Numerology-Science or Fiction?

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Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby life_sucks on January 18th, 2015, 4:21 pm 

I personally do not believe in numerology. I believe that names may have minor effects but not drastic enough for personality change.
However, I checked out a website recently after a friend discussed it. Though my friend is a bit superstitious..
I am over-stubborn. I fully believe that such things are bull-shit.
The site proclaims to use "Kabalarian" philosophy and maths to calculate nature of people from names.

What is irking me is the constant feeling that the site is making right predictions.
How can it continue making so many coincidences?
Or, if it is not a coincidence, then I would like to know how it is deceiving my mind.
Is there any scientific method that is effective in fooling people in this manner??

eg. I do not know too much of the people I inserted names of.
But, for each of them the kind of predictions - carefree/serious match.
I was hoping to see a particular mistake of the kind where it predicts a serious chap as carefree.
But no.

This leads me to believe that it is using a writing technique where the reader is getting at least one hit in terms of correct nature irrespective of the person in question.
I confess I was not paying overmuch attention...
But, I did read one thoroughly, and could not decide on how it is implementing the method.

However, I feel that the method is quite scientific and developed...
So, if anyone knows of such a method of writing, could you enlighten me??

Note- Many people are getting quite convinced by this...
I believe it is a trick of writing, for reasons I may state later.
I am hoping that others will agree that it is obviously a trick, and may be able to answer my query...
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby dlorde on January 18th, 2015, 5:09 pm 

It sounds like a version of the Barnum Effect, also known as the Forer Effect where, for example, everyone reading the same text will feel it is a very perceptive description of themselves. The elements of texts of this kind can be re-worded and shuffled to give the appearance of a tailored description for each punter.

This effect bolsters many 'mind-reading' tricks, and is particularly useful in cold-reading by psychics, illusionists, tricksters. etc.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby wolfhnd on January 18th, 2015, 7:16 pm 

I feel that the method is quite scientific and developed..


I have read these books too :-) I read a scientific study, that I no longer have access to, that tested the predictive accuracy of numerology and the author found it to be slightly higher than expected.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that these arts have a certain degree of validity akin to psychotherapy. Despite cultural diversity humans have a shared psychological make up. Certain psychological tricks can be employed to allow people to access subconscious information they otherwise would be unaware of or to make them unaware of things they would otherwise be conscious of. This could be akin to hypnosis and may include all the psychic arts and magic.

I think numerology and astrology are more sophisticated than other forms of illusional arts such as psychic readings that directly manipulate their audiences. Due to their long cultural history they contain, much like DNA contains the history of evolution, a history of cultural evolution or past experiences. It's this knowledge of how things usually work out that allows them to beat the 50 percent average for predictions. The people that engage in these arts need not even know they are charlatans for this effect to come into play. This is just a personal theory not a philosophical position.

These things are worthy of studying for a variety of reasons much as religious text are because they contain information not found anywhere else. I don't believe in them myself and encourage others to not believe in them.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby TheVat on January 18th, 2015, 8:02 pm 

I would be interested in a scientific study that found any predictive accuracy from astrology or numerology. We 9's are very skeptical of such pseudosciences. Seriously, folks, wouldn't the placement of my crib with respect to windows, heat vents, electrical devices, external sound sources, etc. have more effect on me than where the planets are or how the letters of my name add up when converted to integers?

Sun-sign astrology might make some sense if it were about seasonal effects in very early months on development. Especially if we all spent more of our lives outdoors and didn't have artificial lighting, central heat/AC, and such.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby dlorde on January 18th, 2015, 8:38 pm 

wolfhnd » January 18th, 2015, 11:16 pm wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that these arts have a certain degree of validity akin to psychotherapy. Despite cultural diversity humans have a shared psychological make up. Certain psychological tricks can be employed to allow people to access subconscious information they otherwise would be unaware of or to make them unaware of things they would otherwise be conscious of. This could be akin to hypnosis and may include all the psychic arts and magic.

I think numerology and astrology are more sophisticated than other forms of illusional arts such as psychic readings that directly manipulate their audiences. Due to their long cultural history they contain, much like DNA contains the history of evolution, a history of cultural evolution or past experiences. It's this knowledge of how things usually work out that allows them to beat the 50 percent average for predictions. The people that engage in these arts need not even know they are charlatans for this effect to come into play. This is just a personal theory not a philosophical position.

Yes, I think there is something to this - many of these apparently superstitious practices seem to be indirect and potentially useful ways of accessing aspects of the unconscious; but without this explicit recognition, a great deal of nonsensical and supernatural flim-flam has accrued around them. For example, as a student, I spent a fair bit of time playing with the I-Ching and its obscure and opaque commentaries, and it struck me that they are very well suited to elicit unconscious influence on one's interpretations.

A couple of years ago I attended a short course on 'Exploring Practical Symbolism' where we examined the history of symbolism, imagination, interpretation of symbols, divination, etc., including exercises with the I-Ching & Tarot, and informal 'reading' of random postcards for personal relevance. Half the attendees saw these exercises as receiving magical messages out of the aether, the other half, more rationally, saw them as interesting routes into exploring unrecognised areas of their personal psychology. The two lecturers visibly struggled to restrain themselves from expressing their belief in the paranormal... quite amusing.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby Watson on January 18th, 2015, 8:47 pm 

Braininvat » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:02 pm wrote: wouldn't the placement of my crib with respect to windows, heat vents, electrical devices, external sound sources, etc.

Now you 're talking feng shui. And that begins with the orientation of the universe at the time of birth. It seems to be an extension of astrology, and there are favored numbers and less favored numbers but how it might relate to numerology, I'm not sure.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby wolfhnd on January 19th, 2015, 2:20 am 

I would be interested in a scientific study that found any predictive accuracy from astrology or numerology.


As I recall the predictive accuracy was so small as to be dismissed as error in the analysis. It was clear however that the author believed that there was something else going on because he did not get the results he expected. The book made no attempt to rationalize the results. The author remained hostile to the idea that they were in anyway useful. I do not believe that they are useful. A 49.5 percent failure rate is not useful. I only went beyond the author to speculate why his results were not as expected.

My suggestion should only be to consider that some kinds of knowledge is pasted down between practitioners in an obscure manner that may not be accessible to outsiders. The magic may represent real world relationships that are obscure to us. Most of the predictive power remains a product of the practitioners own conscious or more likely subconscious mind if they are sincere. The point in studying these types of things is to understand the culture and minds that produced them not their legitimacy. Some people would go so far as to suggest that historically they are proto science. Math and astronomy being direct descendants of the art of magic. If nothing else they are historical artifacts.

I think it is interesting to consider how magical abstraction relate to other abstractions that we use to understand our world and thereby how abstractions arise in the human mind. I'm interested in how abstractions relate to reality.

It is also important to understand them as arts not superstitions and not dismiss them entirely. I don't dismiss witch doctors entirely either. Who knows what we may discovered if we look close enough. Their could be cultural experience buried in a ritual that was concealing a useful herbal medicine or a psychological cure. Most likely not but it is amusing to look and I have nothing better to do.

I know I'm weird and you all hate anecdotal evidence but sometimes it's all you have. Most of my life I have done applied science and despite my natural modesty I would say I have done it well. When not acting in a professional capacity I tend to get a little out of control :-)
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby doogles on January 19th, 2015, 5:04 am 

Have any forum members subjected it to THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD?
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby Eclogite on January 19th, 2015, 5:48 am 

The only relevance of numerology to living is that most of us focus on number one.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby wolfhnd on January 19th, 2015, 6:35 am 

Have any forum members subjected it to THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD?


Does sociology or anthropology count? These pseudosciences are interesting.

The answer is of course, no why would they. I'm not sure why this ended up in the Anything Philosophy forum but it would have been a better fit in psychology because the OP clearly is asking how people are hoodwinked by this sort of thing. dlorde answered this question very nicely. I decided to go off topic and discuss it's possible historical and cultural significance but decided that was not a good fit for philosophy.

I could find no serious scientific review but I did find this interesting article below. Apparently it is too blatantly ridiculous for anyone to seriously study. Like I said I did read a book once that went through it thoroughly and proved it to not be valid. I believe the author was a mathematician and not a scientist but I do not remember where I got it, the title or anything else. I was probably 40 years ago. The fact that it had the slightest bit more accuracy than a coin toss seemed to irritate the author. I'm hoping that this discrepancy has been explained or removed and that someone here would be able to do so.

PSEUDOSCIENCES: A MEANS TO TEACHING SCIENTIFIC METHODS

http://www.indian-skeptic.org/html/is_v01/1-11-7.htm

My astrophysics instructor brought an astrologer to our class to discuss his theories with us. I was annoyed with the idea that an instructor would so blatantly waste our time. I only realized the importance of his actions when I found out several students believed in astrology. People are a mysterious lot.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby TheVat on January 19th, 2015, 11:04 am 

Eclogite » January 19th, 2015, 3:48 am wrote:The only relevance of numerology to living is that most of us focus on number one.


And believe in a lot of number two.*








* for those who use English as a second language, "number two" is an old euphemism for excrement.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby life_sucks on January 19th, 2015, 1:09 pm 

Everyone, Thanks for your replies.

dlorde,
Your post was informative. In this particular case, it seems they used Forer/Barnum Effect and cold reading. Also, they used the policy that people are more likely to focus on the "hit" part...

wolfhnd,
I am open to the idea that numerology is scientific, if it is exhaustively proved.
That is why the thread name was such.
However, the OP describes my personal stance.


I think that Feng shui and other "superstitions" may have scientific basis in certain cases.
Also, as you said, witch doctors indeed have been known to provide medicinal assistance effectively.
However, all these tend to overstate their capabilities to acheive a sort of special "mystical" status.

I do not believe in numerology, especially by strangers.
However, in a personal encounter with an astrologer, I believe that there is less guessing involved.
If they are local, they already know much about you. And if they don't, well they do have good analytical and psychological abilities.

I considered some ways names may affect personalities, and also some possible reasons that names might have personality connections. But I don't think that a definite result is possible, even from statistics.

eg. A family of cricket fans name their son Sachin. The son grows up in such an environment, and so, possibly is interested in sports. Also, if he is of excited nature, then possibly he plays too much, and so neglects studies. So, if Sachin's mother visits an astrologer, he already knows of these facts.

But the above rely on too much guesswork, and exceptions are very likely.

Also, I considered some guaranteed environmental effects, but couldn't decide on its effects(if any).
eg. People with names beginning with A, have low roll numbers. So, in school, their name comes up early,during roll call. The people with higher roll numbers knows the Roll call is in progress when so many of their friends respond to the call. Does this practice since childhood make a child with name starting with A more aware of their surroundings(?)
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby dlorde on January 19th, 2015, 2:03 pm 

life_sucks » January 19th, 2015, 5:09 pm wrote:I am open to the idea that numerology is scientific, if it is exhaustively proved.

Numerology is about the occult significance of numbers, so is not scientific by that definition (the occult is about the supernatural, magical, and/or mystical). However, the interpretation of numerological practices & results may have some scientific interest.

I think that Feng shui and other "superstitions" may have scientific basis in certain cases.

What might the scientific basis of feng-shui be?

I considered some ways names may affect personalities, and also some possible reasons that names might have personality connections. But I don't think that a definite result is possible, even from statistics.

New Scientist magazine used to publish examples of people who's names matched their occupation in their humorous 'Last Word' section - they called it 'nominative determinism'. I don't know if any statistical research has been done to determine whether there is a significant effect - I imagine it would be difficult to define the boundaries for valid or recognisable name-occupation associations. But it's conceivable that a continuous priming effect during childhood might influence choices.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby life_sucks on January 19th, 2015, 2:58 pm 

I do not know much of Feng shui...
But I've seen it provide advice on architecture, Position of furniture, etc.
Those may have a scientific basis.
eg. Don't position uncovered bookshelf in bedroom.
Books gather dust. Dust causes illness, when inhaled. So, no bookshelf in bedroom.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby dlorde on January 19th, 2015, 3:20 pm 

life_sucks » January 19th, 2015, 6:58 pm wrote:I do not know much of Feng shui...
But I've seen it provide advice on architecture, Position of furniture, etc.
Those may have a scientific basis.
eg. Don't position uncovered bookshelf in bedroom.
Books gather dust. Dust causes illness, when inhaled. So, no bookshelf in bedroom.

Ah, I see. I didn't realise it dealt with stuff like bookshelves in bedrooms - that sounds quite contemporary.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby TheVat on January 19th, 2015, 4:38 pm 

A lot of feng shui is common sense interior design and decor, what I've learned of it.

I think Truman is a problematic name for a politician.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby Watson on January 19th, 2015, 5:36 pm 

Feng Shui is quite a bit more complicated than that, for those that accept it. I was curious about it so I studied up on it. But for me, that's it. Feng Shui is an umbrella word, covering many disciplines, like science or medicine covers many disciplines.
One aspect is the follow of chi energy throughout the space so that would involve the placement of furniture. The book case could be thought of as cutting edges interrupting smooth follow of the energy.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby dlorde on January 19th, 2015, 6:10 pm 

Watson » January 19th, 2015, 9:36 pm wrote:Feng Shui is quite a bit more complicated than that, for those that accept it. I was curious about it so I studied up on it. But for me, that's it. Feng Shui is an umbrella word, covering many disciplines, like science or medicine covers many disciplines.
One aspect is the follow of chi energy throughout the space so that would involve the placement of furniture. The book case could be thought of as cutting edges interrupting smooth follow of the energy.

Thanks, that sounds more the kind of thing I was expecting.

When I spent some time doing Tai Chi, the closest I could get - in my Western reductionist physicalist way - to a rationale for chi energy, was as a way to visualise the integrated application of all the significant physical and mental requirements (balance, control, focus, coordination, power, attention, speed, etc). I thought I saw some similarities between good 'control of chi' and the feeling of being 'in the zone' in sport. Of course, they said it was much more than that, and based on focusable 'natural energy' flowing through bodily meridians, which in my view doesn't make sense except as an imaginative metaphor.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby mayflow on January 19th, 2015, 7:25 pm 

Braininvat » January 18th, 2015, 7:02 pm wrote:I would be interested in a scientific study that found any predictive accuracy from astrology or numerology. We 9's are very skeptical of such pseudosciences. Seriously, folks, wouldn't the placement of my crib with respect to windows, heat vents, electrical devices, external sound sources, etc. have more effect on me than where the planets are or how the letters of my name add up when converted to integers?

Sun-sign astrology might make some sense if it were about seasonal effects in very early months on development. Especially if we all spent more of our lives outdoors and didn't have artificial lighting, central heat/AC, and such.



Oh so you are a nine too? I am as well. This is from a rather absurd and pretty unknown forum of my own, so expect probably the somewhat unusual...

http://exploringyourmind.forumotion.com ... e-number-9
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby Eclogite on January 19th, 2015, 8:07 pm 

life_sucks » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:58 pm wrote:Books gather dust. Dust causes illness, when inhaled. So, no bookshelf in bedroom.
A bedroom without books is like a life without meaning.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby mayflow on January 19th, 2015, 9:40 pm 

Eclogite » January 19th, 2015, 7:07 pm wrote:
life_sucks » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:58 pm wrote:Books gather dust. Dust causes illness, when inhaled. So, no bookshelf in bedroom.
A bedroom without books is like a life without meaning.



You my dear are a poet. Also I have no distrust of dust. Hehe, get it? Little rhymy thingy? Don't mind me if I seem a little dingy, as when it all boils down, life is not about winning some game but loving all and everyone the same, but just in uniquely different ways. I find dust as no exception to this rule, do you?
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby Hendrick Laursen on January 25th, 2015, 9:17 am 

If anyone's really interested in numerology and related stuff, I recommend "777(revised)" by Aleistar Crowley.(Though I myself couldn't understand a bit of it, and that is, indeed, the reason I recommend it. The more puzzling, the better.)

If you're lucky you'll see an excerpt of it below this line,
Image
Published without the courtesy of Aleistar Crowley. Heh, heh.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby parsoff on June 13th, 2015, 5:50 pm 

The alphabet like numbers don't grow out of the ground, that is why they are fiction.
The human use these human made knowledge that is used a few thousand ears. Before that was the birth of the solar system in the universe.

There is no evolutionary need of human made knowledge. Life or evolution is food related, you can survive without the alphabet or numbers.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby enedina on October 8th, 2015, 3:36 am 

Numerology can be best, and most simply explained as the study of numbers. But the simplicity ends there. To the occultist, numbers reflect more than quantity and are indicative of the nature of the cosmic plan of the universe. The letters of the Latin alphabet have a numeric value which can be deciphered to reveal relative cosmic vibrations. Chinese and Arabic civilizations have their forms of numerology as well. To know more about Numerology online browse http://www.psychicservicesonline.com/.

The added numbers of a date of birth when related to the numeric value of the letters in a name can illustrate some arcane interrelations that can be deciphered by an experienced practitioner. The number produced by an individual's date of birth and numeric equivalent of their name can illustrate details about character, life direction, motivations and talents.

Expert numerologists can use these numbers to make predictions as well as decide on the best moment to embark on an adventure, when to marry (and if you and your finance's numbers work well together) and how many kids would be the perfect number for you.

Many people turn to numerology to provide guidance in their lives. Not only can understanding the numbers in your name and birth date tell you more about who you are, but it can help you understand who you are truly meant to be. This knowledge can give you the confidence you need to undertake new challenges or to pursue your dreams. You can think of it a bit like a road map for your life. By giving you a direction to follow, numerology can help you reach your ultimate destination.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby Paul Anthony on October 8th, 2015, 8:12 pm 

When my paternal grandfather arrived at Ellis Island, the nice folks there misspelled his last name. Therefore, based on numerology, I am living with an incorrect number. I suppose if I were inclined to think of myself as a victim I could blame all my failures on that guy. :)
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby TheVat on October 8th, 2015, 11:45 pm 

I also had a paternal grandfather who got his last name misspelled at Ellis Island. So, Oskar Brandenvat became "Braininvat."

All I want to know is why I keep seeing 108. That number follows me everywhere.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby Paul Anthony on October 9th, 2015, 1:30 am 

Braininvat » Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:45 pm wrote:I also had a paternal grandfather who got his last name misspelled at Ellis Island. So, Oskar Brandenvat became "Braininvat."

All I want to know is why I keep seeing 108. That number follows me everywhere.


Of course. It happens because you are aware of that number. When you buy a new car you will see many cars just like it, even though you didn't notice them before. Of course, they were always out there. You just didn't have a reason to notice them.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby doogles on October 9th, 2015, 4:55 am 

I would be a numerologist's nightmare. Until I was in my early 20s, all my extracts of birth showed that I was officially born on 31st July 1931. In my early 20s I needed another extract for a new application for something and it came back showing 30th July 1931. I wrote back to the Registrar suggesting that they may have made a 'typo'. He responded by saying that they were infallible and that my official birth date was 30th July. Subsequently I found one of my earlier extracts and can now show two official extracts with two different dates.

When I was about 40 I spoke to my mother about it - only to be told that I was actually born in the early hours of the morning on August 1st. It was 1931 during the great depression and women in Melbourne still mistrusted hospitals - believing that if you went in for a birth, you would never come out - it was only five generations since the days of Sammulweiss. So I was delivered by a midwife in a private house and the baby bonus was to be removed as an economic measure at midnight on 31st July 1931. My midwife was a 'good sport' and I now have 3 birthdays every year.
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby TheVat on October 9th, 2015, 10:29 am 

Paul Anthony » October 8th, 2015, 11:30 pm wrote:
Braininvat » Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:45 pm wrote:I also had a paternal grandfather who got his last name misspelled at Ellis Island. So, Oskar Brandenvat became "Braininvat."

All I want to know is why I keep seeing 108. That number follows me everywhere.


Of course. It happens because you are aware of that number. When you buy a new car you will see many cars just like it, even though you didn't notice them before. Of course, they were always out there. You just didn't have a reason to notice them.


should have emoticonned, was jk. And yes, the attention effect is quite powerful. (108 was the mysterious sum on the sci-fi/fantasy series "Lost")

doogles, are Leos in the southern hemisphere actually like Aquarii in the northern? :-)
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Re: Numerology-Science or Fiction?

Postby Paul Anthony on October 9th, 2015, 12:49 pm 

Braininvat » Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:29 am wrote:
should have emoticonned, was jk. And yes, the attention effect is quite powerful. (108 was the mysterious sum on the sci-fi/fantasy series "Lost")



I should have caught that! Now, if you had said 42...
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