Right and Wrong: Are they same or really different

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Re: Right and Wrong: Are they same or really different

Postby Athena on August 19th, 2016, 1:29 pm 

Serpent » August 18th, 2016, 6:46 pm wrote:Same as we had in Canada, maybe? We got the better of the deal: all those competent, stalwart Loyalists, a lot of hard-working, ambitious ex-slaves, a reasonably stable government and, eventually, a democracy, with all its flaws, still less compromised than the US version.
It wouldn't have worked for any colonies whose secessionist elite were not English.
Just as well, though: I wouldn't like to be all one federation of North America.


That looks like food for thought. There is sooo much I do not know!

Closer to the subject of right and wrong being the same thing. I am feeling like I have gone over a deadly waterfall and survived. What I thought was good, was causing a problem, and what I thought was really bad, now looks like something that may transform my life in a very positive way. I am a bit unnerved and think I need to apologize for my occasional bad behavior and thank people for their part in what I hope will be a positive change.

As @Vivian highlighted the thread is about right and wrong, not good and bad and it is amusing how we think of them as the same thing. I just realized this thread is a piece of a puzzle that fits into my personal dilemma. Will I survive this mind blowing day or have a complete mental down and wind up an asylum? Being right is not equal to being good. Like I now get why Emperors with titles of good and the ones with terrible in the title, are the opposite of their titles. Sometimes being bad is good, because it makes the country stronger and progress is made, But those with the title of "good" lead to weakness and deterioration.

If I get a better grasp of this Right and Wrong and Good and Bad thing, might I be able to be right without being bad? But we can not be wrong and good at the same time. Only right and good or right and bad. Help, I am trapped in this intellectual knot.
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Re: Right and Wrong: Are they same or really different

Postby Paul Anthony on August 19th, 2016, 1:53 pm 

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

There is no absolute "good". It is defined by religions and politics and the things our parents taught us. And everyone, it seems, has a different definition.

"Right" may be more definitive because it can be identified after the fact by the outcome, but how can we identify it without the benefit of hindsight? Perhaps we can't, but we can come close by forward thinking. No action should be taken before considering the possible consequences. We might still be proven "wrong" eventually, but if we have made a good-faith effort to think clearly and unselfishly we might be forgiven for making a "bad" decision without being a bad person.
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Re: Right and Wrong: Are they same or really different

Postby TheVat on August 19th, 2016, 6:57 pm 

There are concepts like kindness and unselfishness (as PA just used) that, while not pinpointing an absolute good, do seem to be very widely held to lay a foundation for right action. Perhaps it's when the concepts are respected only selectively, e.g. "I will be kind to dogs, but murder all the Jews," or "I shall act unselfishly....on behalf of all my political cronies and donors!" Partial application seems to produce a lot of wrong.
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Re: Right and Wrong: Are they same or really different

Postby Paul Anthony on August 19th, 2016, 7:24 pm 

Braininvat » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:57 pm wrote:There are concepts like kindness and unselfishness (as PA just used) that, while not pinpointing an absolute good, do seem to be very widely held to lay a foundation for right action. Perhaps it's when the concepts are respected only selectively, e.g. "I will be kind to dogs, but murder all the Jews," or "I shall act unselfishly....on behalf of all my political cronies and donors!" Partial application seems to produce a lot of wrong.


Oh, yeah. Partial application has a long and storied past. According to the Bible, there were ten commandments that were inviolable. On was "Thou shalt not kill", Isn't it interesting that the Israelites interpreted that to mean "Thou shalt not kill anyone from your own tribe". They had no qualms about killing other people. In fact, they convinced themselves that the same God who gave them the commandment also instructed them to kill their neighbors. ;)
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Re: Right and Wrong: Are they same or really different

Postby Serpent on August 19th, 2016, 8:19 pm 

That god was their own tribal god - enemy to all the other tribal gods. It was understood that any rules he made, any blessings and favours he handed out, were for the Jews alone. I think the Babylonians and Canaanites had the same attitude to their gods; certainly the Egyptians didn't consider any other culture civilized or worth respecting.
Oddly, the Romans were tolerant of other religions, even to the point of including the local deities of conquered peoples in their own pantheon - though with some Roman adaptation. I imagine empire-building taught them that it's a whole lot easier to govern colonies that don't have their whole belief-system and rituals taken away. Perhaps this is why they made wiser, broader, more generally applicable civil laws. That wasn't the worst thing they left behind...
(... you know what was)
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Re: Right and Wrong: Are they same or really different

Postby DragonFly on August 20th, 2016, 11:38 pm 

Right and wrong as good and evil would seems to be that when one's or a culture's 'goods' come to be firm then those others not doing the 'good' might be labeled as 'evil', but this arrangement would seem to be relative and perhaps therefore but of flawed goods.
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Re: Right and Wrong: Are they same or really different

Postby Serpent on August 21st, 2016, 10:33 am 

DragonFly » August 20th, 2016, 10:38 pm wrote:Right and wrong as good and evil would seems to be that when one's or a culture's 'goods' come to be firm then those others not doing the 'good' might be labeled as 'evil', but this arrangement would seem to be relative and perhaps therefore but of flawed goods.

Good action is generally that which puts the interest of the community before one's personal interest. Bad action is generally considered that which diminishes the survival potential of the community.
Right and Wrong are concepts that set the good and bad of any particular community in a legal code, or raise it one authority level higher and turn it into a religious, mystical canon. It's at this level that "evil" enters, and it has no corresponding extreme on the positive side, since that's where the deity would reside.
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Re: Right and Wrong: Are they same or really different

Postby Athena on August 21st, 2016, 11:09 am 

DragonFly » August 20th, 2016, 9:38 pm wrote:Right and wrong as good and evil would seems to be that when one's or a culture's 'goods' come to be firm then those others not doing the 'good' might be labeled as 'evil', but this arrangement would seem to be relative and perhaps therefore but of flawed goods.


I think from the beginning of China's culture, the concern was being in harmony with nature. The Eyptians and others put a high importance on being in harmony with nature and avoiding chaos/destruction.

The Mayan saw misfortune as part of the cycle and they planned for this cycling, and according to Hose Arguelles, the Mayan held a concept of our consciousness transitioning. His ideas might not be compatible with our understanding of reality, but they allow for ups and downs, and progressive change, This might be better than religions with a good and evil point of view and attempt to keep everything in a holding pattern as though the consciousness of the past were the best possible consciousness.
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Re: Right and Wrong: Are they same or really different

Postby Athena on August 21st, 2016, 11:24 am 

Good action is generally that which puts the interest of the community before one's personal interest. Bad action is generally considered that which diminishes the survival potential of the community.
Right and Wrong are concepts that set the good and bad of any particular community in a legal code, or raise it one authority level higher and turn it into a religious, mystical canon. It's at this level that "evil" enters, and it has no corresponding extreme on the positive side, since that's where the deity would reside.


Who or what is the controlling force? The story of Adam and Eve tell us trouble begins with human desire for knowledge, and this follows the eastern concern for order and avoiding trouble. But that story begins with a Sumerian story of humans being created to keep a river in its banks so it doesn't eat the goddess's plants, making humans a force for the good. And especially in Athens comes the idea that knowledge improves the changes that we will do the good and not the bad.

Zorocasterianism divides good and evil and stresses the light is knowledge and the darkness is ignorance.



I have a preference of knowledge over superstition and ignorance, because without it we can destroy our planet in our effort to have the good life.
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Re: Right and Wrong: Are they same or really different

Postby Biosapien on August 25th, 2016, 12:30 am 

Athena: "Zorocasterianism divides good and evil and stresses the light is knowledge and the darkness is ignorance"

I am just trying to understand how you call light is knowledge and the darkness is ignorance. Causing for doing anything good we don't generally need any knowledge, we don't cause any harm if we sit without doing anything, but in order to not to cause any harm or bad or evil things to others we surely the knowledge. So i think we primarily need knowledge, not to do good thing rather not letting the bad things better to say undesired things to happen in the first place. Now i believe the so called good or bad is nothing but an outcome of both Desired and Undesired events.
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Re: Right and Wrong: Are they same or really different

Postby Athena on August 25th, 2016, 3:28 pm 

Dualism is almost universial and I am not the one who originated the ideas of which I speak. For many ancient civilizations the dualism was opposing forces of chaos and order. Laugh, I am thinking of one young lady who was 99% the force of chaos. A typical teenager resisting all the rules and making her life very chaotic. Now if the largest portion of your population is younger than 30 years of age, it can be a real challenge to achieve harmony and cooperation. When people get older their reasoning improves and having a few rules makes sense. I am not sure but this need to get some agreements on how we should and should not behave, seems to have lead to story telling and often the stories were about destruction and creation and associated light with goodness and dark with evil and the unknown.

Western tradition comes out of the Enlightenment, which is the revival of scientific and liberal thinking originating in Greece and especially Athens. The Dark Ages was a period of being cut off from the knowledge of what we call ancient civilizations today. There was plenty of religion but almost no intellectual growth.
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