The Bible versus the American Constitution

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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby wolfhnd on October 4th, 2018, 8:20 pm 

If you assume the establishment isn't falling apart because of an outdated paradigm.
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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby bangstrom on October 4th, 2018, 11:04 pm 

bangstrom » October 4th, 2018, 6:28 pm wrote:
wolfhnd » October 4th, 2018, 12:40 pm wrote:"Well you know we all want to change the world"

"But if you go carrying pictures of (insert you favorite ideological prejudice)
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow


But if you go singing praises for Kim and Putin
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow.


I have been advised that my recent comment sounded like an attempt to “pigeon hole” Wolfhnd as a Trump supporter. That was not my intention but I admit my comment could likely be interpreted as such. I try to avoid any trace of that kind of two dimensional thinking in my own thoughts or writing but I am not always successful. So, sorry Wolfhnd.
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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby Lomax on October 6th, 2018, 12:28 pm 

hyksos » October 4th, 2018, 10:47 pm wrote:I found an 1802 letter written to Dodge, Robbins, and Nelson. It does mention "wall of separation" in it.

That is the one. Jefferson was writing to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut upon their persecution by the Congregationalists of Danbury, Connecticut (a perfect illustration of what Freud called the narcissism of small differences, by the way). Religious demagogues speak as if the First Amendment shields the irreligious from the Word of the Good Lord; in fact, it protects those religious demagogues from each other.
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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby BadgerJelly on October 11th, 2018, 3:36 am 

hyksos » October 2nd, 2018, 1:15 pm wrote:25 Questions that Christian Conservatives Cannot Answer

(1)
Did any democracies exist in the world prior to the birth of Jesus Christ of Nazareth? Where and when?


(2)
In the 1780s, England had a legislative body composed of 2 houses called a "PARLAIMENT". However, the oiriginal American Constitution from 1789 refers to a "SENATE". Where did the Founding Fathers get the word "SENATE" from?


(3)
How many times does the word "SENATE" appear in the Bible?


John Adams was present at the signing of the Declaration of Independence, and he was present in the room in Philadelphia during the Constitutional convention. He was the second president of the United States. Adams referred to the convention in Philadelphia as "this Areopagus, Council of Amphictyons."

(4)
What was the The Council of the Areopagus ? Does "Areopagus" appear in the Bible?

(5)
What was Amphictyony? Does the word "Amphictyony" appear anywhere in the Bible?

(6)
What is the difference between a REPUBLIC and a DEMOCRACY?

(7)
In 202 BC, what form of Government did the Romans have?


(8)
The in the 1780s England had a state-sponsored church called The Church of England. Did the American Founders want a parallel version of a state-sponsored church in America? Yes or no? How do we know this?

(9)
What is a "Congregationalist"?

(10)
Were any of the American Founders a Congregationalist? Who?

(11)
Did the American Founding Fathers want to have a religous test applied to anyone who holds public office? Yes or no? How do we know this?

(12)
Benjamin Franklin was a deist. What is a DEIST?

(13)
Name a specific difference in theological doctrine between a Deist and those of a protestant pastor?

(14)
Historians refer to a period of europe called the Enlightenment. What is the Enlightenment?

(15)
What does "trias politica" mean?

(16)
The American Federal Government is broken into three co-equal branches called the Legislative, Judicial, and Executive branches of government. Did this of "Separation of Powers" exist prior to the American Constitution? Who wrote it first?

(17)
Who is Charles de Montesquieu? Where was he born and where did he live?

(18)
Who is John Locke?

(19)
What did John Locke claim about the legal power of Kings?

(20)
What was the "French Revolution" and when did it happen?

(21)
What is the "Declaration of the Rights of the Man and Of the Citizen"? Who wrote it?

(22)
How did the French Revolutionaries treat the established Church in France?

(23)
Who is Charles Maurice de Talleyrand?

(24)
The British military invaded the United States from the Canadian border in 1812. What was the motivation behind this military campaign?

(25)
What other countries was England at war with at this time?


I’ll take the bait then.

1) “Democracy” in modern terms? None. If we’re to refer to ancient Greece (which I presume to be what is being implied?) then a great number of governmental systems were outlined terms that today have quite different meanings. Then there is the problem of an extremely limited “historical” record of human societies.

2) I’d imagine it was taken from some Roman/Greek in reference to how the Roman Empire was run - I wouldn’t be at all surprised if this term, like many others (such as “democracy” has taken on a slightly different meaning: hermeneutics.)

3) Absolutely no idea! I am assuming this means that “senate” never appears in the Bible? The question woudl then be does it appear in any commentary around trh time that the Bible was written and if not what term was used as a close approximation if any?

4) No idea.

5) The word does look vaguely familar, but many words do to me sometimes! :D I believe the “amphi-“ part means something like “audience” or “supporter”? I forget. I looked it up online some time ago in reference to “amphitheatre”.

6) The difference between Republic and Democracy? See answer (1).

7) Don’t know. I imagine it is a complex answer?

8) No idea. There are some things that came from the establishment of The Church of England that did lead to some benefits (or so it is argued.) I don’t believe they were completely intentional though and remain skeptical about them being even partly intentional - more likely people saw an opportunity and pounced.

9) Don’t know.

10) see above.

11) Don’t know. Sounds bizarre, but I imagine reciting part of biblical text may have been employed to show erudition if nothing else (especially in Latin.)

12) A deist is someone who likes to try out the latest diet :D Seriously, I am not sure how the term was used in that particular time or whether he was using it in such a manner? It means belief in some “First cause”, the “unmoving mover” and all that contrary jazz.

13) I don’t think that question makes much sense. Sorry :/

14) That is a complex question. Generally speaking it was a period of intellectual and scientific advancement due to technology and education in the aftermath of turbulence in Europe.

15) I’d have to guess? Obvious it literally means Three Politics. I would guess three facets of politics? I’d also guess some people try to apply the Catholic trinity to this (which is also a reasonably modern invention.)

16) Dunno. It appears my above guess seems to be correct though?

I’ll continue later and show my ignorance ...
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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby hyksos on October 11th, 2018, 6:34 pm 

BadgerJelly,

Kudos for attempting to answer the questions dry, without consulting google or wikipedia. That was very brave of you.

Having said that -- your answers raise huge questions for me. You are under no obligation to answer any of these, as they are personal. But I'm really wondering.

Do you live in the United States?

Is your native language English?

As a child did you complete school in the United States of America? If yes, public or private school?

How accurately does this description fit you? "I was born and raised in the USA and I have at (least) a high school diploma from the public school system."
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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby BadgerJelly on October 12th, 2018, 12:43 am 

Brave? I just think it’s better not to fool yourself into knowing things simply because you have access to a search engine. I am wary of pretentious types both internally and externally!

No.

Yes.

Obviously not.

50% I guess with the equivalent of “diploma.”

I’m also 40, so unlike my father Latin wasn’t on the school cirriculum for my generation.

Can I ask you what the point of all this is?
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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby BadgerJelly on October 12th, 2018, 1:03 am 

Anyway

17) French I think. Some political figure of some sort.

18) A Scotsman. Empiricist, not primarily a theorist although many people like to use his words in to support their ideologies (even to today!)

19) No idea, other than he believed in all men being “equal”. It wasn’t his primary interest in philosophy (see above.)

20) It was just that. My memory for dates is pretty poor! Basically it culminated in the idea of overthrowing the monarchy and the publics attempts to wrestle power away from the rulers of the country.

21) Don’t know who wrote it, not even sure if I’ve heard of it or merely something that sounds similar.

22) Don’t know. I would expect they weren’t massively impressed with them.

23) Never heard of him - unless I’m very badly mistaken?

24) Don’t know.

25) I imagine that list is quite a long one. Unless my memory is really bad I think that was the era of the Napoleonic Wars.
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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby BadgerJelly on October 12th, 2018, 1:09 am 

I still don’t see the point of these questions and why you claim “Christian Conservatives” cannot answer them? I would imagine many non-Christians such at myself cannot answer all of them either. What does this prove, if anything?
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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby Forest_Dump on October 12th, 2018, 9:30 am 

I have a handful of university degrees, do not follow any of the religions derived from the Middle East and read the odd bit of European history but doubt I could correctly answer many of the questions. So I too wonder what the point of the quiz is and what it has to do with us politics or conservative religion.
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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby Braininvat on October 12th, 2018, 12:36 pm 

The test strikes me as a test of whether you are my father-in-law or not. He was an American and a keen student of U.S. history. I think he would have gotten over 20 correct. I can do about 18 without checking a reference. 15 - 17 are also closely related, given that trias politica is the best-known form of separation of powers. I would question Montesqieu being the first one to lay it all out, given that John Calvin set out the basic idea a century or so earlier. Some of the questions seemed pointed in a way that was a bit confusing, but hopefully all will be explained.
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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby wolfhnd on October 12th, 2018, 2:25 pm 

A better question may be why did the French revolution fail while the American revolution was mostly a success when the French revolutionaries distanced themselves more from the "evil" influence of Christianity.

I have often argued that Rome influenced the form the U.S. government would take more than either Judeao/Christian or Greek philosophy. Still I see no reason to believe that even a bronze age, tribal, patriarchal tradition was worse than the alternative of no viable basis for social organization below the political process. In hindsight you can imagine better alternatives but that is cheating.

Manifest destiny and Divine inspiration are not uniquely American ideas. Nor is the relationship between religion and politics. I have often wondered if the Pharaohs actually believed they were gods. We will never know but what seems clear is the important role that relationship was to social stability. Nietzsche seems to be looking for an alternative to God but making rationality the alternative didn't work so well for the French revolutionaries.

I suspect there has always been a lot more atheists than it appears. Thoughtful people everywhere are likely to reject superstition. The rejection of religion however is unlikely to dispel tribal instincts. The list of individuals in the OP could be thought of as a tribe called conservatives what binds them together has little to do with religion.
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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby hyksos on October 12th, 2018, 11:12 pm 

Do you live in the United States?


As a child did you complete school in the United States of America?


(8)The in the 1780s England had a state-sponsored church called The Church of England. Did the American Founders want a parallel version of a state-sponsored church in America? Yes or no? How do we know this?
BadgerJelly » October 12th, 2018, 8:43 am wrote:No idea. There are some things that came from the establishment of The Church of England that did lead to some benefits (or so it is argued.) I don’t believe they were completely intentional though and remain skeptical about them being even partly intentional - more likely people saw an opportunity and pounced.

There answer is 'no'. Amendment 3. (1791) https://i.imgur.com/Goncq4H.png


(11) Did the American Founding Fathers want to have a religous test applied to anyone who holds public office? Yes or no? How do we know this?
BadgerJelly » October 12th, 2018, 8:43 am wrote:Don’t know. Sounds bizarre, but I imagine reciting part of biblical text may have been employed to show erudition if nothing else (especially in Latin.)

The answer is "no'. Article VI , paragraph 3 (1782) https://i.imgur.com/6ApjQ6z.png
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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby BadgerJelly on October 13th, 2018, 12:27 am 

Hyksos -

Any chance you’ll answer my singular question?
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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby Serpent on October 13th, 2018, 2:42 am 

wolfhnd » October 12th, 2018, 1:25 pm wrote:A better question may be why did the French revolution fail while the American revolution was mostly a success when the French revolutionaries distanced themselves more from the "evil" influence of Christianity.

For very different reasons, in very different circumstances. Neither had the least little thing to do with religion.
The French revolution didn't fail. It succeeded well enough to get rid of a whole generation of pretenders to superiority. It didn't prevent a new one. The men who gained immediate power had no frickin idea how to govern or organize or administer a nation's daily functions and were too paranoid to get their act together.
The American revolution wasn't a revolution at all; it was a colonial war of independence. It was unique in that the people who revolted were not a subject nation but estranged English - which gave them a huge advantage over colonies gained by conquest: an insight into the British mindset. Plus, England was busy trying to put out other fires and couldn't commit enough resources to win.

I have often argued that Rome influenced the form the U.S. government would take more than either Judeao/Christian or Greek philosophy.

Rome, certainly. But Greece, too. Educated men of the period would have been immersed in classics; much less so in Christian theology (which is not that useful in mundane political decisions) and not at all in Judeo -anything.
Still I see no reason to believe that even a bronze age, tribal, patriarchal tradition was worse than the alternative of no viable basis for social organization below the political process.

Oh, no fair! England was the parent-land; Magna Carta and all that counted for something and France had been a strong ally and a great source of philosophical and political thought. Maybe the Enlightenment and Machiavelli influenced a couple of the fathers, but they didn't say.
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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby hyksos on October 13th, 2018, 5:23 am 

BadgerJelly » October 13th, 2018, 8:27 am wrote:Hyksos -

Any chance you’ll answer my singular question?

Not all opinions are valid. Some opinions are better than others. Some opinions are more supported by fact than ideology. To have a valid opinion of a particular time in history, you must first exhibit a competency in the topic, and fluency in the facts , and some knowledge of surrounding events in other countries.

I have never in my life, had a conversation with a christian conservative in the United States who commands a mastery of a topic in history. I have never had a fluid conversation with them about history. Yet they form a rigid worldview based on their mythological misapprehension of history. I had at first realized they know absolutely nothing about the history of Russia directly prior to communism. (that actually got so bad, that I would post wildly false lies about that time in Russia, and they would not pick up on them. I felt like I was performing magic tricks on dogs. )

It turns out I was aiming too high. These people don't even know basic facts about the history of the United States. It was actually asking too much of them that even know what was going on in France at the time. In some cases, they don't even appear to be able to pass a 10th grade high school civics course.

Ben Shapiro is rapidly gaining a larger viewership. He is becoming an "internet star" right now. He is pandering to an audience with vast ignorance.
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Re: The Bible versus the American Constitution

Postby Serpent on October 13th, 2018, 10:15 am 

And Andrew Carnegie is huffing and muttering and shaking his cane at the idjits.
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