To the Youth in Europe and North America

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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby BadgerJelly on March 1st, 2015, 5:08 am 

I think if this was written by someone less known it would be accepted more easily as a calm and reasonable statement about the flaws in media coverage and general political manipulation.

There is nothing written by the Ayatollah that I don't agree with. That is not to say I would agree with everything he says or does. I doubt I would 100% agree with anyone.

Anyone advocating self education is making a step in the right direction.

Note: I have traveled around a bit and met a number of people who have visited Iran. They say it is the best country they have been to with the nicest people and that media perceptions of the country in the west are biased. No country is perfect and if you look (not too hard at all) "your own" country has a number of horrendous flaws, past, present and future.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Saeid on March 1st, 2015, 8:35 am 

doogles » March 1st, 2015, 3:07 am wrote:Saeid

Thanks for sending that link again. Unfortunately it was just a series of disconnected short clips that were meaningless to me. It did not make any points for discussion.

I can only repeat the gist of what I said earlier in this thread. If, as an atheist I suddenly decided to embrace a religion, the last one I would adopt is Islam because of its current association with violence. Facts I’ve presented earlier in this thread indicate that Muslims have violently killed fellow Muslims by the millions since 1948, and continue to do so daily all over our planet.

I’ve expressed my opinion that maybe the Ayatollah Khomeini should be sending letters to Muslim youth all over the world, urging them to stop killing those of their own faith, for starters.

For that matter, what are the Ayatollahs of the world actively doing to show the rest of the world that their religion IS ‘The way of peace’? Show me the texts (of letters or sermons) they are preaching to members of their own faith to curb this ongoing slaughter of Muslims by Muslims (men, women and children) on a daily basis.

MAYBE IF THE AYATOLLAHS WERE SEEN TO BE GETTING THEIR OWN HOUSES IN ORDER SUCCESSFULLY, ISLAM WOULD CEASE TO BE CONSTANTLY “MISUNDERSTOOD” BY THE REST OF THE WORLD.



Why do you think whatever and whoever of Muslims do is Islam? Those who slaughter Muslims or anyone else are neither Moslems nor religious people at all. It's not just to judge about a religion because the actions of some people who call themselves religious. For example after the Japan nuclear bambardment no one said that christianity is bad.
You should search about the real tragedy which is happening around the world by the powers whose benefits would be saved if the people have a bad idea about Islam and real Moslems. They are the ones who try their best and encourage some stupid and poor people to do these cruel crimes to reach their own benefits.
On the other hand, you should not forget the western colonial power in order to dominate the Moslem world they chose the policy of the "divde and rule" and most of divisions and conflicts among Moslems are created and supported by western powers and this policy still continued.
Last edited by Saeid on March 1st, 2015, 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Saeid on March 1st, 2015, 8:41 am 

doogles » March 1st, 2015, 3:07 am wrote:Saeid

Thanks for sending that link again. Unfortunately it was just a series of disconnected short clips that were meaningless to me. It did not make any points for discussion.

I can only repeat the gist of what I said earlier in this thread. If, as an atheist I suddenly decided to embrace a religion, the last one I would adopt is Islam because of its current association with violence. Facts I’ve presented earlier in this thread indicate that Muslims have violently killed fellow Muslims by the millions since 1948, and continue to do so daily all over our planet.

I’ve expressed my opinion that maybe the Ayatollah Khomeini should be sending letters to Muslim youth all over the world, urging them to stop killing those of their own faith, for starters.

For that matter, what are the Ayatollahs of the world actively doing to show the rest of the world that their religion IS ‘The way of peace’? Show me the texts (of letters or sermons) they are preaching to members of their own faith to curb this ongoing slaughter of Muslims by Muslims (men, women and children) on a daily basis.

MAYBE IF THE AYATOLLAHS WERE SEEN TO BE GETTING THEIR OWN HOUSES IN ORDER SUCCESSFULLY, ISLAM WOULD CEASE TO BE CONSTANTLY “MISUNDERSTOOD” BY THE REST OF THE WORLD.


In part of Ayatollah Khamenei's letter to the western youth: "I would like to talk to you about Islam, particularly the image that is presented to you as Islam. Many attempts have been made over the past two decades, almost since the disintegration of the Soviet Union, to place this great religion in the seat of a horrifying enemy. The provocation of a feeling of horror and hatred and its utilization has unfortunately a long record in the political history of the West.

Here, I don’t want to deal with the different phobias with which the Western nations have thus far been indoctrinated. A cursory review of recent critical studies of history would bring home to you the fact that the Western governments’ insincere and hypocritical treatment of other nations and cultures has been censured in new historiographies.

The histories of the United States and Europe are ashamed of slavery, embarrassed by the colonial period and chagrined at the oppression of people of color and non-Christians. Your researchers and historians are deeply ashamed of the bloodsheds wrought in the name of religion between the Catholics and Protestants or in the name of nationality and ethnicity during the First and Second World Wars. This approach is admirable.

By mentioning a fraction of this long list, I don’t want to reproach history; rather I would like you to ask your intellectuals as to why the public conscience in the West awakens and comes to its senses after a delay of several decades or centuries. Why should the revision of collective conscience apply to the distant past and not to the current problems? Why is it that attempts are made to prevent public awareness regarding an important issue such as the treatment of Islamic culture and thought?

You know well that humiliation and spreading hatred and illusionary fear of the “other” have been the common base of all those oppressive profiteers. Now, I would like you to ask yourself why the old policy of spreading “phobia” and hatred has targeted Islam and Muslims with an unprecedented intensity. Why does the power structure in the world want Islamic thought to be marginalized and remain latent? What concepts and values in Islam disturb the programs of the super powers and what interests are safeguarded in the shadow of distorting the image of Islam? Hence, my first request is: Study and research the incentives behind this widespread tarnishing of the image of Islam."
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Lomax on March 1st, 2015, 10:25 am 

BadgerJelly » March 1st, 2015, 10:08 am wrote:I think if this was written by someone less known it would be accepted more easily as a calm and reasonable statement about the flaws in media coverage and general political manipulation.

But, as things stand, it was written by somebody we know to be a hypocrite.

BadgerJelly » March 1st, 2015, 10:08 am wrote:Note: I have traveled around a bit and met a number of people who have visited Iran. They say it is the best country they have been to with the nicest people and that media perceptions of the country in the west are biased. No country is perfect and if you look (not too hard at all) "your own" country has a number of horrendous flaws, past, present and future.

To criticise the Ayatollah is obviously not to criticise in general the members of the society of Iran, any more than to criticise David Cameron is to say that all Brits are pudgy, self-serving, lying, fracking charlatans. Indeed the biggest problem with the Khomeniite revolution is that it hijacked the efforts of the Iranian people to attain a greater degree of political dignity, and has them living in an antiquated theocracy well into the 21st century.

Saeid » March 1st, 2015, 1:35 pm wrote:Why do you think whatever and whoever of Muslims do is Islam? Those who slaughter Muslims or anyone else are neither Moslems nor religious people at all. It's not just to judge about a religion because the actions of some people who call themselves religious. For example after the Japan nuclear bambardment no one said that christianity is bad.

Besides the obvious fact that many of us have been criticising Christianity for centuries, those who dropped the bomb did not, to my knowledge, shout "GOD IS GREAT" as they did so. When people willing to die for a kinky afterlife shout "ALLAHU AKBAR" right before they fly an aeroplane into a densely populated building, or gun down an office full of cartoonists, we might infer something about their motives right there. Look: the Quran, just like the Bible, is large and messy and self-contradictory that you can find a message of hatred in it just as you can find a message of love, and you and the theologians can break your teeth on trying to reconcile it all, but you'll never convince the rest of us that the hateful bits aren't in there when we can read for ourselves that they are. If this means that those well-versed in the Quran will just use a biased reading of it to promote either peace or war as they choose, and that the less well-versed and more credulous will listen to them because they're afraid of angering their god, then you have one of the major problems with religion right there. The antidote isn't to piece together as loving an interpretation of the book as you possibly can, because you're still conceding to the likes of Khameini, Khomeini and bin Laden the myth that the book holds any moral authority at all. The antidote is to act like it's the 21st century and get out of this blind, fatuous, one-book-can-rule-your-life mentality and urge people to start thinking for themselves from the ground up, and from the top down.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Saeid on March 1st, 2015, 10:48 am 

Lomax » March 1st, 2015, 10:25 am wrote:
BadgerJelly » March 1st, 2015, 10:08 am wrote:I think if this was written by someone less known it would be accepted more easily as a calm and reasonable statement about the flaws in media coverage and general political manipulation.

But, as things stand, it was written by somebody we know to be a hypocrite.

BadgerJelly » March 1st, 2015, 10:08 am wrote:Note: I have traveled around a bit and met a number of people who have visited Iran. They say it is the best country they have been to with the nicest people and that media perceptions of the country in the west are biased. No country is perfect and if you look (not too hard at all) "your own" country has a number of horrendous flaws, past, present and future.

To criticise the Ayatollah is obviously not to criticise in general the members of the society of Iran, any more than to criticise David Cameron is to say that all Brits are pudgy, self-serving, lying, fracking charlatans. Indeed the biggest problem with the Khomeniite revolution is that it hijacked the efforts of the Iranian people to attain a greater degree of political dignity, and has them living in an antiquated theocracy well into the 21st century.

Saeid » March 1st, 2015, 1:35 pm wrote:Why do you think whatever and whoever of Muslims do is Islam? Those who slaughter Muslims or anyone else are neither Moslems nor religious people at all. It's not just to judge about a religion because the actions of some people who call themselves religious. For example after the Japan nuclear bambardment no one said that christianity is bad.

Besides the obvious fact that many of us have been criticising Christianity for centuries, those who dropped the bomb did not, to my knowledge, shout "GOD IS GREAT" as they did so. When people willing to die for a kinky afterlife shout "ALLAHU AKBAR" right before they fly an aeroplane into a densely populated building, or gun down an office full of cartoonists, we might infer something about their motives right there. Look: the Quran, just like the Bible, is large and messy and self-contradictory that you can find a message of hatred in it just as you can find a message of love, and you and the theologians can break your teeth on trying to reconcile it all, but you'll never convince the rest of us that the hateful bits aren't in there when we can read for ourselves that they are. If this means that those well-versed in the Quran will just use a biased reading of it to promote either peace or war as they choose, and that the less well-versed and more credulous will listen to them because they're afraid of angering their god, then you have one of the major problems with religion right there. The antidote isn't to piece together as loving an interpretation of the book as you possibly can, because you're still conceding to the likes of Khameini, Khomeini and bin Laden the myth that the book holds any moral authority at all. The antidote is to act like it's the 21st century and get out of this blind, fatuous, one-book-can-rule-your-life mentality and urge people to start thinking for themselves from the ground up, and from the top down.



Didn't you read the rest of my statement? I told you that: You should search about the real tragedy which is happening around the world by the powers whose benefits would be saved if the people have a bad idea about Islam and real Moslems. They are the ones who try their best and encourage some stupid and poor people to do these cruel crimes to reach their own benefits.
On the other hand, you should not forget the western colonial power in order to dominate the Moslem world they chose the policy of the "divde and rule" and most of divisions and conflicts among Moslems are created and supported by western powers and this policy still continued.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Lomax on March 1st, 2015, 11:44 am 

Saeid » March 1st, 2015, 3:48 pm wrote:Didn't you read the rest of my statement?

I will take it as a concession to the strength of my point that you are choosing not to answer it, but only to focus on a different point entirely.

Saeid » March 1st, 2015, 3:48 pm wrote:I told you that: You should search about the real tragedy which is happening around the world by the powers whose benefits would be saved if the people have a bad idea about Islam and real Moslems. They are the ones who try their best and encourage some stupid and poor people to do these cruel crimes to reach their own benefits.

Are you suggesting that the theocratic oppression across the middle east by Islamists, both within the state and without, is not "real" or that it is not a "tragedy"? The history of conflict between the Islamic world and the West is also very long and runs in both directions, including the Barbary wars and the rise of the Ottoman empire. It is at once self-pitying and patronising to pretend that aggression has never been instigated by Muslims, and that the tragedy is only "real" when it goes in one particular direction.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby BadgerJelly on March 1st, 2015, 11:51 am 

Lomax -

I simply don't like the tone of this thread.

Nothing more to say.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Saeid on March 1st, 2015, 2:38 pm 

Lomax » March 1st, 2015, 10:25 am wrote:
BadgerJelly » March 1st, 2015, 10:08 am wrote:I think if this was written by someone less known it would be accepted more easily as a calm and reasonable statement about the flaws in media coverage and general political manipulation.

But, as things stand, it was written by somebody we know to be a hypocrite.

BadgerJelly » March 1st, 2015, 10:08 am wrote:Note: I have traveled around a bit and met a number of people who have visited Iran. They say it is the best country they have been to with the nicest people and that media perceptions of the country in the west are biased. No country is perfect and if you look (not too hard at all) "your own" country has a number of horrendous flaws, past, present and future.

To criticise the Ayatollah is obviously not to criticise in general the members of the society of Iran, any more than to criticise David Cameron is to say that all Brits are pudgy, self-serving, lying, fracking charlatans. Indeed the biggest problem with the Khomeniite revolution is that it hijacked the efforts of the Iranian people to attain a greater degree of political dignity, and has them living in an antiquated theocracy well into the 21st century.

Saeid » March 1st, 2015, 1:35 pm wrote:Why do you think whatever and whoever of Muslims do is Islam? Those who slaughter Muslims or anyone else are neither Moslems nor religious people at all. It's not just to judge about a religion because the actions of some people who call themselves religious. For example after the Japan nuclear bambardment no one said that christianity is bad.

Besides the obvious fact that many of us have been criticising Christianity for centuries, those who dropped the bomb did not, to my knowledge, shout "GOD IS GREAT" as they did so. When people willing to die for a kinky afterlife shout "ALLAHU AKBAR" right before they fly an aeroplane into a densely populated building, or gun down an office full of cartoonists, we might infer something about their motives right there. Look: the Quran, just like the Bible, is large and messy and self-contradictory that you can find a message of hatred in it just as you can find a message of love, and you and the theologians can break your teeth on trying to reconcile it all, but you'll never convince the rest of us that the hateful bits aren't in there when we can read for ourselves that they are. If this means that those well-versed in the Quran will just use a biased reading of it to promote either peace or war as they choose, and that the less well-versed and more credulous will listen to them because they're afraid of angering their god, then you have one of the major problems with religion right there. The antidote isn't to piece together as loving an interpretation of the book as you possibly can, because you're still conceding to the likes of Khameini, Khomeini and bin Laden the myth that the book holds any moral authority at all. The antidote is to act like it's the 21st century and get out of this blind, fatuous, one-book-can-rule-your-life mentality and urge people to start thinking for themselves from the ground up, and from the top down.




You talked about the people(which are not real Moslems) shout ‘Allahu akbar” and do crimes too. But I told you before that it’s a cruel policy of western governments to give a bad idea about Islam. They want this happens in order to reach their benefits.It's their dirty plot so they created so many terrorist groups with the name of Islam and Moslems to direct people's viewpoints against Islam and true Moslems such as Ayatollah Khamenei and his true followers.
You talked about the hateful bits and a message of hatred in Quran. Please, give us your documents about your statemens. In which chapter and exact verse of it did you reach that conclusion. Lets talk about it specifically.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby mtbturtle on March 1st, 2015, 2:48 pm 

No true Scotsman would ever do such things.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Saeid on March 1st, 2015, 4:15 pm 


Yes, but unfortunately they are afew or unable to do anything.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby mtbturtle on March 1st, 2015, 4:21 pm 

Saeid » Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:15 pm wrote:

Yes, but unfortunately they are afew or unable to do anything.


You don't understand your comments about "not real Moslem" is the no true scotsman fallacy.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Saeid on March 1st, 2015, 4:50 pm 

mtbturtle » March 1st, 2015, 4:21 pm wrote:
Saeid » Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:15 pm wrote:

Yes, but unfortunately they are afew or unable to do anything.


You don't understand your comments about "not real Moslem" is the no true scotsman fallacy.


Yes, but I don't understand your claim or means.Explain it please.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby mtbturtle on March 1st, 2015, 5:44 pm 

Saeid » Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:50 pm wrote:[quote="
Yes, but unfortunately they are afew or unable to do anything.


You don't understand your comments about "not real Moslem" is the no true scotsman fallacy.[/quote]

Yes, but I don't understand your claim or means.Explain it please.[/quote]

Your assertions is that Muslim who do bad things like terrorists aren't real Muslims. What makes you think you get to pick and choose who is and is not "real" Muslim?
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Saeid on March 1st, 2015, 7:03 pm 

mtbturtle » March 1st, 2015, 5:44 pm wrote:
Saeid » Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:50 pm wrote:[quote="
Yes, but unfortunately they are afew or unable to do anything.


You don't understand your comments about "not real Moslem" is the no true scotsman fallacy.


Yes, but I don't understand your claim or means.Explain it please.[/quote]

Your assertions is that Muslim who do bad things like terrorists aren't real Muslims. What makes you think you get to pick and choose who is and is not "real" Muslim?[/quote]

It's Quran that chooses who is and is not a "real Moslem".
Quran:(9:125)
" But as for those in whose hearts is disease, it only addeth wickedness to their wickedness, and they die while they are disbelievers. "
So, those in whose hearts is disease, whether they are so called believers or disbelievers, they are disbelievers in reality anyway.
Last edited by Saeid on March 1st, 2015, 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Saeid on March 1st, 2015, 7:08 pm 

Lomax » March 1st, 2015, 10:25 am wrote:
BadgerJelly » March 1st, 2015, 10:08 am wrote:I think if this was written by someone less known it would be accepted more easily as a calm and reasonable statement about the flaws in media coverage and general political manipulation.

But, as things stand, it was written by somebody we know to be a hypocrite.

BadgerJelly » March 1st, 2015, 10:08 am wrote:Note: I have traveled around a bit and met a number of people who have visited Iran. They say it is the best country they have been to with the nicest people and that media perceptions of the country in the west are biased. No country is perfect and if you look (not too hard at all) "your own" country has a number of horrendous flaws, past, present and future.

To criticise the Ayatollah is obviously not to criticise in general the members of the society of Iran, any more than to criticise David Cameron is to say that all Brits are pudgy, self-serving, lying, fracking charlatans. Indeed the biggest problem with the Khomeniite revolution is that it hijacked the efforts of the Iranian people to attain a greater degree of political dignity, and has them living in an antiquated theocracy well into the 21st century.

Saeid » March 1st, 2015, 1:35 pm wrote:Why do you think whatever and whoever of Muslims do is Islam? Those who slaughter Muslims or anyone else are neither Moslems nor religious people at all. It's not just to judge about a religion because the actions of some people who call themselves religious. For example after the Japan nuclear bambardment no one said that christianity is bad.

Besides the obvious fact that many of us have been criticising Christianity for centuries, those who dropped the bomb did not, to my knowledge, shout "GOD IS GREAT" as they did so. When people willing to die for a kinky afterlife shout "ALLAHU AKBAR" right before they fly an aeroplane into a densely populated building, or gun down an office full of cartoonists, we might infer something about their motives right there. Look: the Quran, just like the Bible, is large and messy and self-contradictory that you can find a message of hatred in it just as you can find a message of love, and you and the theologians can break your teeth on trying to reconcile it all, but you'll never convince the rest of us that the hateful bits aren't in there when we can read for ourselves that they are. If this means that those well-versed in the Quran will just use a biased reading of it to promote either peace or war as they choose, and that the less well-versed and more credulous will listen to them because they're afraid of angering their god, then you have one of the major problems with religion right there. The antidote isn't to piece together as loving an interpretation of the book as you possibly can, because you're still conceding to the likes of Khameini, Khomeini and bin Laden the myth that the book holds any moral authority at all. The antidote is to act like it's the 21st century and get out of this blind, fatuous, one-book-can-rule-your-life mentality and urge people to start thinking for themselves from the ground up, and from the top down.



You talked about the hateful bits and a message of hatred in Quran. Please, give us your documents about your statemens. In which chapter and exact verse of it did you reach that conclusion. Lets talk about it specifically.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby mtbturtle on March 1st, 2015, 7:34 pm 

You don't understand your comments about "not real Moslem" is the no true scotsman fallacy.

Yes, but I don't understand your claim or means.Explain it please.

Your assertions is that Muslim who do bad things like terrorists aren't real Muslims. What makes you think you get to pick and choose who is and is not "real" Muslim?

It's Quran that chooses who is and is not a "real Moslem".

Quran:(9:125)
" But as for those in whose hearts is disease, it only addeth wickedness to their wickedness, and they die while they are disbelievers. "


The Quran isn't talking to us, you are and instead of admitting that some, a few, Muslims do bad things you are just trying to exclude them to deflect criticism. Muslims do do bad things don't they?
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman

No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing; this fallacy also applies to defining a term or criteria biasedly as to defend it from counterargument which can be identified as a biased, persuasive, or rhetorical definition. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them. Sentences such as "all members of X have desirable trait Y" then become tautologies, because Y becomes a requirement of membership in X.

The fallacy does not occur in defining a group or label narrowly to begin with, but in narrowing it by excluding evidence that contradicts an initially broad definition.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Saeid on March 1st, 2015, 11:03 pm 

mtbturtle » March 1st, 2015, 7:34 pm wrote:
You don't understand your comments about "not real Moslem" is the no true scotsman fallacy.

Yes, but I don't understand your claim or means.Explain it please.

Your assertions is that Muslim who do bad things like terrorists aren't real Muslims. What makes you think you get to pick and choose who is and is not "real" Muslim?

It's Quran that chooses who is and is not a "real Moslem".

Quran:(9:125)
" But as for those in whose hearts is disease, it only addeth wickedness to their wickedness, and they die while they are disbelievers. "


The Quran isn't talking to us, you are and instead of admitting that some, a few, Muslims do bad things you are just trying to exclude them to deflect criticism. Muslims do do bad things don't they?
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman

How do you know that Islam admite anybody to do bad things?
and
1-You just say things and conclude from it yourself without any evidence.
2- You never answered my questions but just say things the way you want.
3- You don't read the whole story of why some stupid and poor people are directed by western governments(which are guided through zionist lobbies) as the other religious or even irreligious people have been oppressed in different countries because of their interests. But you relate their actions to Islam.
4- I told you the reason that they are leaded through these lobbies is to make a bad picture of Islam, but you disregard it.
5- You just say something to blame Islam without any evidence of Quran(its holy book).
please read Ayatollah Khamenei's letter for once carefully without any prejudgement:
" Why does the power structure in the world want Islamic thought to be marginalized and remain latent? What concepts and values in Islam disturb the programs of the super powers and what interests are safeguarded in the shadow of distorting the image of Islam? Hence, my first request is: Study and research the incentives behind this widespread tarnishing of the image of Islam."
"Receive knowledge of Islam from its primary and original sources. Gain information about Islam through the Qur’an and the life of its great Prophet."
If you are very smart and just, please read his letter and answer those many questions that he has asked in it.


No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing; this fallacy also applies to defining a term or criteria biasedly as to defend it from counterargument which can be identified as a biased, persuasive, or rhetorical definition. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them. Sentences such as "all members of X have desirable trait Y" then become tautologies, because Y becomes a requirement of membership in X.

The fallacy does not occur in defining a group or label narrowly to begin with, but in narrowing it by excluding evidence that contradicts an initially broad definition.


We are talking about Islam you talk about scotsman all the time. Why? What is its relation? Please stop your fallacy.
I think we don't have any discussion with each other while you do these 5 or 6 things at above.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Positor on March 1st, 2015, 11:37 pm 

Saeid » March 2nd, 2015, 3:03 am wrote:We are talking about Islam you talk about scotsman all the time. Why? What is its relation?

See the linked wiki article in mtbturtle's post. The fallacy is called "No True Scotsman" because the original example involved a (fictitious) Scotsman. However, as the article explains:
The term "No True Scotsman" has since expanded to refer to anyone who attempts to disown or distance themselves from wayward members of a group by excluding them from it.

So if one says "No real Moslem would do such a thing", that is an example of the same fallacy.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Saeid on March 1st, 2015, 11:51 pm 

Positor » March 1st, 2015, 11:37 pm wrote:
Saeid » March 2nd, 2015, 3:03 am wrote:We are talking about Islam you talk about scotsman all the time. Why? What is its relation?

See the linked wiki article in mtbturtle's post. The fallacy is called "No True Scotsman" because the original example involved a (fictitious) Scotsman. However, as the article explains:
The term "No True Scotsman" has since expanded to refer to anyone who attempts to disown or distance themselves from wayward members of a group by excluding them from it.

So if one says "No real Moslem would do such a thing", that is an example of the same fallacy.


It's your opinion, however it's very strange that you think that way. Not even "no real Moslem but also no real realigious people do such a thing"and its a reality not fallacy.
It's probably not strange because you are probably an athiest. Please, if you want to talk about a religion, at first search about that religion through its holy book and then talk about the religious people and this point of why some of them do not do what their religion says. And I told you that there is a plot behind it which is planned by those whose interests are in it.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby doogles on March 2nd, 2015, 3:58 am 

On 1.3.2015 Saeid replied to Lomax and BadjerJelly “You talked about the hateful bits and a message of hatred in Quran. Please, give us your documents about your statemens. In which chapter and exact verse of it did you reach that conclusion. Lets talk about it specifically.”

The following are excerpts I found in the first 80 pages. I am an Atheist, which means that I am an infidel or unbeliever. These are not the phrases I would use in any document aiming to promote a ‘WAY OF PEACE”.

2:1 As for the unbelievers, it is the same whether or not you forewarn them; they will not have faith. God has set a seal upon their hearts and ears; their sight is dimmed and grievous punishment awaits them.
2:23 … then guard yourself against the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the unbelievers.
2:168 The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb and blind, they understand nothing.
2:174 God will neither speak to them nor purify them. Woeful punishment awaits them.
2:178 Believers, retaliation is decreed for you in bloodshed.
3:26 Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful – he that does this has nothing to hope for from God.
3:83 … those who lapse into unbelief … Their reward will be the curse of God, the angels, and all mankind; under it they shall abide forever. Their punishment shall not be mitigated, …
3:118 Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal.
3:148 We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers.
4:34 Men have superiority over women because God has made them superior to the other … Good women are obedient. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them in beds apart, and beat them. (Note that this only requires ‘fear’ of disobedience).
4:75 The true believers fight for the cause of God.
4:86 If they (deserters) desert you, put them to death wherever you find them.
4:91 Over such men We give you absolute authority (No just process?).
4:97 The unbelievers are your inveterate foe.
4:103 Seek out the enemy relentlessly.
5:11 (Koranic attitude to Jews and Christians). God made a covenant with the Israelites and raised among them 12 chieftains …… But because they broke their covenant We laid on them Our curse and hardened their hearts. They have tampered with words out of their context and forgotten much of what they were enjoined. You will ever find them deceitful, except for a few of them. But pardon them (the few?) and bear with them. God loves those who do good.
With those who said they were Christians We made a covenant also, but they too have forgotten much of what they were exhorted to do. Therefore We stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when God will declare to them all that they have done. (Doesn’t sound very neighbourly to me)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
These extracts tend to promote hatred and intolerance, wishes for the worst of fates in the ‘afterlife’ to those who leave the faith, and promote ‘punishments’ as forms of justice. There are no words suggesting discussions in case of misunderstandings’ there are no suggestions for fair trials’ there are no suggestions for possible compromises, as if guilt is based on perception or presumption.

The Koran is full of contradictions. For many of these exhortations to hatred and violence, I would be able to find a contradiction somewhere. But the very existence of the above passages does not promote Islam is a way of peace.

I expect you to find these contradictions Saeid, but the fact that you will need to find them suggests that Islam has two faces.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby mtbturtle on March 2nd, 2015, 8:50 am 

[quote="Saeid » Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:03 pm"]" Why does the power structure in the world want Islamic thought to be marginalized and remain latent? What concepts and values in Islam disturb the programs of the super powers and what interests are safeguarded in the shadow of distorting the image of Islam? Hence, my first request is: Study and research the incentives behind this widespread tarnishing of the image of Islam."{/quote]

No real Americans would do such things.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Saeid on March 2nd, 2015, 1:05 pm 

mtbturtle » March 2nd, 2015, 8:50 am wrote:
Saeid » Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:03 pm wrote:" Why does the power structure in the world want Islamic thought to be marginalized and remain latent? What concepts and values in Islam disturb the programs of the super powers and what interests are safeguarded in the shadow of distorting the image of Islam? Hence, my first request is: Study and research the incentives behind this widespread tarnishing of the image of Islam."{/quote]

No real Americans would do such things.


Yes, I agree with you no real American would do such things. But the question is that why the western governments influenced by the Zionist lobbies want to weaken real Moslems and Islam throughout the world. It is because of the lessons and orders in this religion to resist in front of oppressors.
Quran: (Al-Nahl-23)
"Assuredly Allah knoweth that which they keep hidden and that which they proclaim. Lo! He loveth not the proud. "
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby TheVat on March 2nd, 2015, 1:25 pm 

It is my impression that western societies only want to "weaken" the radical sects of Islam that encourage their members to strap on explosives and blow themselves up in crowded marketplaces, or other areas where there are lots of noncombatant persons. Or guide airplanes into skyscrapers (again, full of innocent people not in any combat role). Or bomb subways. Or kidnap noncombatants, then torture and kill them on an Internet video. Or set off suitcase nukes in major U.S. cities and then establish a North American Caliphate. These radical sects would seem to most rational people to be the sorts of sects that should be discouraged, especially when they have a penchant for recruiting all the sociopaths in the area and turning them onto mass murder.

As the postings of Doogles and others makes clear, the Quran expresses some primitive and brutal ideas about how to kill people whose beliefs differ from yours. Or how to oppress people who happen to own vaginas. This is a feature sadly apparent in many core religious documents. Usually, these suggestions of hatred and intolerance are grounded in primitive superstitions in which some powerful supernatural being has, for some weird reason, decided that only a fraction of the human race deserves love and compassion.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby SciameriKen on March 2nd, 2015, 4:47 pm 

Saeid » Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:05 pm wrote:
mtbturtle » March 2nd, 2015, 8:50 am wrote:
Saeid » Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:03 pm wrote:" Why does the power structure in the world want Islamic thought to be marginalized and remain latent? What concepts and values in Islam disturb the programs of the super powers and what interests are safeguarded in the shadow of distorting the image of Islam? Hence, my first request is: Study and research the incentives behind this widespread tarnishing of the image of Islam."{/quote]

No real Americans would do such things.


Yes, I agree with you no real American would do such things. But the question is that why the western governments influenced by the Zionist lobbies want to weaken real Moslems and Islam throughout the world. It is because of the lessons and orders in this religion to resist in front of oppressors.
Quran: (Al-Nahl-23)
"Assuredly Allah knoweth that which they keep hidden and that which they proclaim. Lo! He loveth not the proud. "


Regardless of the driving force of ISIS, there is an opinion that might be a bit dangerous that there is a black and white division between radicalized muslims and "good" muslims. The fact is that it is not christians or atheist that are being persuaded to join ISIS. I think in some cases muslim parents are quick to dismiss the risk of their children falling into ISIS hands because they feel that is Bad Islam and not my Islam.

That being said, I appreciate your perspectives Saeid, though I think you are rushing to judgement that there are "zionist lobbies" that are motivated to weaken Islam. Still, the actions of the Islamic State are confusing to me. They are obviously finically backed very well and are said to have this amazing propaganda machine. What I do not get is why they are so public with their atrocities?

With a different tact they could have easily swept through and claimed land for their islamic state, yet they deciding to antagonize the west and now their goals must be done while targets of a coalition air force. And they continue - it is as if they are purposely trying to draw the west (or even specifically the US) into another Mid east war. But why? Perhaps that is where the conspiracy theorist come in :D (yes I've heard this propaganda aids in their recruiting efforts - but to me these benefits just don't seem to outweigh the detriments)
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Saeid on March 2nd, 2015, 5:23 pm 

Braininvat » March 2nd, 2015, 1:25 pm wrote:It is my impression that western societies only want to "weaken" the radical sects of Islam that encourage their members to strap on explosives and blow themselves up in crowded marketplaces, or other areas where there are lots of noncombatant persons. Or guide airplanes into skyscrapers (again, full of innocent people not in any combat role). Or bomb subways. Or kidnap noncombatants, then torture and kill them on an Internet video. Or set off suitcase nukes in major U.S. cities and then establish a North American Caliphate. These radical sects would seem to most rational people to be the sorts of sects that should be discouraged, especially when they have a penchant for recruiting all the sociopaths in the area and turning them onto mass murder.


As the postings of Doogles and others makes clear, the Quran expresses some primitive and brutal ideas about how to kill people whose beliefs differ from yours. Or how to oppress people who happen to own vaginas. This is a feature sadly apparent in many core religious documents. Usually, these suggestions of hatred and intolerance are grounded in primitive superstitions in which some powerful supernatural being has, for some weird reason, decided that only a fraction of the human race deserves love and compassion.


It's a big lie that Quran encourages to kill people whose beliefs differ from ours. I mentioned that these orders
are truth and should be down if they fight with us. And it's not just to kill those non-moslems who fight with us(if we be real Moslems) but also we should respond and kill the so called Moslems who fight with us.
There is an order that fight with ones who fight with you as a believer and be in peace with those who are in peace with you as a believer. Islam never said to fight with ones who don't believe as you believe and it never said to be in peace with ones who believe as you believe.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby doogles on March 3rd, 2015, 3:37 am 

Saeid, You responded to Braininvat with the following statement “Islam never said to fight with ones who don't believe as you believe …. “

Please tell me what is meant by the following phrases in the Koran

4:97 The unbelievers are your inveterate foe.
4:103 Seek out the enemy relentlessly.

I’m assuming that the Koran is the word of Allah, spoken to Mohammed by the Angel Gabriel, and that the Koran represents Islam.
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Saeid on March 3rd, 2015, 5:28 am 

doogles » March 3rd, 2015, 3:37 am wrote:Saeid, You responded to Braininvat with the following statement “Islam never said to fight with ones who don't believe as you believe …. “

Please tell me what is meant by the following phrases in the Koran

4:97 The unbelievers are your inveterate foe.
4:103 Seek out the enemy relentlessly.

I’m assuming that the Koran is the word of Allah, spoken to Mohammed by the Angel Gabriel, and that the Koran represents Islam.



Of course Quran represents Islam. But please when you read it read the complete verse not just part of it. And also it's better to even read a verse before and a verse after that, too.

At both these verses God is talking about the unbelivers who fight with the believers.
(4:97)
"And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you(The unbelievers are your inveterate foe.)"(4:103)
"Relent not in pursuit of the enemy(Seek out the enemy relentlessly). If ye are suffering, lo! they suffer even as ye suffer and ye hope from Allah that for which they cannot hope. Allah is ever Knower, Wise"

God is given this order about the idolaters:
"And if any one of the idolaters Seeks refuge in you,[ O, Messenger ]Grant him, so that he may hear The Word of Allah and then escort him To where he can be secured, that is Because they are a people who lack Knowledge[ and their disbelief is due to Their ignorance ".(Tube: 6)
And do you know that:
Whom would God guide and what are their specifications?
Those who avoided worshipping false Deities and turned to Allah, seeking His Forgiveness, for them will be Glad-tidings, so[ O, Messenger ]give The good news to My obedient Worshippers!
Those who listen to different speeches And preaching[ regarding religions and Rites ]and follow the best among The variety, those are the ones whom Allah has guided and they are indeed Men of Wisdom(Zomar: 17-18)
And do you know that:
Is there any compulsion in accepting Religion? Why?
There is no compulsion in accepting Religion,[ since ]Truth has verily Become distinct from Falsehood[ in The Qur'an and through The Messenger and Miracles ](Baghare: 256)
Saeid
 


Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby doogles on March 3rd, 2015, 8:53 am 

Thanks for your commentsSaeid.

I did take those quotes out of context for the sake of brevity, but I tried not to 'pervert' the meaning when I did so. You said - "Of course Quran represents Islam. But please when you read it read the complete verse not just part of it. And also it's better to even read a verse before and a verse after that, too."

I went back even further than you did to find out whether the unbelievers in these sections were making unprovoked attacks. There is much talk back to 4:67 about believers marching to fight together without stragglers, but there is no suggestion that it’s a reaction to being attacked first. And then the antipathy towards non-believers is expressed.

4:71 The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan.

This sounds to me like pro-active antipathy toward unbelievers. In the next sections, there is much urging to fight and die for God.

4:82 … God will overthrow the might of the unbelievers.

There are no suggestion of non-believers attacking believers. There are then a few passages about hypocrites and how to deal with them on the way. Section 4:91 talks about believers who stay at home instead of going off to fight. This sounds as if the ‘fighting for the cause of God’ is away from the homes of believers, indicating proactive attacking, and not the defending of homes.

4:97 It is no offence for you to shorten your prayers when travelling the road if you fear that the unbelievers may attack you. The unbelievers are your inveterate foe.

Note it does not say ‘if you are under attack’. It says ‘if you fear you are under attack’. Then it goes on advising to keep praying and to always be on guard and –

4:103 Seek out the enemy (non-believers) relentlessly.

Obviously Saeid, we read the same texts but interpret them differently. Now if I were a budding young terrorist, I would say this section is encouraging me to go out and deal with the non-believers. The text in between these above sections promises good rewards in the afterlife for those who follow the advice and for those who die in the cause.

I read it as being belligerent to non-believers, but more importantly I do not interpret it any way as fostering ‘A WAY OF PEACE’.

In my second last post, I mentioned how the Koran has many contradictions, and appears to have TWO FACES.

Maybe a 21st century update is required to avoid the prevalent ‘misunderstandings of Islam’, that the 'true' Muslims keep referring to..
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby Saeid on March 3rd, 2015, 9:34 am 

doogles » March 3rd, 2015, 8:53 am wrote:Thanks for your commentsSaeid.

I did take those quotes out of context for the sake of brevity, but I tried not to 'pervert' the meaning when I did so. You said - "Of course Quran represents Islam. But please when you read it read the complete verse not just part of it. And also it's better to even read a verse before and a verse after that, too."

I went back even further than you did to find out whether the unbelievers in these sections were making unprovoked attacks. There is much talk back to 4:67 about believers marching to fight together without stragglers, but there is no suggestion that it’s a reaction to being attacked first. And then the antipathy towards non-believers is expressed.

4:71 The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan.

This sounds to me like pro-active antipathy toward unbelievers. In the next sections, there is much urging to fight and die for God.

4:82 … God will overthrow the might of the unbelievers.

There are no suggestion of non-believers attacking believers. There are then a few passages about hypocrites and how to deal with them on the way. Section 4:91 talks about believers who stay at home instead of going off to fight. This sounds as if the ‘fighting for the cause of God’ is away from the homes of believers, indicating proactive attacking, and not the defending of homes.

4:97 It is no offence for you to shorten your prayers when travelling the road if you fear that the unbelievers may attack you. The unbelievers are your inveterate foe.

Note it does not say ‘if you are under attack’. It says ‘if you fear you are under attack’. Then it goes on advising to keep praying and to always be on guard and –

4:103 Seek out the enemy (non-believers) relentlessly.

Obviously Saeid, we read the same texts but interpret them differently. Now if I were a budding young terrorist, I would say this section is encouraging me to go out and deal with the non-believers. The text in between these above sections promises good rewards in the afterlife for those who follow the advice and for those who die in the cause.

I read it as being belligerent to non-believers, but more importantly I do not interpret it any way as fostering ‘A WAY OF PEACE’.

In my second last post, I mentioned how the Koran has many contradictions, and appears to have TWO FACES.

Maybe a 21st century update is required to avoid the prevalent ‘misunderstandings of Islam’, that the 'true' Muslims keep referring to..


O.K. Now it's the time for you to know that there is two great thing which all the Moslems should know:
1- Osole Din(Basics of the Religion) which when you become a Moslem you should have been searched about it and accept it your self thoroughly. They are beliefs in the only God, His messanger , the Last Day, Imamat, and in Justice.
When you believed them then you should accept and obey the un-basics of the religion through the interprations of the especialists in the religion.
2-Fore Din( un-basics of the Religion) which contains all the orders(such as how and when to pray, to fast, when and why to fight or not to fight and with whom to fight or/and etc) in it which you should follow and obey it leaded by the Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and after him the Imams and now on by Jurisprudance scholars. Yes of course at each time there are especialists at each time who would interprate those un-basics of the religion upon the need of their time.
Islam is the last religion which doesn't need to be updated (even though Christianity and Judism have been updated by Islam)but we should use the knowledge of these people to avoid from misunderstandings.

Please refer to this book 'This is Islam'
written by: Dr. Ghadiri Abyane
http://bayanbox.ir/view/544882909020286 ... dition.pdf
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Re: To the Youth in Europe and North America

Postby TheVat on March 3rd, 2015, 1:58 pm 

So, if we take an ancient religious text and remove all the nasty, cruel, intolerant stuff, then what's left is pretty nice and serves as a decent ethical guide to living? I guess one could say the same about most ancient text, be it the Ramayana, the Old Testament, or whatever. (The Lotus Sutra of S. Gautama, and a couple others, might be exceptions, as they seem to be more tightly focused on finding a path of both outward and inward peace)

I don't know. To me, it all sounds a bit like saying "Mein Kampf was a terrific spiritual meditation, if you just excise all that unpleasant stuff about the master race and world domination and so forth..."
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