Who creates the tree, if I create the seed?

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Who creates the tree, if I create the seed?

Postby edy420 on August 3rd, 2018, 9:32 pm 

I create a seed from scratch, an entirely new and separate species.
I plant this seed, and it grows into a tree.

Did I not create the tree?
Am I not responsible, for the colours of the leaves, the lengths of the stems and the overall shape and size of the tree?
How it reacts to gravity, was by my design, also how well it absorbs water and utilises photosynthesis, the type how fruit it bares etc.

Further more, if it mutates and evolves into something else over millions of years, am I not responsible for the creation of those plants too?

With evolution, I like to think of the first replicating cell as the seed of life.
Scientists don’t know where it came from or how it was made, but have a few theories on abiogenesis.

For me the answer is easy, the first self replicating cell came from God.
If this is true, then would God not be responsible for all life on earth? (any God/creator)
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Re: Who creates the tree, if I create the seed?

Postby SciameriKen on August 3rd, 2018, 10:04 pm 

Life is an arbitrary classification - what we call life probably arose from things close to what we call life.
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Re: Who creates the tree, if I create the seed?

Postby edy420 on August 4th, 2018, 6:33 am 

As a theist, I’d like to argue that the first self replicating cell and the laws of physics are all created by God, but I have no scientific proof other than faith (likewise the opposing arguments).
There is no scientific proof either way so I digress, for the sake of philosophical exploration.
I’d like to explore an alternate way of looking at evolution, where we acknowledge the importance of the laws of physics.

SciameriKen » 04 Aug 2018, 11:04 wrote:Life is an arbitrary classification - what we call life probably arose from things close to what we call life.


Then, things “close” to what we call life, should be considered the seed of life.

Because, our family tree goes back further than our records.
Back before your great great great royal grandfather, before the Neanderthal, before the primeape, the first land animal and the first fish.
All the way back to the first self replicating cell and even further still.
Can we continue back to the things “close” to what we call life and before them too.

I wonder if the first self replicating cell had the beginnings of the human being.
Or is it more to do with the laws of physics, than the theory of evolution.
It was more than chance that we have legs, due to the way body mass is effected by gravity.
More than chance that we developed eyes, due to the way light reflects off of various complex atomic configurations.
More than chance that we have ears, due to the way that atoms vibrate when agitated.
Our entire composition would be meaningless if any of the laws of physics were absent.

Quite simply, the recipe for human life, is in the laws of physics, more so than the first self replicating cell.

Because, if we talk about things “close” to what we call life as being the seed of life, then what is the seed of life anything other than the laws of physics.

ie. things “close” to what we call life are all elements of which their characteristics, are predetermined by the laws of physics.
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Re: Who creates the tree, if I create the seed?

Postby zetreque on August 4th, 2018, 11:44 am 

edy420 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:32 pm wrote:I create a seed from scratch, an entirely new and separate species.
I plant this seed, and it grows into a tree.


Even if you created the laws of physics (your seed of life),
Who created you?
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Re: Who creates the tree, if I create the seed?

Postby davidm on August 4th, 2018, 1:39 pm 

edy420 » August 4th, 2018, 4:33 am wrote:
I wonder if the first self replicating cell had the beginnings of the human being.


It didn't. Also, the first replicator was not a cell.

Or is it more to do with the laws of physics, than the theory of evolution.


Physics constrains what evolution can produce, but evolution produces the forms, by an endless string of contingent accidents.

The first simple replicator arose naturally, from underlying physics and chemistry. There was no designer, no god.
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Re: Who creates the tree, if I create the seed?

Postby Serpent on August 4th, 2018, 3:33 pm 

edy420 » August 3rd, 2018, 8:32 pm wrote:For me the answer is easy, the first self replicating cell came from God.
If this is true, then would God not be responsible for all life on earth? (any God/creator)

If>then / else
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Re: Who creates the tree, if I create the seed?

Postby edy420 on August 5th, 2018, 1:18 am 

Let’s say we could recreate the first self replicating cell, and place it on a planet similar to the earth that our ancestral cell started with.

How different would the creatures be that evolved from it, compared to ours.
Surely it would develop eyes due to light, legs due to gravity, survival instincts and eventually a complex intellectual.

Ive heard someone say that we could have evolved with 3 eyes and no teeth.
But I highly doubt other humanoids would be much different anatomically, given a similar amount of time to evolve.

We struggle to recreate robotics that rival our own bodies, which are able to run a day or two on the energy of a banana.
We have thumbs, two eyes and teeth for a reason.
The way our limbs utilise pivot point mechanics, and muscular dynamics is a marvellous feat of engineering.
The robots we create look similar to us, because it’s an efficient design in terms of mobility and utility.
Or else four legged robots look similar to four legged creatures. (Ones that are missing knee or anckle joints are less functional)
The closer a robot looks to an existing creature, the more functional utility and mobility it has, while remaining efficient.
For example, a robot with tracks or wheels and 5 arms has less functional utility than a humanoid one.

The reason why we developed the way we did, was all guided by the laws of physics.

If the laws remain the same, then subjects of evolution may have less randomness involved than we think.
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Re: Who creates the tree, if I create the seed?

Postby davidm on August 5th, 2018, 10:52 am 

As previously noted, the first replicators were not cells. Cells are very complex; the first replicators were very simple.

As also previously noted, physics obviously constrains evolution, but evolution produces forms, not physics.

As to the rest, what structures evolve depends on the environment. Eyes are certainly useful, and have evolved independently many times, but not all animals have eyes, and no living things outside the animal kingdom have eyes. Some animals lost their eyes while evolving.

The human form is not at all optimal; basically, it’s a mess in many ways. There is no correlation between our anatomy and our intelligence.

Many creatures are highly intelligent and wholly different in form from us. Ants invented farming and domesticated animals 50 million years ago, long before humans appeared. Many animals make and use tools, can count, and can think abstractly. Other species communicate with their fellow and arguably have complex languages that we don’t understand. Elephants, whales, dolphins, crows and parrots are all highly intelligent, and look and act nothing like us.

We build robots like us because we like things that are familiar. If cows could build robots, they would look like cows. If cows could have gods, they would like cows.
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Re: Who creates the tree, if I create the seed?

Postby Brent696 on March 3rd, 2019, 6:00 pm 

edy420 » August 3rd, 2018, 8:32 pm


I create a seed from scratch, an entirely new and separate species.
I plant this seed, and it grows into a tree.
Did I not create the tree?
Am I not responsible, for the colours of the leaves, the lengths of the stems and the overall shape and size of the tree?
How it reacts to gravity, was by my design, also how well it absorbs water and utilises photosynthesis, the type how fruit it bares etc.


The easy answer is yes, all the information is within the seed; as such you have created the tree wherein, the only variable is time.

This would also translate into the abortion debate as from the moment the chromosomes from each parent unite, all the information for the child is established, and scientifically speaking this unit of flesh (zygote) is no longer part and parcel of the mother’s body but is distinct even as it’s DNA is distinct. It is simply dependent upon the host organism for their nutrients, even as they will be dependent after birth and for years to come. (Not to get into an abortion debate)

Further more, if it mutates and evolves into something else over millions of years, am I not responsible for the creation of those plants too?
With evolution, I like to think of the first replicating cell as the seed of life.
Scientists don’t know where it came from or how it was made, but have a few theories on abiogenesis.


This is a bit trickier, though it is true scientists have a few theories, they also have major roadblocks to overcome before they can be established with any true conviction.

There is though, another possibility when it comes to life as a function within this universe. General relativity has let us to the idea of a block universe, what this means and is hard for many to grasp is that Time is illusionary, at least the outward flow of Time. The universe is complete and stable, and it is only our consciousness that is travelling, only us that is actually moving. This negates any need for evolution, it is more like jumping from one frame to another, one level of complexity to another, and where one layer can be said to be dependent upon the other.

A simply planetary metaphor might be Oxygen, it is necessary for life, but is it the source of life as we consider a timeline for the planet. If you think of yourself as a body, then in looking for the “source” you would naturally trace the physical elements. But if you are a theist, and perhaps one that accepts we are a soul, a point of consciousness, that merely inhabits the physical body so as to interact with this earthly environment, then the “source” of your life, as you are consciousness, is that condensed point within the universal wave of consciousness that congeals into a self, and the awareness of such. Metaphorically we are all surfing this universal ocean of consciousness, each upon their own board, but the external world is unchanging, it is the wave of consciousness that is pushing us forward and from which we experience the passage of time.

For me the answer is easy, the first self replicating cell came from God.
If this is true, then would God not be responsible for all life on earth? (any God/creator)


To deal with God, as Creator, we must step back to how does Something came from Nothing, in this God can be said to be the active principle as He blows upon the Nothingness and creates the waves from which all things arise, creating the quantum waves from which all particles are given birth, the elements, the planets, and including the wave of consciousness.

When God created, He created all things, and supplied the information for the shape, height, width, and “length” of the universe as it all happens at once. At the risk of being repetitive, the universe is complete, it is an illusion that it is moving or changing at all, much less evolving, in the same way we move sideways through spatial space, likewise are we moving forward through space/time as the wave of consciousness sweeps us along.

In my opinion
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Re: Who creates the tree, if I create the seed?

Postby Serpent on March 3rd, 2019, 6:34 pm 

edy420 » August 3rd, 2018, 8:32 pm wrote:I create a seed from scratch, an entirely new and separate species.

Where did you find the "scratch"?
I plant this seed, and it grows into a tree.

It won't grow into anything without soil, sunlight and water, and you didn't create those.

Did I not create the tree?

No. It was a collaborative effort.

For me the answer is easy, the first self replicating cell came from God.
If this is true, then would God not be responsible for all life on earth? (any God/creator)

IF
Support that hypothesis with a preponderance of evidence and we'll renegotiate the theory.
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Re: Who creates the tree, if I create the seed?

Postby charon on March 3rd, 2019, 7:06 pm 

edy420 on August 4th, 2018, 2:32 am
I create a seed from scratch


It's academic, because you couldn't. At least, not as far as anybody knows :-)
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