Emotions and higher social order

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Re: Emotions and higher social order

Postby wolfhnd on August 21st, 2017, 4:11 pm 

Braininvat » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:54 pm wrote:Guess I fall somewhere between Eclo and Athena, in this regard. Some old people have wisdom to offer others. Some have only narrow ideas in which they have been entrenched since age 30. It really depends on the individual person and how they open themselves up to learning and the rich variety of the human condition. Ask yourself who you would rather have dinner with, both in their late 60s: David Duke or David Letterman?


As an adult Duke but I'm glad he wasn't my grandfather :-)

In any case we have to assume that the hypothetical grandparent we are talking about is not a toxic individual. How we would deal with politics and religion in the context of this thread is an interesting side issue.

So how does the young person separate the wheat from the chaff?
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Re: Emotions and higher social order

Postby Athena on August 21st, 2017, 4:40 pm 

Eclogite » August 21st, 2017, 12:14 am wrote:
Athena » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:14 pm wrote:I think that is a negative opinion, and I associate sadness with that, and perhaps some hostility because of the aggressive language. But the more I think I on what you said, the more I wonder why you said it?
Of course you think it is a negative opinion. The majority of my exchanges with you have been to argue that you conflate contrary opinions with negative opinions. You assume that because you are questioned on a point that the questioner disagrees with you (and therefore has a contrary opinion and therefore a negative opinion and therefore should be ignored or castigated).

Don't associate sadness with my remarks, but rather the wry smile that crosses my face when I'm taking the piss. You are correct about the hostility. Since you have seen hostility in so many of my posts where none existed I thought it was time to include a little of the real thing.

So, why did I write it. You had taken an extreme position that implied all old people had something useful to contribute, that they had wisdom. I presented the alternate position, not because I believe it, but as antidote to your - dare I say it - self righteous approach to knowing what is best. My own position is more aligned, probably exactly, with Braininvat's.

Athena » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:14 pm wrote:I think age has much to do with want we think. I am 70 and while some may be older, I wonder why you assume I am much younger than you?
I was essentially agreeing with your proposition that wisdom increases with age and felt that you still had quite a way to go.

Athena » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:14 pm wrote:I am reading a philosophy book written by a man, I am not sure I agree with him? He seems to say we should put ourselves first and not worry about others think of us, and I think there is good reason for a woman to put the needs to her husband and children first, and that includes thinking about the opinions of others. I know a young woman who thinks it would be great to walk around in men's briefs like Captain Underpants this Halloween. I don't think such behavior will benefit her children and that there could unwanted consequences for her children. Her behavior is illogical, considering she explains when we read books about socially inappropriate behavior to children, we tell them it is not okay to behave so inappropriately, and then argues in favor of her inappropriate behavior on a day that is for the fun of children. Might that behavior result in people shunning her and her children? Or is it wise for her to not care what people think of her and her family? Might her behavior and judgment have something to do with depending on welfare? I think the male philosophers who say the opinion of others doesn't matter, might be wrong?
Well, I don't know where the young woman lives. If she is in Riyadh such proposed behaviour would be seriously injurious to the wellbeing of herself and her family. If she lives in a hippy commune in California, such behaviour would not be socially inappropriate.

More to the point, you consider such behaviour socially inappropriate. She may not. I understand that during Mardi Gras some of the normal restrictions of society are relaxed. She may view Halloween in the same way and be seeking to teach her children an important, nuanced lesson.

You really need to open your mind more Athena and entertain the possibility that some of your beliefs are wrong.


Well, I read line after line about me, but can we get back on topic? Do you have anything that is on topic and might you support your argument with some kind of research or other empirical information? Something like this...

The Importance of Grandparents. According to Dr. Karl Pillemer of Cornell University, the relationship between grandparents and their grandchildren is second in emotional importance only to the relationship between parent and child. Children benefit when grandparents are involved in their lives.Oct 22, 2013
10 Reasons Grandparents Matter More than Ever - A Place for Mom
http://www.aplaceformom.com/blog/10-22- ... e-than-eve


I am glad you can imagine some environments where unusual behavior is acceptable. My opinion does not matter, but the effect on the children and society as a whole is in question. What happens to the life opportunities of children, who do not learn how to be socially appropriate? If we want individuals to be good citizens capable of finding adequate employment and who do not add more children to the social burden of the state (welfare), are there some rules of nature that need to be followed? Might grandparents have a role to play, and please consider the information in the link before answering.

It might help if we identify my beliefs, and then give the reason for saying they are wrong.

I never thought I was a conservative, but in my later years I do see the value of social agreements and preparing children for adulthood. I have learned children do not just grow up and become adults, but they become as dependent, or rebellious, or successful as they learn to be. I have observed self-limiting self-images such as identifying with being a member of a group who believes they are persecuted such as Jew, Blacks, Native Americans, or the poor, or people who identify with people who have had substance abuse problems. Even dropping out of college seems to be a matter of self-identity and believing one does not belong in college. The latest information about White Supremacist says these people have low self-esteems and are easily recruited by white supremacist groups that give them a sense of purpose and value, and I am sure the same can be said for those who join Muslim radicals. Failure to raise children well gets bad results and this can become a burden to the state or even a national tragedy. I don't think that is where I intended to go with this thread, but it does seem a natural flow. I know, as I was listening to news stories, I was thinking if we just agreed to be respectful and to protect the dignity of others, we would resolve a whole lot of social problems. Being respectful of others includes not defiantly flaunting social customs.

Ever since I was a child I have wondered why is it some who flaunt the rules rise to popular success while others crash to the bottom of the pecking order. I still do not know the answer to that question, but I think grandparents can help the young succeed.
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Re: Emotions and higher social order

Postby Eclogite on August 21st, 2017, 5:46 pm 

Athena » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:40 pm wrote:Well, I read line after line about me, but can we get back on topic? Do you have anything that is on topic and might you support your argument with some kind of research or other empirical information? Something like this...

The Importance of Grandparents. According to Dr. Karl Pillemer of Cornell University, the relationship between grandparents and their grandchildren is second in emotional importance only to the relationship between parent and child. Children benefit when grandparents are involved in their lives.Oct 22, 2013
10 Reasons Grandparents Matter More than Ever - A Place for Mom
http://www.aplaceformom.com/blog/10-22- ... e-than-eve


I am glad you can imagine some environments where unusual behavior is acceptable. My opinion does not matter, but the effect on the children and society as a whole is in question. What happens to the life opportunities of children, who do not learn how to be socially appropriate? If we want individuals to be good citizens capable of finding adequate employment and who do not add more children to the social burden of the state (welfare), are there some rules of nature that need to be followed? Might grandparents have a role to play, and please consider the information in the link before answering.

It might help if we identify my beliefs, and then give the reason for saying they are wrong.

I never thought I was a conservative, but in my later years I do see the value of social agreements and preparing children for adulthood. I have learned children do not just grow up and become adults, but they become as dependent, or rebellious, or successful as they learn to be. I have observed self-limiting self-images such as identifying with being a member of a group who believes they are persecuted such as Jew, Blacks, Native Americans, or the poor, or people who identify with people who have had substance abuse problems. Even dropping out of college seems to be a matter of self-identity and believing one does not belong in college. The latest information about White Supremacist says these people have low self-esteems and are easily recruited by white supremacist groups that give them a sense of purpose and value, and I am sure the same can be said for those who join Muslim radicals. Failure to raise children well gets bad results and this can become a burden to the state or even a national tragedy. I don't think that is where I intended to go with this thread, but it does seem a natural flow. I know, as I was listening to news stories, I was thinking if we just agreed to be respectful and to protect the dignity of others, we would resolve a whole lot of social problems. Being respectful of others includes not defiantly flaunting social customs.

Ever since I was a child I have wondered why is it some who flaunt the rules rise to popular success while others crash to the bottom of the pecking order. I still do not know the answer to that question, but I think grandparents can help the young succeed.



Once again I failed to communicate with you. I'll try it more direct terms. (If you really thought that was all about you, you need to take another look, then another, until you get it.)

I have no doubt whatsover that grandparents can play an important role in raising children.
I have no doubt that old people in general can continue to make important contributions to society.
I also have no doubt that some grandparents should not be allowed within a hundred miles of their grandchildren.
Or, that some old people should be wholly and completely ignored.

Also, your narrow mindedness is of relevance because you appear to assume that your standards are the correct ones; that you can distinguish between appropriate an inappropriate behaviour.

You stated "if we just agreed to be respectful and to protect the dignity of others, we would resolve a whole lot of social problems. " The problem is Athena, based upon your actions and words in many threads, respectful behaviour will be defined by you; dignity will be defined by you and anyone who disputes your definitions is clearly disrespectful and without dignity.

So, by all means, let us as grandparents entusiastically support our grandchildren, not by imposing our sense of appropriateness on them, but by helping them develop as vital human beings. And let's contribute to society, not by demanding it listen because we are old and have wisdom, but because we offer practical solutions to pertinent problems in a clear manner.
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Re: Emotions and higher social order

Postby Athena on August 21st, 2017, 6:05 pm 

wolfhnd » August 21st, 2017, 2:11 pm wrote:
Braininvat » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:54 pm wrote:Guess I fall somewhere between Eclo and Athena, in this regard. Some old people have wisdom to offer others. Some have only narrow ideas in which they have been entrenched since age 30. It really depends on the individual person and how they open themselves up to learning and the rich variety of the human condition. Ask yourself who you would rather have dinner with, both in their late 60s: David Duke or David Letterman?


As an adult Duke but I'm glad he wasn't my grandfather :-)

In any case we have to assume that the hypothetical grandparent we are talking about is not a toxic individual. How we would deal with politics and religion in the context of this thread is an interesting side issue.

So how does the young person separate the wheat from the chaff?


Brainvats comment about David Duke or David Letterman, got me totally sidetracked! I spent the rest of the day following news links, starting with an explanation of David Duke. Can we drop down to Wolfhnd's comment about a toxic grandparent? What are the qualities of a toxic person, versus one who befits others? That is very much on topic.

I imagine the first human groups lived pretty much by cunning and brute force, not so different from other apes. Later, however, people started turning to the most capable man in town to resolve conflicts and make judgments that everyone obeyed. Eventually, this becomes a system of laws. As our numbers increase we experience less freedom and greater control by policy and laws. All social animals have to weigh what is most important, self-interest or the group. Humans tip further and further into social control over the individual.

Wolfhnd, has very interesting things to say and self-identity and our social position and our emotions. We can see the human drama playing out with Trump's behaviors and how people react to him. Some are horrified and are afraid that like Hitler, Trump has made the thugs bold, while others have a totally different reaction to Trump, believing him to be a great leader and liberator. Clearly, emotions are involved. How we identify ourselves as individuals and also as citizens of the US are involved.

I have not seen a category for sociology so we tend to think in terms of psychology rather than sociology, but we all operate in groups and subgroups, and our emotions are a reaction to our positions in the groups and subgroups. Unlike animals who just react to life, humans supposedly think about themselves and others, and to a large degree, create their reality. So maybe we should ask what are the qualities of a toxic human and what are the qualities of good leaders? How do we separate the shaft from the wheat?
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Re: Emotions and higher social order

Postby Athena on August 21st, 2017, 6:12 pm 

[quote="Eclogite »
I have no doubt whatsover that grandparents can play an important role in raising children.
I have no doubt that old people in general can continue to make important contributions to society.
I also have no doubt that some grandparents should not be allowed within a hundred miles of their grandchildren.
Or, that some old people should be wholly and completely ignored.

You stated "if we just agreed to be respectful and to protect the dignity of others, we would resolve a whole lot of social problems. " The problem is Athena, based upon your actions and words in many threads, respectful behaviour will be defined by you; dignity will be defined by you and anyone who disputes your definitions is clearly disrespectful and without dignity.


What is respect and what is dignity?

So, by all means, let us as grandparents enthusiastically support our grandchildren, not by imposing our sense of appropriateness on them, but by helping them develop as vital human beings. And let's contribute to society, not by demanding it listen because we are old and have wisdom, but because we offer practical solutions to pertinent problems in a clear manner.


I am in agreement with that.

I have noticed you spell some words differently and I am wondering if our cultures might be different too?
From state to state cultures can vary, cultures between rural areas and the city can vary, and an age difference can also result in value differences. There does appear to be something causing an emotional conflict between us. Your wording appears to be an attempt to drive home a point that is not purely intellectual, or I am just reading an imaged emotion into your post?
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Re: Emotions and higher social order

Postby Eclogite on August 22nd, 2017, 6:54 am 

Athena » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:12 pm wrote:What is respect and what is dignity?
My entire point is that, based upon your many posts in this forum, you appear to believe your definitions of respect and dignity, and only your defintions, are valid. And the ironic thing is that that posturing is disrespectful and undignified.

Athena » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:12 pm wrote:I have noticed you spell some words differently and I am wondering if our cultures might be different too?
Spell them differently? Or may be mistype them?

Athena » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:12 pm wrote: From state to state cultures can vary, cultures between rural areas and the city can vary, and an age difference can also result in value differences.
And there we have it, yet again. Your narrow minded approach revealed in your choice of words. You did not write "from country to country", or "from continent to continent", but "from state to state". Subconsciously you have not really considered the possibility that I am from country other than the USA. I am Scottish, I am English, I am British, I am European, I am Homo sapiens, with a small, but valued smattering of Homo neanderthalis.

As to cultural variety I have lived and worked in the USA and Latin America and Africa and Asia and the Middle East. I've doubtless witnessed some of what you might consider "inappropriate behaviour" along the way.

Athena » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:12 pm wrote:There does appear to be something causing an emotional conflict between us. Your wording appears to be an attempt to drive home a point that is not purely intellectual, or I am just reading an imaged emotion into your post?
What you are reading is the incandescent fury you evoke in me when I read your self righteous posts. I'm glad you picked up on that.

I remind you that you elected to stop replying to me on more than one thread simply because I asked you to support your assertions with evidence.You presumed, at that time, that my questioning implied disagreement (which it did not) and therefore revealed that I was "wrong".

I remind you of vitriolic comments made about me, by you, in private.

I am not seeking to argue with you in an emotional sense Athena. I am asking you to come down off of your high horse of self-righteousness and narrow mindedness, middle-America morality and behaviour patterns and entertain the possibility that some of your notions may be mistaken.

Alternatively you can take offense at my remarks and ignore them. For your convenience, I've couched them emotionally to make them easier for you to reject. I hope you don't.

edited to fix quotes
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Re: Emotions and higher social order

Postby Braininvat on August 22nd, 2017, 9:41 am 

Eugene, Oregon is "middle-America" ? Someone clearly has never been to Eugene. LOL.


Wolf: "As an adult, Duke." What's your thinking there? You want to get inside the head of a KKK Grand Wizard more than Letterman? My example was rather tongue-in-cheek, but I see you must have considered some nuances of what one hopes to find in a dinner companion.
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Re: Emotions and higher social order

Postby Athena on August 22nd, 2017, 12:40 pm 

Eclogite » August 22nd, 2017, 4:54 am wrote:[quote="[url=http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=327359#p327359] My entire point is that, based upon your many posts in this forum, you appear to believe your definitions of respect and dignity, and only your defintions, are valid. And the ironic thing is that that posturing is disrespectful and undignified.


I suspect our definitions of respect and dignity are the same, but our judgment about what is respectful and what are attacks on someone's dignity is different. I think these judgments are based on feelings as opposed to being totally objective. When a person "feels" offended a person might think s/he is being disrespected and her/his dignity is on the line, and this, of course, will be a personal judgment triggered by emotion.

Now what is more honest, to say, I feel offended or disrespected, or to hide one's feelings and proceed to attack someone at every possible opportunity, having a problem making the message clear, because the desired message must be hidden and appear to be a matter of reasoning, rather the matter of the emotion hidden in the message.

Spell them differently? Or may be mistype them?
I would not know. I am a terrible speller so I can not judge the spelling of others because I do not know the correct spelling. But I do know Australians can spell English words differently than we do in the US.

And there we have it, yet again. Your narrow minded approach revealed in your choice of words. You did not write "from country to country", or "from continent to continent", but "from state to state". Subconsciously you have not really considered the possibility that I am from country other than the USA. I am Scottish, I am English, I am British, I am European, I am Homo sapiens, with a small, but valued smattering of Homo neanderthalis.


No subconscious thought at all, but an effort to make a point without using too many words. Actually, I thought you could be Australian because of your spelling. And just for the record, I think it is offensive for you to repeatedly say I am narrow-minded. Why do you keep doing that? What is your intent? What does your judgment of me have to do the with the topic? and by the way, I am American, that is a mix of people from different places and this includes Native American, Mexican and African. For sure there are Anglo-Saxons in my mix and there were Germans on my X husband's side of the family. I have Viking's disease in my hand and so does a nephew. That is inherited so my sister and I figure it comes from our father's side of the family. While for sure there is English blood on mother's side. Personally, with so much mixing, I think it is a little silly to make a deal about such matters, and morally I am in favor of the notion that we are born equal and share the same human rights.

As to cultural variety I have lived and worked in the USA and Latin America and Africa and Asia and the Middle East. I've doubtless witnessed some of what you might consider "inappropriate behaviour" along the way.
laugh, what is inappropriate in a small US town is not equal to what is inappropriate in Africa. I thought we already agreed on that. There might be some confusion between the difference of being intentionally defiant of social norms, and cultural differences.

What you are reading is the incandescent fury you evoke in me when I read your self-righteous posts. I'm glad you picked up on that.
That is what I thought, and I don't think you have been honest about your feelings and intentions until this moment. Thank you for making your feelings and intentions clear to all of us. Some might agree that what you are doing is harassment.

I remind you that you elected to stop replying to me on more than one thread simply because I asked you to support your assertions with evidence.You presumed, at that time, that my questioning implied disagreement (which it did not) and therefore revealed that I was "wrong".
And you don't think your behavior might justify me avoiding your post? Why would I want to engage someone who does what you are doing? I forgot about my past decision to not engage with you, and who could blame me for wanting to avoid what is happening here?

I remind you of vitriolic comments made about me, by you, in private.
I don't remember them but based on what you are doing, I am confident there was good cause for my words.

I am not seeking to argue with you in an emotional sense Athena.
How could you believe that? You have just made it clear your motive is emotional, and you have explained you believe you are justified in attacking me for emotional reasons.


I am asking you to come down off of your high horse of self-righteousness and narrow mindedness, middle-America morality and behaviour patterns and entertain the possibility that some of your notions may be mistaken.

Alternatively you can take offense at my remarks and ignore them. For your convenience, I've couched them emotionally to make them easier for you to reject. I hope you don't.


Laugh, really? If you want me to behave differently, change how you are addressing me.

Let's see, how can we make your post something other than personal attacks? What is the moral of your post- if you offend someone, that person may feel justified in attacking you and when this happens it can ruin threads, and perhaps the whole of society. Our focus on the topic of threads can be the opposite of what is happening here because a focus on the topic ideally shifts us from feeling to thinking and this is what is necessary for achieving a higher social order.
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Re: Emotions and higher social order

Postby Athena on August 22nd, 2017, 1:05 pm 

Braininvat » August 22nd, 2017, 7:41 am wrote:Eugene, Oregon is "middle-America" ? Someone clearly has never been to Eugene. LOL.


Wolf: "As an adult, Duke." What's your thinking there? You want to get inside the head of a KKK Grand Wizard more than Letterman? My example was rather tongue-in-cheek, but I see you must have considered some nuances of what one hopes to find in a dinner companion.



Eugene, Oregon is on the west coast. We are between California and Washington, so in away we are in the middle. We are a blue state and Eugene is especially liberal. We are proud to be a hippie town. Eugene is one of the places that is not cooperating with the effort to identify and deport immigrants. We are also more accommodating to the homeless than many places. This can change. Changes in the crime rate affect the decision to tolerate the homeless or chase them away. We are a university town with many students from other places, especially Asian students. The whole of Oregon had sun down towns, where people of color had to leave before sun down, and the KKK was active. Now we have laws against hate crimes and enforce them, and we have many mixed race children. My grandchildren and great grandchildren are among them and I am proud of that because it is what our democracy is about.
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Re: Emotions and higher social order

Postby Eclogite on August 23rd, 2017, 8:44 am 

Athena wrote:And just for the record, I think it is offensive for you to repeatedly say I am narrow-minded. Why do you keep doing that? What is your intent? What does your judgment of me have to do the with the topic?
Your narrowmindedness informs the views you epxress, the questions you ask and the solutions you propose. This makes it relevant.

Now what is more honest, to say, I feel offended or disrespected, or to hide one's feelings and proceed to attack someone at every possible opportunity,
I think I have been very honest about my feelings for your approach and your narrowmindedness.

I am not personally offended or disrespected by your remarks. I am offended that a person could have such a narrowminded view of the world yet still feel entitled to pontificate on solutions to the world's problems.

That is what I thought, and I don't think you have been honest about your feelings and intentions until this moment. Thank you for making your feelings and intentions clear to all of us. Some might agree that what you are doing is harassment.
Well, I apologise for not having made those views abundantly clear earlier. I certainly had no intention of concealing them. You certainly made your views of me clear several months ago, in a manner that left little doubt that you were aware of my thoughts. So is this just a memory glitch on your part, or hypocrisy?

I fully understand that you might well view criticism of the roots of your ideas as harassment.

As the saying goes, "this forum ain't big enough for both of us". So, using my moderator powers, I'll leave.
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Re: Emotions and higher social order

Postby Athena on August 23rd, 2017, 10:28 am 

Eclogite » August 23rd, 2017, 6:44 am wrote:
Athena wrote:And just for the record, I think it is offensive for you to repeatedly say I am narrow-minded. Why do you keep doing that? What is your intent? What does your judgment of me have to do the with the topic?
Your narrowmindedness informs the views you epxress, the questions you ask and the solutions you propose. This makes it relevant.

Now what is more honest, to say, I feel offended or disrespected, or to hide one's feelings and proceed to attack someone at every possible opportunity,
I think I have been very honest about my feelings for your approach and your narrowmindedness.

I am not personally offended or disrespected by your remarks. I am offended that a person could have such a narrowminded view of the world yet still feel entitled to pontificate on solutions to the world's problems.

That is what I thought, and I don't think you have been honest about your feelings and intentions until this moment. Thank you for making your feelings and intentions clear to all of us. Some might agree that what you are doing is harassment.
Well, I apologise for not having made those views abundantly clear earlier. I certainly had no intention of concealing them. You certainly made your views of me clear several months ago, in a manner that left little doubt that you were aware of my thoughts. So is this just a memory glitch on your part, or hypocrisy?

I fully understand that you might well view criticism of the roots of your ideas as harassment.

As the saying goes, "this forum ain't big enough for both of us". So, using my moderator powers, I'll leave.


Let's get your post on topic. Wolfhnd made an excellent post about differences between the sexes, and this very much applies to my notion that it was grandmothers who bought our species to civilization, not men. Can we look at the male/female difference?

I do not have a problem with saying I am hurt when I am hurt, except I know men have a bad reaction to that. They tend to see it as a weakness and then they may feel compelled to attack, like a pack of dogs will attack and kill the weak. You used words to attack me rather than claws and teeth, and as you did when you repeated I am narrow-minded. These behaviors are programmed into us, and the higher order is being more mindful of what we are doing and why.

Why have you been on a campaign of character assignation? It is obvious you did that because you felt hurt by something I said, but hell will freeze over before you admit that. The result is pretending to talk about one thing, when the real message is "I hate your guts and I wish you would drop dead" That was intentional deception, because you don't want to come out and say your feelings were hurt. That would not be masculine, and so the higher order thinking includes a need to defend your ego and your image as a capable man by attacking me. Other animals don't hold a concept of what is masculine or feminine and what they need to do to look good in front of their peers. Animals do what they do without much thought about why they are doing it.

A more masculine way of objecting to how someone is treating us, is to object to a lack of respect. When I say someone is not being respectful, it would be nice if the person thought things through instead of feeling hurt and lashing out. That would be self-awareness and self-control. You appear to have gained self-awareness, but stop before admitting your feelings were hurt and considering if my comments about respect have social value.

Respecting others as a matter of principle is high order thinking and that is important to our liberty and justice, and high social order. It means despite how I feel, I will be a respectful person. This is not about who the other person is, but who I am. My position on this gets me a lot of hate mail, but that is an emotional reaction, not an intellectual one, and my goal is to shift the thinking from emotional reactions, to well thought out actions involving self-control above the level of other primates.

If anyone wants to respond to what I have said, please begin by checking your feelings. Are you confident you can be a respectful person and that what I say makes good sense, or are you screaming inside and feeling an urge to attack me for what I have said? What are you using to determine truth and how you to react? Your feelings or another source of information? If you are using another source of information, such as an explanation of logic, or stoicism, or social norms, please do so. Do you see my intentions as good, or as bad?
How do you determine what my intentions are? Do you see a connection between being respectful and liberty and being well educated and how this goes together in a democracy? Do you think I write like this because I want to behave as Ecolite behaves, or can you see my good intentions and the philosophy and rules of etiquette beneath what I have said?
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