To the Youth in Europe and North America

General philosophy discussions. If you are not sure where to place your thread, please post it here. Share favorite quotes, discuss philosophers, and other topics.

Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Saeid on March 3rd, 2015, 2:14 pm 

Braininvat » March 3rd, 2015, 1:58 pm wrote:So, if we take an ancient religious text and remove all the nasty, cruel, intolerant stuff, then what's left is pretty nice and serves as a decent ethical guide to living? I guess one could say the same about most ancient text, be it the Ramayana, the Old Testament, or whatever. (The Lotus Sutra of S. Gautama, and a couple others, might be exceptions, as they seem to be more tightly focused on finding a path of both outward and inward peace)

I don't know. To me, it all sounds a bit like saying "Mein Kampf was a terrific spiritual meditation, if you just excise all that unpleasant stuff about the master race and world domination and so forth..."


You just say whatever you want without paying any attention what I said. It's no problem say whatever you want regardless whether it's really right or not. It's not a discussion it's just a try to win anyway. So, I don't see a need to repeat all I said at last posts.
I can only say this verse of Quran.
"As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. (6) Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom. "(2:6-7)
As you see the first thing that happens is that they don't believe. Then Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their ees there is a covering.
Saeid
 


Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby mtbturtle on March 3rd, 2015, 3:24 pm 

Saeid » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:14 pm wrote:
Braininvat » March 3rd, 2015, 1:58 pm wrote:So, if we take an ancient religious text and remove all the nasty, cruel, intolerant stuff, then what's left is pretty nice and serves as a decent ethical guide to living? I guess one could say the same about most ancient text, be it the Ramayana, the Old Testament, or whatever. (The Lotus Sutra of S. Gautama, and a couple others, might be exceptions, as they seem to be more tightly focused on finding a path of both outward and inward peace)

I don't know. To me, it all sounds a bit like saying "Mein Kampf was a terrific spiritual meditation, if you just excise all that unpleasant stuff about the master race and world domination and so forth..."


You just say whatever you want without paying any attention what I said. It's no problem say whatever you want regardless whether it's really right or not. It's not a discussion it's just a try to win anyway. So, I don't see a need to repeat all I said at last posts.
I can only say this verse of Quran.
"As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. (6) Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom. "(2:6-7)
As you see the first thing that happens is that they don't believe. Then Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their ees there is a covering.


Oh Braininvat has not and you are verging on false attacks and preaching, mindlessly quoting scriptures. reminds me of somebody else we banned recently for the same thing. You are Ansaralmahdi aren't you?
User avatar
mtbturtle
Banned User
 
Posts: 9555
Joined: 16 Dec 2005


Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby doogles on March 4th, 2015, 4:00 am 

mtbturtle, you could be right when you suggested to Saeid "You are Ansaralmahdi aren't you?"

I've said several times in this thread that Islam appears to have two faces. lol
User avatar
doogles
Active Member
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Location: BRISBANE


Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Hendrick Laursen on March 4th, 2015, 6:25 am 

doogles » March 1st, 2015, 9:58 pm wrote:On 1.3.2015 Saeid replied to Lomax and BadjerJelly “You talked about the hateful bits and a message of hatred in Quran. Please, give us your documents about your statemens. In which chapter and exact verse of it did you reach that conclusion. Lets talk about it specifically.”

The following are excerpts I found in the first 80 pages. I am an Atheist, which means that I am an infidel or unbeliever. These are not the phrases I would use in any document aiming to promote a ‘WAY OF PEACE”.

2:1 As for the unbelievers, it is the same whether or not you forewarn them; they will not have faith. God has set a seal upon their hearts and ears; their sight is dimmed and grievous punishment awaits them.
2:23 … then guard yourself against the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the unbelievers.
2:168 The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb and blind, they understand nothing.
2:174 God will neither speak to them nor purify them. Woeful punishment awaits them.
2:178 Believers, retaliation is decreed for you in bloodshed.
3:26 Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful – he that does this has nothing to hope for from God.
3:83 … those who lapse into unbelief … Their reward will be the curse of God, the angels, and all mankind; under it they shall abide forever. Their punishment shall not be mitigated, …
3:118 Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal.
3:148 We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers.
4:34 Men have superiority over women because God has made them superior to the other … Good women are obedient. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them in beds apart, and beat them. (Note that this only requires ‘fear’ of disobedience).
4:75 The true believers fight for the cause of God.
4:86 If they (deserters) desert you, put them to death wherever you find them.
4:91 Over such men We give you absolute authority (No just process?).
4:97 The unbelievers are your inveterate foe.
4:103 Seek out the enemy relentlessly.
5:11 (Koranic attitude to Jews and Christians). God made a covenant with the Israelites and raised among them 12 chieftains …… But because they broke their covenant We laid on them Our curse and hardened their hearts. They have tampered with words out of their context and forgotten much of what they were enjoined. You will ever find them deceitful, except for a few of them. But pardon them (the few?) and bear with them. God loves those who do good.
With those who said they were Christians We made a covenant also, but they too have forgotten much of what they were exhorted to do. Therefore We stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when God will declare to them all that they have done. (Doesn’t sound very neighbourly to me)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
These extracts tend to promote hatred and intolerance, wishes for the worst of fates in the ‘afterlife’ to those who leave the faith, and promote ‘punishments’ as forms of justice. There are no words suggesting discussions in case of misunderstandings’ there are no suggestions for fair trials’ there are no suggestions for possible compromises, as if guilt is based on perception or presumption.

The Koran is full of contradictions. For many of these exhortations to hatred and violence, I would be able to find a contradiction somewhere. But the very existence of the above passages does not promote Islam is a way of peace.

I expect you to find these contradictions Saeid, but the fact that you will need to find them suggests that Islam has two faces.


PLEASE DO CITE PRECISELY IF YOU'RE QUOTING FROM QURAN.
[The Universally accepted script of Quran is that of Medina, aka Uthmani Script]

1- It's not 2:1, it's 2:6
2- It's not 2:23, it's 2:24.
3- It's not 2:168, it's 2:171. (It goes on)
User avatar
Hendrick Laursen
Member
 
Posts: 576
Joined: 12 Mar 2014
Location: God's Green Earth
Blog: View Blog (6)


Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby SciameriKen on March 4th, 2015, 12:03 pm 

PLEASE DO CITE PRECISELY IF YOU'RE QUOTING FROM QURAN.
[The Universally accepted script of Quran is that of Medina, aka Uthmani Script]

1- It's not 2:1, it's 2:6
2- It's not 2:23, it's 2:24.
3- It's not 2:168, it's 2:171. (It goes on)



I don't understand the complaint here - is it that the Koran he is using is not the right one? Also - is it necessary to take an all caps tone in addressing this problem?
User avatar
SciameriKen
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 1446
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Location: Buffalo, NY


Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Hendrick Laursen on March 7th, 2015, 2:23 am 

Well,
"Citing" requires giving precise information.

PS-Sorry for having caused any disturbance, will cease using CAPS.
User avatar
Hendrick Laursen
Member
 
Posts: 576
Joined: 12 Mar 2014
Location: God's Green Earth
Blog: View Blog (6)


Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Hendrick Laursen on February 18th, 2020, 4:52 am 

Revisiting this thread,

The spiritual development and feeling "at peace" with our true self, may not be achievable just by ourselves in solitude. Like taking refuge in a desolate mountain's cave, leaving all other "distractions" behind. But, then spiritual nourishment and reaching your "peace" is so subjectively spectacular that one can't stop wondering whether these all mean the same thing. There's the "Heaven", "Perfect State", "Ultimate Grace/Bliss", etc, etc, but then there are so many discrepancies in the minutiae, and even the bigger picture that some may even say these places aren't the same.

Why not achievable in solitude? If any person has the slightest regard for the life of his fellow creatures (humankind), regardless of what separates them and focusing on what unites, one can't reach peace knowing other humans are dying/maimed/suffering. Not restricted to humans, the slightest touch of abuse towards life, and the environment we share, is unsettling, knowing that polluting the air, or releasing carcinogenic substances into the open waters now may equal slow-motion destruction of our earth, if not imminent and instantaneously, but surely. A fate that would actually happen hundreds, probably thousands of years from now, but does it make us any less guilty? Our reasoning has a propensity to infer causality from proximity, even coincidence. This has been shown not to be entirely true, and even gravely false at times.

Where does Islam stand in midst of all this? I believe the greatest testimony to what Islam has to offer, isn't what world leaders pro (like the original message in this thread) or con are spreading, nor most of the historical records, some specifically fabricated to justify misuse of power and authority, nor some verbal justifications. I believe, the greatest testimony to Islam's mission, is what happened to the people of the Arabic peninsula, specially Mecca and Medina during that brief period of Muhammad himself's life. That's the essence of Islam, as in practice.

So, it was Muhammad's new religion that broke the chains and outlawed the casts. Generated an economic revolution, introduced a new moral impetus, a new definition of human, gave a new worldview to then Saharra-dwelling Arabs that promised them not just green jungles and beautiful women in heaven, but meaning to their very existence. Muhammad broke the status quo, and delivered a ground-shaking turn to the history that survives to this day with over 1.7 billion adherents.

I wanna emphasize, one last time, that the true message of Islam deserves to be understood before making any augmentative statement, in which point I agree with the message that I then published here from that Ayatollah. It's time not to make everybody adhere to Islam, not to shove it down their throats,no, but to give them the explanation they deserve, not as a mission (or Da'wa as some call), but as a necessity for the truth.

Not only the youth of Europa and North America, not even only the youth, everybody deserves to know the truth about anything, be it Islam or be it something else.

I'm not an apologist in the sense that I'll justify corruptions and genocides, but have these happened during Islamic history? All I can say is why not? When some ordinary person reached absolute rule over the Islamic kingdom, for centuries they didn't call themselves Kings, but caliphs or Muhammad, why? To feast on people's faith. To pierce their fangs into people's flesh. To legitimize their rule as the appointee of Muhammad, as God's face on Earth (how many times have we heard of that). Court clerics and mufti's at their disposal, they could draw as many illustrious and idiosyncratic interpretations of Qur'an as they wanted, or more correctly as their boss wanted. Finding some sentences in the much-fabricated canon to justify, for example why caliph is entitled to every and any girl he would desire, he would of course marry them to silence the people, because caliph was also the chief shaman and mouthpiece, but how is that any different from corrupt rulers before and after them?

What I said above is just an example, out of many. These things have happened and it's now wonder how disparate and unique each interpretation of Islam has become turning into sects and schisms and sometimes new religions budding off.

And then there is the striking contrast between personalities held respected in Islam. There's people like Zubair, who after death had gathered personal wealth of people's capital that the gold of his wealth only was chopped by axes to get it divided between his heirs. (Well, gold is actually weighed in grams and other subtle weight units, and consider this in the setting that like 80% of the country were starving at the time), contrast him with Ali who was found to be penniless when he was assassinated, and didn't leave a single coin. (And he was the effective ruler of the world's richest country then).

I think it is the electrifying experience of Muhammad's life and his everlasting impression on people, turning some of the weakest oasis deserters into one of the greatest civilizations of the world; this is what needs to be understood.
User avatar
Hendrick Laursen
Member
 
Posts: 576
Joined: 12 Mar 2014
Location: God's Green Earth
Blog: View Blog (6)


Previous

Return to Anything Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 7 guests