That moment has already arrived. We're buying on credit, living on credit, doing business on credit - and that, too, must reach its tipping point. Sooner rather than later, money will lose its utility as a medium of exchange. We'll be reduced to exchanging tangible goods and services, and keeping score - if we still insist on keeping score - through computer data alone.

UBI is nothing more than a transitional phase.

*(barring total breakdown of economic and political structures)
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Re: Universal Basic Income (UBI) In-coming?

Postby Mossling on June 30th, 2018, 10:43 pm 

Serpent » July 1st, 2018, 12:13 am wrote:The problem of the intellectually challenged

You don't need to be an intellectual to be warm-hearted, and warm-hearted individuals can contribute to a society - indeed, their warm-heartedness inclines them to want to do so.

Sooner rather than later, money will lose its utility as a medium of exchange. We'll be reduced to exchanging tangible goods and services, and keeping score - if we still insist on keeping score - through computer data alone.

UBI is nothing more than a transitional phase.

.... in your opinion.

Currencies' values can fluctuate, but the convenience of money tends to keep it in use.
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Re: Universal Basic Income (UBI) In-coming?

Postby Serpent on July 1st, 2018, 12:45 am 

Mossling » June 30th, 2018, 9:43 pm wrote:[UBI is nothing more than a transitional phase.]
.... in your opinion.

Obviously. When expressing someone else's, I use quotation marks and a citation.

Currencies' values can fluctuate, but the convenience of money tends to keep it in use.

As long as it is convenient. The down-side of convenience is insecurity: what's easy to use is easy to steal. Quite a lot of the money in circulation is imaginary already, and I don't see that trend reversing - at least, not until the www comes down, at which point, you'll probably use Legos or poker chips as a medium of exchange. Don't know how a government can standardize them....
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