I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby davidm on February 13th, 2019, 12:35 pm 

charon » February 13th, 2019, 10:00 am wrote:
BadgerJelly » February 13th, 2019, 2:53 pm wrote:
charon » February 13th, 2019, 9:18 pm wrote:

So the only deduction one can make is that they were functioning consciously when their brain was incapable of doing so.


The ONLY one? I don’t think so.


Well, let's hear the others, then! Not guesses, they've got to fit the facts.


Vat gave you links above that fit the facts and show that OBEs and NDEs all have purely naturalistic explanations. He actually beat me to the punch; I was going to link one of the SA articles.

You, predictably, have ignored these links.

You, also predictably, have offered nothing but anecdotes to support your wishful thinking. As PaulN so succinctly noted, the status of anecdotes as evidence is garbage.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby charon on February 13th, 2019, 12:39 pm 

You, predictably, have ignored these links.


They don't fit the facts. We all know about tunnels of light etc that could well have something to do with the brain. What's presented here is not that.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby davidm on February 13th, 2019, 12:41 pm 

charon » February 13th, 2019, 10:39 am wrote:
You, predictably, have ignored these links.


They don't fit the facts.


Really? Why is that, according to you?

I do believe forum rules here require that you make more than bare assertions, but are required to support dismissive statements such as the above with actual evidence and arguments.

Note: Anecdotes are not evidence. They are garbage.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby davidm on February 13th, 2019, 12:43 pm 

charon » February 13th, 2019, 10:39 am wrote:
You, predictably, have ignored these links.


We all know about tunnels of light etc that could well have something to do with the brain. What's presented here is not that.


You seem to have added this to your post. What does this mean? The tunnel of light effect is explained in the articles.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby charon on February 13th, 2019, 1:01 pm 

David -

You do not remember things during the course of a normal surgical operation except perhaps when you're beginning to wake up. Far less when you're on a table stuffed with tubes in a deep state of induced unconsciousness such as these people were.

You certainly do not recall any events that happen out of your extremely limited line of sight - if you have any sight at all - during that period of profound, almost comatose unconsciousness. It isn't feasible.

Stop arguing against the obvious.

The tunnel of light effect is explained


By whom? And why should those explanations be the correct ones? I love the way you announce that it's all 'explained' like it was unarguable. It isn't.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby BadgerJelly on February 13th, 2019, 1:15 pm 

People can not consciously see yet are still able to navigate around a room - that is one example of how awareness and unconscious data is processed.

I don’t find it an incredible stretch to imagine that although the brain appears to be “dead” it isn’t and that the cells are certainly not dead, and therefore why isn’t it possible auditory function is still functioning minimally - given that NDE give a sense of heightened awareness, and that under immense stress sensory perception is heightened (due to threats of danger etc.) I don’t find it unimaginable that data is being absorbed even if I don’t have hard evidence for this.

None of that requires a mind body dualism scenario (and maybe the mind is “other” to body but it doesn’t seem we’re anywhere near being able to detect/measure such a thing or know/guess how it would function).

Note: I think it’s something to do with DMT but I’ve yet to try the stuff and compare to my pwn personal experiences.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby davidm on February 13th, 2019, 2:04 pm 

charon » February 13th, 2019, 11:01 am wrote:David -

You do not remember things during the course of a normal surgical operation except perhaps when you're beginning to wake up. Far less when you're on a table stuffed with tubes in a deep state of induced unconsciousness such as these people were.

You certainly do not recall any events that happen out of your extremely limited line of sight - if you have any sight at all - during that period of profound, almost comatose unconsciousness. It isn't feasible.

Stop arguing against the obvious.

The tunnel of light effect is explained


By whom? And why should those explanations be the correct ones? I love the way you announce that it's all 'explained' like it was unarguable. It isn't.


All of the above is addressed in the linked articles that you refuse to read.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby charon on February 13th, 2019, 2:11 pm 

BadgerJelly -

All that is reasonable but it doesn't explain how they can describe events beyond their possible line of sight (which isn't functioning anyway) elsewhere in the room.

There are also reports of people who have not only described events in the theatre (i.e. behind screens) or which would've been blocked by the surgical team around them anyway, but gone off to where other people lived in separate houses and described what they were doing - knitting, reading a book, what they were talking about, what they were wearing, etc etc. At the time they were unconscious, obviously.

I'm not exaggerating. Personally, I think science is still in the dark ages as regards these sorts of things. I jest not.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby charon on February 13th, 2019, 2:14 pm 

All of the above is addressed in the linked articles that you refuse to read.


Oh, you mean if I'd read them I'd be enlightened and know all the answers? Right :-)
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby davidm on February 13th, 2019, 2:21 pm 

charon » February 13th, 2019, 12:14 pm wrote:
All of the above is addressed in the linked articles that you refuse to read.


Oh, you mean if I'd read them I'd be enlightened and know all the answers? Right :-)


Indeed, it's incredible. You won't even read them. You wish to remain willfully ignorant.

I again must note that this behavior seems a clear violation of rules here, which require that you engage with evidence, arguments, and linked material.

Moreover, your examples of NDEs are all anecdotes -- stories, memories, confabulations, post-hoc rationalizations. IOW, they are garbage. But you know -- GIGO!

By contrast, when science gets involved, as in the links you refuse to read, these mysteries dissolve like dew in the morning sun. Sorry to rain on your mystical parade -- again.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby davidm on February 13th, 2019, 2:22 pm 

charon » February 13th, 2019, 12:11 pm wrote:an describe events beyond their possible line of sight (which isn't functioning anyway) elsewhere in the room.

There are also reports of people who have not only described events in the theatre (i.e. behind screens) or which would've been blocked by the surgical team around them anyway, but gone off to where other people lived in separate houses and described what they were doing - knitting, reading a book, what they were talking about, what they were wearing, etc etc. At the time they were unconscious, obviously.
not.


Yeah, sure there are "reports" of this. Where'd you hear them, from John Edward or Art Bell?
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby BadgerJelly on February 13th, 2019, 2:36 pm 

Charon -

I’ve heard these kinds of reports before. I’m not entirely convinced given that there are possible unconscious memories, instances of nurses/doctors mentioning something to someone else and forgetting and then another person half-hearing the conversation etc.,.

It doesn’t take a huge stretch to imagine that such things have happened. If all of these were factored out (I’ve yet to have seen a report that takes such into account) which they cannot be much more than the memories presented are. Either way we have the choice between believing what we experienced or what we know of how our very memories of a given experience can be wildly distorted; both of which have more questions than answers, but the idea of mind body dualism has no scientific grounds we know of yet so we’ll just have to sit it out until either instruments are refined or someone offers up better evidence.

There are plenty of puzzles in medicine that make absolutely no sense. Generally speaking we can usually point to something physically “simple” though rather than having to imagine some “otherness”.

If we’e talking about “soul” what does that mean really? I’ve always had isseu with someone saying “god” or “soul” that cannot define what they mean beyond some concept that isn’t ubiquitously applicable; like the “soul” is “Life Force” or some such meaningless phraseology.

I cannot possibly describe my personal experience to anyone in a meaningful way - by which if someone agreed with me and said they’d experienced what I had I simply wouldn’t believe them because I cannot fathom it enough to articulate it mere words and therefore anyone suggesting “they know exactly what I mean” don’t know.

Like I’ve said, there is a lot of questions about many, many things regarding medical science and the cognitive neurosciences specifically. I imagine if there is much substance to these reports they’ll become clearer over the next few decades as our understanding expands ... or maybe not.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby BadgerJelly on February 13th, 2019, 2:41 pm 

David -

Read Charon’s posts on the first page.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby charon on February 13th, 2019, 2:49 pm 

David, how do you know I haven't read them, much less refuse to? You keep repeating it as if you have some strange inside knowledge.

I have read them. Not only that, I've read a hundred like them before. You understand? I've seen it all before. Those specific articles do NOT address the points we're making here, only some of them. Not the bits that I've repeated above.

If you don't know this then it's you who haven't read them. And besides, what makes you and others believe - and it is a belief - that science is the final arbiter, the great authority? It isn't. There are plenty of things in the normal world that it can't explain, much less this stuff.

To keep on quoting and proselytising science is to argue from ignorance. That's a fact. It means you are arguing from ignorance, right?

Which is why I say you should get out more... which naturally you refuse to do because your science literature satisfies you. You think all the answers are therein, just like the believer with his Bible or Koran. You also share another trait with them, you assume everyone who doesn't share the belief is ignorant and needs to be educated. Yessir.

Absolutely.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby PaulN on February 13th, 2019, 2:59 pm 

I think this segment, from the Atlantic article that was linked, sums up the present state of the debate pretty well:

The machine confirmed that for a number of minutes Reynolds was effectively dead in both brain and body. Yet after the surgery she reported having had a powerful NDE, including an out-of-body experience, and accurately recalled several details about what was going on in the operating room, such as the shape of the bone saw used on her skull, snatches of conversations between the medical staff, and the staff listening—rather inappropriately, she remembered thinking—to “Hotel California” (“You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave”). For the near-death-experience community, Reynolds is Exhibit A.

But none of Reynolds’s reported veridical perceptions happened while her EEG recorded a flat line. They all took place before or after, when she was under anesthetic but very much alive. “Anesthesia awareness” is generally estimated to affect roughly one in 1,000 patients. (See “Awakening,” by Joshua Lang, in the January/February 2013 Atlantic.) Therefore, the skeptical argument goes, Reynolds could have heard snatches of conversation; she might have deduced some things about the bone saw from the noise it made or the vibration of it against her skull; and she might have reconstructed some false memories out of details she’d noticed before or after the operation.

In 2011, a year after Reynolds died (of heart failure), the Journal of Near-Death Studies devoted an entire issue to a debate about her case, in which a skeptic and two believers argued over such minutiae as the duration of the noise played by the speakers in her ears, the way bone conducts sound, and esoteric theories of how exactly a nonphysical mind might be able to perceive physical stimuli. Summing it up, Janice Miner Holden, the journal’s editor, concluded that cases like Reynolds’s “provide imperfect data that probably can never result in definitive evidence.”


Amusing bit about the playing of Hotel California in the OR.

I have found no research that provides strong documented evidence (times, locations, corroborating witnesses) for the accounts where patients float off to other houses and see people knitting, chatting, and so on. Like the blue tennis shoe case, these often seem dependent on a single person like the social worker Ms. Clark, who says she saw the shoe on the ledge and offers this snippet well after the patient has revived. As noted, later investigators have not even been able to find the patient Maria and confirm her original story.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby charon on February 13th, 2019, 3:11 pm 

BadgerJelly -

I know what you're saying. Absolutely right, a lot of human experience can be explained. Probably by perfectly ordinary people too, you don't need to be a scientist to do it.

It would please me no end if science could start fathoming these things but they'll have to rethink their approaches. That's fairly obvious because they're not really working at the moment. There's no doubt to anyone who has investigated this stuff that there's something going on, it's blindingly obvious. But when science gets involved suddenly the whole thing is a delusion, or a trick of the light, or a physical anomaly, or some other such thing.

It just isn't true. Really they know that, hence the various paranormal centres they've set up in universities, Harvard, Stanford, Edinburgh, Goldsmiths... these aren't sub-standard places!

But they haven't really got anywhere as far as I know. I haven't checked recently. So it must be their methodology, mustn't it? They've got to think of something new, some other way of testing for these phenomena. Perhaps they've already thought that but don't know what to do.

But if you ask me what, I don't know either, to be honest.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby PaulN on February 13th, 2019, 3:17 pm 

Charon,

There's no doubt to anyone who has investigated this stuff that there's something going on, it's blindingly obvious.


Many investigators believe what is going on is a physical effect in the brain, which produces the effect of a vivid and "real seeming" hallucination. Is that the belief you are ruling on as blindingly obvious? I'd say there is plenty of doubt, from all that I've read. It still seems like you are ignoring the links that present information not consistent with your own beliefs about leaving the body.

It seems to me you are refusing to acknowledge evidence (and areas where evidence is lacking) and make a good faith effort to grapple with this. You seem to have closed your mind and glibly reject science. (I'll bet you still use electricity, complex machinery, cellphones, pharmaceuticals, medical treatments, though, right?) You reject it, in favor of what exactly? Some other method of determining facts that DOESN'T involve such methods as careful observation, monitoring of a person's brain function, checking details given in personal testimony, eliminating other possible explanations, comparing EEG readings and their exact time with times reported in verdical perceptions, bringing in objective observers to audit data collection, and so on? Good luck with that. Funny, you seem to be okay with the scientific method when it supports your supernatural intuitions, but toss it out when it doesn't or the results are ambiguous. That's an epic failure of logic, pal.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby charon on February 13th, 2019, 3:19 pm 

As noted, later investigators have not even been able to find the patient Maria and confirm her original story.


Which is very strange indeed. They'll have all the records. Unless she's a spy. Or dead. Or something. It's one of the hardest things to do, to disappear. Even expert criminals are found sooner or later.

So how hard have they tried, I ask myself?
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby davidm on February 13th, 2019, 3:20 pm 

PaulN » February 13th, 2019, 12:59 pm wrote:

I have found no research that provides strong documented evidence (times, locations, corroborating witnesses) for the accounts where patients float off to other houses and see people knitting, chatting, and so on.


Right, and Charon offers no sourcing of this it all. Just all the all-purpose, meaningless, "there are reports of ..." Just like Donald Trump saying "People have told me," or other saying "rumor has it that..."

And think about how stupid this is. People knit and chat at home all the time! So someone wakes up and says, "Look, I astral traveled and saw people chatting and knitting!" And this is supposed to mean ... what now?

It's just like claims of UFO abductions and the like. Everything is always vague and uncheckable. You never hear a story of an NDE in which the patient wakes up and reports that: "At 1252 North Harrington Street, a man by the name of Lucas von Pickle just carved up his wife, Mabel, with a bandsaw and then shoved her body parts into a trunk. I know this because I astral traveled during my NDE and watched it happen." Then suppose the authorities knocked on von Pickle's door and discovered that the story was true in every detail. Now THAT would impress me.

Of course, this is just what we NEVER get with NDE anecdotes.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby charon on February 13th, 2019, 3:47 pm 

Of course, this is just what we NEVER get with NDE anecdotes.


You don't understand the spiritual aspects of this. A person out of their body wouldn't want or need to see someone commit a murder, especially a stranger. Unless maybe if they were a very low soul and were drawn to that kind of thing. Most people are far more likely to be drawn to things or people they know and love. This is simple, isn't it?

I know what you'll say, that inevitably they come back reporting things or people they know so it's hardly surprising. Agreed, it looks like that and it's a good rebuttal, but what else would they do? What would you do? Or me or anybody else. Wander about, stumble here and there? Or be drawn to things that are important to you?

It's not that great a mystery, you know :-)
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby davidm on February 13th, 2019, 4:03 pm 

charon » February 13th, 2019, 1:47 pm wrote:
Of course, this is just what we NEVER get with NDE anecdotes.


You don't understand the spiritual aspects of this.


Oh, yes, of course, the spiritual aspects of this. Nice question begging.

A person out of their body wouldn't want or need to see someone commit a murder, especially a stranger. Unless maybe if they were a very low soul and were drawn to that kind of thing. Most people are far more likely to be drawn to things or people they know and love. This is simple, isn't it?


No, it's not. You didn't say that these unsubstantiated reports were of the wandering souls viewing people they know and love. You said they were just viewing people doing mundane things like chatting, knitting, reading books, etc. OK. So because of the "spiritual" aspects of what's going on, they shun Mr. von Pickle slicing and dicing his wife. Why don't they drift over to a grand wedding ceremony somewhere and report it in painstaking and joy-giving detail? It's obvious why they don't make such reports. it's for the same reason that fortune tellers, palm readers, astrologers and all the rest are always vague in their predictions and never concrete. Can you guess why that might be?
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby charon on February 13th, 2019, 4:28 pm 

Oh, yes, of course, the spiritual aspects of this. Nice question begging.


Oh, you've gone nasty again. It's strange, seeing as how you have the answers and the insights in your hands, why you're not kinder and more tolerant to people who aren't as up in it as you are. But you're not. I would be.

Yes, I mean spiritual. We're all spiritual. We all have an inward sense of others, of life. Even the most hardened materialist. See, with spiritual you can live it. With materialist you 'know' it and it can be used to browbeat others. Spiritual isn't second-hand but knowledge is. There's a lot of difference.

You said they were just viewing people


I did, I apologise. I believe the people concerned in that report were their parents (alive). I meant to put that in. That's how they were able to verify the story. I'll try to look it out when I've more time.

Why don't they drift over to a grand wedding ceremony somewhere and report it in painstaking and joy-giving detail?


For the same reasons as before, there's nothing for them there. It's a love thing, you see?

the same reason that fortune tellers, palm readers, astrologers and all the rest are always vague in their predictions and never concrete. Can you guess why that might be?


We both know very well why that might be. I don't always disagree with you :-)
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby davidm on February 13th, 2019, 4:47 pm 

charon » February 13th, 2019, 2:28 pm wrote:
Oh, yes, of course, the spiritual aspects of this. Nice question begging.


Oh, you've gone nasty again. It's strange, seeing as how you have the answers and the insights in your hands, why you're not kinder and more tolerant to people who aren't as up in it as you are. But you're not. I would be.


To call a claim question begging is not nasty at all. It's merely pointing out that you assume your conclusion -- that someone having a NDE can, or cannot, view certain things because of some imagined spiritual aspect to their condition. However one defines "spiritual" -- and there are all sorts of equivocations on the meaning of the word, as you practice below -- your claim begs the question because it assumes NDEs are non-physical, which is precisely the point of contention.

BTW, since you called me a scoundrel for asking for evidence, I hardly think it behooves you to lecture others on their alleged nastiness.

Yes, I mean spiritual. We're all spiritual. We all have an inward sense of others, of life. Even the most hardened materialist. See, with spiritual you can live it. With materialist you 'know' it and it can be used to browbeat others. Spiritual isn't second-hand but knowledge is. There's a lot of difference.


Equivocation on the meaning of the world "spiritual" -- just defining it to fit your preference. Another bit of question begging, as a matter of fact. To state that "materialists" (also undefined) "browbeat" others is a slur. So I wouldn't get on your high horse about nastiness.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby davidm on February 13th, 2019, 5:02 pm 

charon » February 13th, 2019, 12:49 pm wrote:David, how do you know I haven't read them, much less refuse to? You keep repeating it as if you have some strange inside knowledge.

I have read them. Not only that, I've read a hundred like them before. You understand? I've seen it all before. Those specific articles do NOT address the points we're making here, only some of them. Not the bits that I've repeated above.


Then please explain what you think they fail to address, and why.

If you don't know this then it's you who haven't read them. And besides, what makes you and others believe - and it is a belief - that science is the final arbiter, the great authority?


I never said that. There are plenty of things over which science has no say. It can say nothing about morals or ethics, about what job I should take, about who if anyone I should marry.

There are plenty of things in the normal world that it can't explain, much less this stuff.


Yes, it can explain this stuff. But you err when you say there are some things that science can't explain. It is more correct to say that there are some things about the physical world that science can't explain right now. Science makes discoveries incrementally, building on past successes.

NDEs? Yes science has good explanations for them, which you'd know if your read Vat's links, which I do not believe you have.

To keep on quoting and proselytising science is to argue from ignorance. That's a fact. It means you are arguing from ignorance, right?


LOL, what does this even mean? Science is an argument from ignorance? But spewing anecdotal bullshit -- that's wisdom, eh? Also, science is not religion, and scientists do not proselytize. But nice slur against science.

Which is why I say you should get out more...


No, u.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby TheVat on February 13th, 2019, 5:11 pm 

Charon, I believe PaulN pointed out something about you being OK with science when it supports your beliefs, but rejecting the same methods when it does not. You wrote...

But they haven't really got anywhere as far as I know. I haven't checked recently. So it must be their methodology, mustn't it?


Blame the scientific method. Silly ol' method didn't prove ghosts and esp and soul travel! There is also the possibility they find no conclusive results because there's nothing supernatural there. Maybe psychic powers and disembodied people aren't real. Maybe "spirit" is just a metaphor to describe certain states of mind and hunches we entertain about our existence.

You seem to blithely ignore overwhelming evidence that the mind is entirely dependent on the physical brain. Read Oliver Sach's books - damage a part of the brain and key mental functions cease, sometimes to where the self simply vanishes. Late stage Alzheimer's patients may show no consciousness whatever, let alone any memory of loved ones or knowledge of the world. Some patients can speak and interact but don't know who they are - does that sound like a brain connected mystically to an immortal soul? Again, intellectual honesty compels anyone researching this to concede the possibility that spiritualist metaphysics is plain wrong. I am not dismissing it, but i think the Sagan Rule must apply here.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby TheVat on February 13th, 2019, 5:27 pm 

Finally, I want to say something about OBE reports - operating rooms are not parapsychology labs. In the famous Maria case, how do we discount that, as Maria was regaining some level of consciousness, she heard a couple nurses chatting in the hallway, one of them says, "I was cleaning up in Rm. 348 and dang if some prankster didn't toss a blue sneaker up on the window ledge..." No one in the OR hears that because they're all pretty busy and focused on keeping Maria alive. But Maria, just lying there, does. And confabulated a memory of seeing it herself. People do this all the time when passing from unconscious states to conscious ones. Just making the point that the environment in all these NDE anecdotes is not controlled for leaks of information by mundane pathways that no one noticed. Sagan Rule.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby charon on February 13th, 2019, 6:50 pm 

David -

someone having a NDE can, or cannot, view certain things because of some imagined spiritual aspect to their condition


No, you've got confused. I didn't say that all. I said they couldn't see things because of their physical condition. Check back.

However one defines "spiritual" -- and there are all sorts of equivocations on the meaning of the word

Equivocation on the meaning of the world "spiritual" -- just defining it to fit your preference.


Not at all, I'm using it in the right sense, i.e. one's inward state or disposition. It means 'of the human spirit' - i.e. what we are, what each of us is in ourselves. It doesn't presuppose something outside of that.
To state that "materialists" (also undefined) "browbeat" others is a slur.


But you're doing it now. Listen to yourself, it's aggressive. Or, in the words of Vat, combative. It's accusatory and aggressive. Which is actually defensive, right? You're doing what all believers do, get funny when anyone challenges their beliefs.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby charon on February 13th, 2019, 6:53 pm 

Then please explain what you think they fail to address, and why
.

No. I said the bits I repeated above in the posts. You can look for those yourself.

There are plenty of things over which science has no say.


Then why do you constantly refer to science this and science that? As though it were the final word? What if science says this or that? So what? It might be wrong. In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, nothing is ever completely proven to be a final fact. A theory can always be falsified, updated, or corrected.

It is more correct to say that there are some things about the physical world that science can't explain right now


I.e. tomorrow, next year, sometime. I'd call that a faith position.

which I do not believe you have


Then you're a bigger fool that you even appear. I wouldn't say I had unless I had.

I think you come here for a fight. If this were real life you'd lose. Bear that in mind. But as long as you get your kicks having a go at someone you're happy. I've seen it all before.

Why are you here at all? Why, if you're so solidly 'science' aren't you on the science section talking science with scientists? Have you come here to debunk other posters so you can feel satisfied, a bit like smashing someone? I think you do. And I think Vat should stop you. But that's not my job.

LOL, what does this even mean? Science is an argument from ignorance? But spewing anecdotal bullshit -- that's wisdom, eh? Also, science is not religion, and scientists do not proselytize. But nice slur against science.


And now the swearing. Or are you just unpleasant naturally? I didn't say that. Read it again.
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby davidm on February 13th, 2019, 6:59 pm 

charon » February 13th, 2019, 2:28 pm wrote:
I did, I apologise. I believe the people concerned in that report were their parents (alive). I meant to put that in. That's how they were able to verify the story. I'll try to look it out when I've more time.


But who are “they”? And how did “they” “verify” this story? This is why this kind of anecdote is garbage — it is pure hearsay.

One might ask, out of curiosity, why the parents were at home reading books, chatting, knitting, or whatever they were doing, going on living perfectly mundane lives while their offspring was struggling at death’s door on an operating table. Don’t you think they would have been at their son or daughter’s side at the hospital? Does it strike you as remotely plausible that they were not?

Maybe you can come up with some reason for that. Maybe the patient unexpectedly went into cardiac arrest, while the parents, at home, assumed that he or she was fine. Anything is possible. But again, this is why anecdotes like this are worthless. It should also be noted that you talked about different dying people who have had this experience. That’s a strange state of affairs, that all their parents were at home knitting and chatting while their sons or daughters were in the hospital croaking!

People have dreams while in REM sleep. In their dreams they visit their parents, either dead or alive, or other people from their past, and often have all sorts of bizarre encounters. People dream about floating out of their bodies, into outer space, to the moon, all kinds of places. Should we believe that these ventures literally happen? If not, why not? But if we don’t think that these adventures are literally true, why should we imagine that OBEs are literally true? Why should we not think, rather, that they are akin to dreams? If a normal brain has all manner of bizarre experiences while asleep, why shouldn’t a brain in extremis also have weird experiences, perhaps even weirder than those in dreams?

Some claim that people having NDEs later recount things that they could not possibly have known while unconscious. Reliable accounts, not anecdotes, of this are needed. But even if there are cases of this, so what? Sometimes people have premonitory dreams. They may dream that loved ones die in an air crash and, lo and behold, they wake up and discover that their dreams came true! Many of the ancients thought that dreams predicted the future, and many still believe that today.

But how about all the dreams that don’t predict the future, or don’t seem to know things that should be unknowable? Such dreams constitute the vast majority of dreams. Most dreams are gibberish.

To pick out examples of cases in which people know something that they should not know, to pick them out of the vast majority of cases in which this never happens, is to cherry-pick data, to succumb to confirmation bias. If somebody dreams about a plane crash, and awakes to find that a plane crash actually happened, the most parsimonious explanation of this occurrence is that it is a coincidence. And coincidences, no matter how unlikely or implausible, happen all the time, given enough trials. If any particular event has a one in a billion chance of happening, then given a billion trials, the probability of it happening converges to 1.

One must also point out that, according to Vat’s links, only three percent of Americans claim to have had NDEs. If NDEs were a true “passage to the other side,” does this mean that only three percent of Americans are going to be crowned in glory by St. Peter? Who knows — maybe! Being an American myself, I know how many rotten people lurk in this land. Just look at who is president.

There is another stage of sleep, non-REM sleep, called deep sleep, in which there are no dreams, no experiences whatsoever. It has always amused me that many people seem to think that the mind can survive the physical destruction of the brain, but it can’t even survive deep sleep, when the brain is perfectly intact!
davidm
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Re: I think I might know what the immortal soul is.

Postby charon on February 13th, 2019, 7:06 pm 

Vat -

Blame the scientific method.


I'm not blaming the scientific method. There's nothing wrong with the scientific method as far as it goes. But in the light of many of the things we're talking about it hasn't been effective. That's indisputable.

The other version, of course, is that it's almost foolproof and all this paranormal spirit stuff is bunkum. As I keep saying, whoever thinks that is uniformed, misinformed, and needs to get out more. I really mean that too. It's compete and utter nonsense, it really is. It's woefully ignorant, in fact.

There is also the possibility they find no conclusive results because there's nothing supernatural there.


Occam's Razor would say otherwise, which is pretty obvious.

You seem to blithely ignore overwhelming evidence that the mind is entirely dependent on the physical brain


I don't, nor have I ever said it. If the brain is damaged the thinking processes don't work properly.






If you've just agreed with that last sentence you'd be wrong. There are plenty of people whose brain is damaged, like paraplegics and locked-in syndromes, who can think perfectly well. Hawking is a prime example. Dementia patients are a little more difficult, I used to work with them :-)
charon
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