Turkish Delight

Reopened October 2019 - includes archived threads from pre-2019

Turkish Delight

Postby toucana on October 10th, 2019, 3:45 am 

There is a history of some ten months standing behind president Trump’s most recent decision to throw our Kurdish allies under the bus, and to allow the special forces of president Erdogan’s Turkish army to massacre them all.

http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=34912

You will need to delve into the locked annexe of read-only forbidden topics to find out what we wrote about it at the time though, because the moderators here deleted the article from the forum news-feed because it was deemed to be too ‘political’ at the time.

To be fair to Donald Trump he never made any secret of his intentions. Right from the start of his presidency he made it clear that he regarded money spent on maintaining US soldiers *anywhere* in the middle east as money wasted. His preferred tactic was to announce that he had already ‘won’ - regardless of the military realities on the ground - to withdraw all the troops, and to then re-route the money saved into his ample back-pocket, or into one of his megalomaniac vanity projects like the border wall. (The one that Mexico was supposed to be paying for - if you can remember back that far).

The only real novelty on offer in the current scenario is the unusual apologia offered by Trump for his actions yesterday.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/09/politics/turkey-syria-us-anger-ramifications/index.html

Apparently the Kurds don’t deserve any military assistance or support from the USA because they didn’t assist the allies during WWII, and didn’t participate in the Normandy landings in June 1944.

This imaginative line of reasoning could usefully be extended in many other directions. The Kurds quite shamefully didn’t participate in the Vietnam war either. They stayed well away from the DMZ, just like all those other pathetic draft-dodgers and cowards who stayed at home nursing their imaginary bone-spurs.
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Re: Turkish Delight

Postby TheVat on October 10th, 2019, 11:41 am 

First thought crossing my mind, reading 45's rationale was "weren't the Kurds dealing with having been scattered and oppressed after WW1, then dealing with genocide during WW2??"

Kurt Eichenwald really nailed it, back in 2016. (scroll down to near the end of article, where he discusses Trump and Turkey)

https://www.newsweek.com/2016/09/23/don ... 98081.html
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Re: Turkish Delight

Postby TheVat on October 11th, 2019, 1:12 pm 

(sidebar regarding the reopening of the General News thread, and administrative PERL script problems, moved to the Feedback forum)

Welcome back to General News.
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Re: Turkish Delight

Postby charon on October 12th, 2019, 1:16 am 

From Wiki:

'During World War Two, the Kurds formed 10 companies in the Iraq Levies that the British had recruited in Iraq. Kurds supported the British in the defeating the pro-Nazi 1941 Iraqi coup d'état.[79] Twenty-five percent of the Iraq Levies' 1st Parachute Company was Kurdish. The Parachute Company was attached to the Royal Marine Commando and was active in Albania, Italy, Greece, and Cyprus.

Despite the fact they were a tiny minority in the Soviet Union, Kurds played a significant role in the Soviet war effort. They participated in the Soviet occupation of northern Iraq in 1941, creating the Persian Corridor, a vital supply line for the USSR. On 1 October 1941, Samand Siabandov was awarded the honour Hero of the Soviet Union. Kurds served at Smolensk, Sevastopol, Leningrad, and Stalingrad. Kurds took part in the partisan movement behind German lines. Karaseva received both the Hero of the Soviet Union medal and the medal Partisan of the Fatherland War (First Degree) for organising partisans to fight against the Germans in Volhynia Oblast in Ukraine. Kurds took part in the advance into Hungary and the invasion of Manchuria.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... rld_War_II


They fought with the Allies. The US didn't enter the war till 1941 following Pearl Harbour. For the first two years of the war they decided to be neutral.

As far as I know, the US didn't ask the Kurds to help them and the Kurds at no point refused to help the US.

Quite what Trump's point is I don't know. But it's what we've come to expect from this amoral, self-serving regime. It's been mired in corruption and wrong-doing from the start and shows no sign of slowing up.

Actually, the whole world seems to be going through a brazenly amoral phase. Boris Johnson is Trump-like, flouting any rule he thinks fit, so it's not just the US. What Putin is up to with his sparkly new weapons, god knows. Perhaps he thinks the Martians are coming.
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Re: Turkish Delight

Postby Serpent on October 12th, 2019, 10:35 am 

This treatment of Kurds goes back before WWII - and is hardly restricted to the US.
https://theintercept.com/2019/10/07/kur ... -betrayal/
They've been a handy international football for a century - to the western powers.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29702440
Before that, the armies of various rampaging armies largely ignored them, as just another Mesopotamian tribe of no conquest significance: just kill the ones that get in the way, recruit the able fighters and roll over the rest. This is the standard fate of small populations living between empires: they're used, bartered, deceived and abandoned.
Why should anything change now?
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Re: Turkish Delight

Postby charon on October 12th, 2019, 2:04 pm 

Why should anything change now?


Ask the Kurds!
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Re: Turkish Delight

Postby Serpent on October 12th, 2019, 2:51 pm 

charon wrote:
Why should anything change now?


Ask the Kurds!


They don't signify - none of the spear-carriers on the world stage signify.
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Re: Turkish Delight

Postby toucana on October 13th, 2019, 6:29 pm 

Image

On Saturday, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a UK-based organization which reports on the war, said Turkey-backed groups had killed nine civilians, including Hervin Khalaf, secretary general of the Future Syria Party. “We have seen reports of the killing of (Hervin) Khalaf....as well as several captured SDF fighters, the latter having been apparently shot while in the hands of Turkish Supported Armed Syrian Opposition elements,” a State Department spokesman said, referring to Turkey-backed rebels.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/state-department-says-killing-of-hervin-khalaf-extremely-troubling_n_5da362f8e4b02c9da04c6288

Turkish state-backed media hails a “successful operation” to “neutralize” an unarmed 35-year old woman working to unite Arabs, Christians, and Kurds in NE Syria. Ms. Hevrin Khalef was reportedly dragged from a vehicle and shot to death.

https://twitter.com/brett_mcgurk/status/1183112864908894208
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Re: Turkish Delight

Postby toucana on October 16th, 2019, 9:00 am 

Rather like Cthulu arising from the depths once more, the intertwined stories of Reza Zarrab and Fethullah Gülen have resurfaced. This time in connection with Rudi Giuliani the personal lawyer of president Trump.

https://www.businessinsider.com/rudy-giuliani-pushed-trump-to-hand-fethullah-gulen-turkey-erdogan-2019-10?r=US&IR=T

There is a side-bar here on SPCF that touched on this story almost a year ago.
http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=33760&p=330481&hilit=Zarrab#p330481

To recap:
- Reza Zarrab is an Iranian/Turkish gold dealer with four different nationalities who played a leading role in helping Iran subvert international sanctions in a gold for oil arrangement. He was arrested in USA in 2017 and became a co-operating witness in a major money laundering trial against a leading executive of the Turkish Halk Bank. Zarrab memorably went missing from his own trial appearance in 2017 because he had been whisked away by the FBI who wanted to talk about his role in the other half of this tale.

- Fethullah Gülen is an exiled Turkish cleric and leader of the islamist Hizmet movement living in Pennsylvania USA, who is regarded by President Erdogan of Turkey as the greatest living threat to his own authority as president. President Erdogan was very nearly overthrown by a military coup d’etat in Turkey in July 2016 that was widely believed to have been inspired by supporters of Gülen.

In January 2017 Michael Flynn was the designated US National Security Adviser of the incoming Trump administration. Flynn was also working as an undisclosed agent of Russia, Denmark and Turkey as well. Flynn accepted a $15m bribe from the Turkish government to set up an illegal abduction and covert rendition operation to kidnap and transport Fethullah Gülen from USA back to Turkey. The plot failed partly because Flynn discussed the plan in front of the acting transition director James Woolsey of the CIA who promptly resigned and blew the whistle on it.

President Erdogan of Turkey has applied non-stop pressure on the US government and president Trump ever since, and he has never given up trying to persuade the US to extradite Gülen back to a certain death in Turkey.

In 2017 it was reported that Rudi Giuliani tried to persuade Rex Tillerson (then secretary of State) into pressurising the DOJ into dropping the federal prosecution of gold trader Reza Zarrab. Meanwhile president Trump began canvassing the idea of handing Fethullah Gülen over to Turkey - (much to the horror and disbelief of State department staff). Tillerson refused to have anything to do with such schemes and was subsequently dismissed.

In 2017 Rudi Giuliani was acting as legal counsel for Rena Zarrab who was not only a cooperating witness in the money laundering trial of the Turkish Halk Bank, but had also been a Turkish intermediary in offering the $15m bribe to Michael Flynn. Giuliani’s conduct in that trial was so extraordinary that he was censured by the trial judge.

The latest revelations disclose that Rudi Giulani carried on the lobbying campaign to extradite Gülen back to Turkey in such a relentless fashion that WH officials became convinced that Giuliani, like Flynn before him, was acting as a undeclared paid agent of Turkey, and was doing so in violation of FARA (foreign agent registration act).

Trump's advisers were staunchly opposed to handing Gülen over to Erdogan, but Washington Post reported that the president was open to the suggestion and asked why he couldn't give Gülen over to Turkey and Erdogan, whom he referred to as "my friend."

It remains to be seen quite how all of this fits into the broader picture of Trump’s latest debacle vis-a-vis his disastrous phone call with president Erdogan of Turkey, and the abrupt recent American troop withdrawal in northern Syria.
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Re: Turkish Delight

Postby toucana on October 17th, 2019, 2:37 am 

A copy in full of president Trump's letter to president Erdogan of Turkey, sent on October 9.

Image

Apparently both MSNBC and Fox News had to check twice with the WH to make sure this didn't come from a parody account. (It didn't)
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Re: Turkish Delight

Postby toucana on October 17th, 2019, 10:12 am 

According to Turkish journalists citing unnamed sources close to the government in Ankara, Mr Erdogan read the letter and launched the operation shortly thereafter at 4pm local time on 9 November.

“Erdogan rejected the offer of mediation and the letter was thrown into the trash,” wrote journalist Ahmet Hakan, who maintains strong official contacts with Ankara and writes for the pro-government paper Hürriyet, on Twitter. “The clearest answer to this letter is the one on 9 October at 16:00. This answer is the Operation Peace Spring.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/trump-letter-syria-invasion-turkey-war-erdogan-trash-kurds-latest-a9159771.html
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Re: Turkish Delight

Postby toucana on October 18th, 2019, 8:55 am 

Given that president Trump telegraphed his intentions to withdraw all American forces from Syria some 11 months ago on 24th November 2018, you might reasonably wonder why he waited until 7th October 2019 to pick up the phone, and give president Erdogan of Turkey the green light to send in his forces ?

Some critics are suggesting that the answer might be that 7th October happens to be the birthday of Trump's best friend and mentor, Vladimir Putin, the current president of Russia. (He was born on 7th October 1952).

Quite some birthday present.
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Re: Turkish Delight

Postby hyksos on October 19th, 2019, 1:18 am 

The method of blaming everything bad in the world on Donald Trump is really picking up momentum here. The seizing of every opportunity to smear and demonize Trump ratchets up to a near-religious fervor. There is no room left for facts in the smoke and fire.
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Re: Turkish Delight

Postby toucana on October 19th, 2019, 2:33 am 

Would you like to supply a single concrete example of how president Trump has been 'smeared' or otherwise misrepresented in items posted within this thread ?

Every single claim of any substance is documented by multiple and easily checkable factual press reports and reasoned arguments from multiple sources

Exactly which exculpatory 'facts' have been overlooked so far please ?
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