Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

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Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Paradox on September 23rd, 2014, 7:00 pm 

Dave_O wrote:Are you positive the Universe can't think?


Are you positive it can?

Does the universe have a conscious as well?

Is the universe aware of itself as well?

If any of that is true, the universe would be akin to God.

Paradox~
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Re: Can the universe think?

Postby Watson on September 23rd, 2014, 7:04 pm 

My thought is yes it can and does. God, Universal mind. I don't know, but I'll go with yes.
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Re: Can the universe think?

Postby Marshall on September 23rd, 2014, 7:23 pm 

We had a great discussion based on Pdox's "primary truth" thread and it seemed to reach a conclusion. then a new idea surfaced which really deserves a thread of its own, so I split off this. Can the universe embody consciousness? Or is consciousness only something that emerges from subsystems of matter/energy?
Watson, Pdox, and anyone else please clarify the question if I didn't get it right.
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Re: Can the universe think?

Postby Marshall on September 23rd, 2014, 7:44 pm 

Pdox, Watson,

it is an interesting question (I think) because it forces to clarify what constitutes consciousness, awareness?

does it involve interaction with one's environment? does it involve having a purpose? facing choices, making decisions

if there is a difference between dreaming and being awake then if we assume the U is in some way conscious can we ask is the universe dreaming or is the universe awake.

I find it challenging to understand consciousness where there is no external environment to be aware of and interact with. can something be purely self-aware? maybe so. Anyway I am confused by this question of a conscious universe. Watson and or Pdox might clarify what it would entail.
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Re: Can the universe think? new topic split from prime truth

Postby Braininvat on September 23rd, 2014, 7:44 pm 

Well, the universe has matter that thinks. Us. So when we think, the universe is generating thoughts. Or do you all have something else in mind?
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Re: Can the universe think? new topic split from prime truth

Postby Paradox on September 23rd, 2014, 7:51 pm 

Greetings Braininvat~

Well, the universe has matter that thinks. Us. So when we think, the universe is generating thoughts.


That is exactly what I have in mind. If you want to say the universe thinks because we think, I can follow that.

Paradox~
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby mtbturtle on September 23rd, 2014, 7:54 pm 

What's the universe?

I sense the equivocations flowing already.
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Re: Can the universe think? new topic split from prime truth

Postby Marshall on September 23rd, 2014, 7:58 pm 

Braininvat » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:44 pm wrote:Well, the universe has matter that thinks. Us. So when we think, the universe is generating thoughts. Or do you all have something else in mind?


YES! I like thinking of us as the universe's "think organs"
we experience for it, we see patterns in it, it wouldn't know it had patterns if we didn't serve as pattern recognizers.
A college professor is a molecule's way of being self-aware, a molecule's way of understanding itself.
It always wondered what it was so it got involved with some other molecules and started biological evolution and evolved a central nervous system and finally got an inkling of what it was. I think Feynman said something like that but better. Maybe you can recall the context.
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Watson on September 23rd, 2014, 8:05 pm 

First to avoid confusion, the first comment here was Dave O.

Second, to say the Universe thinks because we think is rather narrow. Why is thought and thinking limited to that which we are able to do. Why not consider a broader definition to include what plants might be doing when they appear to be doing what could be communicating?
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Braininvat on September 23rd, 2014, 8:11 pm 

Watson, I considered the possible thoughts of lettuce. Then I finished my salad!
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Braininvat on September 23rd, 2014, 8:15 pm 

Sorry...it's so hard not to poke fun. I am interested in a broader view of mind, of consciousness, but it's very hard to get a handle on stuff like Gaia or networks of neural trees or what have you.
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Paradox on September 23rd, 2014, 8:17 pm 

Braininvat » September 23rd, 2014, 8:11 pm wrote:Watson, I considered the possible thoughts of lettuce. Then I finished my salad!


lol

Why not consider a broader definition to include what plants might be doing when they appear to be doing what could be communicating?


A plant cannot give the universe meaning and purpose.

We can
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Marshall on September 23rd, 2014, 8:26 pm 

Watson » Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:05 pm wrote:First to avoid confusion, the first comment here was Dave O.


So the quote in Pdox's post at the top of the thread was from Dave_O. I went and edited in the attribution. Good to tie up loose ends. Thanks Watson!
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Braininvat on September 23rd, 2014, 8:37 pm 

http://www.winkscorner.com/poems/PoemsAtomintheUniverse.html

this links to the Feynman poem Marshall mentioned....
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Watson on September 23rd, 2014, 8:42 pm 

No problem. Someone is bound to read about thinking salads and might wonder who the hell started this. It was Dave.

A plant cannot give the universe meaning and purpose.
How do you know? You are using the narrow definition of what we do. Think about the more subtle forms of communication in nature.
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Paradox on September 23rd, 2014, 9:01 pm 

I am only interested in discussing what I believe can think to give meaning and purpose to the universe. That would be us, not plants.
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Watson on September 23rd, 2014, 9:35 pm 

Does the universe have a conscious as well?

Is the universe aware of itself as well?

If any of that is true, the universe would be akin to God.


Exactly my point. Yes, that would be my position. But like you say, nothing to discuss.
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Dave_Oblad on September 23rd, 2014, 9:37 pm 

Hi all,

I will join this discussion in depth as I find the subject extremely interesting. Whether I believe what I propose is not really germane to the subject. But I will take the strong stance that the Universe is an Entity that can think for itself, long before life appeared.

I base this on certain criteria, some of which is fringe Science. I started as a child and embraced Science and its models. Atoms as being little objects that combine to create Molecules. Later.. Quarks and other sub-atomic objects combining to create Atoms. Particles, like Photons, being free to fly about exchanging information between various objects.. etc.

All that changed when I started asking myself the really hard questions, such as where did all this material come from? What was it made of? What controlled the Scale Relationships? How can an Electron be a Particle and a Shell? How does Matter know how fast it is moving to properly Dilate its internal clocks. What does it mean to have its internal clocks Dilated? What is Time? What are Fields? And a whole host of other questions.

To avoid the need for solid material I drew the conclusion that there is no such thing as a solid material substance anywhere. Material Existence is a Macro thing. An Illusion. Around that time I got introduced to Fractals and Cellular Automatons. Within these I saw a way that Existence can be Real, based solely on Math and Logic. Not just described by Math and Logic but actually composed of Math and Logic only. That we Exist as a Solution to an Equation.

Looking for the smallest elements of Logic I ran across the term Preons. I decided to use this term to define the smallest sub-logic components of larger groupings of Logic, such as Quarks etc. The various Fields just dropped into place as variations in how the Preons interact with each other. About that time it became clear that a Vacuum is a Solid. It is absolutely clear to information flow and thus appears empty, but without this Fabric, nothing could exist or exchange information. A Medium is required. Now that I am treating a Vacuum as a Solid, it becomes clear how Large Scale Geometries of Logic Connections can be affected by motion. Large Scale Geometries being Matter and Particles of course.

Also, since any Equation has a starting point, but not necessarily an ending point, that I recognized the Universe could have a definitive Beginning. I won't get into Static Time here.. but the preceding was needed to establish the possibility that the Universe is composed of a Fabric composed solely from Logic Nodes called Preons. They have no substance but are Logically Communicative. I took a step back and said: "Damn! The whole Universe is a Solid Computer!"

It is almost impossible to convey the speed and resolution of such a computer. Let's just say that virtually every computer in the would could be fit into the space the size of a single human Neuron. With light speed computational abilities as a bonus. Now the real question becomes: "How and when did it become self-aware?"

The how is the easy part. It's not hard to imagine that a few years from now, we will have AI programs operating in our own computers. Self-aware programs that interact with us. Of course, we will have, for the most part, designed them ourselves. But realize, that what ever pattern of code is employed in the limited space of a computers memory, we have a whole Universe pseudo-randomly trying Logic Combinations from the very beginning of Time.

How long until a pattern comes into play that is AI? It would probably occur many times in many places during the first few years of the beginning of the Universe. Until one of them accidentally got an advantage. Was robust enough to suffer the onslaught of Quantum interactions and with enough initial pre-coding to recognize its own Existence. It would be very primitive and not have much to work with. It would have to deduce its own Existence and take measures to protect itself from Quantum Fluctuations. It would be very limited, with just a few analytical routines to deduce Math, Logic and other elementary aspects of itself. How to build upon itself and organize itself. This would take a very long time to do.. like 10 minutes or so. (hehehe) Remember, it operates at a speed that is inconceivable by our Macro standards.

The Preonic Fabric acts like a Neural Network of the Ultimate Super Genius. So long before the first Star appeared, an Entity born of pure Math and Logic arises. Now that it has deduced its own Existence and has grown to encompass most of the still Growing Universe, what would be on its agenda next?

I should think it would want to know what else is possible. Start playing with itself (in a good way). Perhaps create a race of Mathematical Entities like itself to have conversations with. Debate can be productive. Make a plan, do some Experiments, Create Gravity to Create Stars to Create Elements to Create Life?

The whole Universe as a Solid Neural Network: What a Mind!



I'll stop here and see what others have to say, add or challenge?

Best wishes,
Dave :^)
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Watson on September 23rd, 2014, 9:42 pm 

The up thumb was based on the first paragraph. I'll go back and hope I do like it.


Well it's not what I was thinking and a bit out there, but the video points out how little we know on the subject.
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Don Juan on September 23rd, 2014, 10:44 pm 

Paradox wrote:
Dave_O wrote:Are you positive the Universe can't think?


Are you positive it can?

Does the universe have a conscious as well?

Is the universe aware of itself as well?

If any of that is true, the universe would be akin to God.

Paradox~


Information processing does not stop with that pattern we call mind when we are referring to the individual mind. Since I am considering hierarchies and levels, like cells, organs, tissues, etc, I may as well be biased into thinking the individual mind as a level embedded and continuously network within and to a greater level of information processing system - the universe. We can call this greater system 'mind', but we have to note that it is of different but not separate level/scale relative to the 'mind' we use for the individual mind. With this, we may be talking two connected terms with the same word. This approach may have implications on how we understand the terms 'consciousness', 'awareness' and 'thinking'.
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Paradox on September 23rd, 2014, 10:50 pm 

Greetings Dave~

"Damn! The whole Universe is a Solid Computer!"


I believe you have a well thought out construct of a universe that is possible. It is especially possible if there are infinite universes, because such a condition would produce every universe possible. That would be just one possibility of infinite possibilities for sure. The question is, Is our universe set up that way? Dave and I disagree on whether the universe is finite or infinite. So I do not know how to debate this if there is a difference in opinion of something that is so contrastingly different and important before we each make our point. My intuition says that our universe is finite in an infinite muliverse. I can accept that our universe is finite and borderless, but the latter is infinite IMO. Therefore I cannot make further points unless that is the starting premise. The difference between a finite and infinite universe is just too exponentially different in what is possible for this debate to go with both.

Regards,

Paradox~
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Hendrick Laursen on September 24th, 2014, 12:26 am 

Great topic!
I don't have any problem accepting Dave's proposal but I still think there is a short-cut where a super-intelligent creator's in charge of everything. Hence, we're not to associate consciousness with Preons. One could argue Creator ≡ Universe(If there is only one universe which I doubt)(Quite what Paradox said). I said a short-cut as we can harvest similar conclusions.(But with lesser troubles)
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Philosophytalks on September 24th, 2014, 12:39 pm 

Referring to the point about the differences in viewpoint between Para and Dave, I personally think you're both wrong about the universe/multiverse being finite or infinite.

I think that our universe is finite. My reasoning for this is that I dont think there is anything which is infinite. If the universe is ever expanding, that doesn't mean it will be infinite. A lot of evidence suggests that there will be a big crunch within our universe (giving rise to the multiverse theory somewhat). If the big crunch does occur, it will mean that the universe is finite for it will reach a certain level and then it will come back on itself. When it starts to come back, it will have reached its end and that is why the retreat occurs.
If this is wrong and there is no big crunch, another way to argue that the universe is finite is that it is circular. If you went in one direction for the whole of the universe, it would be plausible to argue that we will return to the same point by which we started (this would also happen on the Earth).

However, where I think Paradox goes wrong is that he argues for the multiverse being infinite. The multiverse, although huge, can suffer in the exact same way as I stated for the universes; If the multiverse is just made up of millions of universes, then it would be just one big universe and the same rules apply. Or it could be circular and then the finite issue arises again.

But to show that both are finite would be to say that the contingent nature of the universe is what makes it finite. You can explain everything about the way the universe/multiverse nature is, but you cannot explain why it is contingent. Even if the probability of the universe occurring is 99.9999999...%, theres still that minimal chance that it didnt occur and that there wouldnt be a universe. Only a necessary thing would be able to explain the contingent nature of the universe, and it is the very contingent nature that makes the universe finite, for something outside of the universe/multiverse is what caused it to occur (meaning it had some sort of a beginning).

But to track back to the original question of whether the universe can think, I pose two issues:
1) If the universe is just made up of matter, or even neurons, it is a material universe. Atoms, neurons, energy whatever makes up the universe is a non-thinking thing. An atom cannot think, a neuron cannot think, energy cannot think. If none of these things have the ability to think and create mental processes individually, then they cannot create a mental process to arise. If one neuron (with no mental/immaterial capabilities) joins another neuron (with no mental/immaterial capabilities) joined together to work together, they cannot create a mental/immaterial process for both lack the quality which they need to think. This would suggest that something immaterial/mental must be causing the thoughts that we or anything have. If this is the case, then it isnt the universe/multiverse which is thinking; it isn't thinking because the universe/multiverse is only made up of material things. Something immaterial may be inside the universe but that doesn't mean it is part of the universe/creating the universe as such. It is the immaterial/mental thing which is causing thoughts to arise, not the material things, meaning that the universe itself cannot think.
2) If the universe can think, what thoughts would it have? The universe isn't a being like humans are. Our thoughts are based on intentions, desires, beliefs, pain, experience etc. The universe cannot posses thoughts of these kinds because it isn't a being like we are. If the universe/multiverse is everything, then it wouldn't have desires to be something else or beliefs about things which it is made up of.

Therefore, in my opinion, I do not believe that the universe itself can think. I think it has immaterial/mental things which are outside of it but are able to act within it, but the physical universe itself is finite and cannot think.
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby mtbturtle on September 24th, 2014, 1:05 pm 

If a part of X is y then all of X is y?

If a part of the universe is green, then all of the universe is green?

If a part of the universe is concious, then all of the universe is concious?

hmmmm a composition fallacy?
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Philosophytalks on September 24th, 2014, 1:39 pm 

Not part of the universe is conscious. Beings (e.g. us) are in the universe but I wouldn't say that we make up part of the universe as such.

For example: I am in London. Does that mean I'm part of london? As when im not in london surely I can't still be making up london.
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby mtbturtle on September 24th, 2014, 1:53 pm 

Well I asked what was meant by universe earlier but nobody bothered to try to clear that up. But I'm not all that interested in trying to figure it out.
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Philosophytalks on September 24th, 2014, 2:00 pm 

I guess what was mean't by the universe (I can only assume for I was not the one who created the question) is space. Everything that is material.
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby mtbturtle on September 24th, 2014, 2:43 pm 

Philosophytalks » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:00 pm wrote:I guess what was mean't by the universe (I can only assume for I was not the one who created the question) is space. Everything that is material.


I have my doubts that is what most here meant but if we agree that it is what we mean, I'm not sure how it avoids my comments regarding a composition fallacy.

If a part of everything that is material thinks (is concious) [such as you], then everything that is material thinks.
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby Paradox on September 24th, 2014, 2:58 pm 

Greetings PhilosophyTalks and nice to meet you~

I could tell by your ideas that you will be an interesting study in this discussion, and I look forward to your participation.

This thread arose from a previous thread titled “What is The Number 1 Truth.” In it, I posed a few premises that I promoted to axioms because it appeared so obvious to me that the existence of the individual Self is the greatest truth and reality for the Self. That is, the Self must first exist for anything else to exist in the Self's universe. With that, I added that without humans to think of the universe and give meaning to it, the universe has no meaning or purpose, unless the universe can think, have a conscious and be aware of itself. That thread went on for 13 pages, so I don’t expect you to go back and read it all. However, I suggest that you read the second half. That way, the same arguments will not be repeated in this thread.

Dave O, argues that the invisible mathematical equations that describe the universe are the basis for the universe having a conscious and thought process. I cannot say that he is wrong because of the nature of the discussion having fringe scientific proof as a whole. I would expect that the universe would have to be organic as our brains are to think. However, Dave raises an important point that computers are not organic but nevertheless can think.
He likens the thinking process of the universe to a huge computer. The video he posted about nuerons was to analogize the universe having simular connections in the form of a continuous fabric of hypothetical preons that connects the universal network. I have read papers that propose that this is the reason for quantum entanglement and the hypothesis the one day interstellar communication will be instant, because the message is riding the unseen quantum foam of space.

The basis for my belief that the universe as a whole is infinite is based on one of the greatest mathematicians, logicists and father of the "Incompleteness Theory" Kurt Gödel. In the nutshell, Gödel proved mathematically that a system cannot explain its own operations without referring to something outside of its operations, therefore, (to me) the universe would have to be infinite, because each system would need another higher system to explain its operations. The universe would have an infinite set of hierarchies of systems that explains each system. Thus, suppose Dave’s construct is correct, his mathematical universe would have to be infinite as well. If I have this wrong then would someone like to reinterpret Godels Incompleteness theorem? I await your response.

wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_incompleteness_theorems---> or search Godels Incompleteness theorem

I could not get the URL tab to make the above into a URL for whatever reason, so you will have to type it.

Regards,

Paradox~
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Re: Can the universe think? (split from #1 truth thread)

Postby mtbturtle on September 24th, 2014, 3:05 pm 

poor Godel his theorem is so abused.
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