Request for negative feedback

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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Zanthius on April 8th, 2018, 3:33 pm 

Braininvat » April 8th, 2018, 2:11 pm wrote:Well, that and the armed guard towers. Nothing builds trust of foreigners like men with rifles.


Well, you know, if you are going to have thousands (maybe millions) of these standardized educational facilities spread around in third world countries, you also have some responsibility to provide a safe environment for the people working there. I know of aid workers that had to flee from Congo when NATO left, because it quickly became too dangerous for them.

Safety is a basic human need. Without it, not a lot can be accomplished. And trust me, even the locals will in most cases prefer to have those armed guard towers, because also they will feel more safe there then.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Serpent on April 8th, 2018, 4:32 pm 

Fortifications have never succeeded in safeguarding anyone's rights or freedoms.
The Chinese wall didn't keep the Mongols out; Hadrian's wall didn't keep the Picts in or out;the Berlin wall and the Iron Curtain didn't keep all the people in or all the contraband out. Have you seen the medieval castles of Europe? Fortifications eat up resources like no other futile endeavour except war machinery.

Collect up and recycle all the combat weapons (hunting rifles, too, come to think of it: we have no more wild animals to waste.) and let the communities of the world make their own educational arrangements. What somebody in Tokyo needs to learn is not necessarily what somebody in Montevideo needs to learn, never mind rural Siberia. People everywhere already know a lot of the things they need to know; just have to fill in whatever gaps they become aware of - they, not you or I or some bureaucrat in Brussels thinks they ought to know. And there are already lots of foundations and programs to spread knowledge. Let them do the work they've already planned out.

Anyway, if the hills are swarming with armed enemies of education and health, you shouldn't be building hospitals and schools yet; you should be building functional communities. Use mobile medical, agricultural and engineering units to set damaged towns back on their feet, then let them decide what they need to build, in which order. Once the danger of invaders is past, those feral boys will come home on their own.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Zanthius on April 8th, 2018, 4:48 pm 

Serpent » April 8th, 2018, 3:32 pm wrote:Collect up and recycle all the combat weapons (hunting rifles, too, come to think of it: we have no more wild animals to waste.) and let the communities of the world make their own educational arrangements. What somebody in Tokyo needs to learn is not necessarily what somebody in Montevideo needs to learn, never mind rural Siberia. People everywhere already know a lot of the things they need to know; just have to fill in whatever gaps they become aware of - they, not you or I or some bureaucrat in Brussels thinks they ought to know. And there are already lots of foundations and programs to spread knowledge. Let them do the work they've already planned out.


The thing is, that I dislike the educational systems even in the most advanced western democracies. Not so much the universities, but everything before that. I think kids should know 4 languages, the multiplication table, and the periodic table when they are 3 years old.

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I think kids should know how to draw lewis structures and make models of medical molecules before they are 6.

Image

Image

In general, I think people should have a much higher educational level before they start at universities. They should know at least as much as a person that already has a bachelor degree in natural sciences, before they start at universities. And in general, I think everything should be about motivating children to become interested in learning themselves. Nothing good comes from forcing children to learn.

https://www.archania.org/education/
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby wolfhnd on April 8th, 2018, 5:53 pm 

Your right having the conversation is the first step. This thread is encouraging.

Keeping education from being indoctrination is surely a significant hurdle. Decentralizing as much as possible and using blockchains to preserve individuality and prevent governments from co-oping the system seems like a good idea. The internet opens up all sorts of never before seen options to create networks of people that can share ideas.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Serpent on April 8th, 2018, 6:54 pm 

Zanthius » April 8th, 2018, 3:48 pm wrote:The thing is, that I dislike the educational systems even in the most advanced western democracies. Not so much the universities, but everything before that. I think kids should know 4 languages, the multiplication table, and the periodic table when they are 3 years old. I think kids should know how to draw lewis structures and make models of medical molecules before they are 6.

What the hell for?
Let the poor little mites play ball, fingerpaint and help their mothers weed the garden.

When/if you become emperor of the world, that's the system you'll implement.

Meanwhile, it would be far more useful for people to learn reading and arithmetic, sustainable agriculture, birth control and disease prevention, conservation, renewable energy production, hydraulics, traditional building and garment making methods that use local resources efficiently- whatever it takes for each region to be self-sufficient.
When they have the surplus production to insure everyone in their community a reasonable living, they will have the leisure time to pursue knowledge - as they have the desire and aptitude.

Most people don't need to or want to spend their youth in university. Why should they? It takes only a handful of engineers to maintain the machinery of manufacturing. If you train one doctor and three nurses for every 500 population, that's ample. 90% of the business and 50% of the law degrees are already so much wallpaper. Right now, there are thousands of PhD candidates in Canada alone, who have no chance of employment in their special area: they're surplus to requirements.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby BadgerJelly on April 8th, 2018, 9:34 pm 

Zanthius » April 9th, 2018, 2:14 am wrote:
BadgerJelly » April 8th, 2018, 12:39 pm wrote:What constitutes discrimination and how does this relate to freedom? Discrimination is a broad term and an important one.


The type of discrimination I am concerned about, is when countries have less rights for women, and when societies have made homosexuality illegal. There are actually societies that have death penalty for homosexuality.


May as well start here. How do you propose to change the law in other countries? Do you think anyone is going to stop taking oil from the Saudi's?
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby wolfhnd on April 8th, 2018, 10:15 pm 

I really think that this has gotten a bit too negative.

As I always do I think you need to state your priorities to make this conversation work. Let me start. The order is from most important but obviously that is somewhat flexible. Most of things involve the government to some extent but keep in mind that I don't think any of them can be done properly without a moral population and maximum individual freedom. It also goes without saying that a strong economy is central to organizing a strong society.

Water security
Food Security
Housing
Energy Security
Healthcare
Crime Prevention
Nuclear Disarmament
Clean air and water
Military Deterrents
Free Trade
Employment
Improved Education
Disease Control
Infrastructure Roads etc.
Population Control
Wildlife and Habitat
Research (technological advancement)
Reduced Inefficiencies and Overreach of Bureaucracies
Mental Health
Drug Abuse
Recreation
Climate
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby BadgerJelly on April 8th, 2018, 11:32 pm 

Wolf -

The issue is the level of naivety being expressed here.

The "solution" says nothing about how to implementation. It is wishful thinking, and the more I look the more it looks like these ideas are based on strange assumptions about humans and the current state of society.

for example:

Safety is a basic human need. Without it, not a lot can be accomplished. And trust me, even the locals will in most cases prefer to have those armed guard towers, because also they will feel more safe there then.


Who is going to pay for this? How do we dispel possiblbe corruption? Is not safety without conflict nothing at all?

We can all come up with visions of a better world. I don't believe this person has really looked at any basic counter argument to their intial assumptions about high earners or the state of equality.

That said, it is nice to see someone bothering to set out their ideas and thoughts with citations. That is why I am responding and will go over the essay carefully soon enough.

In the opening paragraph or two this is said:

Global wealth inequality is currently enormous, with 0.7% of the richest people in the world owning 45.6% of the world's wealth, while 73.2% of the poorest people in the world own only 2.4% of the world's wealth[4].


This is disingenuous. War, poverty has reduced and education is on the up. There is always going to be a gap, and there is certainly more work to do - it has been improving rapidly though on a global scale.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Zanthius on April 9th, 2018, 3:27 am 

Serpent » April 8th, 2018, 5:54 pm wrote:Meanwhile, it would be far more useful for people to learn reading and arithmetic, sustainable agriculture, birth control and disease prevention, conservation, renewable energy production, hydraulics, traditional building and garment making methods that use local resources efficiently- whatever it takes for each region to be self-sufficient.


Almost all of those things rely on a basic understanding of natural sciences. Without a high level scientific literacy in the general population, politicians and policy makers won't necessarily be able to communicate their ideas to the general population, or the general population will elect leaders that also are scientifically illiterate. This is actually the situation in many western democracies today. Except for Angela Merkel, there aren't a lot of political leaders today that have a high level of scientific literacy.

Serpent » April 8th, 2018, 5:54 pm wrote:Most people don't need to or want to spend their youth in university. Why should they? It takes only a handful of engineers to maintain the machinery of manufacturing.


Sure. I don't necessarily think that more people should study in universities. Rather, I think that people should have some level of scientific literacy even if they haven't studied in universities. This is important, not necessarily because we need more engineers, but rather because the general population needs to have some level of scientific literacy in order for scientific concepts to be communicated efficiently between the members of a society.

It doesn't help a society much to have a few highly educated scientists, if those scientists are unable to communicate their ideas to the general population. Without public support, the scientists are not necessarily going to get any funding.

According to this article, USA had a scientific literacy rate of about 28% in 2008, and was second best in the world, after Sweden.

https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/science-public/science-literacy-us-college-courses-really-count

I don't think 28% is overly impressive. If people can learn to read and write, they should also be capable of wrapping their brains around basic scientific concepts.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Zanthius on April 9th, 2018, 7:25 am 

I made this graph to emphasize the importance of scientific literacy:

Image

https://www.archania.org/education/#The_importance_of_scientific_literacy
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Braininvat on April 9th, 2018, 9:19 am 

wolfhnd » April 8th, 2018, 7:15 pm wrote:I really think that this has gotten a bit too negative.



Wolf, notice the thread title. I believe members took that to mean a request for critique. Ya can't make an omelet without breaking eggs, as the saying goes.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Zanthius on April 9th, 2018, 9:55 am 

Braininvat » April 9th, 2018, 8:19 am wrote:Wolf, notice the thread title. I believe members took that to mean a request for critique. Ya can't make an omelet without breaking eggs, as the saying goes.


I certainly value negative feedback much more than positive feedback, but negative feedback should ideally be precise, articulate, and have a high level of intellectual probity.

If people for example are criticising something without even bothering to investigate it, it is not necessarily valuable negative feedback. People yelling at each other without listening to each other, is certainly not a very efficient form of communication.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby BadgerJelly on April 9th, 2018, 11:13 am 

Zanthius » April 9th, 2018, 7:25 pm wrote:I made this graph to emphasize the importance of scientific literacy:

Image

https://www.archania.org/education/#The_importance_of_scientific_literacy


The huge issue is putting this information to practical use. We've known for some time about better schooling methods, but the issue is making it applicable to modern life and making it affordable.

Does newborn have more grey matter due to having parents speaking two languages? Yes, and if I remember correctly this only applies within the first two years (if that?) of neurogenesis. After that period the new language is "attached" to the language first learn.

If you're merely outlining the best possible system in order to create something to aim for that is fine. I am unsure how this could be applied to the real world though - other than through using the internet; and I would speculate about future uses of VR, but first we need to get more people into a wealthier situation (this is happening fast enough.)

I have seen people talking about monetizing education, and I don't think that is worthwhile useless we're talking about it in a indirect way. Bill Gates, one of those rich people whose money you want to tax away, is actually doing some seriously good work and others are chipping in too.

My negative feedback can be summed up easily enough in tow parts

1) Present practical use of what you've outlined - conceptualizing is nothing like real application.

2) Present flaws with your views and ideas openly so as not to look naïve and/or dismissive of the limitations of you ideas.

I have not seen you mention anything about religious indoctrination and how to deal with that? Religion is not going away anytime soon - I don't think it can.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Serpent on April 9th, 2018, 11:31 am 

Zanthius » April 9th, 2018, 2:27 am wrote:Almost all of those things rely on a basic understanding of natural sciences.

The key word here is 'basic'. Making 1st graders draw molecular formulas with chubby little fingers that can barely hold a pencil upright is not basic understanding - it's child abuse.
Without a high level scientific literacy in the general population, politicians and policy makers won't necessarily be able to communicate their ideas to the general population,

"Could your village use a clean, quiet wind-turbine to make electricity or would dam on the river be bettwr for you.?" It ain't neurobiology! It doesn't need four languages in kindergarten to build a dam. People were doing that before they invented writing.

I think that people should have some level of scientific literacy even if they haven't studied in universities. This is important, not necessarily because we need more engineers, but rather because the general population needs to have some level of scientific literacy in order for scientific concepts to be communicated efficiently between the members of a society.

Anyone who can teach it in elementary school can explain it on television and in the newspapers - or on You Tube, which they're already doing. Make knowledge available - don't ram it down people's throats.

It doesn't help a society much to have a few highly educated scientists, if those scientists are unable to communicate their ideas to the general population. Without public support, the scientists are not necessarily going to get any funding.

Make knowledge available. Let the scientists bring their projects before the general public, explain what, why and how much they need.

According to this article, USA had a scientific literacy rate of about 28% in 2008, and was second best in the world, after Sweden.

The USA has had shitty politics long enough for some states to ban atheists from holding public office and make Genesis a compulsory science course. Americans get their science information through the commercial popular media, which tries to make it "fun". Even so, there are programs with adequate content in among the cartoons and coloured flashes . That's the kind of thing normal people need - not being clobbered with a ton of homework in Grade 1.

If the purpose of changing the system is to promote human happiness, don't turn childhood into drudgery.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Zanthius on April 9th, 2018, 11:49 am 

BadgerJelly » April 9th, 2018, 10:13 am wrote:I have not seen you mention anything about religious indoctrination and how to deal with that? Religion is not going away anytime soon - I don't think it can.


The problem with religious indoctrination, is that if it is incorporated into your neural network very early (like a mother tongue), it can be very difficult to become agnostic or atheistic later. I made this diagram to show that atheists don't necessarily suffer from the nihilistic nightmare envisioned by Jordan Peterson, Nietzsche, and Dostoevsky:

Image

Even so, Jordan Peterson doesn't necessarily seem capable of wrapping his brain around this. He seems to think that an existential crisis or a nihilistic nightmare, is an inevitable consequence of being an atheist. This is not the case, since most atheists growing up today aren't indoctrinated as children.

You can however get this problem when children are indoctrinated with religions, and then people will be reluctant to turn to atheism later in life, since it might produce cognitive dissonance.

The solution is probably to start school very early, before the parents have had enough time to indoctrinate their children.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Zanthius on April 9th, 2018, 11:59 am 

Serpent » April 9th, 2018, 10:31 am wrote:That's the kind of thing normal people need - not being clobbered with a ton of homework in Grade 1.


I am completely against homework, and I am against forcing children to learn anything. Children learn much more effectively if they are motivated themselves. The way to make kids more interested in learning, is by limiting the availability of non-educational media, while maximizing the availability of educational media.

Serpent » April 9th, 2018, 10:31 am wrote:Make knowledge available - don't ram it down people's throats.


Lots of people thought Internet would make people better informed and less ignorant, but this doesn't seem to be the case. Only a small percentage of the world population is actually using Internet to acquire more information. Most people seem to prefer to be inside of echo chambers.

It is not enough to make knowledge more available. You also need to make highly entertaining non-educational media less available, otherwise kids are likely to prefer highly entertaining non-educational media. It is kinda like with candies. It isn't necessarily enough to make healthy food more available, you also need to make candies less available.

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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby BadgerJelly on April 9th, 2018, 12:15 pm 

Zanthius -

What does intrigue me is you think that one kind of indoctrination is better than the other.

Personally I see "religion" (as in "religiosity") as a part of being human. I would also say that the existential crisis of humans is somewhat subdued (rightly or wrongly) by religious beliefs. This would be something likely to be revealed more over this century with further research into psychedelics.

I don't think everyone suffers from severe existential crisis either. Like in education and everything else each person has certain proclivities that better fit certain paths in life. For some competition and conflict is a good thing whilst for others isolation and comfort suits their temperament better.

I actually view the situation of "language" as being the expression of some deeper structure. Religion for me is precisely what people are referring to, whethe rthey know it or not. Language goes beyond a mere exchange of symbols, and "language", in the common sense of the word, over covers the worded, spoken and signed communication we all know quite explicitly.

I am completely against homework, and I am against forcing children to learn anything.


I agree with this though. Children are born learning, they actually have curiosity beaten out of them (for their own personal safety), and then we expect them to shift back into an explorative state. It is so unbelievably hard to do.

Real teachers don't "teach", they facilitate. If you could enforce that in every school around the world things would instantly start to improve - sadly it is unrealistic to expect such a change over night and even if it were possible the shift in method would cause bedlam.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Braininvat on April 9th, 2018, 12:20 pm 

For the purpose of clarity, we should probably distinguish between religious indoctrination and religion. Not all religious teaching produces a brainwashed follower. I know plenty of people who, like me, had Jesus presented to us in our childhood as a spiritual teacher of compassion and ethical behavior without it being done as a strongly sectarian thing or freighted with a lot of metaphysics. I had no difficulty, as I grew older, with finding that there were other great teachers and spiritual leaders, from Buddha to Gandhi, who put forth life-affirming values and served as role models for millions of people. Nor did I find those values collapsing when I did not myself find any evidence for a personal deity. Not every spiritual person is an extremist with an AK-47 and a heart full of rage. I hope we can agree on that.

I would not equate growing and learning with a plunge into cognitive dissonance. As a science guy, I find agnosticism the most intellectually tenable position, since I lack omniscience. Science and spirituality are different domains, epistemologically, and there is no reason people can't explore both. Unless a totalitarian world government forbids them to. The Soviets tried banning religion for many years, and we see how well that worked out.

As for teaching more science literacy to everyone, I doubt Zanthius would find much disagreement on that basic principle at a place like SPCF. Heh!

Probably the best approach for elementary education is to teach children the rudiments of scientific method and how to evaluate evidence. When people respond to evidence, rather than authority, reason tends to prevail over unreason.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Zanthius on April 9th, 2018, 12:49 pm 

BadgerJelly » April 9th, 2018, 10:13 am wrote:The huge issue is putting this information to practical use. We've known for some time about better schooling methods, but the issue is making it applicable to modern life and making it affordable.


I have been thinking about something like this:

Image

https://www.archania.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6

But, I haven't found anyone interesting in working on this project with me yet, and it is quite a lot of work to do just by myself.

I have also collected lots of educational media on this page: https://www.archania.org/education/resources/
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Zanthius on April 9th, 2018, 3:44 pm 

Serpent » April 9th, 2018, 10:31 am wrote:"Could your village use a clean, quiet wind-turbine to make electricity or would dam on the river be bettwr for you.?" It ain't neurobiology! It doesn't need four languages in kindergarten to build a dam. People were doing that before they invented writing.


I don't necessarily think that all toddlers need to learn 4 languages. I do however think that if you want your kids to learn 4 languages, it is much better to start teaching them when they are toddlers, since the brain is more receptive for learning languages then. I dislike that teenagers are wasting time learning a second, third, or fourth language, whey they could have done it more efficiently as toddlers. Teenagers are more into "meaningful learning" anyhow, and if teenagers didn't need to waste so much time on learning additional languages, they could use that time on learning other things, such as science. Time is precious.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Serpent on April 9th, 2018, 5:35 pm 

If you don't necessarily think something, you shouldn't include it in your doctrine. I was objecting precisely to those items on which you don't insist.
I have a whole plan of educational reform myself - but it doesn't properly belong here.
Take down the prison towers and give children time to enjoy life and pick up some practical skills, and I'll be fine with your system.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby BadgerJelly on April 10th, 2018, 3:04 am 

Zanthius -

I am so glad you posted on this forum. I have an interest in education and firmly believe that if people were able to access their innate drive to learn and explore the world would become a better place. People complain about pollution, economics, population problems, food and resources, etc., and they're all serious issues. For me the bets solution to all of these issues is "education."

How we can do anything with such knowledge and understanding is a daunting task. The question remains how to restructure education and help it reach those whom would benefit the most. No simple task and one that the government are directly interested in.

Bill Gates found that the most important thing is not the material being taught, not the syllabus or method of assessment, not the equipment or the facilities. What he found was that the most important factor was having teachers that cared about their job and had a passion for it.

In this respect the methodology is nothing without the effort to understand the wants and needs of the child and the family. Helping the family and knowing them will help the teacher get everyone onboard - sadly the reality is that parents don't like to be told how to raise their children (especially those that need the most help) and that those willing to do what they can have limited time resources due to work and simply putting food on the table.

I am sure you saw the program set up by a teacher from Newcastle school in the UK. He put the internet onto the streets in the poorest areas in India and installed a camera. What he found was that children are quite capable of teaching themselves without adult intervention.

Having lessons available to children to attend and optional homework would be the best idea - but not something that could be transitioned into anytime soon - Lord of the Flies may ensue! The emphasis on choice for children is important, yet there has to be structure in place.

I would also argue that math and science are not of interest to everyone. Some students may prefer to play music, dance or paint. There is much less emphasis put on art these days (so it seems) and it is precisely the one thing we humans do well and I cannot see we can replace human creativity with AI artists, although soon enough we may well be living in a world where the only productive function humans serve will be in creative expression - maybe I am thinking too far ahead here! hahaa!
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Zanthius on April 10th, 2018, 3:32 am 

Serpent » April 9th, 2018, 4:35 pm wrote:If you don't necessarily think something, you shouldn't include it in your doctrine. I was objecting precisely to those items on which you don't insist. .


We are all somewhat biased since we can only see the world from our own somewhat limited perspectives. I might have opinions that are too extreme, but they do not necessarily appear extreme from my perspective. This is why it is so important with negative feedback. Since you see the world from a slightly different perspective, it might be easier for you to see when/if I am too extreme.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Zanthius on April 10th, 2018, 12:55 pm 

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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Zanthius on April 12th, 2018, 4:21 am 

BadgerJelly » April 9th, 2018, 11:15 am wrote:What does intrigue me is you think that one kind of indoctrination is better than the other.


You mean like indoctrination of scientific literacy, indoctrination which makes children more aware of their cognitive biases, and indoctrination which makes children better at critical thinking?

BadgerJelly » April 9th, 2018, 11:15 am wrote:I would also argue that math and science are not of interest to everyone. Some students may prefer to play music, dance or paint.


You could also argue that reading and writing is not of interest to everyone. However, people that are incapable of reading and writing are at an enormous disadvantage compared to people that know how to read and write. In order for the members of a society to be able to communicate with each other, we need to speak the same language. Awareness of basic scientific terminology seems to be almost as important for people as the ability to read and write. In the future, it might be just as disadvantageous for people to be scientifically illiterate, as it is for people to be incapable of reading and writing today.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby BadgerJelly on April 12th, 2018, 5:08 am 

Zanthius -

The real world won't shift to suit what you think is best. Some people are simply not capable of critical thought to the same level as others - I would include scientists in this too.

I don't see much practical application to anything you say, although you do point out many interesting issues.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Zanthius on April 12th, 2018, 5:19 am 

BadgerJelly » April 12th, 2018, 4:08 am wrote: Some people are simply not capable of critical thought to the same level as others - I would include scientists in this too.


Sure, but there can be educational systems which reward kids for critical thinking, while there can be educational systems which punish kids for critical thinking. You cannot necessarily expect to see as much critical thinking in an educational system that punishes critical thinking as in an educational system that rewards critical thinking, even though people also are genetically predisposed to have different levels of critical thinking.
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby Zanthius on April 21st, 2018, 6:02 am 

I have written a bit more about the importance of having good pension plans:

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https://www.archania.org/governance/#Good_pension_plans_are_important_for_the_well-being_of_children
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Re: Request for negative feedback

Postby BadgerJelly on April 24th, 2018, 5:18 am 

Here's a four year old:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyhK9beGuQU

Here's a five year old (although not the best example of test!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrBp1Ojt5Z0

I cannot find the video of kids trying to copy the drawing of a triangle. Four year olds cannot do it. From memory I think most five year olds cannot either, but six year olds can manage to replicate a triangle?

I don't think it is reasonable (possible) to get kids under 6 to draw complex 3 dimensional diagrams of molecules. I would even go as far to say that it is impossible for most to do so (maybe all?)

And another example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0w59DGVknQ

Point being, you cannot change the developmental stages. Note for the last one what he said at the start. Once the kid knew the correct answer they give the correct answer - that doesn't mean they know why.
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