Human Nature

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Human Nature

Postby _A_ on May 29th, 2016, 10:37 pm 

Before we a journey into the heart of human nature let's first understand the method of any Definition, because to Define is also to limit and reduce a Phenomenon (Action) into a Noumenon (idea). The human specie has long ago invented, developed, and used language and writing to communicate, as such requiring definitions to recall and recognize new and foreign ideas. The process of definition in its most deeply rooted context is Codification and Code. Writing, words, letters, languages, linguistics, symbols, marks, etc. are all forms of Code. It doesn't matter the particular language, or even if a formal language at all. Even cutting into a tree, to mark a path through a dense forest, enacts the same process of Codification. Thus words act as the cut upon the tree. Words, sentences, this paragraph forms a solid idea. A pathway through a thick forest.

Codification:

To begin to define Actions (phenomena), is to reduce them (Reality) into a word, symbol, or a thing (Idea). The universe is infinite, but the human mind reduces the universe into a finitude, in a desperate and vain attempt "to know, to understand, to discover, to learn" about existence. This produces some results and effects but never the absolute goal, To Know about existence. The Ideal is never apprehended. Because the infinite cannot be reduced to the finite. The human mind cannot bridge the gap. The mind pivots on a paradox, that consciousness is produced from the body (Finite) but looks outward and reflects upon the universe (Infinite). Thus the mind can consider 'Yourself' either, finite or infinite, resulting in Duality.

Some people believe that there are limits in existence (Finity), more scientific and realistic.

Others believe there are no limits (Infinity), more spiritual and idealistic.


But the process is evident. A human experiences life and memorizes events. From these recollections he attempts to write them down and define experience. It is through this method that Code appears. Language, communication, text, and symbolism all cross the bridge of duality back and forth. The experiences are real; but the interpretations of those experiences are less so and necessarily more ideal. When a human is very intelligent, artistic, and a great writer then he more masterfully connects the real with the ideal, re-presenting an accurate account of an experience.

Thus human experiences are Codified into words, resulting in an abundance of following Definitions.
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Re: Human Nature

Postby _A_ on May 29th, 2016, 11:29 pm 

Authority:

A presumed authority stands behind any definition; and it is no simple nor easy task to presume authority when it comes to words, terms, ideas, and ideologies which many people value, defend, and uphold. Thus definition and redefinition are political actions. The definer is one who presumes a state of truth, representation of reality, and who ought to be heard and listened to, rather than shouted down, interrupted, and silenced via whatever means.

Thus Human Nature is a great complication to define, let alone discuss. Humanity upholds many different definitions, authorities, and experiences of such. Even any individual can claim some degree of authority for him/herself. To speak/write is also to represent a unique Perspective that cannot be copied. Thus human nature withholds a wide variety of differing experiences, personalities, behaviors, and composition.

To begin an exposition of human nature implies this aforementioned small degree of authority. Everybody, who is human, has a stance and position that may or may not conflict with another, much agreement and disagreement abound. What one person says or claims about humanity is not another's claim. One person's human "Right" maybe at odds with another.
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Re: Human Nature

Postby zetreque on May 30th, 2016, 2:01 am 

Interesting. I like the word perspective myself. Authority has perspective which is why each person has their own authority.

I would like to point out however that animals have language, but lack the codification you speak of. Even then, I think there are some animals that do have minimal codification (I will have to get back to this with examples when I remember them but maybe think of cuttlefish or cameleons.). I don't see humans as all that much more advanced than many animals and sometimes less advanced. I see a spectrum of life and consciousness with humans at one end of it. To define "Human Nature" one would have to draw a line separating that part of this spectrum of awareness and consciousness. Even if you isolated humans, there is a spectrum of awareness you can find usually related to level of education (be it formal or self).
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Re: Human Nature

Postby _A_ on May 30th, 2016, 10:56 pm 

zetreque » May 30th, 2016, 1:01 am wrote:Interesting. I like the word perspective myself. Authority has perspective which is why each person has their own authority.

There are always degrees of authority, from very little to a lot. A child has very little authority, especially with the inability to speak and write yet. These skills are taught, educated, and honed over time. As a child grows, matures, becomes more powerful, and assertive, then authority increases as well. Authority is also a function age, power, wisdom, and skill of communication in the case of ideas, writing, and philosophy.

Authority also exists by specialization and function. One person may have authority in warfare, a military man, while another has authority in science, a professor.


zetreque » May 30th, 2016, 1:01 am wrote:I would like to point out however that animals have language, but lack the codification you speak of. Even then, I think there are some animals that do have minimal codification (I will have to get back to this with examples when I remember them but maybe think of cuttlefish or cameleons.). I don't see humans as all that much more advanced than many animals and sometimes less advanced. I see a spectrum of life and consciousness with humans at one end of it.

The simplest forms of codification and code are marks in the ground, into rocks, on trees, etc. Animals communicate emotions by growls, shrieks, howls, grunts, etc. Code is symbolism. Humanity eventually developed the Alphabet (Alpha-Beta) as a system of letters to 'build' our words. Every word has a history of usage, grammar, syntax, meaning, resulting in Linguistics. Math is its own language as well, based on quantities, physics, geometry, and other quantifiable data.

Through language humanity has evolved much further than any other mammal on earth. Humanity has the special ability to pass knowledge, experiences, and wisdom from a generation millenniums ago to today, that other animals just don't have. Animals must pass on memories, instincts, and reflexes genetically rather than "memetically". Humans do both, pass on a genetic lineage (family history) and also a cultural lineage (ideas, ideology, political theories, philosophers, wisdom).


zetreque » May 30th, 2016, 1:01 am wrote:To define "Human Nature" one would have to draw a line separating that part of this spectrum of awareness and consciousness. Even if you isolated humans, there is a spectrum of awareness you can find usually related to level of education (be it formal or self).

It seems easiest and quickest to relate that to age as a function. Awareness of any organism, especially humanity, is contingent on their stage of physical development. A mature adult reaches its highest "cognitive ability" and power. A young person has not developed to that point. An older person eventually degenerates and loses momentum after decades of aging.
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Re: Human Nature

Postby zetreque on May 30th, 2016, 11:05 pm 

_A_ » Mon May 30, 2016 7:56 pm wrote:
Through language humanity has evolved much further than any other mammal on earth. Humanity has the special ability to pass knowledge, experiences, and wisdom from a generation millenniums ago to today, that other animals just don't have. Animals must pass on memories, instincts, and reflexes genetically rather than "memetically". Humans do both, pass on a genetic lineage (family history) and also a cultural lineage (ideas, ideology, political theories, philosophers, wisdom).


Animals do pass on knowledge. One such example comes to mind is dolphins passing on... I can't remember at the moment. It was some method of capturing fish I think.

I see a quick jump in the spectrum between not making physical marks for communication and making them, your codification, but I still don't see a clear distinction between humans and animals. Humans are just more-so on the extreme side of a few spectrums.
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Re: Human Nature

Postby Eclogite on May 31st, 2016, 10:12 am 

Interesting concepts are strengthened through the fire of challenge. Please perceive my questions and observations in that light.
_A_ » Mon May 30, 2016 2:37 am wrote:Before we a journey into the heart of human nature let's first understand the method of any Definition, because to Define is also to limit and reduce a Phenomenon (Action) into a Noumenon (idea).
Or, to define is to accurately describe the limits that already exist in relation to a phenomenon. I think it unlikely that you would assert that phenomena do not have limits. (If you do, I should like to see the justification for such an assertion.) Therefore, you have it backwards. Does that invalidate any of your later conclusions?

In what way is a description and explanation a reduction? Rather it seems to complement the phenomenon, rather than reducing it.

_A_ » Mon May 30, 2016 2:37 am wrote: The human specie has long ago invented, developed, and used language and writing to communicate, as such requiring definitions to recall and recognize new and foreign ideas. The process of definition in its most deeply rooted context is Codification and Code. Writing, words, letters, languages, linguistics, symbols, marks, etc. are all forms of Code. It doesn't matter the particular language, or even if a formal language at all. Even cutting into a tree, to mark a path through a dense forest, enacts the same process of Codification. Thus words act as the cut upon the tree. Words, sentences, this paragraph forms a solid idea. A pathway through a thick forest.
Is that a long winded way of saying that language is symbolic? If not, what is your point?

_A_ » Mon May 30, 2016 2:37 am wrote: The universe is infinite, but the human mind reduces the universe into a finitude, in a desperate and vain attempt "to know, to understand, to discover, to learn" about existence.
The universe may not be infinite. The matter is open to serious question.

What makes you feel that approaching a large puzzle in small pieces is a desperate action?

And, given the immense success we have had in a couple of centuries at learning much about the universe, what justifies calling the attempt vain?


Zetereque has also pointed out your error in thinking animals do not pass on information. Cultural differences are noted between distinct chimpanzee populations. I agree that in this regard humans have made much more of cultural acquisition and development, but this is a quantitative, not a qualitative difference.
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Re: Human Nature

Postby zetreque on May 31st, 2016, 12:54 pm 

Killer Whales have been evolving in cultural groups. I'm not sure the video is accurate in that this is the first time we have seen this. Maybe first time with genetics.

Killer whale evolution is shaped by their culture
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Re: Human Nature

Postby uninfinite on June 1st, 2016, 12:47 am 

In the book the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy - human nature was summed up in two words: mostly harmless!

What two words would you use to sum human nature?

Would A say we're cunning linguists?!
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Re: Human Nature

Postby zetreque on June 1st, 2016, 12:55 am 

Here is the article that spurred the above video I referenced.

Genome-culture coevolution promotes rapid divergence of killer whale ecotypes
Nature Communications 7, Article number: 11693 doi:10.1038/ncomms11693
Received 19 July 2015 Accepted 18 April 2016 Published 31 May 2016
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/16053 ... 11693.html

iirc that mostly harmless was from a more advanced alien's perspective.
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Re: Human Nature

Postby _A_ on June 3rd, 2016, 12:08 pm 

In/finite:

The difference between infinite and finite is a matter of limitation. What is limited or unlimited in nature? What can be known and comprehended by the human mind? First consider that the mind and brain is itself limited by many factors. An organism only has so much memory, so much sensual data processing, so much room for perceptions, so much execution of behaviors, like walking, running, balance, and coordination. Behaviors and mental functions all have a cost in terms of nourishment and nutrients. Thus if the brain is limited then how can any notion a person has, be a true recognition and interpretation of infinity?

The answer is rather simple: anything that a human recognizes as infinite, absolute, and unlimited, may not be so according to the mental limitations of that same person. In other words, the mental realm is just as limited by restrictions as the physical world. And limitations manifest most obviously by a state of 'Ignorance'. There always remain Unknowns about existence. Even if a person, a human, were to know exponentially more and have exponentially more cognitive and mental power than everybody else, a great intellect and genius would still be prone to err, mistakes, limitations, and flaws.

Thus there is no "perfect" access to the Infinite. Everybody and everything is firmly grounded in the Finite, in reality, in nature. There are limits although intellectually evolved animals (humans) have the tendency to want to break down all limits. Males and children, in particular, detest the idea of limitations. It is an affront to the ideal of Freedom that limits exist in the universe. And so it's obvious that much of what humanity does, and labors toward, is an ideal of freedom such that limits are broken down whenever and wherever they appear.

But you don't have to recognize and understand a limit in order for it to exist and to restrict you. This is the truth of ignorance. Ignorance is by definition that which a person cannot know. Always beyond your reach. And when it comes to ignorance, limitation and freedom become meaningless.

Ignorance allows humanity to have faith in the unknown. That the universe can be infinite or finite.


So Authority, is based on a limit, of a person's intellect, knowledge, and capabilities. One person is capable of this. Another is capable of that.
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Re: Human Nature

Postby Eclogite on June 3rd, 2016, 12:51 pm 

Hello _A_, will you be responding to my own observations and questions shortly?
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Re: Human Nature

Postby parsoff on June 5th, 2016, 4:53 am 

what if you see the human nature as genetics?
a package of DNA

the question 'when is there no more human nature?'
when the genetics are not passed on
then there is no more 'human nature'

from that you can say that there is only 'human nature' if genetics are passed on
so there is a new package of DNA

DNA is not in control of human
it is a biological process
a human does not control it's eye color, length, hair color
and a human also does not control the life time 'human nature' holds, around 75 years

it becomes clear that human has to live with it's own 'human nature'
to create another 'human nature' is a decision it can control
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Re: Human Nature

Postby _A_ on July 12th, 2016, 11:35 am 

Eclogite » May 31st, 2016, 9:12 am wrote:In what way is a description and explanation a reduction? Rather it seems to complement the phenomenon, rather than reducing it.

Phenomena is unlimited compared to the limitations of the human mind, brain, or consciousness of any given organism. Consciousness, brain power, has a limit. Any given individual or organism can only 'know' and become aware of so much at a given time. The more intelligent an organism is, indicates, the more conscious it will become. Consciousness is also a function of time (Physics). All conscious organisms, Intellects, naturally and instinctively place limits upon the universe and existence when none are apparent or inherent.

This is the reason why, and the cause, that many humans insert 'God' as an ultimate beginning, or ending, to time itself.


Eclogite » May 31st, 2016, 9:12 am wrote:what is your point?

My point is what 'Symbolism' does. Symbols are used to 'Represent' and re-depict Nature. Thus language is an abstraction (Reduction) of Nature.


Eclogite » May 31st, 2016, 9:12 am wrote:The universe may not be infinite. The matter is open to serious question.

What makes you feel that approaching a large puzzle in small pieces is a desperate action?

And, given the immense success we have had in a couple of centuries at learning much about the universe, what justifies calling the attempt vain?

Because there is no real standard, marker, measurement, or quantification of "Gains" of human intellect, culture, or political "Progress" ~ when humanity uses its own markers and justifications. It's hypocritical and counter-intuitive to define human progress (Evolution) by human standards. Instead progress is an Intuition. Humanity "feels" that it has progressed, but, compared to what or whom?


Eclogite » May 31st, 2016, 9:12 am wrote:Zetereque has also pointed out your error in thinking animals do not pass on information. Cultural differences are noted between distinct chimpanzee populations. I agree that in this regard humans have made much more of cultural acquisition and development, but this is a quantitative, not a qualitative difference.

All animals and organisms pass on 'information' in the form of genetics. But humanity passes on information directly through advanced systems of symbolism and language (Culture). There's a difference of passage and communication. Genes are direct and closer to nature. Memes are indirect and furthest from nature, thus most Artificial and "Unnatural".
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Re: Human Nature

Postby zetreque on July 12th, 2016, 1:21 pm 

_A_ » Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:35 am wrote:
Eclogite » May 31st, 2016, 9:12 am wrote:Zetereque has also pointed out your error in thinking animals do not pass on information. Cultural differences are noted between distinct chimpanzee populations. I agree that in this regard humans have made much more of cultural acquisition and development, but this is a quantitative, not a qualitative difference.

All animals and organisms pass on 'information' in the form of genetics. But humanity passes on information directly through advanced systems of symbolism and language (Culture). There's a difference of passage and communication. Genes are direct and closer to nature. Memes are indirect and furthest from nature, thus most Artificial and "Unnatural".


We already addressed that.
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Re: Human Nature

Postby _A_ on July 13th, 2016, 11:18 am 

parsoff » June 5th, 2016, 3:53 am wrote:DNA is not in control of human
it is a biological process
a human does not control it's eye color, length, hair color
and a human also does not control the life time 'human nature' holds, around 75 years

it becomes clear that human has to live with it's own 'human nature'
to create another 'human nature' is a decision it can control

Humans do "Control" genetic processes through breeding, reproduction, and sex. Females choose which genes will pass and which (males) will be 'blocked' from breeding. If a female denies a male passage (sex) into a new generation then some genetic traits die off and become extinct. Immortality, the indefinite continued passage of specific gene types, is accessed through females and the womb.
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Re: Human Nature

Postby _A_ on July 13th, 2016, 11:21 am 

zetreque » July 12th, 2016, 12:21 pm wrote:We already addressed that.

Not sufficiently, we have not drawn out the differences between genetic (hardware) and memetic (software) biological information.

Animals cannot create culture in the same degree animals cannot write sophisticated symbols, an alphabet, books, and literacy. Humans can pass a literal message between centuries and millenniums, while animals cannot.
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Re: Human Nature

Postby zetreque on July 13th, 2016, 11:25 am 

_A_ » Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:21 am wrote:
zetreque » July 12th, 2016, 12:21 pm wrote:We already addressed that.

Not sufficiently, we have not drawn out the differences between genetic (hardware) and memetic (software) biological information.

Animals cannot create culture in the same degree animals cannot write sophisticated symbols, an alphabet, books, and literacy. Humans can pass a literal message between centuries and millenniums, while animals cannot.


I don't want to repeat myself but you have to think about a spectrum. One end of it is advanced symbols communication and memes, on the other end is none. Humans are just another animal that happens to be far on one side of the spectrum. The world isn't black and white as many people want to think it is. There are many shades of gray.
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Re: Human Nature

Postby vivian maxine on September 10th, 2016, 1:08 pm 

Code = "a system of symbols, letters or words used to transmit messages. "Symbols". A dog marking his territory is coding. A lion, with his rather brutal way of marking his pride, is coding. Coding is leaving a message that is understood by those who should be informed or warned. I cannot find any dictionary that says coding has to be in writing - although I'll agree that using letters would probably require writing; words would not. But every definition that I find says coding is a system of leaving a message. Animals - some animals - do leave messages in their own way.
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