Faith in the younger generation?

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Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Aquinas on April 8th, 2018, 4:42 pm 

Do you see much hope for the youth in the U.S.A.? I like to separate myself from the Tide-Pod eating and condom snorting members of our society, but an argument can be made that I'm just on the very front end of it.

I know that those actions are not indicative of the entire youth population, and are instead the actions of a few particularly vocal members of society. However, these trends do exist for a reason, and I do worry about the possibility of continuing decline in common sense in coming years.

What do you think the possible repurcussions of this supposed decline I'm perceiving would be if left unchecked for several future generations? In addition, what measures, steps, or circumstances do you think would be necessary to break this behavior?

I acknowledge that I may simply be overreacting about it, and if any can provide examples that support the idea of this being part of a series of localized incidents spread across history, I'll gladly accept them as well.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby TheVat on April 8th, 2018, 6:54 pm 

I found Snopes a useful voice of sanity in regard to these activities.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/04/05/ ... hallenges/

I feel compelled to point out that, if people were snorting condoms rather than unfurling them for their normal duty, this could result in a population increase, depending on the particular religious faith of the snorters. At the same time, the eating of detergent would conceivably have a dampening effect on fertility, so perhaps the trends would simply cancel each other out.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Eodnhoj7 on April 13th, 2018, 10:31 am 

They do what they do because of an absence of hope derived from a stagnating boredom caused by materialistic success that stifles their ability to grow. Comfort kills.

In a separate respect they suffer because their lives are absent of meaning, or balance, considering natural need has been replaced by artificial want.

The simple truth, as a millenial, we are surrounded by constant noise that not only stifles our ability to reflect on the nature of our actions but simultaneously "orders" us to think a certain way or by another product. Millenials have no proper balance in which they are able to order themselves as individuals or partake of a community. On one hand they cannot think for themselves because of the noise of social media. On the other hand they cannot really be involved in anything because of social media.

We are a generation suffering death through stagnation considering we live in a time where the course of natural law has been replaced by an artificial tomb of comfort that devalues life for the sake of pleasure. The great irony though is that because we don't really "live" life we don't really experience any pleasure from it at all. One has to "live" in order to "experience" and the millennial generation lives in a catatonic state.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Zanthius on April 13th, 2018, 10:44 am 

Well, its not like everything was perfect in the past either:

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We are in a shift from the traditional way to think, into the future way to think:

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I am actually a bit more worried about the children that are born now, than about the millennial generation, since parents today seem to be so obsessed with their cellphones and tablets:

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Children don't necessarily develop properly unless they are exposed to a lot of physical play:

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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Eodnhoj7 on April 13th, 2018, 10:57 am 

Zanthius » April 13th, 2018, 10:44 am wrote:Well, its not like every was perfect in the past either:

Image

We are in a shift from the traditional way to think, into the future way to think:

Image

I actually a bit more worried about the children that are born now, than about the millennial generation, since parents today seem to be so obsessed with their cellphones and tablets:

Image

Children don't necessarily develop properly unless they are exposed to a lot of physical play:

Image



That is true, but a degree of balance was maintained in the respect that all actions had consequences. A simple premise of "life = good" "death = bad" observed by the symmetry one's life maintained with the constant cycles of nature (seasons, daylight/nighttime, etc.) enabled man not to live in a polar state of one extreme or another but rather in a higher state of balance where there was a time and place for everything.

If one is to look practically at the problems of the millenial generation it fundamentally breaks down to a problem of extremes.

1) Overbearing parents or parent(s) were never there.
2) Continual sports or continual studying, both of which the sports and studying rarely apply to real life considering they exist relative to the artificial environment in which they exist.
3) Work intensely or not at all.
4) Agree with everything a friend/group says or be left out.
5) etc.

Now have these extremes always existed? Yes in some degree or another, and the list can go on.

The problem occurs in the respect that with the technologicalization of society as "progress" we are inadvertently avoiding any root origin of balance. In simpler terms progress is dependent upon the continual manifestation of polar extremes and can metaphorically be observed as a dividing line which seperates one thing from another like a metaphysical act of war.

The contradiction of progress is its premise of "projecting past its origins". This is a contradiction, considering the nature of progress is dependent upon linear characteristics of a line projecting past its point of origin (point zero) only to be headed back to the same origin (point zero).

Progress is fundamentally a form of self-annihilation through relativistic division and we are observing a whole generation break apart at the seems physically, emotionally, and mentally because they quite literally do not know what to do as they are trapped in a technological cocoon that pulls them apart in every direction before they have the ability to grow.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Zanthius on April 13th, 2018, 11:03 am 

Eodnhoj7 » April 13th, 2018, 9:57 am wrote:Progress is fundamentally a form of self-annihilation through relativistic division and we are observing a whole generation break apart at the seems physically, emotionally, and mentally because they quite literally do not know what to do as they are trapped in a technological cocoon that pulls them apart in every direction before they have the ability to grow.


I also think Internet is horrible for children, because there is too much noneducational entertainment, which is just like candies or junk food for the brain.

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And there is so much entertainment now... its like putting a child into a world with unlimited access to candies:

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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Aquinas on April 13th, 2018, 12:17 pm 

So what I'm gathering (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that we are reaching a new peak in complacency as a society thanks to the quick and immediate fulfillment of our basic human needs. Therefore, without having to do much ourselves in order to keep living, we've shifted our efforts towards more self destructive actions in an effort to find new meaning.

Is this behavior just something to be expected and accepted as part of the natural progression of society? What kind of shift would need to be made in order to quell such rediculous behaviour?

As someone less than a month into their twenties, I don't want to be remembered as part of the group that put the final nail in the coffin, yet I'm not overly sure what needs to be done.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby TheVat on April 13th, 2018, 1:14 pm 

Leave your smartphone at home. (Or just take a flip phone - you don't need to carry a computer wherever you go)

Look up occasionally.

Talk to strangers. Stop treating people my age as if they are invisible.

Go outside your comfort level (don't be a snowflake).

Go hike in a wilderness, be someplace that's not designed for the convenience of human beings.

Stop worrying about yourself and get involved in politics and social reform and environmental activism.

Stop acting like the world owes you something. Or that it must be safe.

Reject materialism, tell corporate marketing forces to go fark themselves.

Learn that it's okay to lose or fail sometimes. Take it on the chin, dust yourself off, then move on.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Forest_Dump on April 13th, 2018, 1:16 pm 

Well when I think of man bun hair I also have to remember faux hawks, the rat tail, etc. Sandals go way back to the 70s. Low ass jeans are gone I think as are manpre pants from the grunge Era and acid splashed jeans. Today kids are mesmerized by their cellphones and I boxespecially but is that worse than ghetto blasters (which granted were some exercise) or just lounging in front of tv? Granted in my day we had to walk 10 miles to school every day in howling blizzards and come with a fresh killed moose and a pail of squirrel milk but times have changed..
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Zanthius on April 13th, 2018, 1:42 pm 

Aquinas » April 13th, 2018, 11:17 am wrote:So
As someone less than a month into their twenties, I don't want to be remembered as part of the group that put the final nail in the coffin, yet I'm not overly sure what needs to be done.


I am not completely sure if human societies can function without limits or not. It might seem like people are becoming better at controlling their food intake, after we got all the food surplus which has made several generations overweight. Similarly, it might be that future generations will be more able to control their cellphone usage, and be able to waste less time on noneducational entertainment by themselves. However, we might have to go through a transition period before people start to take these things seriously.

Also, if anybody are interested in helping to make a new Linux distribution for children, maybe that could help.

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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby TheVat on April 13th, 2018, 2:03 pm 

Case in point above. The millennial is continually promoting his own website in every thread, rather than responding to comments from older members.

Zanth, you are offering a tech fix (Linux) when tech is at the heart of the problem. Child psychologists are constantly pointing out the importance of getting children OFF electronic devices, and interacting with the real world. Children do not need a "digital environment," they need an analog one. They need to be moving their actual bodies around in actual physical space, playing, exploring, making music, dancing, running around, observing what's left of the natural world as well as the built world. The creative minds who made the digital world didn't form their minds in that world. We need a tablet-free period for children before they are immersed in the matrix. Red pill!
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Zanthius on April 13th, 2018, 2:07 pm 

Braininvat » April 13th, 2018, 1:03 pm wrote:Case in point above. The millennial is continually promoting his own website in every thread, rather than responding to comments from older members.


What makes you think I am a millennial? What makes you think you are older than me?

Braininvat » April 13th, 2018, 1:03 pm wrote:Children do not need a "digital environment," they need an analog one. They need to be moving their actual bodies around in actual physical space, playing, exploring, making music, dancing, running around, observing what's left of the natural world as well as the built world. The creative minds who made the digital world didn't form their minds in that world. We need a tablet-free period for children before they are immersed in the matrix. Red pill!


Yeah. Good luck with that. I don't think tech is the problem. I think ignorance is the problem, and if people become less ignorant, maybe they will start to care more about their physical and mental well-being.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Eodnhoj7 on April 14th, 2018, 1:24 pm 

Zanthius » April 13th, 2018, 11:03 am wrote:
Eodnhoj7 » April 13th, 2018, 9:57 am wrote:Progress is fundamentally a form of self-annihilation through relativistic division and we are observing a whole generation break apart at the seems physically, emotionally, and mentally because they quite literally do not know what to do as they are trapped in a technological cocoon that pulls them apart in every direction before they have the ability to grow.


I also think Internet is horrible for children, because there is too much noneducational entertainment, which is just like candies or junk food for the brain.

Image

And there is so much entertainment now... its like putting a child into a world with unlimited access to candies:

Image


Good point. Another thing I have observed, and I believe Game Theory mirrors aspects of what I am about to say, is that with the increase in information (or options) comes a simultaneous decrease in the ability to learn (choose) in the respect that the "possibilities" (if they can even be called that) cause a blinding effect where they act counter-productively in the respect no one can focus on anything let alone one thing at a time.

We can observe this in social media of various forms where the "instantaneous" nature of information causes information to appear in "bits" or "particles" that rarely give full expression or definition to any event or idea they are attempting to promote. The ability to reason has been particulated in the respect that people cannot observe any form of "whole".

What I mean by "whole" is strictly the ability to reason by observing a standard cause effect symmetry where each "part" exists because "A" leads to "B" leads to "C". This relation of parts in turn defines the "whole" as a thing or "unit" in itself. With the spread of information being broken down to striclty 1 or 2 sentences arguments whose wording is dependent on a strict subjective understanding the:

1) ability to reason, by putting things into proportion disappears.

2) Words lose meaning in the respect they do not maintain a universally agreed upon definition. Words such as "freedom", "rights", "love", "hate", etc. take on a means where they are interpreted strictly as emotional button rather than maintaining a simultaneous but necessary rational nature of being defined as x^y=z (or any other logical operation).

3) This inability to communicate causes a further fracturing in the respect that language, as a common binding median, begins to evaporate and the ideas and beliefs which once unites large groups fractures into smaller groups.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Eodnhoj7 on April 14th, 2018, 2:17 pm 

Aquinas » April 13th, 2018, 12:17 pm wrote:So what I'm gathering (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that we are reaching a new peak in complacency as a society thanks to the quick and immediate fulfillment of our basic human needs. Therefore, without having to do much ourselves in order to keep living, we've shifted our efforts towards more self destructive actions in an effort to find new meaning.

In many degrees yes, the complacency nullifies any form of growth inherently necessary for not just a society to progress but also the individual. And what I mean by "progress" is not limited to the standard definition but one of manifesting a phenomena (in this case society and individual) across time/space. How we understand survival, not just in its basic form but also the act of "living", is an extension across time and space where the living "entity", or we can just use the word "humanity", maintains its structure of "being" and "existence" through a perpetual moving and folding through itself.

This complacency, as a form of blind acceptance of the current circumstances, observes a "limit" in itself in the respect that what we deem as "satisfaction" is merely saying "now is the peak of existence there is nothing past this." In this manner complacency places a limit on the nature of human freedom with this limit inhibiting an progression through time. Simply put complacency is a death in and of itself in the respect that humanity, whether the group or the individual, ceases to move. This cessation of movement, gives a false impression of stillness as enlightenment, but is "nothingness" in itself and is a form of death through absence of internal and external group and individual behavior that is ordered and balanced.

The dual problem of ambition, which is observed in the millennial generation as a polar problem to the complacency, faces a problem in the respect that this ambition is false in many regards. Looking at the majority of the ambitious millennials the priority is to achieve the same material complacency the "un-ambitious" often times already have. Hence a contradiction occurs and what we value as ambition is merely a form of glorified struggle towards the same "nothingness" they seek to embrace in one respect while avoiding in another.


Is this behavior just something to be expected and accepted as part of the natural progression of society?
What progress? Technological you mean? Everything we understand of technology is based upon ideas of convenience that contradict themselves in the long run. We create "A" tool for "Y" activity because it is convenient. In turn we adapt to "A" tool and "A" tool no longer becomes convenient. "A" in turn becomes an inconvenience and "B" tool is created for "Y" activity.

What does not change, what we cannot "progress" past is "Y" activity. We still need to eat, no matter the manner in which we do it. We still have sex, no matter manner in which we reproduce. We still need shelter, no matter the manner of comfort or discomfort it contains.

We claim benefits such as "longer" life, but then have to bear the burden of deciding the nature of "euthanasia" or the controversial subject of abortion...and the nature of "long" life is relegated to a choice of "want" over "need". In this manner life is viewed as a commodity rather than a value in and of itself and a problem of reason occurs in the respect to the nature of the "axiom" and its correspondence to "value".

Value contradicts reason in the strict sense it becomes a subjective entity only, when in reality it maintains an objective nature in the respect it acts as a common median which unifies groups and perspectives. With the continual fractation of not just the individual, but groups in general, a problem of objectivity occurs and reason is put to the ultimate question of what is it?


With the increase in technology causes an increase in moral problems of decision and this can oftentimes be blinding not due to an absence of choice but rather too much choice. A paradox occurs as the system of balance, necessary for measurement, is moved to a strict subjective individualistic stance where the individual is pitted against innumerable options and view points.

The individual is obliterated by the blinding number of the options in one respect which in turn circles back to the society at large which is dependent upon the individual. Looking at this same problem from a separate angle of society forming the individual, a simultaneous problem occurs in the respect that societies value on individual values causes a paradox where this universal value inherently causes its own form of division.


What kind of shift would need to be made in order to quell such rediculous behaviour?


I see a number of viable options:

1) All societies are built upon ideas with "convenience" and "pleasure" being the forefront of this ideas. Considering all societies are built upon the "idea" a process of questioning must occur to destabilize it in one respect while simultaneously arriving at answers that provide solutions to a better means of living. The philosopher, for how "dead" they may be in our current mode of living, is a necessary biproduct of the irrational times we live in. We are claimed to be "taught" how to question reality, but rarely are we taught to question:
a) Who/What/Why/When/Where/How to question this "questioning" process itself, along with the authorities who tell us to do it.
b) Ourselves.
c) The actions of those who constitute our immediate lives.

2) Balancing out the nature of pleasure and pain. The more one seeks pleasure the less they are able to not just sustain it but also enjoy it, hence hedonism causes its own contradiction as it leads us deeper into an abyss we quite literally do not understand because of its highly subjective nature.
a) Moderate what and when we eat.
b) Moderate how we live (luxuries).
c) Moderate how we relate (friendships of a sexual and non-sexual nature).

3) Observe the nature of what it means to "progress". The reason I say this is because this "progress" we observe as necessitated by technology is in itself a contradiction considering it is merely a projection of how we view the world. Progress is dependent upon a view of the world and what it means to exist and in these respects we must put ask a question: What is the correct perspective to take?

4) This can be expanded, but for brevities sake I will stop here.


As someone less than a month into their twenties, I don't want to be remembered as part of the group that put the final nail in the coffin, yet I'm not overly sure what needs to be done.


As a millennial a decade older than you (approximately) here are a few pieces of advice I have learned from previous successes and failures:

1) Talk to people face to face, not just over the internet only. Ask them about their lives and why they view the world the way they do...and let them speak there part if it only means you asking "why" a fiew times.

2) Control how and what you eat, not by the application of extremes but just applying a form of self control through moderation.

3) Be loyal to your friends even it means questioning their motives and actions.

4) Moderate your sexual behavior. The more people you sleep with the more fractated you will be as an individual, while simultaneously causing a further fractation on the part of the other. Your heart determines your ability to not just reason but how you engage in the environment, which in turn forms the environment around you. Loyalty and respect through honesty (not sucking up and placing someone on a pedestal) is the ideal as it unifies humanity at the individual and group level.

5) When you are complimented place little value on it as the source of the compliment usually nullifies the compliment itself.

6) Don't be afraid of being humiliated, as the source of the humiliation means very little the majority of the time (emphasis on point 5 again).

7) When looking at a problem, either at the abstract or practical physical level, break it into proportions of 3. 1/3 as the "positive", 1/3 as the "negative", 1/3 as the "neutral". Your ability to observe the nature of the problem in proportional parts will not only help you put it into perspective but also provide a better means of solution.

8) When reading you will form a viewpoint, regardless of whether you intend to or not. If reading one author, read another author which disagrees with the one you are reading in a similar time frame. This way you will be able to observe both sides of the problem.

9) Stop judging people, most of the time people's lives are too complex to fully understand them. We all have scars and trophies and even the most "collected" or "cool" people you know suffer more than you think. People are not good or bad, they are just people. The actions they commit to, along with those committed to them, form them for what they are. People are the means through which we exist and are beginnings and ends in themselves. The more you talk to any individual the more you will learn that each of us is a small part of the universe.

10) Don't be afraid because that locks you inside yourself and this in turn becomes of prison.

11) Question everything I stated above, not as a means to doubt or agree with it, but rather to observe it for what it is.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Zanthius on April 14th, 2018, 2:25 pm 

Eodnhoj7 » April 14th, 2018, 12:24 pm wrote:We can observe this in social media of various forms where the "instantaneous" nature of information causes information to appear in "bits" or "particles" that rarely give full expression or definition to any event or idea they are attempting to promote. The ability to reason has been particulated in the respect that people cannot observe any form of "whole".


I once tried to use Twitter, but realized that I couldn't finish my argument. After that, I have haven't used Twitter anymore. Forums like this one are nice, because I can post as much as I want here and include images. If I write too long however, I risk that people aren't going to bother to read everything. So I try to use lots of images and illustrations istead.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Serpent on April 14th, 2018, 3:38 pm 

I meet young people in restaurants and garden centers and all kinds of summer and part-time employment, where they earn minimum wage for sometimes quite demanding work. They are polite, cheerful and, when they have time, open to conversation with old people like me.
I see them on television, marching for gun control and women's dignity, in thousands. I hear them commenting intelligently and decisively on these activities.
I see them playing sports from intramural to Olympic competition, and these teams are as strong, fast, skilled and determined as any generation before them.
I see them volunteering for conservation projects, public libraries, Habitat for Humanity, children's recreation programs and collecting for all kinds of charity.
I see them in cadets and scouts, theater and dance groups, flying clubs and church choirs.
I see them make the grades for college and university courses and earn the money for their textbooks and lodging.

Every generation has its silly fashions and potentially addictive fads.
Every generation has its idiots, goof-ups and blowhards. Every generation has its floaters and coasters. Every generation has its saints, geniuses and pioneers.
The next lot is no different; no less diverse.
All that's different is that they're living more out in public than ever before.
But the erosion of privacy in our time is not the youngsters' doing: they're just living in the world we gave we them, the same as we lived in the world as given to us.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Zanthius on April 14th, 2018, 5:20 pm 

Serpent » April 14th, 2018, 2:38 pm wrote:Every generation has its silly fashions and potentially addictive fads.
Every generation has its idiots, goof-ups and blowhards.
Every generation has its floaters and coasters.
Every generation has its saints, geniuses and pioneers.


All of this is true, but we are definitely in some kind of transition now, unlike anything ever seen before in human history. Lots of this is related to Internet and cellphones.

The question is if our species is going to learn how to survive with Internet and cellphones, or if this is going to be the end of civilization.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Serpent on April 14th, 2018, 8:05 pm 

Zanthius » April 14th, 2018, 4:20 pm wrote:...we are definitely in some kind of transition now, unlike anything ever seen before in human history.

So has every generation, always.
Lots of this is related to Internet and cellphones.

Lots of this is related to cuneiform, or gunpowder, the heliocentric universe, or the steam engine.

The question is if our species is going to learn how to survive with Internet and cellphones, or if this is going to be the end of civilization.

This may well be the end of civilization, but that's not due to cellphones and the internet; it's due to climate change and weapons of megadeath.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Zanthius on April 15th, 2018, 4:01 am 

Serpent » April 14th, 2018, 7:05 pm wrote:Lots of this is related to cuneiform, or gunpowder, the heliocentric universe, or the steam engine.


None of those things happened in a single generation. Gunpowder was invented in China during the 9th century, but didn’t arrive in Europe before the 13th century, and the development of more advanced firearms has been going on ever since then. Similarly, the development of cuneiform took almost a thousand years, from the first pictograms early in the 4th millennium BC, until the first documents written in Sumeria in the 31st century BC. Heliocentrism was first proposed by Aristarchus of Samos in 3rd century BC, but it didn’t start to gain ground before the Copernican Revolution in the 16th century. However, many European schools were still teaching geocentrism into the 18th century. So, also this transition took several hundred years. The development and spread of the steam engine took about 100 years, from the beginning of the 18th century until the end of the 18th century. Also, many of these transitions didn’t necessarily affect all of humanity. For example, even though some people knew how to read and write 4000 years ago, most people did not. The only transition I can think of that is comparable to the current transition into being connected to a globally spanning Internet all the time with your cellphones, is the agricultural revolution that started around 12000 years ago. However, that transition took several thousand years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_change
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Serpent on April 15th, 2018, 10:34 am 

It doesn't matter how long gunpowder took to spread all over the world; to the peoples who faced cannon- and rifle-fire with bows and spear, it was sudden and devastating.
And cellphones don't make as much difference in the world as the steam engine did. There have been phones for a hundred years or more; people all over the world were already used to hearing voices from far away through land-lines, walkie-talkies and radio. From there to having it in your pocket was a 30-year transition.
And so what? Every culture had been disrupted long before by imperialist incursions, two world wars, air travel and international trade.

Why do you think your current technological upheaval is the great big significant one?
People have always meddled with nature; people have always intruded on one another's lives; people have always adjusted.
Technology isn't the problem.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Zanthius on April 15th, 2018, 11:01 am 

Serpent » April 15th, 2018, 9:34 am wrote:Why do you think your current technological upheaval is the great big significant one?


By two factors. The average amount of time spent on the Internet by an individual multiplied with the amount of people having smart phones that are always connected to the Internet. Most of the inventions of the past haven't caused so many humans to spend so much time on the invention.

Serpent » April 15th, 2018, 9:34 am wrote:Technology isn't the problem.


Well, I certainly wouldn't want to revert back to a world without technology, but we need to find a way to live sustainably with technology. Just like we need to find a way to live sustainably with the environment/biosphere.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Serpent on April 15th, 2018, 12:08 pm 

Zanthius » April 15th, 2018, 10:01 am wrote:By two factors. The average amount of time spent on the Internet by an individual multiplied with the amount of people having smart phones that are always connected to the Internet. Most of the inventions of the past haven't caused so many humans to spend so much time on the invention.

How is that ultra significant? They have to spend their time some way. How is this pastime radically different from piercing patterns in one another's skin or watching over a herd of swine or standing in line for corn rations? Of course, it can be far more instructive than any of the other time-consuming non-activities people have pursued, and it can be either more or less communicative, depending on what exactly they do with their smart phones.
It's not as if industry and agriculture, pyramid-construction or dam repair required all the labour that it used to: people have a lot more time on their hands, due to all those previous technologies you consider less significant. For the same reason, they're also living longer into unproductive old age, that, in previous times, they would have spent just sitting. Now they can sit and play games, keep in touch with their grandchildren or watch documentaries about places they could never hope to visit. That's doing no harm that I can see.
Nor are the unemployed young people who connect with their friends through busy thumbs any worse than loitering on the street-corner used to be. Now they loiter and text at the same time. They also laugh, look at the cosmos, read gossip about celebrities and follow the football. My generation did that with television and magazines; my parents, with the radio and the newspaper. Having less physical proximity to other people doesn't necessarily result in isolation, but does necessarily reduce conflict. They can be mean to one another long-distance, but at least there are fewer opportunities for overt violence.
What's changed, besides the medium?

[Technology isn't the problem.]
Well, I certainly wouldn't want to revert back to a world without technology, but we need to find a way to live sustainably with technology. Just like we need to find a way to live sustainably with the environment/biosphere.

The latter may be facilitated by the former.
I'm far more concerned about the fragility of technological infrastructure. The failure of electrical grids and satellite connections will cause a lot more hardship when the global economy develops its inevitable cracks and ruptures than the odd teenager picking up a stupid fad.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Zanthius on April 15th, 2018, 5:54 pm 

Serpent » April 15th, 2018, 11:08 am wrote:How is that ultra significant? They have to spend their time some way.


I am not so worried about how adults spend their time. I think lots of adults are wasting most of their time on Internet reading (or doing) useless things, but that is not necessarily different from what people have been doing in the past.

I am however a bit worried about how young children are spending their time. It seems like young children need to spend a lot of time with physical play in order to develop properly. If they are now substituting physical play with play on tablets and smart phones, they might not develop their motor skills properly, and they might not develop their skills to communicate emotionally to each other with physical gestures.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Serpent on April 15th, 2018, 10:57 pm 

Zanthius » April 15th, 2018, 4:54 pm wrote:I am however a bit worried about how young children are spending their time. It seems like young children need to spend a lot of time with physical play in order to develop properly. If they are now substituting physical play with play on tablets and smart phones, they might not develop their motor skills properly, and they might not develop their skills to communicate emotionally to each other with physical gestures.

That's what everybody worried about television in 1960. Yet somehow, we did manage to grow up with all our limbs intact and sufficient motor skills for thoracic surgery, space travel and hockey.

Lots of things might happen - both better and worse than we expect.
But it's not just down to the internet or the phones. There is also the fact that parents are not only reluctant to let their children go to the park and play, or let them go anywhere on public transit, they're condemned by society if they do. At the same time, they can't take their kids to the park, because they're holding down three crappy part-time jobs to just about earn their family's subsistence. Nor can they afford to enroll their children in organized sports and ferry them back and forth to the gym or pool or wherever the activities are taking place.
New technology would take decades to erode a lifestyle, but it can swoosh in days into a vacuum that already exists.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Eodnhoj7 on April 18th, 2018, 5:34 pm 

Serpent » April 15th, 2018, 10:57 pm wrote:
Zanthius » April 15th, 2018, 4:54 pm wrote:I am however a bit worried about how young children are spending their time. It seems like young children need to spend a lot of time with physical play in order to develop properly. If they are now substituting physical play with play on tablets and smart phones, they might not develop their motor skills properly, and they might not develop their skills to communicate emotionally to each other with physical gestures.

That's what everybody worried about television in 1960. Yet somehow, we did manage to grow up with all our limbs intact and sufficient motor skills for thoracic surgery, space travel and hockey.

And what happened to the family as a foundation stone of society? Considering the moral deconstruction that is occuring, due to an absence of familial unity:

1) People manifest further psychological trauma which causes poor decision making leading to adverse health effects. People work harder and receive further injuries because the family will not work together for a common good.

2) Space travel will not take us anywhere and is not needed if we cease breeding.

3) Most people watch hockey rather than playing hockey. Playing a sport and watching a sport provide to different bonds.


Lots of things might happen - both better and worse than we expect.
But it's not just down to the internet or the phones. There is also the fact that parents are not only reluctant to let their children go to the park and play, or let them go anywhere on public transit, they're condemned by society if they do. At the same time, they can't take their kids to the park, because they're holding down three crappy part-time jobs to just about earn their family's subsistence. Nor can they afford to enroll their children in organized sports and ferry them back and forth to the gym or pool or wherever the activities are taking place.
New technology would take decades to erode a lifestyle, but it can swoosh in days into a vacuum that already exists.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Serpent on April 18th, 2018, 6:31 pm 

Eodnhoj7 » April 18th, 2018, 4:34 pm wrote:[ Yet somehow, we did manage to grow up with all our limbs intact and sufficient motor skills for thoracic surgery, space travel and hockey. ]

And what happened to the family as a foundation stone of society? Considering the moral deconstruction that is occuring, due to an absence of familial unity:


Whose morals and which family?
The people my age that I know have functional, even successful middle-aged children and nearly-grown grandchildren, who all work, pay taxes and care for one another, as well as their elders.

1) People manifest further psychological trauma which causes poor decision making leading to adverse health effects. People work harder and receive further injuries because the family will not work together for a common good.

Where did you get this?
If it's any truer now than it was 20 or 40 years ago - and I'm not convinced - have you made a causative link to one generation watching television in youth?
Might some social dysfunction be linked to wars, terror, loss of autonomy, loss of employment, economic disparity, insecurity, loss of freedoms due to government paranoia?
Might some working together for the common good not be noted in community action, mass protest, information sharing, the passing of more tolerant laws and growing awareness of other people's feelings?

2) Space travel will not take us anywhere and is not needed if we cease breeding.

Relevance?
And that's a very big 'if'. So far, only a minority have even slowed down.

3) Most people watch hockey rather than playing hockey. Playing a sport and watching a sport provide to different bonds.

Indeed, there have always been more fans than players. Going to games together, watching games together, having the parents take the child to pee-wee games, parents and grandparents making a rink for local children, and entire towns enthusiastically supporting their minor leagues are all bonding occasions.

If you see problems in society, try to trace them to actual causes, rather than throwing them into the nearest convenient basket.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Eodnhoj7 on April 19th, 2018, 10:36 am 

Serpent » April 18th, 2018, 6:31 pm wrote:
Eodnhoj7 » April 18th, 2018, 4:34 pm wrote:[ Yet somehow, we did manage to grow up with all our limbs intact and sufficient motor skills for thoracic surgery, space travel and hockey. ]

And what happened to the family as a foundation stone of society? Considering the moral deconstruction that is occuring, due to an absence of familial unity:


Whose morals and which family?
The people my age that I know have functional, even successful middle-aged children and nearly-grown grandchildren, who all work, pay taxes and care for one another, as well as their elders.

[b][b]Paying taxes and working is a large part of being moral in the respect that it not only shows a large degree of responsibility and care but promotes a necessary degree of human freedom in which a person contributes part of himself/herself to other's growth.

All of that is good, but keep in mind they are successful because of their ability to reach what is necessary, that is eachother. The dissolution of the family reduces the human condition to merely one of an object meant to be subjectively used. Considering the subjective nature of mankind is irrational, but an inherent element non the less, it is given form and order (objective truth) through a moral system of the golden rule.

To argue against the family structure as a necessary glue for society, when in fact your experience shows its success, is not much of an argument. "Part" of, not the "whole", reason for the dissolution of social bonds, ranging from familial ties to basic friendships, is due to the nature of "attention".

We pay more attention to entertainment, objectified through social media technology (tv, ipads, etc.), rather than eachother. In these respects we create barriers as noone really knows anyone, we immerse ourselves instead in a world of illusion.

One of the issues, again emphasis on "one", with the millenials is the destruction of the family as a base form of human unity. This in turn reflects through failures in friendships, sexual relationships, and how one relates to a culture at large. When people are alone, or feel alone, they are put in a stance in which they must fight against everyone and everything in order to ensure their own survival at the emotional, physical, or mental level...this is a very dark way to live and gives some understanding to why we see many problems with the millenials...they simply have no place or purpose...a universal struggle for meaning against nothingness is what defines "my" generation, "my" experience.

The older generations had their struggles, their wars, etc. All of these were valid struggles which they overcame. But the millenials? We struggle against nothingness, a stale hopelessness in which can neither create or destroy, love or hate, live or die as we are continually surrounded by noise...much of which is due to the means in which we develop technology, hence the current technology itself. But techology itself is part of the human condition and I am not condemning it. However technology is a projection of not just our values but how we see the world.

My generation? We all feel alone...completely. We fight against eachother. We fight against nature under "progress". In all truth if we could fight against God we would. Now the means of this fight is not strictly just in a physical manner, which we can see in other countries, but one of continually redefining values that is congruent to a subjective nature only the individual shares. It is a struggle against ourselves because the ugly truth is that "we" are in charge and the older generation is not...anymore at least. We were put in front of the television and ignored, while the parents worked to achieve wants rather than needs. They wanted the big house, they wanted the nice car, they wanted the social status...and generally speaking they got it...but they forgot us.

Now we are coming of age, we are going to be in charge, and the truth is we are coming with wrath and vengeance. This wrath will not be dramatic, it will be very subtle...we will simply just forget your generation and view them as a number on a spread sheet. If we cannot put you in nursing homes and ignore you until you die we will euthanize you because of inconvenience...the numbers just didn't add up we will tell ourselves.

The most brutal thing that can be done to a human being is not to harass or bullying them, no...it is to leave them in darkness. Our parents didn't raise us...they either worked all the time or just didn't care. TV did raise us and is showed us blinding possibilities of the human condition. It shows us that man is merely a means to achieve pleasure to various grades of sex and violence. This pleasure? It allows us to escape ourselves...to be enveloped in a darkness that allows us to forget our pains...the pain that comes with being a number.


So the question I ask is: Should we have spent more time promoting familial values and sexual ethics rather than a do what you feel approach? Should we have spent less time developing time technology and useless luxury and rather spent more time with each other?



1) People manifest further psychological trauma which causes poor decision making leading to adverse health effects. People work harder and receive further injuries because the family will not work together for a common good.

Where did you get this?

The real world...watching men who have crippling arthritis, back injuries being processed like numbers in a factory or job site trying to be a "strong individual" because the family they go to at home provides no support or comfort, not just strictly in a financial manner but no respect or warmth, appreciation of any form.

A man is alone in this world and is expected to work until he breaks his body, mind and spirit because this "work" enables a technological progress where we can spend time being entertained rather than living. We watch people have relationships (friendships, enemies, families, etc.) but very rarely in "the real world" are we given an opportunity for this.

What we are given an opportunity for, in "my world", is heroine, stds and hiv...factually speaking the highest rate of Stds in the U.S. currently...a western equivalent of sodom and gommorah.

I am given as an opportunity the choice to have sex with a whore, but never to marry and support a wife or build a family. Even if I find a girl who has reached ground zero, just as I have reached ground zero multiple times in my life, and explain to her that their has to be a way to get out of this "abyss" maybe we can help eachother sort life out, the girl is so damaged that a general sense of paranoia and distrust remains and it is next to impossible to build any "balanced" (not normal considering noone is normal) relationship.


I am given an opportunity to work a job, but never the security that it will be there tomorrow and that I will one day be given the ability to retire. If I work too hard, my employer will love me but my coworkers will want my head. If I keep my head down and shut up, people view you with suspicion. If I become an asshole I am harming myself. If I don't know the right person I get laid off for a buddy of his.


I am given an opportunity to spend time playing video games with friends, or watching television, but not the ability to create or destroy something. We don't build anything that lasts, because it is intended to be replace and destroyed. Why should I find value in my job? Or anyone else for that matter?

War? Fight for what exactly? A family led by a wife who had 15 guys before me and ignores my kids, spending all day on facebook? Those stories are a dime a dozen. Technological progress? So men can spend all day watching video games and porn and the women having "relationships" on facebook?



If it's any truer now than it was 20 or 40 years ago - and I'm not convinced - have you made a causative link to one generation watching television in youth?
No offense, you seem like a good person with a balanced life and I hope you not just maintain that lifestyle but other's follow in your footsteps, but you live in a bubble world.

In my world? The last opportunity I had for work all my work "buddies" wanted my head on a pike because I worked to hard. My boss loved me, but I kept working until I got an injury. The whole "keep your head down shut up and do your job" does not work.

Other workers keep pushing buttons and throwing insults, or talking about their failed family life (break up, divorce, etc.).

Last opportunity for a "courtship" (a word people don't even use anymore)? A girl who was used and abused by men from the age of thirteen and ended up in a psychiatric institution over it...that was just the most recent one. This "date" alone was difficult to find as the ability to even "start" a conversation is hampered by the fact people stare at their phones all day.

Pray to God for help? Light orbs and "hovering birds" show up in back yard (verified by seperate observers), room lights up and a satanic symbol I never seen before (learned only after months of research) appears on my ceiling.

Yes this is absurd, and I cannot emphasize that enough. I not only have to question what is going on in the world around me but my own sanity at times.

I went to a psychologist for help and advice over it. What did he say (loosely)? "I don't know what say, you seem rational and think things through, don't do drugs, I can't diagnose you because I don't know what to say. Maybe you should relax more?"

So this gives a good starting point of the problems of "mind, body and spirit" millennials face...however extreme it appears.

I think a fair question, considering what I have objectively observed is a simple "wtf?"

The simple truth, and I am not trying to sound rude or be aggressive, is that "you people" whose life "just works out and everyone stays together because taxes are paid" has not been the experience I have had nor observed in the lives of others with the exception of 1 or 2 people....out of hundreds if not thousands.

Are you wrong? No that "means of being" in which you and your family/friends practice in your life is the correct and moral one, but that "means" is not always available and the struggle to achieve it (which as a millenial I am currently entrenched in) is equivalent to a simple metaphor:

"A crab trying to pull itself out of a bucket, always has crabs trying to pull it back in."

This should give some answer and perspective, from both subjective experience and objective observation, as to the "premise" I am arranging my argument from. Like I said before, I am not trying to be rude or overbearing...the simple truth is that some observed truths about the human condition are...whats the word?...Absurd.

[/b]


Might some social dysfunction be linked to wars, terror, loss of autonomy, loss of employment, economic disparity, insecurity, loss of freedoms due to government paranoia?
Might some working together for the common good not be noted in community action, mass protest, information sharing, the passing of more tolerant laws and growing awareness of other people's feelings?

2) Space travel will not take us anywhere and is not needed if we cease breeding.

Relevance?
And that's a very big 'if'. So far, only a minority have even slowed down.

3) Most people watch hockey rather than playing hockey. Playing a sport and watching a sport provide to different bonds.[/b]

Indeed, there have always been more fans than players. Going to games together, watching games together, having the parents take the child to pee-wee games, parents and grandparents making a rink for local children, and entire towns enthusiastically supporting their minor leagues are all bonding occasions.

If you see problems in society, try to trace them to actual causes, rather than throwing them into the nearest convenient basket.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Serpent on April 19th, 2018, 12:19 pm 

Eodnhoj7 » April 19th, 2018, 9:36 am wrote: The dissolution of the family reduces the human condition to merely one of an object meant to be subjectively used.

I don't see the family any more dissolved or dissolute now than it was in 1950.
Maybe there is less secrecy and denial about the problems families have, but i don't think they're worse than a generation or two generations ago.
Considering the subjective nature of mankind is irrational,

Who sez?
To argue against the family structure as a necessary glue for society, when in fact your experience shows its success, is not much of an argument.

It was no argument at all. My experience and observation suggests that families are no more sick or broken now than they were a century ago. I said television did not cause
the moral deconstruction that is occuring, due to an absence of familial unity:

You still haven't demonstrated that this happened on a general scale.

We pay more attention to entertainment, objectified through social media technology (tv, ipads, etc.), rather than eachother. In these respects we create barriers as noone really knows anyone, we immerse ourselves instead in a world of illusion.

Maybe you do, but what a lot of people, all ages, are doing on their electronic devices is seeking contact with one another. They gossip about mutual friends, complain about the weather, crow over their successes, discuss plans, play games and constantly send pictures of where they are, whom they meet, what they're doing, buying, wearing, eating and seeing. They also keep in touch with siblings, children and parents, co-ordinate their movements and keep track of whether someone needs a ride, or will be late home, or is bringing takeout.
In fact, everyone can know far more about anyone than they ever could before. I find that far more concerning than alienation. We were already separated by the distances between home, work, school and recreation; by the structure of cities. Now, those distances mean very little.

My generation? We all feel alone...completely. We fight against eachother. We fight against nature under "progress". In all truth if we could fight against God we would.

That's too bad. But I'm not convinced that you speak for your whole generation.
It is a struggle against ourselves because the ugly truth is that "we" are in charge and the older generation is not...anymore at least.

Have you seen any of the world's economic and political leaders lately? They don't look millennial to me!
We were put in front of the television and ignored, while the parents worked to achieve wants rather than needs. They wanted the big house, they wanted the nice car, they wanted the social status...and generally speaking they got it...but they forgot us.

What, all of them? They didn't give you a room of your own, take you to music lessons and baseball practice, give you nice clothes, send you to summer camp, do your laundry, straighten your teeth, put up with your snits and sulks, pay your tuition? They worked just for luxuries for themselves? Shame!

Now we are coming of age, we are going to be in charge, and the truth is we are coming with wrath and vengeance. This wrath will not be dramatic, it will be very subtle...we will simply just forget your generation and view them as a number on a spread sheet. If we cannot put you in nursing homes and ignore you until you die we will euthanize you because of inconvenience...the numbers just didn't add up we will tell ourselves.

Some young people obviously have anger issues, but I suspect it's not with their smart phones.
Or maybe you're just speaking for some ungrateful little shits who were too lazy to turn on a light and now blame everyone else for their failures.
Is there anything to stop you taking concerted actions, organizing communal endeavours, supporting one another? I should think technology facilitates co-ordination, rather than preventing it.

as a millenial I am currently entrenched in) is equivalent to a simple metaphor:

"A crab trying to pull itself out of a bucket, always has crabs trying to pull it back in."
[/quote]
Okay, you win. No more faith in the younger generation - you're all lost.
Last edited by Serpent on April 19th, 2018, 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby Eodnhoj7 on April 19th, 2018, 12:20 pm 

Serpent » April 19th, 2018, 12:19 pm wrote:
Eodnhoj7 » April 19th, 2018, 9:36 am wrote:
The dissolution of the family reduces the human condition to merely one of an object meant to be subjectively used.

I don't see the family any more dissolved or dissolute now than it was in 1950.
Maybe there is less secrecy and denial about the problems families have, but i don't think they're worse than a generation or two generations ago.
Considering the subjective nature of mankind is irrational,

Who sez?
To argue against the family structure as a necessary glue for society,

Who did?
when in fact your experience shows its success, is not much of an argument.

It was no argument at all. My experience suggests that families are no more sick or broken now than they were a century ago. I said television did not cause
the moral deconstruction that is occuring, due to an absence of familial unity:

You still haven't demonstrated that this happened.

We pay more attention to entertainment, objectified through social media technology (tv, ipads, etc.), rather than eachother. In these respects we create barriers as noone really knows anyone, we immerse ourselves instead in a world of illusion.

Maybe you do, but what a lot of people, all ages, but mostly the young are doing on their electronic devices is contact with one another. They gossip about mutual friends, complain about the weather, crow over their successes, discuss plans, play games and constantly send pictures of where they are, whom they meet, what they're doing, buying, wearing, eating and seeing. They also keep in touch with siblings, children and parents, co-ordinate their movements and keep track of whether someone needs a ride, or will be late home, or is bringing takeout.
In fact, everyone can know far more about anyone than they ever could before. I find that far more concerning than alienation. We were already separated by the distances between home, work, school and recreation; by the structure of cities. Now, those distances mean very little.

My generation? We all feel alone...completely. We fight against eachother. We fight against nature under "progress". In all truth if we could fight against God we would.

That's too bad. But I'm not convinced that speak for your qwhole generation.
It is a struggle against ourselves because the ugly truth is that "we" are in charge and the older generation is not...anymore at least.

Have you seen any of the world's economic and political leaders lately? They don't look millennial to me!
We were put in front of the television and ignored, while the parents worked to achieve wants rather than needs. They wanted the big house, they wanted the nice car, they wanted the social status...and generally speaking they got it...but they forgot us.

What, all of them? They didn't give a room of your own, take you to music lessons and baseball practice, give you nice clothes, send you to summer camp, straighten your teeth and pay your tuition? They worked just for luxuries for themselves? Shame!

Now we are coming of age, we are going to be in charge, and the truth is we are coming with wrath and vengeance. This wrath will not be dramatic, it will be very subtle...we will simply just forget your generation and view them as a number on a spread sheet. If we cannot put you in nursing homes and ignore you until you die we will euthanize you because of inconvenience...the numbers just didn't add up we will tell ourselves.

Some young people obviously have a problem, but I suspect it's not with their smart phones.
Or maybe you're just speaking for some ungrateful little shits.

as a millenial I am currently entrenched in) is equivalent to a simple metaphor:

"A crab trying to pull itself out of a bucket, always has crabs trying to pull it back in."

Okay, you win. No more faith in the younger generation - you're all lost.


Not much of a loss considering little faith was placed in us to begin with.
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Re: Faith in the younger generation?

Postby TheVat on April 19th, 2018, 12:39 pm 

This forum is not a venue for sweeping generalizations about sociological trends, or observations based on personal anecdote, so I think the thread has departed from PCF. It will be moved to Odds and Ends.
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