Polling

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Polling

Postby zetreque on October 22nd, 2018, 9:04 pm 

Should political polling be illegal? The main thing it seems to do is just tell rich people where to put their money into campaigning or targeting and manipulating people.
Or maybe just restricted because it probably is a good idea to survey people to find out how good of job you are doing once in office or what people want.
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Re: Poling

Postby wolfhnd on October 22nd, 2018, 9:32 pm 

We have enough laws :-)
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Re: Polling

Postby BadgerJelly on October 23rd, 2018, 5:59 am 

Should asking people their views be illegal? Sorry, I don’t see how that could be a good idea and even if it was how on earth would it be policed?
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Re: Polling

Postby Serpent on October 23rd, 2018, 11:28 am 

zetreque » October 22nd, 2018, 8:04 pm wrote:Should political polling be illegal? The main thing it seems to do is just tell rich people where to put their money into campaigning or targeting and manipulating people.

No, you can't put a stop to surveys, opinion polls, questionnaires of any kind on any subject.
Go to the other end of that sentence instead. Limit or curtail the cost of political campaigning, the amount of contributions and the money each candidate pours into each district. There used to be some controls over campaign financing - not enough, but some.
In fact, money shouldn't play any part in a democratic election, which, after all, is supposed to be predicated on the equality of voters. Now they all have bar-codes on their heads.
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Re: Polling

Postby wolfhnd on October 23rd, 2018, 12:52 pm 

Serpent » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:28 pm wrote:
zetreque » October 22nd, 2018, 8:04 pm wrote:Should political polling be illegal? The main thing it seems to do is just tell rich people where to put their money into campaigning or targeting and manipulating people.

No, you can't put a stop to surveys, opinion polls, questionnaires of any kind on any subject.
Go to the other end of that sentence instead. Limit or curtail the cost of political campaigning, the amount of contributions and the money each candidate pours into each district. There used to be some controls over campaign financing - not enough, but some.
In fact, money shouldn't play any part in a democratic election, which, after all, is supposed to be predicated on the equality of voters. Now they all have bar-codes on their heads.


Sounds good but the last U.S. presidential election proved that money is not as big a factor as competency. Trump manipulated the media into unending free access. There are many problems and few solutions other than a free and open access to social media. The current wave of censorship on the internet is the opposite of what is needed. If liberals could learn to meme it would be impossible for conservative propaganda to sway voters.
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Re: Polling

Postby Serpent on October 23rd, 2018, 2:47 pm 

wolfhnd » October 23rd, 2018, 11:52 am wrote:Sounds good but the last U.S. presidential election proved that money is not as big a factor as competency. Trump manipulated the media into unending free access.

Money is still a big factor - and it's a huge factor in candidate selection. Of course I think commercial media are manipulable by sensationalism and gimmick, too, but they also bow to big advertising money, even when the major stock-holders have no strong partisan leaning (!!) Remember that the Trump "base" had been well primed for this kind of rogue candidate by decades of local network (radio and television) propaganda. That has lots and lots of money behind it.
There are many problems and few solutions other than a free and open access to social media.

That's not enough, either. For one thing, social media give equal weight to fact and fiction, opinion and analysis, invective and exposition, gossip and news. Accurate independent reportage would be preferable.
The current wave of censorship on the internet is the opposite of what is needed. If liberals could learn to meme it would be impossible for conservative propaganda to sway voters.

If sleaze were evenly spread and used, it wouldn't matter who gets elected.
Voters should not rely on 5-second impressions and one-syllable buzzwords to inform them of the issues or convince them which leader is less likely to destroy their lives.
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Re: Polling

Postby wolfhnd on October 23rd, 2018, 2:57 pm 

How can you argue for democracy and at the same time suggest the average citizen can't navigate the pitfalls of free speech. Internet media takes away the advantages that go to the rich who have always controlled traditional media. Of course the printing press equalized the voice of Martin Luther enabling him to take on the Catholic Church and played an important role in other revolutions but television changed all that because of production costs. We don't want the internet to be monopolized by a few large corporations as TV and print has been.

Martin Luther was actually pretty crazy but the establishment needed reform. Perhaps Alex Jones is crazy too but it's a bad idea to persecute the paranoid it just confirms their message to the like minded. The liberal establishment should never have allowed the right to steal the free speech issue from them. It may be as simple as follow the money because of corporatism not capitalism.
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Re: Polling

Postby Serpent on October 23rd, 2018, 3:40 pm 

wolfhnd » October 23rd, 2018, 1:57 pm wrote:How can you argue for democracy and at the same time suggest the average citizen can't navigate the pitfalls of free speech.

Very easily. People with equal votes and opportunities can still be stupid and gullible. Even fairly intelligent people, if they have no solid education in civics (and therein lies the malaise of democracy), would be hard put to navigate the free speech available with modern technology: there is just too much of it - incredibly vast quantities of verbiage to peruse and evaluate. Simply nobody has that much time.
As a source of factual information, the internet is invaluable - if you know how to look for it.

Internet media takes away the advantages that go to the rich who have always controlled traditional media.

Yes, that's true, up to a point. Money and power can still institute more sites, with bigger, splashier headlines and graphics; can employ more sophisticated propagandists -- and that's before they enlist thousands of ghost posters or hack/ overload their opponents' server.

We don't want the internet to be monopolized by a few large corporations as TV and print has been.

We don't. But they still might.
The liberal establishment should never have allowed the right to steal the free speech issue from them.

Agreed. That was only one of their blunders - but it's a big one.
It may be as simple as follow the money because of corporatism not capitalism.

There is nothing simple about following the money anymore.
But it's still pretty simple to buy political candidates and public opinion.
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Re: Polling

Postby wolfhnd on October 23rd, 2018, 3:47 pm 

Serpent you know this thread proves that you and Ineed to get a life don't you :-) I assume you are retired or semi retired, do you feel guilty not finding something productive to do?
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Re: Polling

Postby Serpent on October 23rd, 2018, 6:34 pm 

wolfhnd » October 23rd, 2018, 2:47 pm wrote:Serpent you know this thread proves that you and Ineed to get a life don't you :-) I assume you are retired or semi retired, do you feel guilty not finding something productive to do?

Not in the least! I have at least three projects going at any given time - this upcoming one, I might even get paid for.
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Re: Polling

Postby zetreque on October 23rd, 2018, 6:51 pm 

Ok forget making it illegal or restricted but it still seems like it does nothing but benefit those who we do not want to be in office in the first place.

I looked up every person on the ballot (and in many cases looked them up before I looked at what party they were associated with) where I am at and will be voting sometime in the next couple days.

I have had 4 bad encounters this week with people campaigning and polling. One woman caused unnecessary noise outside my house that I had to confront. Another littered the street with fliers. And I have blocked two phone numbers in just the past couple days after already opting my phone number out of specifically political calls at the state registrar and am not even affiliated with the party that keeps contacting me.
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Re: Polling

Postby zetreque on October 23rd, 2018, 6:52 pm 

I may put off voting just because I am learning more about who NOT to vote for based on how much they harass me and my neighborhood.
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Re: Polling

Postby Serpent on October 23rd, 2018, 7:29 pm 

You certainly have a legitimate complaint. I'm not sue what's bothering you now is polling, so much as voter solicitation. You might cut the volunteers a little slack, this time around, for sheer desperation. But I do know what you mean: I keep getting emails and fliers I don't want, too, and the senders are deaf to "desist" pleas.

I can see merit in controlling the volume and style of contact with the public. Maybe no telephone calls, and no more than one home visit, at a reasonable hour - things like that. I don't know how the rule would be worded, exactly, or what kinds of survey/poll it would cover. Some valuable statistical information is collected by this means, by government agencies and research institutions. Not sure how to ensure that one's participation is voluntary.
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Re: Polling

Postby zetreque on October 23rd, 2018, 7:43 pm 

Serpent » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:29 pm wrote:You might cut the volunteers a little slack, this time around, for sheer desperation.


Desperation is no excuse for polluting or spreading bad stances on issues.

I'd say that polling pre-election is bad, polling after election is ok.
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Re: Polling

Postby wolfhnd on October 23rd, 2018, 8:46 pm 

zetreque » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:43 pm wrote:
Serpent » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:29 pm wrote:You might cut the volunteers a little slack, this time around, for sheer desperation.


Desperation is no excuse for polluting or spreading bad stances on issues.

I'd say that polling pre-election is bad, polling after election is ok.


We understand that polling can be more than just an annoyance and can be used as propaganda. It certainly isn't always reliable and even erroneous polls can effect turnout. It's pretty much a two edge sword. If I could think of a solutions to the problems you bring up I would share them. They are probably just something you will have to live with. The no call thing certainly isn't working at my house.
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Re: Polling

Postby Serpent on October 23rd, 2018, 9:38 pm 

I imagine there must be some way to reduce the annoyance, littering, disruption, etc. of election campaigning, but it's hard to see how, without infringing on fundamental rights and freedoms.
Unless, of course, the whole process is reformed.
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Re: Polling

Postby BadgerJelly on October 24th, 2018, 3:24 am 

It is part of the political culture in the US. Nothing will change overnight. I do imagine that the various social media resources will make such campaigning less important over the coming decades once the younger generations come through -that said it could have the opposite effect, where the novelty of seeing someone in person has stronger value.

One thing for certain, when I see news coverage of US campaigning it looks like a circus compared to the UK. It’s almost surreal.

Political parties hae to listen to the public to some degree and shift their position.
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Re: Polling

Postby -1- on October 24th, 2018, 4:15 am 

BadgerJelly » October 24th, 2018, 3:24 am wrote:Political parties hae to listen to the public to some degree and shift their position.

"In times of need for change, instead of changing offical's minds, officials themselves had better be changed." First woman Mayor of London, 1973. I was at the Central Library this morning, in the London room, and this was plastered on a billboard of a historical montage. We just had city elections, too.

Before anyone pipes up that London did not have its first female Mayor in 1973, relax: I live in London, but not in the one located in England.
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Re: Polling

Postby -1- on October 24th, 2018, 4:25 am 

BadgerJelly » October 24th, 2018, 3:24 am wrote:One thing for certain, when I see news coverage of US campaigning it looks like a circus compared to the UK. It’s almost surreal.


I concur. In the USA it's a very vibrant political atmosphere, almost year-round, every year. It's a form of entertainment, combining elements of sport viewing, gambling, religious affiliation, and TV shows.

It is a gamble because ahead of the voting you don't know if your party is a winner or a loser.

It is like a sport, as there are two teams competing, and there is a lot of screaming and parading around. Plus you try to buy the best players for your team to do the best job of getting the largest amount of votes.

It is like a religious conviction, because after you decide to be a Democrat or a Rapublicant when you turn 13, and reach age of majority, there is no going back -- you stay that way.

I actually don't know how many people live in the states, IF ANY, who are 1. not immigrants with voting privilege (naturalized citizens) AND they can be swayed to vote D or L. I mean,which American, true blue American, or not true blue American at that too, who would ever vote for something that he hadn't been all his or her life? And yet there are different outcomes possible and historically we have different outcomes at elections. This would be impossible without a hesitant portion of the population -- but who are they???

And it is like TV shows, or like the movies -- everyone wants to be in the movies, everyone wants to be in politics.
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Re: Polling

Postby -1- on October 24th, 2018, 4:48 am 

Serpent » October 23rd, 2018, 9:38 pm wrote:I imagine there must be some way to reduce the annoyance, littering, disruption, etc. of election campaigning, but it's hard to see how, without infringing on fundamental rights and freedoms.
Unless, of course, the whole process is reformed.

Draconian laws on littering must be introduced. Crucifixion, first offence. Second offence, five hundred dollars fine or ten hours of community service. Third offence, offender will be forced by gunpoint to pick up after himself.
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Re: Polling

Postby -1- on October 24th, 2018, 4:50 am 

zetreque » October 23rd, 2018, 6:52 pm wrote:I may put off voting just because I am learning more about who NOT to vote for based on how much they harass me and my neighborhood.

No, Z, please go out and do vote. I wish so. Go, exercise your constitutional right (even if that right contributes to upsetting your constitution).
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Re: Polling

Postby BadgerJelly on October 24th, 2018, 5:52 am 

-1-

Right now the trend is to bring down middle-aged white males with unprovable accusations of ages-long sexual harassment allegations. This is coming to as quick an end as quickly as it had caught on-- in a local municipal election in a town in my area, population about 80K people, two days ago a mayor who had been alleged to have had instances of sexual harassment in the past, got in with a landslide. He had been an incumbent, and in the last few weeks in office before the election he was somehow banned from going to work, due to the harassment charges. Now they can't stop him, he's had an overwhelming support by his area residents.

While I support justice and expect the guilty to pay for their crimes, I don't support this landslide of sexual harassment allegations, as it can destroy people's lives and careers in one fell swoop, with no checks and balances, once the damage has been done -- and truth or justice has nothing to do with allegation. Neither pro, nor con. I can stand up and say that Mr. X. Y.touched my "ussy", and Mr. X. Y. would be destroyed, and nobody would give it any thought that I don't even have a "ussy". Just like in "Some Like It Hot".


That is a VERY tangled and messy web of problems!

I think over all that the downfall of the few in positions of authority is a fair pay-off for the protection of the innocent victims out there. It’s a bloody tough situation and the media certainly magnifies the problem and polarizes the issue into a simple binary problem (which it most certainly isn’t!)

Victims of crimes must feel free to step forwards without fear of being punished for doing so. False accusations should also be punished though, so we’d have to have a very good judicial service in place to prevent people “buying” the best lawyers.

No matter what innocent peolpe will suffer. Only a rigid judicial system can lessen the problem.
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Re: Polling

Postby zetreque on October 24th, 2018, 9:58 am 

-1- » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:50 am wrote:
zetreque » October 23rd, 2018, 6:52 pm wrote:I may put off voting just because I am learning more about who NOT to vote for based on how much they harass me and my neighborhood.

No, Z, please go out and do vote. I wish so. Go, exercise your constitutional right (even if that right contributes to upsetting your constitution).


I meant putting it off for a few days in the early voting.
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Re: Polling

Postby zetreque on October 24th, 2018, 2:34 pm 

Voted today, and I put my "I voted" sticker on my front door.
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Re: Polling

Postby SciameriKen on October 24th, 2018, 4:39 pm 

zetreque » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:04 am wrote:Should political polling be illegal? The main thing it seems to do is just tell rich people where to put their money into campaigning or targeting and manipulating people.
Or maybe just restricted because it probably is a good idea to survey people to find out how good of job you are doing once in office or what people want.



Most likely the rich already have that information without the public polls. Just ask Cambridge analytica -- or the hundreds of companies just like them.

I don't think this stuff matters though it seem it does.. but seriously - the electorate lives for the now... how do you stop that?
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Re: Polling

Postby zetreque on October 28th, 2018, 5:31 pm 

I swear the Democrats are making the same exact mistake they made last time. They are completely ignoring and offending the rural areas. Our world is run by stupid and extremists.
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Re: Polling

Postby zetreque on October 28th, 2018, 6:36 pm 

Another psychological tactic I am seeing this election is to instill competition among people. We received these creepy letters in the mail showing our voting record of if we voted or not compared to "anonymous" neighbors having voted or not going back the past 5 elections. This is a psychological tactic that is becoming well known in the utilities and conservation world where they try to show people what their water and energy usage is compared to neighbors hoping to get them to compete to use less (basically shunning people for not being as efficient or spending more money than their neighbors).

The letters promised that they were going to call (harass) us in the future to find out why we did or didn't vote.
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Re: Polling

Postby zetreque on November 5th, 2018, 12:52 pm 

It has always been my thought that when the media comes out and says that "such and such party is leading" it pushes people in the opposing party to go vote.

Could the closeness of this race possibly be one thing contributing to the high numbers of midterm voter turnout? When people know that it's a close vote, they are more likely to vote because they know their vote matters. When the polls teeter totter between who is winning, more people go out and vote for their underdog.

This is another reason I don't believe in polling during early vote and before the election. The media can't say who is in the lead thanks to the larger percentage of non-partisan voter makeup or as they often say they don't know who people are voting for since that is not public record. One could even blame this on the reason Hillary Clinton lost. People were so confident she was going to win from polling that perhaps people stayed on the sidelines.

Instead, it should just be broadcast that it's an election and we don't know who is going to win. Instead of wasting newspaper print telling us predictions, they should be talking about the issues and where the candidates stand on the issues. I sure hope more and more people switch to being registered under any party other than the dems or reps to give more uncertainty. The problem is, then they can't vote in the primaries for those parties. I don't know about all states, but I think you can change your party after you vote in the primaries but few people make the effort to do that.
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Re: Polling

Postby Braininvat on November 5th, 2018, 1:08 pm 

If you're suggesting that polling, when it's close/dead heat territory, motivates people to vote, I would agree. This being a democracy, that kind of motivation would seem like a good thing. Voter turnout in the US has long been lower than other developed countries, and that's nothing to be proud of. The question I have is: does a close polling only motivate strongly partisan voters who already had their pick in mind months before? There are a lot of "Undecideds" in some races, who may or may not be motivated to finally pick somebody, by a variety of factors. It does seem possible some of them are motivated by a very close race simply because they feel that their individual vote will count more. Conversely, a Democrat in some parts of Nebraska may often feel like "why even bother," knowing how dominated their district is by Republicans. I guess I lean to the idea that close races should be made known to the electorate as such, i.e. by means of polls, because it encourages more people to vote and (hopefully) think about their big issues.

That's what is happening in Arizona, in the Senate race between conservative McSally and Democrat Sinema. Normally, McSally would have it in the bag in a very red state, but there are enough suburban moderates and minorities who have been repelled by the Trump administration that it's now looking very close. And I'm real glad that those moderates are feeling more motivated to get to the polling stations.
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Re: Polling

Postby zetreque on November 5th, 2018, 1:10 pm 

I forgot to say that I think the best thing you can do for your party is to keep your mouth shut about who you are voting for in situations where it might catalyze the opposing party to vote. ;)
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