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Brent696 wrote:We all want to be good, but we know within our hearts we are not. So to attain this goodness we begin distorting "values", a religious man claims his goodness by stating "I believe", while an liberal abortion supporter claims to be supporting women's health, all the time each is weighing, contrasting, their own position against that of another.
This "weighing", "comparing", "competing", is what in ancient times was understood as Envy, envy is more than simply desiring what another possesses, it is the whole concept, context, of determining one's "worth" by the act of comparison.
This is all stated to apply to those who would follow, normal citizens trying to live their lives and vote as best they see fit, and having opinions that might sway from the left to the right. We all practice a well rehearsed game of self deception, surrendering the search for TRUTH for the advancement of our own sense of value. Thus we are "shallow" and self centered.
We might say a selfish people end up supporting a selfish government, in contrast those who are less self centered sit down and work together for the good of all.
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edy420 » February 1st, 2019, 3:45 pm wrote:I heard these statements recently,
There’s a stigma if your left wing but have a few right wing values and vice versa.
If your on either side, you most likely recruit centralist to closer align with your beliefs. Or if your central then your shunned from both sides.
Essentially this is a war of Good vs Evil where both sides see themselves as good, and they demonise the other.
Why have we become so streamlined in this binary fashion?
Is this not essentially two religions that co-exist?
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If your on either side, you most likely recruit centralist to closer align with your beliefs. Or if your central then your shunned from both sides.
I don't understand this
No. The policies are more concerned with money - how to collect, spend and regulate it - than with faith.
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edy420 » April 12th, 2019, 7:28 pm wrote:If your on either side, you most likely recruit centralist to closer align with your beliefs. Or if your central then your shunned from both sides.
I don't understand this
The topic of abortion for example. someone who is sitting on the fence will be influenced by those who are passionately for or against abortion.
If they choose pro-choice, they may be exiled from a passionate group of friends who are pro-life or vice versa.
Or the Trump contraversy. Trump supporters can not walk through certain states or cities wearing a MAGA hat, without being threatened verbally or physically.
Its safer to either agree with people who are passionate about politics, or keep your political beleifs hidden in a closet.
The policies yes. But the voters themselves beleive that they are right to priorotise their values above the values of all others... Religion in a nut shell.
Politics however is forcing your beleifs onto others, is it not?
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Not if the election is fair and the constitution protects minority rights.
Unless you're on a deserted island, you don't expect to get your own way about everything all the time. Living in society means putting up with other people who don't agree with you, and sometimes being overruled.
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edy420 » April 13th, 2019, 12:56 pm wrote:So, sacrificing your belief, for the faith in another system? Ok.
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Nobody's taken away your belief. Obviously.
Nobody's forced, or even asked you to give up your belief.
Nobody's forced you to keep your beliefs secret. Obviously.Agreed. But if I act on my belief, then I need to keep it secret. My employer would probably fire me if I told him I gave my wife a coat hanger abortion and I'm an avid cannabis user. (PS not true)If people find your beliefs unacceptable, stop associating with those people, or they'll stop associating with you. You and they are free to select your friends. In order to have any beliefs, one must give up universal approval - which you never had anyway.
Lol this reminds me of a discussion with a methanphetamine abuser. He said he'd been awake 9 days in a row and that he was at a party where everyone smoked it. He believes it should be legal.. are you implying that he should stick to his group of friends and ignore the legality of the drug? He found a group of friends, so he should just ignore the law?Nobody's making you take on, or profess, or approve the faith of any other system
What if I eleive in socialism, and disagree with a democracy that is susceptible to corruption? My elders tried to create their own currency. They were forced to take on, profess and approve the faith of the government system.Nobody's forcing you to terminate a pregnancy
Depends on the legality. Some woman are forced to have the child. One party wants to allow it upto birth, the opposition want to make it illegal altogether. You can't have it both ways, in countries where it's illegal, woman are denied appropriate medical assistance.The only thing - the ONLY thing - you lose is the right to force your beliefs on other people
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The law is, forcing the beleif of the general public, onto each and every individual.
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Your beliefs are free. Your actions have a price
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edy420 » April 13th, 2019, 10:00 pm wrote:Serpent, that all applies to religion.
Take my perspective on abortion. I can reason, and come to the conclusion that termination pre third trimester is ok. This is my beleif. However, if I act on it,
I will be judged.
I sacrifice my own beleif, for the greater good of Christianity.
[Your beliefs are free. Your actions have a price]
In religion, the price is hell. In politics, it's a cell.
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Serpent » April 13th, 2019, 11:31 pm wrote:I will be judged.
Of course you will! We're all being judged, every minute that another human being is aware of us. Just as we are constantly judging every other person of whom we are aware.
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edy420 » February 1st, 2019, 3:45 pm wrote:...This binary alignment of group identity is just starting to take effect in my country, or at least I’m starting to notice it. If your left wing, then other left wings are good and right wing are evil. Essentially this is a war of Good vs Evil where both sides see themselves as good, and they demonise the other.
Why have we become so streamlined in this binary fashion?
Is it because of social media helps us attach ourselves to an establish group identity?
Is this not essentially two religions that co-exist?
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charon » November 12th, 2019, 11:01 pm wrote:I don't do beliefs, opinions and ideas, they're a waste of time. You can't run society on ideas, ideas are nothing. People need food, clothes, work, housing, so supply it. That's not an idea, that's a necessity.
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Serpent » November 13th, 2019, 5:11 am wrote:charon » November 12th, 2019, 11:01 pm wrote:I don't do beliefs, opinions and ideas, they're a waste of time. You can't run society on ideas, ideas are nothing. People need food, clothes, work, housing, so supply it. That's not an idea, that's a necessity.
So, how do you figure on supplying those necessities to billions of people?
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charon » November 13th, 2019, 10:54 am wrote:... You don't feed yourself or your family according to an ideology, you go to the shop like everybody else.
But the whole problem with this world is that it's so chock full of ideologies and concepts, all dividing people and preventing them getting what they need.
We could easily feed, clothe and house the world, every single person, but it's governments, religious divisions, nationalism, political policies, terrorism, and all the rest if it, all based on beliefs and concepts, which prevent it.
We give more importance to words (which is all it amounts to) than looking after our fellow human beings. It's a fact.
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charon » November 13th, 2019, 2:18 pm wrote:I think you're talking for the sake of it. Of course they can change their beliefs but beliefs still divide. Beliefs are irrelevant to organising necessities for people. I don't understand the confusion.
Ideas are fine if we want to write a film or a book, or some other thing, but you don't live your life ideologically; life is real, factual.
I know all the arguments for it - 'My faith gives me guidance', 'My creed gives me purpose', and all the rest of it. Which all implies that without a set of words, or a book, they're completely lost and confused. But they're obviously completely confused with the book anyway, they just think they're not.
I don't know why we can't just be down-to-earth and simple.
Get the people sorted out, it's not that difficult.
Much easier than going to the moon or something.
Like I said, when you want food you just go to a shop, you don't need an ideology to do it.
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What confusion?
Ideas exist. People have ideas. People act on their ideas. People organize themselves and their activities, their relations and transactions around the ideas they hold.
Go convince the youth of Hong Kong that their convictions don't matter.
I said people organize their societies according to a world-view that they hold in common.
Because there are too many of us.
Organizing disparate, needy, anxious, unstable humans is the hardest thing in the world.
Like i said, in order to have shops, first you must conceive the idea of shops
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charon » November 14th, 2019, 2:00 am wrote:What confusion?
You don't think there's any confusion in the world? Extraordinary. Would we be killing each other if we weren't confused?
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Serpent » November 14th, 2019, 6:28 pm wrote:charon » November 14th, 2019, 2:00 am wrote:What confusion?
You don't think there's any confusion in the world? Extraordinary. Would we be killing each other if we weren't confused?
I see you've switched rails. OK
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.you are saying it's not ideas per se, but rather ideologies that are a major source of human woe and misery
But, I gotta ask: isn't the whole range of ideas that are called "liberal democracy," -- religious and sexual freedom, equal rights, justice for all, democratic rule, fair labor practices, tolerance of diversity, social safety nets for the elderly and infirm, etc. -- isn't that, erm, an ideology?
Why is it that the nations that are most committed to that ideology are also the nations which, in many many sociological surveys, have the highest rates of happiness and lowest rates of misery? The so-called Nordic Model seems to be especially successful.
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charon » November 14th, 2019, 6:02 pm wrote:[I see you've switched rails. ]
Eh? I said there was confusion in the world. Obviously there's complete confusion! The place is a mess. Anyone can be clear about little things but who is totally clear? No one I know.
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charon » November 14th, 2019, 6:25 pm wrote:Confusion is confusion, it doesn't matter what about.
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