Return To Innocence.

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Return To Innocence.

Postby MrMikeludo on August 15th, 2017, 6:46 pm 

Geez guys, what am I gonna tell Betty and Veronica?

Maybe I'll tell them this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRHjK-PTc98&t=865s
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby BadgerJelly on August 15th, 2017, 11:00 pm 

Mik -

This is just silly.

The problem is we don't understand what you're talking about and you're doing a bad job of listening to us saying WE DON'T UNDERSTAND.

Seemingly random quotes don't help. Your videos don't help. Maybe we are incapable of understanding what you experience and this must be very frustrating for you.

The reason people spoke to you in 2011 is because that thread is written much better and is presented in reasonably plain English. Your stuff lately, for me, seems to flit back and forth, toy with the reader (in a rather psychopathic way, ironically) and present a kind of self-indulgent joke only you are privy to.

I came to this forum looking for the means to communicate something too. I have a degree of "mania" too. If I try and explain to people here I know how people would generally react. People are dismissive to big claims when the person they are talking to is a stranger. Sadly the truth is you'll have to prove yourself and recover the damage you've possibly made to how people view you.

An example of how to proceed would be to go in depth on what Leonardo says. I and, I believe, many others would be VERY interested to see references to Leonardo's words and where you've sourced such things. He is obviously an important figure in human history.

As for Biv and Eco, it is their job and they chose to do it. I've been in the position here where mods have been talking complete rubbish to me and ganging up on me rather than reading what I write at face value. The truth is this forum is mostly for throwing around a few ideas with little want to go into depth in all but a few select topics (which mods and members are familiar with).

I am interested. I am not really interested in 90% of what you post because it is repetition only. You seem to struggle to come at the topic from another direction. Look at your posts and you'll see yourself saying the same thing over and over across the 3-4 threads you've started. This is why I said take a breather. It makes sense to forget about this forum for a few days then try again. This is another reason I am interested in this because I want to communicate with you, and I am interested in different minds rather than the same old stuffy business most people churn out.

Right or wrong as you are I don't care. By trying to communicate I learn something (negatively or positively).

Two things I don't understand are why Eco and Biv are engaging with you if they are not interested, they do seem to be annoyed. If that is the case it makes sense to step aside and let us talk because when they intervened it seemed like your posts got more obtuse and messier meaning out to poke fun at them rather than continue to try and communicate. The other thing is I called you a "dumb ****" and received no warning from the mods. This shows bias in my favour which doesn't help. I was actually hoping they would've publically warned me for such an insult and made you feel at least partially part of the forum. People make mistakes. I do, you do and others do. The psychopath makes the mistake and just covers them up with more lies to protect their position and further their manipulation.

note : No threads get "deleted" only locked. And I honestly think you'll be banned too because you want to be banned then you've justified your prediction. It does seem like an incredibly petty thing to do, but hey! Your only human too.
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby MrMikeludo on August 16th, 2017, 2:18 am 

BadgerJelly » August 15th, 2017, 11:00 pm wrote:Mik -

This is just silly.

The problem is we don't understand what you're talking about and you're doing a bad job of listening to us saying WE DON'T UNDERSTAND.

Seemingly random quotes don't help. Your videos don't help. Maybe we are incapable of understanding what you experience and this must be very frustrating for you.

The reason people spoke to you in 2011 is because that thread is written much better and is presented in reasonably plain English. Your stuff lately, for me, seems to flit back and forth, toy with the reader (in a rather psychopathic way, ironically) and present a kind of self-indulgent joke only you are privy to.

I came to this forum looking for the means to communicate something too. I have a degree of "mania" too. If I try and explain to people here I know how people would generally react. People are dismissive to big claims when the person they are talking to is a stranger. Sadly the truth is you'll have to prove yourself and recover the damage you've possibly made to how people view you.

An example of how to proceed would be to go in depth on what Leonardo says. I and, I believe, many others would be VERY interested to see references to Leonardo's words and where you've sourced such things. He is obviously an important figure in human history.

As for Biv and Eco, it is their job and they chose to do it. I've been in the position here where mods have been talking complete rubbish to me and ganging up on me rather than reading what I write at face value. The truth is this forum is mostly for throwing around a few ideas with little want to go into depth in all but a few select topics (which mods and members are familiar with).

I am interested. I am not really interested in 90% of what you post because it is repetition only. You seem to struggle to come at the topic from another direction. Look at your posts and you'll see yourself saying the same thing over and over across the 3-4 threads you've started. This is why I said take a breather. It makes sense to forget about this forum for a few days then try again. This is another reason I am interested in this because I want to communicate with you, and I am interested in different minds rather than the same old stuffy business most people churn out.

Right or wrong as you are I don't care. By trying to communicate I learn something (negatively or positively).

Two things I don't understand are why Eco and Biv are engaging with you if they are not interested, they do seem to be annoyed. If that is the case it makes sense to step aside and let us talk because when they intervened it seemed like your posts got more obtuse and messier meaning out to poke fun at them rather than continue to try and communicate. The other thing is I called you a "dumb ****" and received no warning from the mods. This shows bias in my favour which doesn't help. I was actually hoping they would've publically warned me for such an insult and made you feel at least partially part of the forum. People make mistakes. I do, you do and others do. The psychopath makes the mistake and just covers them up with more lies to protect their position and further their manipulation.

note : No threads get "deleted" only locked. And I honestly think you'll be banned too because you want to be banned then you've justified your prediction. It does seem like an incredibly petty thing to do, but hey! Your only human too.


BadgerJelly:

As I predicted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_y3_36u6vs

And so:

“Whatever town or village you go into, ask for someone trustworthy and stay with him until you leave. As you enter his home, salute it, and if the house deserves it, let your peace descend upon it; if it does not, let your peace come back to you. And if anyone does not welcome you or listen to what you have to say, as you walk out of the house or town, shake the dust from your feet. I tell you solemnly, on the day of judgment, it will not go as hard with the land of Sodom and Gomorrah as with that town. Remember, I am sending you out like sheep among wolves; so be as cunning as serpents and yet as harmless as doves.” Matthew 10:11-16

Goodbye, BadgerJelly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qbLSHOTihs
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby BadgerJelly on August 16th, 2017, 2:42 am 

Serendipity ...

Just reading Wittgenstein and there is something here you'd perhaps find interesting. I am still attempting to pull you away from your task here and just getting you to engage elsewhere then come back to your over all purpose. Anyway ...

From Logical Investigations (luckily easy to jump into this book at any juncture because it is very much written as a collection of his musings loosely connected as a part of a whole):

522. If we compare a proposition to a picture we must consider whether we are comparing it to a portrait (a historical representation) or to a genre-picture. And both comparisons make sense.
When I look at a genre-picture, it 'tells' me something, even though I don't believe (imagine) for a moment that the people I see in it really exist, or that there have really been people in that situation. For suppose I ask, "What does it tell me, then?"

523. "A picture tells me itself" is what I'd like t say. That is, its telling me something consists in its own structure, in its own forms and colours. (What would it mean to say "A musical theme tells me itself"?)

524. Don't take it as a matter of course, but as a remarkable fact, that pictures and fictitious narratives give us pleasure, absorb us.
("Don't take it as a matter of course" - that means: puzzle over this, as you do over some other things which disturb you. Then what is problematic will disappear, by your accepting the one fact as you do the other.)
((The transition from obvious nonsense to something which is unobvious nonsense.))

525. "After he had said this, he left her as he did the day before." - Do I understand this sentence? Do I understand it just as I would if I heard it in the course of a report? If it stood alone, [143] I'd say I don't know what it's about. But all the same, I'd know how this sentence might perhaps be used; I could even invent a context for it.
(A multitude of familiar paths lead off from these words in all directions.)

526. What does it mean to understand a picture, a drawing? Here too there is understanding and not understanding. And here too these expressions may mean various kinds of things. The picture is, say, a still-life; but I don't understand one part of it: I cannot see solid objects but I am familiar with them (they look like implements, but I don't know their use). - Perhaps, however, I know the objects, but, in another sense, do not understand the way they are arranged.

527. Understanding the theme in language is much more akin to understanding a theme in music than one may think. What I mean is that understanding a spoken sentence is closer than one thinks to what is ordinarily called understanding a musical theme. Why is just this the pattern of variation in intensity and tempo? One would like to say: "Because I know what it means." But what does it mean? I'd not be able to say. As an "explanation", I could compare it with something else which had the same rhythm (I mean the same pattern). (One says, Don't you see, this is as if a conclusion were being drawn" or "This is, as it were, a parenthesis", and so on. How does one justify such comparisons? - There are very different kinds of justification here.)


There is only a loose connection to what you are saying here I feel? I do feel that you are at least toying with some kind of view that would look upon the works of Leonardo as a "language". I am very happy to take this onboard as such.

Anyway, this also struck me in reference to "expression" and works of art in general:

544. When longing makes me exclaim "Oh, if only he'd come!", the feeling gives the words 'meaning'. But does it give the individual words meanings?
But here one could also say that the feeling gave the words truth. And now you see how the concepts here shade into one another. (This recalls the question: what is the sense of a mathematical proposition?)

545. But when one says "I hope he'll come" - doesn't the feeling give the word "hope" its meaning? (And what about the sentence "I no longer hope he'll come"?) The feeling does perhaps give the word "hope" its special ring; that is, it is expressed in that ring. - If the feeling gives the word its meaning, then here "meaning" amounts to: that which matters. But why is the feeling what matters?
Is hope a feeling? (Characteristic marks.)


note: All emphasis in italics are from my printed copy "Philosophical Investigations", Ludwig Wittgenstein, German and English text translation by Anscombe, Hacker and Schulte, Revised 4th edition by P.M.S. Hacker and Joachim Schulte (Wiley-Blackwell).
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby BadgerJelly on August 16th, 2017, 2:51 am 

Goodbye? Where you going?

Any comment on my post (was typing it out as you posted)?

Like I said above your "proof" is not really something I understand and I feel that is the issue with other people too. There are some interesting things it brings to mind though because I am interested in the general "positive" "negative" use of prepositions (grammatical not philosophical/mathematical) in reference to music. We think of up as "good" and down as "bad", yet depth as "good" and shallowness as "bad". These things are also present in music for sure the rise and tempo and tone is most certainly "uplifting" in music.
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby Eclogite on August 16th, 2017, 3:43 am 

BadgerJelly » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:00 am wrote:As for Biv and Eco, it is their job and they chose to do it.
My interactions with any member are as just another member. If I am wearing my mod hat I shall make it clear. Indeed, I was inclined to censure myself for a couple of posts in responding to MrMikeLudo, because I had - arguably - been disrespectful. I'll be disrespectful again.

MrMikeLudo, you may not think you are talking unmitigated, disjointed, infantile crap, but that is how it comes across. I won't be shutting you down, because I am too involved in trying to have an intelligent discussion with you, but I am amazed that none of my fellow mods have chosen not to show you the door, for at least a cooling off period. Now, as previously requested, without the use of videos, or external links, but by means of reasoned, structured argument, what the **** are you talking about?
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby BadgerJelly on August 16th, 2017, 4:12 am 

Mik -

Also understand that if the previous mods had been on this site you'd almost certainly have been banned a week ago. So harking back to those days doesn't do justice to the current mods (arrogant bastards that they may seem from time to time it is often a reflection of your own obstinance against authority - I am speaking for my own position here mainly :P)

Eco -

It is the search for common ground that interests me a great deal here and not simply thee subject matter of "Art" in general. I also enjoy the challenge.

It also takes a certain personality, or reason, to be a mod. It makes me curious as to the amount of truth in what you say ... anyway, that is a topic for another thread and would be an interesting things to hear about from moderators. I know no matter how hard I may try I will always view the "moderator" differently than the causal member who posts. Is this justified or not? Obviously to me I cannot help but make it an issue in my general judgements. I think we are all full of a great number of hypocritical positions because we are still pursuing understanding in one form or another (if you get my gist! Meaning if I was to meet someone in my position I would be scathing of them even though they exihibited my own own views. Blind hypocracy I think you'd call it? - anyway, for the "psycho-babble" threads of this forum another day! :D)
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby Braininvat on August 16th, 2017, 9:49 am 

Badger did mention a couple matters of SPCF moderation I should reply to.

1. The brief exchange of flames, where Badger called MM an epithet, were removed. So I wouldn't say that name calling was supported or tolerated. I did not issue any warning, because it seemed to me that both parties played a role in the breakdown of civility.

2. Threads have the option of being either locked, or moved to a "forum garbage" bin. It's not deleted there, and can be restored to a forum, at the moderator's discretion. Pretty unusual, though.

3. Another of the "Art is Evil" threads was moved to Odds and Ends, in case anyone is looking for it. Meandering threads that don't quite meet SPCF guidelines are sometimes moved there, where more latitude is given. New posts there don't show up in the New Posts list, so you have to go there and check for further activity. This is also the case with the Religion forum.

Finally, I don't speak as an admin or moderator when I ask for coherence and clarity in a post, and having it focus on a single idea which is clearly explained iin the first paragraph, in the author's own words. Avoid tangents about your upbringing, your family, your job, your religious faith, people at other forums, your neurological superpowers, or what a martyr you are. That approach only gets you ignored, and so is very counterproductive to any real discussion.

Finally, learn to accept that many people may disagree with any thesis expressed in extreme terms, e.g. modern art, and the critics who support it, are minions of Satan. Please understand that the past experience of SPCF members is that such theories are often the product of someone who is mentally ill. It doesn't necessarily mean you are, or that an idea from you is without merit. It just means that you are making an extraordinary claim about reality, and that will require extraordinary evidence and care in how you present it.
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby BadgerJelly on August 16th, 2017, 9:53 am 

And we all er ... I still keep spelling hypocrisy "-acy" :( haha!
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby MrMikeludo on August 16th, 2017, 11:21 am 

Eclogite » August 16th, 2017, 3:43 am wrote:
BadgerJelly » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:00 am wrote:As for Biv and Eco, it is their job and they chose to do it.
My interactions with any member are as just another member. If I am wearing my mod hat I shall make it clear. Indeed, I was inclined to censure myself for a couple of posts in responding to MrMikeLudo, because I had - arguably - been disrespectful. I'll be disrespectful again.

MrMikeLudo, you may not think you are talking unmitigated, disjointed, infantile crap, but that is how it comes across. I won't be shutting you down, because I am too involved in trying to have an intelligent discussion with you, but I am amazed that none of my fellow mods have chosen not to show you the door, for at least a cooling off period. Now, as previously requested, without the use of videos, or external links, but by means of reasoned, structured argument, what the **** are you talking about?


I'm not sure I understand the question.

I was here in 2011, and got to this point:

“Yes. What Positor said. Time to move on to the mathematical formulas and proofs you have produced. Graphs would be great, too.”

Or, I tried to explain the “mathematical language,” which defines “pictorial syntax,” and/or a “visual musical equivalent,” and/or the “pictorial equivalent of Einstein's relativity,” and/or a “pictorial equivalent of the fourth dimension,” and, after trying to “communicate it two dimensionally,” realized that it is impossible, which I did already know actually.

So all along I knew it would require “demonstrations,” because the “math” IS “four dimensional,” and EXTRAORDINARLY complicated, I knew that.

So I was “asked to provide graphs and demonstrations,” which is EXACTLY what I did.

So, where's the problem?

HOWEVER, I also pointed out – to “Braininvat,” that I knew that Pablo Picasso IS “Pablo Picasso” ONLY because the art world “LIED” and told the world that “Pablo Picasso pictorially represented the fourth dimension,” ERGO “Pablo Picasso is a genius,” and – ERGO, “earned” THIS:

“Why Picasso is the apex of art As another of the artist's works is sold for a stratospheric sum, the world is merely catching up with his originality and genius - Picasso is the greatest modern artist. The market says so, and the British Museum agrees. This week a Picasso was sold at Sotheby's for £28.5m...” Jonathan Jones

Or worth hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars, and – again, supposedly because “Picasso Pictorially represented the fourth dimension.”

Well, that is a “LIE,” as a matter of fact, but, the lie is sustained because the FOURTH DIMENSION IS COMPLICATED, of course.

So, I told Braininvat, that I “was regularly manipulated by the the 'art' community on other threads,” and which did, then, “enable the moderators to kick me off,” and of newspapers such as: Guardian U.K., and New York Times, and, so, I asked this of Braininvat:

“So, my only question, is:”Do YOU actually 'own' any Picassos, as well?'

So, anyways, I DO need to get some work done, and it was just as well.
And too, I don't know if I will be posting any more posts in this particular forum, because – as I PLAINLY asked of you:

'IF YOU DON'T 'WANT' ME HERE, please let me know – NOW,' but, apparently, you chose to ignore that common-sensical appeal to courtesy, so, I am no sure if I will be posting any more posts on this forum - I have videos to make:)”

Now, I DO fully understand exactly WHY I get kicked off of those sites, because the same people that own those sites, also – simultaneously, own all Picassos and Modern art, ergo, my understandings create a conflict of interest for them, because they are only concerned with maintaining the con, and the generating of BILLIONS of dollars, ALL illicitly, of course.

NOW, this morning I had a conversation with an artist at the flea market where I sell every week, about the art world and Picasso, and told her that “Picasso was the biggest con in the history of the world,” and she said:”How so?”

So, this is what I said to her:”Unbeknownst to the world human beings can experience what we can call a regression back to point time zero, and become only capable of functioning in manner that a young child can only function. And the people that usually experience this phenomenon, are the aristocracy. The reason is, that a human being's three dimensional mind must be programmed through everything that it is exposed to, and the aristocracy are always the first to live an abstracted, two dimensional, existence, so, therefore, they are always the first to experience the regression back to point time zero, and become only capable of cognitively functioning two dimensionally, and, therefore, also – and simultaneously, only capable of functioning like a young child, who can not understand anything for themselves.”

So she said:”Ok, that all make sense to me.”

Now, I also said to her:”Alright, so we also know this about human beings: Dopamine serves a very important function for all children, and mankind in general – other than as the impetus to procreate, and the other important function is as an impetus to learn. Because, every time we 'see' a novel stimulus, the perception of the the novel stimulus, induces dopamine within our minds, which cause ALL people, and especially all young children to want to move in a direction towards the novel stimulus, to enable them to consume it.”

And she said to me:”Ok, that all makes sense too.”

So I then said to her:”Alright, so we can imagine a young child, all through history – say, 100 years ago, sitting inside a room, and looking outside his/her window, and seeing a brightly colored flower, which induces dopamine within his/her mind, and which causes the child to move in a direction towards the flower, because of the dopamine/pleasurable sensation. So, the child does then move in a direction towards the flower, to consume the image of the flower, and/or to consume the dopamine biochemical induction, functioning as pure pleasure. But, because ALL 'young children' can have no 'knowledge,' and/or intelligence, the young child can not know 'what' the 'flower' actually 'is,' and/or what the associated cognition is that we human beings assign to all things, of course. So, after the young child consumes the image of the 'novel stimulus flower,' functioning as pure pleasure – because of the dopamine biochemical induction, the young, impressionable child will have no choice but to turn to his/her 'worldly authoritative god figure,' and/or his/her mother and/or father, and say 'But what is it,' mother and/or father, and to which the child's authoritative god figure, will reply 'Flower,' and, then, during this period in time, the child's mind performs the function of re-uptake, and the child experiences a kind of fuzzy warm confusion, artificially effectuated, 'mother's womb' environment, within which the child feels safe, secure, and a little bit confused, because all young children have no choice but to blindly accept their worldly authoritative god figure's word, that what they are seeing is a 'flower,' and/or anything that they are told.”

And so then she said:”Ok, that all makes sense.”

So then I said to her:”Alright – so look at the history of art, from 1480 – when Leonardo produced The Annunciation, to: 1580, then: 1680, then: 1780, and then all the way up to: 1880, and we can simply see the three dimensional space being eliminated from 'within' 'two dimensional art,' right?'

And she said:”Yeah.”

So then I said:”Alright, so what that 'elimination of three dimensional space,' from 'within two dimensional art,' actually represents is the actual 'regression back to point time zero,' of the aristocratic elite, and/or rich, being reflected 'within' their 'art.' And, of course, which means, after they regressed back to point time zero, they became only capable of functioning as young children, who ARE capable of responding to ALL newly perceived novel stimulus, but who are NOT capable of knowing anything for themselves.”

To which she responded:”Alright, that ALL makes sense so far.”

So than I said to her:”Alright, so right about this point in time – 1880, and AFTER the aristocracy had ALL regressed back to point time zero, and HAD become only capable of functioning as a young children, who ARE capable of responding to all newly perceived novel stimulus, but who are NOT capable of knowing anything for themselves, along came old Pablo Picasso, with all of his brand new, never before seen, two dimensional Flounder People pictures, and old Pablo Picasso put all of his brand new novel stimulus two dimensional Flounder People pictures in front of their faces, and to which they all responded:'OHHH,' and – of course, because they all had actually regressed back to point time zero, and were capable of understanding ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for themselves, they turned to all of the 'worldly authoritative god figures,' and/or gallery/museum owners, and said:'But what is it????”

And then all of the gallery/museum owners – and “ART CRITICS,” ALL said:”PABLO PICASSO!!!!! AND, if YOU give US, this:"

“Why Picasso is the apex of art As another of the artist's works is sold for a stratospheric sum, the world is merely catching up with his originality and genius - Picasso is the greatest modern artist. The market says so, and the British Museum agrees. This week a Picasso was sold at Sotheby's for £28.5m...” Jonathan Jones

"A HUNDRED MILLION OF YOUR DOLLARS – That you got BY RIPPING OFF THE ENTIRE WORLD, you can buy a 'Picasso,' and 'prove to the ENTIRE world that you are a genius too,' by simply selling your soul."

“So,” I said to the girl at the market “We can now know – FOR A FACT, that they ONLY thing they are capable of 'proving,' is that they are the SINGLE stupidest, impressionable, naive, gullible, and GREEDY miserable excuses for human beings that have ever walked the face of this earth. Because, there simply is no such thing as a two dimensional cubist thing ANYWHERE in the ENTIRE universe, and it was ALL nothing more than a product of Picasso's childish imagination, and NOTHING MORE."

And then the girl at the market said to me:”That's amazing – where can I find that?”

So I said:”What?”

And she said:”WHO said ALL of that?”

So I said:”I did.”

And then she said to me:”How come the world doesn't know about that?”

And I said:”Right.”

So, the reason they were able to convince the world to 'buy' all of that, is because the fourth dimension is extremely difficult.

So, what anyone who is sincerely concerned with exposing their unmitigated GREED, is supposed to do, is explain this: Producing an actual pictorial equivalent of the fourth dimension, is an 'artist,' such as Leonardo and/or myself, effecting a four dimensional vector derivative field, with the vectors being magnitudes possessing both direction and quantity, and the derivatives being, both, the points where the individual velocities, and/or: notes/fundamental frequency modulations/superstrings, change direction, with respect towards time, within a perimitered central keynote theme, and harmonic proportionalities of the perimetered central keynote theme. Then to expand upon THESE concepts, to become capable of producing, purposefully producing, a literal “visual symphony,” and/or a concordant polyphonically structured whole, of non tangible form geometrical equations, effectually functioning as, while remaining subservient to, a hierarchically structured whole, symphony.

And anyone – ANYONE, who is sincerely interested in the good of mankind, could easily know that I am NOT lying.

You want to know how?

Well, because I have NEVER sold a single one of my “visual musical equivalents.”

And if some gluttonous pig, came to me with $150,00,000 trying to buy “ME,” I'd tell them to GO STRIGHT BACK TO HELL, where they belong, and to tell Satan he failed in buying my soul, as a matter of fact.

Because, as Plato said:”If a man lives virtuously, and while in accordance to the laws, he will be neither exceedingly rich, nor exceedingly poor.”

And so, my objective - my ONLY objective, is to return "MANKIND'S INNOCENCE."
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby Eclogite on August 16th, 2017, 12:32 pm 

Since you will not make the effort to present your argument in a concise, clear manner, I feel no obligation to invest more of my time to attempt to make sense out of your last post. It is rambling, incoherent and frustrating. I choose not to be frustrated further. pm me if you ever decide to write with precision.
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby MrMikeludo on August 16th, 2017, 12:40 pm 

Eclogite » August 16th, 2017, 12:32 pm wrote:Since you will not make the effort to present your argument in a concise, clear manner, I feel no obligation to invest more of my time to attempt to make sense out of your last post. It is rambling, incoherent and frustrating. I choose not to be frustrated further. pm me if you ever decide to write with precision.


So, why do you the suppose the "Woman at the market" completely understood it?
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby Eclogite on August 16th, 2017, 1:15 pm 

MrMikeludo » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:40 pm wrote:So, why do you the suppose the "Woman at the market" completely understood it?
Most people are devoid of critical thinking skills. That's one explanation. Most people are polite. That's another explanation. Some people are just gullible.

Besides, I certainly did not read that far. Rambling word salad anecdotes are not the stuff of philosophy or art or informative conversation. D-
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby Braininvat on August 16th, 2017, 2:30 pm 

Yes. Support for the validity of one's ideas is not found by asserting that a woman at a flea market agreed with you. Based on the samples of your quoted dialog with her, I had to conclude that she was being kind to you and very polite. Or possibly she feared some kind of confrontation with you, and was tactful and agreeable in order to defuse that possiblity. You could be quite charming and non-confrontational, but a stranger would not know that, and might err on the side of caution.

I am skeptical of your statement that the entire art world "lied," firstly because the art world consists of millions of people rather than a collective hive mind. I know people in that world, and they are very definitely individuals not keen on groupthink. As for the Big Lie being that Picasso tried to depict the 4th dimension in his work, that calls for speculation that you are privy to Picasso's thoughts as he painted. I doubt that very much. Maybe he did, maybe it just looked that way to some interpreting his art. I'm pretty sure "Guernica" was not overly much concerned about four-dimensionality, but rather about the horror of modern warfare. Different works of art have different themes, styles, emotional tone, sources of inspiration, messages, etc. Reducing all of an artist's work to some notion you are obsessed with, while apparently satisfying to you, comes off as rather narrow-minded and self-centered.
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby MrMikeludo on August 16th, 2017, 5:44 pm 

Braininvat:

Braininvat » August 16th, 2017, 2:30 pm wrote:Yes. Support for the validity of one's ideas is not found by asserting that a woman at a flea market agreed with you. Based on the samples of your quoted dialog with her, I had to conclude that she was being kind to you and very polite. Or possibly she feared some kind of confrontation with you, and was tactful and agreeable in order to defuse that possiblity. You could be quite charming and non-confrontational, but a stranger would not know that, and might err on the side of caution.

I am skeptical of your statement that the entire art world "lied," firstly because the art world consists of millions of people rather than a collective hive mind. I know people in that world, and they are very definitely individuals not keen on groupthink. As for the Big Lie being that Picasso tried to depict the 4th dimension in his work, that calls for speculation that you are privy to Picasso's thoughts as he painted. I doubt that very much. Maybe he did, maybe it just looked that way to some interpreting his art. I'm pretty sure "Guernica" was not overly much concerned about four-dimensionality, but rather about the horror of modern warfare. Different works of art have different themes, styles, emotional tone, sources of inspiration, messages, etc. Reducing all of an artist's work to some notion you are obsessed with, while apparently satisfying to you, comes off as rather narrow-minded and self-centered.


Ok, I will admit that I forget sometimes that some people may not know the extent of the particulars, but, please do not accuse me of meandering for filling them in.

To begin with:

“Support for the validity of one's ideas is not found by asserting that a woman at a flea market agreed with you. Based on the samples of your quoted dialog with her, I had to conclude that she was being kind to you and very polite...”


Well, no, first of all the Market is not a regular flea market, but a flea market up the street from the town where I had my shop, in a town called Lambertville, N.J. And which happens to be across the Delaware River from a place called New Hope, Pa.., both of which are world famous East Coast (USA) antique/art meccas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Hope,_Pennsylvania

And home to the “New Hope School:”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylva ... ressionism

And I live within sight of the Michener art Museum:

http://www.michenerartmuseum.org/

Up the road from the Philadelphia Museum Of Art, in Philadelphia, and which is where I learned everything about the art world – first hand, by spending 5 years daily experiencing the art world, and discussing things with that community on a daily basis, including being very good friends with a teacher from here:

https://tyler.temple.edu/

And who is this person:

http://www.philagrafika.org/join-and-su ... oings.html

And including spending a considerable amount of time in New York, also learning everything first hand, and while I owned a house that was a kind of “artists community” in of itself, where people such as this lived (yes people used to think I was him quite often, when we went out at night):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq0sGifhWZc

So, when I opened my shop, in Lambertville, which is where Ragos (a part of Antiques Road Show) is:

http://www.ragoarts.com/

I did not know what had happened to the town and market during the immediate previous years, so, I opened a shop, this shop:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Oh-Boy-L ... 2260107637

I decided that I would dedicate a wall to local artists, where they could have shows, and receive all the proceeds from the sales, on First Fridays, and the first artist I showcased, was this fellow:

http://www.alexcohenart.com/

And on the night of the show, one person showed up, besides myself, and then Alex said to me:”The market isn't what it used to be...”

And I then learned that Alex, who is in his 40's, lives with his parents, because he can't afford to live on his own, from the money he (doesn't) makes trying to sell his art (that barn in the picture is his fathers).

So then I spent 6 months learning about how the market has collapsed, from people like this:

http://www.pedersengallery.com/

And this:

http://thebabblingbrush.com/

And this:

http://www.ev-studio.com/

And this:

http://www.riverqueenartisans.com/

And this:

http://www.mylescavanaugh.com/home

And who are all personal friends of mine.

And the Market I was at, is the place where I purchased a considerable amount of my inventory, such as the fellow whose work is in here:

http://www.groundsforsculpture.org/inde ... ApN68P8HAQ

Which I purchased from him, because he was needing to pay his rent.

So, the ”woman” I was speaking to is an “artist,” from within that same community, and not some “random woman,” and she agreed with me 100%, which is EXACTLY why she said:”HOW COME NO ONE IN THE WORLD KNOWS THIS,” because she is feeling the effects, of this:

“Why is art so damned expensive...'If I can't sell something, I just double the price.' That's what Ernst Beyeler, reportedly said. 'Some people actually prefer to pay more than makes sense'...'I think very often the price paid for a work is the trophy itself,' says Glimcher, the dealer...'The people who are spending record amounts on art buy more than just that glow (of prosperity). They've purchased boasting rights. 'It's, 'You bought the $100 million Picasso...One art adviser who works at the top of the market says that a collector is 'Like a diseased human being...” Blake Gopnik

And:
“I am skeptical of your statement that the entire art world "lied," firstly because the art world consists of millions of people rather than a collective hive mind. I know people in that world, and they are very definitely individuals not keen on groupthink. As for the Big Lie being that Picasso tried to depict the 4th dimension in his work, that calls for speculation that you are privy to Picasso's thoughts as he painted...”


Actually, that is EXACTLY what I did NOT say.

What I DO say, is that: “NO,” or - “YES,” Picasso did NOT ever say he was “Trying to pictorially represent the fourth dimension,” but THEY ALL DO, see:

“To the avant garde, the fourth dimension symbolized the revolt against the excesses of capitalism. They saw its oppressive positivism and vulgar materialism as stifling creative expression...With the beginning of the machine age and capitalism, the artistic world revolted against the cold materialism that seemed to dominate industrial society. To the Cubists, positivism was a straitjacket that confined us to what could be measured in the laboratory, suppressing the fruits of our imagination. They asked: Why must all art be clinically 'realistic'? This Cubist 'revolt against perspective' seized the fourth dimension...Simply put, Cubist art embraced the fourth dimension...Picasso's paintings are a splendid example, showing a clear rejection of the perspective, with women's faces viewed simultaneously from several angles. Instead of a single point of view, Picasso's paintings show multiple perspectives, as though they were painted by someone from the fourth dimension, able to see all perspectives simultaneously...This is how a four dimensional person would see people, viewing all time sequences at once, if time were the fourth dimension.” Hyperspace – Michio Kaku

And they say it over:

"In Paris, Art That Traverses Dimensions - For lovers of contemporary art a must-see show of the Italian Arte Povera sculptor Mario Ceroli is on view at the Tornabuoni Gallery on the upscale Avenue Matignon - 'He subverts the classical idea of sculpture and constructs a different kind of four-dimensionality through the idea of a superimposition of sliced silhouettes,' Mr. Crispolti said." The New York Times - Claudia Barbieri - 2010

And over:

"Why Picasso has his finger on the 21st century's pulse...Art does not happen in a sealed bubble, cut off from other intellectual developments. When Picasso was a cubist, Einstein was theorising relativity. There is a close parallel between Einstein's demolition of the plausible, orderly universe of Newtonian physics and cubism's explosion of the coherent, illusory world of the perspectival picture as it had developed since the Renaissance. Yet neither Einstein nor Picasso were iconoclasts for the sake of it. In both cases, what they produced was not chaos. It was a richer and more complex description of reality." Jonathan Jones - March 2011

And over:

"Following the development of Mathematics, where spaces with more than three dimensions are routinely addressed, the unfathomable, metaphysical character of possibly unperceived dimensions attracted wider attention and, not surprisingly, some of these mathematical ideas found their way towards artistic expression. A notorious example is Salvador Dali’s “Crucifixion” or “Corpus Hypercubus” (1954), a painting where Jesus Christ is depicted crucified upon the cross – like three dimensional net of a hypercube, the four dimensional analog of a cube. Though some mental gymnastics have been created to assist, after considerable exercise, towards the understanding of the nature of objects inhabiting a world our mind is not tuned to, full perception of objects such as the hypercube may be even impossible. Yet some at least superficial understanding may be achieved by creating analogs in spaces of lower dimensions. A cube for example, the 3D analog of the hypercube, can be formed by properly folding a 2D net consisting of six squares. When rotated, a cube casts shadows of a variety of geometric shapes on a 2D wall, two of them being a hexagonal shape and a square. Similarly, a hypercube, inhabiting a 4D space, casts “shadows” of a variety of three dimensional shapes upon 3D space and it can be formed by properly folding a 3D net consisting of eight cubes (though this kind of folding is far from possible to imagine), such as the one depicted in “Corpus Hypercubus”. From this point of view, Dali’s painting represents a pathway from 4D space (hypercube) towards 3D space (hypercube net) and then towards 2D space (the canvas surface)..." Theodor Pavlopoulous

And over:

"Archive for the ‘Fourth Dimension’ - Picasso figured out a way to paint so that the viewer can see multiple sides (points of view) all at the same time and from the same place. That is cool. Not icky or boring in the least! I wonder what Einstein would say about all this…wait! What’s that you say? Einstein came up with the theory of relativity in the same decade as Picasso started painting as if he lived on a beam of light?" One Foot Walking

And over:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_dimension_in_art

And over again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picasso_a ... apin_Agile

And I spent FOUR years, trying to tell them:”Uh, no he didn't,” see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffUoSgxcfx0

And tens of thousands of times, and NEVER EVEN “ONE” TIME, did Mr. Jones respond to my request, for him to defend his statements.

So, YEAH – THEY are “LIARS.”

And – you think IF they weren't “LIARS,” I wouldn't have been sued already? Yeah, you can bet your very life on it, they are liars.

But, it DIDN'T start with Picasso, Picasso was, LITERALLY, an “IDIOT” - LITERALLY, a complete mental midget, but, it all started with Duchamp, who DID “LIE:”

https://msu.edu/course/ha/850/noneuclideangeometry.pdf

And so:

“Reducing all of an artist's work to some notion you are obsessed with, while apparently satisfying to you, comes off as rather narrow-minded and self-centered.”


I just proved I didn't really do that, did I?

But please, do not now accuse me of "meandering."
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby Eclogite on August 16th, 2017, 6:29 pm 

We do not need to accuse you of meandering since you have done an outstanding job of demonstrating it. Your entire argument could have been condensed into a couple or three paragraphs. That way someone might actually have read it and - more importantly - been convinced by it.

As to narrow minded and self centered, I think your post could be used as an excellent case study of just those characteristics. But do continue to ignore all the feedback you are receiving. Consistency can be admirable.
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby Positor on August 16th, 2017, 8:51 pm 

In 2011 I made several posts in this thread, which deal with specific points. Anyone interested in this topic may wish to read my posts there, and Mr Mikeludo's replies to them. This may help to focus the discussion.
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby Eclogite on August 16th, 2017, 10:49 pm 

Positor » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:51 am wrote:In 2011 I made several posts in this thread, which deal with specific points. Anyone interested in this topic may wish to read my posts there, and Mr Mikeludo's replies to them. This may help to focus the discussion.
Thank you for that Positor. Your comments in that thread were a delight of clarity and concision. Unfortunately, couple with his affirmative responses, they served only to confirm in my mind that MrMikeludo confuses opinions with facts and has a strange, Iwould say indefensible, set of opinions.
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby BadgerJelly on August 17th, 2017, 12:46 am 

Positor » August 17th, 2017, 8:51 am wrote:In 2011 I made several posts in this thread, which deal with specific points. Anyone interested in this topic may wish to read my posts there, and Mr Mikeludo's replies to them. This may help to focus the discussion.


Already been there. Mik has not addressed a single attempt I've made to open a discussion. We all know symmetry is beautiful. I have already said that art need not be beautiful to be art, the point of it is to move someone emotionally.

Instead he is asking us to follow a trail of bread crumbs to who know where and spend a considerable amount of time doing so. He's even offered a "prize" thinking this will help as an incentive.

There are probably at least half a dozen attempts I have made to open a discussion that have not been taken on. There is quite literally no discussion as yet.

Mik -

Being courteous to people does not involve calling them, and I quote, "You lying sack of shit." On another forum someone accused me of ridiculing them. I admitted I was because what was being said was ridiculous so it would be dishonest of me to act otherwise.

I will repeat, I believe most people are well aware of symmetry being important in artistic composition. I don't view art as hedonism though. The ugliness of a painting or piece of music may be of use because to me art is about moving someone to a certain emotional state and a self exploration, not merely a case of "Wow! That's pretty!" I have even been in literal tears looking at a crack in the pavement because I found it so beautiful, it was not because of the symmetry it was because I could relate a multitude of different interpretations of it my creative imagination (and being in a very particular state of ... well, I guess what many would refer to as "psychosis") Where you say you "see" the music in everything I "saw" the "narrative" in everything.

At least you've reminded me I'd like to read his works so I'll order them soon.

In the meantime maybe Positor can bridge the gap in understanding? Maybe his opinion of your "diagrams" will shed light on whatever it is you want to say. Other than that feel feel to engage with the numerous questions I've posed with the quotes/vids. The Peterson one was almost parallel to a great deal of what you were saying yet you passed it by without a single comment trying to entice us toward a prize with obscure "clues".
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby MrMikeludo on August 17th, 2017, 5:34 am 

BadgerJelly:

I haven't been ignoring you, been trying to get caught up..So, let me ask you:

Mik -

Being courteous to people does not involve calling them, and I quote, "You lying sack of shit."..


I'm a little confused, why is that NOT being courteous?
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby Eclogite on August 17th, 2017, 7:24 am 

MrMikeludo » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:34 am wrote:BadgerJelly:

I haven't been ignoring you, been trying to get caught up..So, let me ask you:

Mik -

Being courteous to people does not involve calling them, and I quote, "You lying sack of shit."..


I'm a little confused, why is that NOT being courteous?
If you have to ask because you don't know then you have a problem.

If you have to ask because you wish to make a point, then here are the negatives in the phrase:
1. Accusing people of lying is often discourteous.
2. Characterising them as an inanimate object is discourteous unless that object is generally valued.
3. Comparing them to fecal matter is discourteous.

Why are each of these actions discourteous? Societal norms have determined that such is the case. You don't have to like it, that's just the way it is.

If I were to describe you as a narcicistic, agenda-driven egomaniac, that might be accurate, but it would also be discourteous. So I won't.
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby MrMikeludo on August 17th, 2017, 9:11 am 

Eclogite:

If I were to describe you as a narcicistic, agenda-driven egomaniac, that might be accurate, but it would also be discourteous. So I won't..


But it might not be accurate. So, how could we ever know, what is the "guidepost," your opinion of me, OR my opinion of you, OR our understanding of Hitler, OR our understanding of Jesus?

OR, our understanding of reality?
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Re: Return To Innocence.

Postby MrMikeludo on August 17th, 2017, 9:30 am 

Eclogite:

Eclogite » August 16th, 2017, 10:49 pm wrote:
Positor » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:51 am wrote:In 2011 I made several posts in this thread, which deal with specific points. Anyone interested in this topic may wish to read my posts there, and Mr Mikeludo's replies to them. This may help to focus the discussion.
Thank you for that Positor. Your comments in that thread were a delight of clarity and concision. Unfortunately, couple with his affirmative responses, they served only to confirm in my mind that MrMikeludo confuses opinions with facts and has a strange, Iwould say indefensible, set of opinions.


Please site a particular? I would like the opportunity to "defend" my "opinions."

Thank you.
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