Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already know.

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Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already know.

Postby Gregorygregg1 on December 5th, 2015, 1:44 am 

Ok, here is how I see it. We have a choice to make as a species. Not as Americans or Mexicans or Chinese or Muslims, Jews or Christians. From the vantage point of my garden, I can see that the world has become a shit storm of hatred, self-righteous intolerance, greed, and violence...massacre of innocents in the name of religion, nationalism, and race...selfishness that denies the brotherhood of all humans in the interest of private wealth...hatred of those who do not look, act, or believe as we do...total disregard of any creature that walks or crawls on this planet, including other humans...something has to change.
What we need is an epiphany.

We must look at ourselves objectively. We are the dust of the Earth...Literally. What I am, what you are, what every creature on this Earth is, is composed of two things: EARTH and LIFE. Think about it. When you decide that Black people are not as worthy as White people, that Muslims are inferior to Christians or Jews...that it is OK that some species of Life become extinct so we can drive petroleum powered cars, have overheated houses, or green lawns in the desert. We need an epiphany.

What is wrong with this mind that cannot grasp that Life is consciousness. To be unconscious of myself as Life is to be unconscious of myself. I am Life and Earth, as are you. We must wake up and begin taking care of that which we are, or we will surely loose our opportunity for consciousness.

If we are unable to know ourselves as Earth and Life, we can simply learn to love our fellow humans as brothers and sisters. We may not like a brother or sister, but we would not attempt to do them harm, and we would certainly come to their aid in time of need.

There is so much need in the world, that individually one can do little to make a difference, but together there is nothing we cannot accomplish. We must en masse start to recognize our brothers and sisters, and the world will begin to improve immediately. If we fail to do this, humans will join the carrier pigeons.

Have an epiphany brothers and sisters. Life is consciousness.
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby wolfhnd on December 5th, 2015, 2:05 am 

I have been watching a documentary call Monkey Thieves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_Thieves

Those nasty little macaques behave a lot like we do. They form gangs, fight for territory, have friends and enemies, look for love and care for family.

What you have to be careful of when wishing that people express the better angels of their nature is forgetting that the better angels and devils come from the same instinctual well.
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby Serpent on December 5th, 2015, 11:45 am 

If we can domesticate a wolf and a boar, surely we should be able to domesticate a monkey!
Even if they are all inside us.
In fact, some people have always been able to curb their baser appetites and violent impulses. It's just that those are the very people guaranteed never to be in positions of command or influence - because they don't want power. The whole question of survival now turns on the will to renounce power.

And stop making so many people who all want so many things.
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby TheVat on December 5th, 2015, 12:47 pm 

Even if some of the science is kind of wobbly, I find Stephen Pinker's book, The Angels of Our Better Nature, of interest as it makes the case that human violence has decreased dramatically in the last few centuries. I think many are having the epiphany that Gregg writes about, but have trouble implementing it, especially in terms of trusting that others will go along with their epiphany. They may see others as their brothers and sisters, but fear that some of their siblings are crazy.
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby wolfhnd on December 5th, 2015, 10:59 pm 

Well I wasn't trying to be very subtle but the problem is and thus the solutions needs to be. The devil as they say is in the details.

To make a domesticated animal you make them dumber and more docile but in the case of humans that is not a good option. The same instincts that facilitate war facilitate twitter storms. If aggression was only limited to physical violence then eliminating it would have no negative impact. The most violent person in my home is my wife and I think that is fairly normal. It doesn't manifest itself in physical violence but in psychological and emotional violence characterized by emotional outbursts and nagging. You could say it is a kind of aggression that provides a positive motivational dimension to relationships. :-)

Make love not war is kind of a catchy idea until you realize that in the absence of war love is sufficient to bring about misery on an almost proportional scale. If love isn't accompanied by sufficient aggressive ambition to provide for hungry mouths things can go wrong very quickly . You can ask yourself how the summer of love turned into hell on earth but that is another long story. Just understand that the hippie movement destroyed itself from within when hedonism and drug addiction turned into crime and illness.

Perhaps the best example of a failed philosophy of peace and love is Christianity. It is an example of what happens when aggression is replace with belief in the future reward of a world of brotherly love. Early Christians were passive to the point of allowing themselves to be killed in large numbers without resistance. Later the philosophy was used to enslave large portions of the population in voluntary serfdom. I have a Russian friend who insist what is wrong with Russia is the lingering influence of the orthodox church which makes people passively accept poverty and the abuse of power.

While I think there is a link between aggression and attenuated rationality aggression is not a bad thing. Aggression just needs to be channeled into appropriate behavior and balanced by time to think. Many progressive movements become overly aggressive and irrational because like religion they hijack the brains of the participants not to serve the original purposes but because the "movement" becomes itself the purpose.

As someone once said here I'm a shallow thinker. Philosophy like science is at it's best when it simplifies complex issues
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby TheVat on December 6th, 2015, 1:27 pm 

The most violent person in my home is my wife and I think that is fairly normal. It doesn't manifest itself in physical violence but in psychological and emotional violence characterized by emotional outbursts and nagging.



Not sure that is normal. And what you perceive as her aggression may arise from what she perceives as aggression or passive-aggression in you. I have no idea, really, what the chemistry is there, but I know it usually takes two to tango.

Agree that religion tends to foster both extremes, passivity and aggression. I like zen, because it has never induced anyone to run into a town firing an AK47. Making tea, raking pea gravel, seeking a calm mind, whacking neophytes with a stick if they fall asleep meditating. Good balance.
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby Serpent on December 6th, 2015, 5:49 pm 

The word 'violence' gets attached to many kinds of non-violent activity. (Also, of course, we don't see our own assertive actions and defensive reactions as attenuated violence.) On the whole, I'd rather be nagged than water-boarded; I'd rather be subjected to an emotional outburst than a whip. This is a good example of how violence has already been brought under civilized control in one household. These people are domesticated - and I don't believe they have given up very much in primitive advantages to attain this level of peace. If they were thrown out into the wilderness, or attacked, they could still access their savage emotions.

I also don't believe that all domestic dogs are less intelligent than wolves or jackals. Obviously, many dogs are stupid, but many others are very sharp indeed. Their intelligence is re-directed to more specialized skills, just as many humans' are. And yet they can still get in touch with their aggressive nature.

Progress has been made... Let's hope we have time to make more.
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby wolfhnd on December 6th, 2015, 10:02 pm 

Serpent » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:49 pm wrote:The word 'violence' gets attached to many kinds of non-violent activity. (Also, of course, we don't see our own assertive actions and defensive reactions as attenuated violence.) On the whole, I'd rather be nagged than water-boarded; I'd rather be subjected to an emotional outburst than a whip. This is a good example of how violence has already been brought under civilized control in one household. These people are domesticated - and I don't believe they have given up very much in primitive advantages to attain this level of peace. If they were thrown out into the wilderness, or attacked, they could still access their savage emotions.

I also don't believe that all domestic dogs are less intelligent than wolves or jackals. Obviously, many dogs are stupid, but many others are very sharp indeed. Their intelligence is re-directed to more specialized skills, just as many humans' are. And yet they can still get in touch with their aggressive nature.

Progress has been made... Let's hope we have time to make more.


You say under control I say rechanneled. The importance of the distinction I'm sure is not lost on you.

http://rint.rechten.rug.nl/rth/dennen/a-ethol.htm

You can't reprogram instincts like you would a computer and are likely to due a poor job of rechanneling them if you think control is equivalent to suppression for possible future use. For example ritualized aggression can play a part in bonding between individual and groups which for obvious reason is likely to be more effective than intellectualizing behavior.
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby Serpent on December 6th, 2015, 10:58 pm 

wolfhnd » December 6th, 2015, 9:02 pm wrote:You say under control I say rechanneled. The importance of the distinction I'm sure is not lost on you.

http://rint.rechten.rug.nl/rth/dennen/a-ethol.htm

You can't reprogram instincts like you would a computer and are likely to due a poor job of rechanneling them if you think control is equivalent to suppression for possible future use. For example ritualized aggression can play a part in bonding between individual and groups which for obvious reason is likely to be more effective than intellectualizing behavior.


Rechannelling works. Sublimation works. Ritual expression works. So do discipline exercises. We've known this for 100,000 years. That's why people have contests, sporting events, mock battles and dramatic re-enactments of real ones. These are all evidence of domestication. We can keep the aggression under control, as long as everybody is relatively safe from want and feels that they have worth; that they matter to a community.

The wolf has already been tamed. The pig hasn't, quite, but we can find ways to check our innate greed if appropriately motivated. It's only the monkey that's still running amok.
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby wolfhnd on December 7th, 2015, 1:57 am 

Serpent » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:58 am wrote:
wolfhnd » December 6th, 2015, 9:02 pm wrote:You say under control I say rechanneled. The importance of the distinction I'm sure is not lost on you.

http://rint.rechten.rug.nl/rth/dennen/a-ethol.htm

You can't reprogram instincts like you would a computer and are likely to due a poor job of rechanneling them if you think control is equivalent to suppression for possible future use. For example ritualized aggression can play a part in bonding between individual and groups which for obvious reason is likely to be more effective than intellectualizing behavior.


Rechannelling works. Sublimation works. Ritual expression works. So do discipline exercises. We've known this for 100,000 years. That's why people have contests, sporting events, mock battles and dramatic re-enactments of real ones. These are all evidence of domestication. We can keep the aggression under control, as long as everybody is relatively safe from want and feels that they have worth; that they matter to a community.

The wolf has already been tamed. The pig hasn't, quite, but we can find ways to check our innate greed if appropriately motivated. It's only the monkey that's still running amok.


Domestication requires careful breeding.......
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby Eclogite on December 7th, 2015, 3:30 am 

wolfhnd » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:57 am wrote:Domestication requires careful breeding.......
The care applied need not be conscious.
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby Gregorygregg1 on December 7th, 2015, 12:42 pm 

A change in human behavior must be conscious. There is something called path behavior which you may observe in other species. I had a neighbor who's dog patrolled the back yard. After a few months he had worn a very precise path in the grass. Path behavior refers to any thoughtlessly repeated behavior, whether phisical, intellectual or emotional. Those who exhibit path behaviors like automatic aggression in confrontational situations, anger toward others based on differences of any nature, and lust to possess more than one can possibly use, can all be observed in instinctive animal behavior. The difference between animals and humans is purported to be that we are able to direct our behaviors rationally. This works if we are trained to do so: when sailors are escaping from a submarine, they are trained to blow air out as they rise to keep from injuring their lungs with expanding air. Instinct tells them to hold their breath. Those who overcome instinct have a better chance of survival. When we know why we must exhibit behaviors contrary to our instincts, and are successful, we can survive as a species.

Continuing the present path behavior of our species will not result in survival. We must consciously change if we want to avoid becoming the victims of path behavior. It is imperative that we become conscious as a species. That means a change of perspective. When I see myself as Greg, I am subject to the emotional baggage of my social conditioning and the path behavior of my species. When I perceive myself as Life, I cannot hold to the same path. It is the most simple way to change perspective to one that has a better chance for the survival of our species, and Life on Earth.
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby TheVat on December 7th, 2015, 1:29 pm 

"When I perceive myself as Life..." Sounds rather Buddhist. I like it.
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby Eclogite on December 7th, 2015, 5:01 pm 

Gregorygregg1 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:42 am wrote:A change in human behavior must be conscious.
I should like to see citations that would justify that statement. My limited knowledge of psychology, primate behaviour and several decades of observing fellow humans suggests that it is incorrect.
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby Gregorygregg1 on December 7th, 2015, 7:06 pm 

I cannot give you a citation, but there appears to me to be an innate resistance to change in most humans...even if the change might lead to a happier, healthier life. This resistance to change is the basis of path behavior.
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby Serpent on December 7th, 2015, 7:15 pm 

Eclogite » December 7th, 2015, 2:30 am wrote:
wolfhnd » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:57 am wrote:Domestication requires careful breeding.......
The care applied need not be conscious.


http://www.tor.com/2012/04/18/sons-and-decisions-sheri-teppers-the-gate-to-womens-country/

Anyway, I wasn't referring to eugenics: that takes far longer than we have, and we'd probably mess it up. It was just a casual remark about self-knowledge and discipline. The wolf, pig and monkey parts of the human psyche are metaphors, not actual animals.
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby wolfhnd on December 7th, 2015, 8:23 pm 

Serpent » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:15 pm wrote:
Eclogite » December 7th, 2015, 2:30 am wrote:
wolfhnd » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:57 am wrote:Domestication requires careful breeding.......
The care applied need not be conscious.


http://www.tor.com/2012/04/18/sons-and-decisions-sheri-teppers-the-gate-to-womens-country/

Anyway, I wasn't referring to eugenics: that takes far longer than we have, and we'd probably mess it up. It was just a casual remark about self-knowledge and discipline. The wolf, pig and monkey parts of the human psyche are metaphors, not actual animals.


It was a good post I was just pulling your chain.
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby wolfhnd on December 7th, 2015, 8:43 pm 

"Well you know we all want to change the world"

"But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow"

The real danger in peace and love movements is that they get cooped by the type of people who caused the problems in the first place. I think that is true of Christianity in particular but every peaceful revolution suffers the same fate in various ways. The other thing they have in common is that often the strongest proponents become part of the problem as their popularity and status increases.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/10/11/th ... illionaire
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Re: Move along, nothing to see here that you don't already k

Postby Serpent on December 8th, 2015, 12:27 am 

The Sun wouldn't be my first choice of sources for sound information, and Ezra Levant wouldn't even be my 47th choice of pundit. (Check the side-bar.)
This may or may not be an accurate account of what-all Suzuki does with the money he's earned in a long and successful show-biz career. Assuming we actually knew enough to judge, we may or may not approve of his business dealings. We do know that nobody has ever nominated him fro sainthood - that's just Levant being nasty. But even assuming all of the allegations are true and fair.....
.... how does it contradict the scientific accuracy of his forecasts and advice?

Tycho Brahe had a gilded silver nose. Therefore, his measurements of planetary movements must be wrong.
Shoot the messenger, if you must - we're used to it. But read the letter, fcs.
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