Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

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Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby xma on March 20th, 2019, 1:02 am 

Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]
https://superhumanity-understanding.blo ... ncept.html

Let's discuss !!
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby BadgerJelly on March 20th, 2019, 2:09 am 

For a better sense how about starting here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return

The concept of "eternal recurrence", the idea that with infinite time and a finite number of events, events will recur again and again infinitely, is central to the writings of Friedrich Nietzsche.[3] As Heidegger points out in his lectures on Nietzsche, Nietzsche's first mention of eternal recurrence, in aphorism 341 of The Gay Science (cited below), presents this concept as a hypothetical question rather than postulating it as a fact.


From Nietzsche himself:

Whoever thou mayest be, beloved stranger, whom I meet here for the first time, avail thyself of this happy hour and of the stillness around us, and above us, and let me tell thee something of the thought which has suddenly risen before me like a star which would fain shed down its rays upon thee and every one, as befits the nature of light. - Fellow man! Your whole life, like a sandglass, will always be reversed and will ever run out again, - a long minute of time will elapse until all those conditions out of which you were evolved return in the wheel of the cosmic process. And then you will find every pain and every pleasure, every friend and every enemy, every hope and every error, every blade of grass and every ray of sunshine once more, and the whole fabric of things which make up your life. This ring in which you are but a grain will glitter afresh forever. And in every one of these cycles of human life there will be one hour where, for the first time one man, and then many, will perceive the mighty thought of the eternal recurrence of all things:- and for mankind this is always the hour of Noon.


This is a very interesting hypothetical to consider in life. That being if you had to live your life over and over again would you be happy with to do so?

Note: this has nothing to do with some proposed “matrix” though.
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby charon on March 20th, 2019, 8:35 am 

eternal recurrence


Haven't we done this before or was it some other forum I was on? Can't remember.

Anyway, it was mostly me saying life doesn't repeat itself. People repeat themselves because they're stupid, but life doesn't :-)
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby Serpent on March 20th, 2019, 9:58 am 

OK I get it now.
You don't live your own life over and over; you live some random other life each time around.
But, again: If you can't do anything about it, what's the point of knowing about it?
At least, with regular transmigration, you get promotions for good behaviour, and eventually get off the treadmill.
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby xma on March 20th, 2019, 11:26 am 

charon » March 20th, 2019, 6:35 am wrote:Anyway, it was mostly me saying life doesn't repeat itself. People repeat themselves because they're stupid, but life doesn't :-)


well i There is from the point of view of any researcher of lives through the PC, - there is a limited pool of possible distinguishable lives through the PC. (due to combinatorial limitations to digital data of finite length).

are you sure that when all the watched TV shows / movies / music / family photos coincide / absolutely all your correspondence and even mouse movements, then this will not be considered a pandering to life?

if that - they can not coincide - because It is impossible to choose indefinitely from a limited pool of possible options for such data, when that happens, all the options will be selected and they will only have to repeat. do you understand that

(well, that is, the number of different videos (and according to what you can see on the monitor / TV screen in your life) is not infinite). and within eternity you revise everything that can be reconsidered: D and then on a new one ..
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby xma on March 20th, 2019, 11:44 am 

Serpent » March 20th, 2019, 7:58 am wrote:But, again: If you can't do anything about it, what's the point of knowing about it?
treadmill.


Well, we can assume that the lives of all the people around you are your future lives, as well as the rest of humanity. accordingly, it is logical to think how to find a balance between own interests and the surrounding reality.


Serpent » March 20th, 2019, 7:58 am wrote:At least, with regular transmigration, you get promotions for good behaviour, and eventually get off the treadmill.


not, it is impossible to get off the treadmill - but knowing that you can spread a straw, you can at least think about it .. and it would be better - if all of humanity thought about it: D
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby Serpent on March 20th, 2019, 12:43 pm 

xma » March 20th, 2019, 10:44 am wrote:[But, again: If you can't do anything about it, what's the point of knowing about it?]

Well, we can assume that the lives of all the people around you are your future lives, as well as the rest of humanity.

I got that when I read the essay, after which I edited my post. Not fast enough.

So then:
Where do you get the idea that you will live other lives, not your own, over and over?
Where do you get the idea that there is some kind of pool of souls and whichever one is netted goes into the next baby?
Indeed, how does the putative Fisher even tell where one soul ends and another begins? (It gets crowded in there after 7B - and
where did all the new ones come from?)
For that matter, what makes you so sure it's a human body you get every time around?
There are an awful lot of unfounded assumptions in this theory.

accordingly, it is logical to think how to find a balance between own interests and the surrounding reality.

If all you're doing is reliving somebody's previous life, you have to repeat all of his crimes and mistakes, instead of your own.

not, it is impossible to get off the treadmill - but knowing that you can spread a straw, you can at least think about it .. and it would be better - if all of humanity thought about it: D

Isn't this just a cumbersome - not to say implausible - version of Rawls' veil of ignorance?
http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803115359424
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby PaulN on March 20th, 2019, 12:53 pm 

As is often the case with personal conjectures, the question is why should we accept any of this as a valid description of reality? Another minor point of logic: if the lives of others presently around me are my "future lives," then how would time cycle backwards so that I could be born as one of my contemporaries? What sort of metaphysical mechanism prevents me from going into the actual future, or reincarnating as an alien, or even getting uploaded into a future supercomputer and some sort of virtual immortality? Nothing in what you say offers any grounds for accepting what seems an unproven hypothesis.

(just saw Serpent's post....excuse some redundancy)
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby charon on March 20th, 2019, 2:08 pm 

If we can't live properly now what's the point of other lives?
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby Serpent on March 20th, 2019, 2:33 pm 

A point would require a Pointer, in which case, we might as well stick with old Nick we know.
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby xma on March 22nd, 2019, 7:38 am 

PaulN » March 20th, 2019, 10:53 am wrote:As is often the case with personal conjectures, the question is why should we accept any of this as a valid description of reality? Another minor point of logic: if the lives of others presently around me are my "future lives," then how would time cycle backwards so that I could be born as one of my contemporaries?


well i I declare that the number of different variations of the universal being is limited, since limited to the number of such distinguishable through the PC .. (according to the rules of combinatorics).

and once it is limited, then in time all possible variants of universal existence will be selected, and then there will be nothing left for them - except to be repeated, and so forever ..
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby TheVat on March 22nd, 2019, 9:25 am 

Please see forum guidelines. PCF posts require you offer support to statements and make reasoned arguments. To "declare" something is not a valid argument. And you don't really answer Paul's objections.

Thanks for visiting.
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby TheVat on March 24th, 2019, 9:40 am 

Unlocked due to intense popular demand. John Searle, Noam Chomsly, and Barack Obama will be stopping by later to weigh in.
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby Serpent on March 24th, 2019, 10:31 am 

I did vaguely wonder where it went, but would hardly call that intense.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/philosophy-of-mind/The-soul-and-personal-identity
xma -- I declare that the number of different variations of the universal being 1is limited, since limited to the number of such distinguishable2 through the PC .. (according to the rules of combinatorics).

and once it is limited, then in time3 all possible variants of universal existence 4will be selected,5 and then there will be nothing left for them - except to be repeated, and so forever ..

Q1: What is a universal being?
Q2: What is distinguishable from what?
Q3: How long?
Q4: Does this include all life forms on all habitable planets throughout all the galaxies?
Q5: What is the means of selection and what prevents it selecting the same +/-700 trillion life-forms over and over again?
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby A_Seagull on March 24th, 2019, 11:03 am 

Nietzsche's suggestion as referenced in the OP is pure fantasy. The only interesting aspect to it is why people might want to consider it and create a shared fantasy.
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby Serpent on March 24th, 2019, 11:11 am 

I'm curious as to how they imagine it would work.
First, there is a presumption of finite events in infinite time - why suppose either?
Then there is the pathetic underestimation of the size of the universe - the sheer number of things that can potentially be recombined.

But I'm actually more curious - like Seagull - as to why this should be contemplated at all.
Ever materialist and utilitarian, me:
What's it good for?
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby BadgerJelly on March 24th, 2019, 1:49 pm 

xma » March 20th, 2019, 11:44 pm wrote:
Serpent » March 20th, 2019, 7:58 am wrote:But, again: If you can't do anything about it, what's the point of knowing about it?
treadmill.


Well, we can assume that the lives of all the people around you are your future lives, as well as the rest of humanity. accordingly, it is logical to think how to find a balance between own interests and the surrounding reality.


Serpent » March 20th, 2019, 7:58 am wrote:At least, with regular transmigration, you get promotions for good behaviour, and eventually get off the treadmill.


not, it is impossible to get off the treadmill - but knowing that you can spread a straw, you can at least think about it .. and it would be better - if all of humanity thought about it: D


This is the point of it. It is a hypothetical to contemplate and consider the views of others. Perspective is useful, therefore being actively conscious of other’s perspectives seems like a pretty decent mental exercise to me.
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby Serpent on March 24th, 2019, 2:21 pm 

Is there not a less - comprehensive - method of achieving that end?
Can we not consider other people's POV without involving eternity, all the other sentient beings that have ever lived or will live, making all these vast assumptions, where one aspect the universe is infinite while another is finite? Seems like we'd be spending a far greater portion of the mental exercise trying to come to grips with the hypothetical problem than solving it.

How about something pithy and folksy, like:
"Walk a mile in his shoes."
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby Brent696 on March 24th, 2019, 3:24 pm 

Where is Shirley Maclaine when you need her, I'm feeling out on a limb here.
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby xma on March 26th, 2019, 9:40 am 

Serpent » March 24th, 2019, 8:31 am wrote:Q4: Does this include all life forms on all habitable planets throughout all the galaxies?

yes

Serpent » March 24th, 2019, 8:31 am wrote:Q5: What is the means of selection and what prevents it selecting the same +/-700 trillion life-forms over and over again?

then you need a transition point in complete cyclicity, but this is impossible .. (but it is not so easy to prove this formally, so you can simply assume that the very fact of such a development is insignificant),

but even if they do not agree with this, in any case, the very understanding that there is a possibility that you will have to live forever not only your lives but also the skins of other people (including those who live now) can already cast on certain thoughts about what is possible in the interest of all people to have a little more order on it on the planet ..


you understand the basic idea - now it is not possible to investigate something and process data outside the PC .. but the PC itself allows you to give a person no more than a limited amount of data (even if the person would live forever) ...

those. if a person explored the universe through the PC, without being limited by time - then he would not be able to distinguish between a more limited set of different universes (/ civilizations / people and their possible lives) .. do you understand this or not?

well i There is a limited number of books - each page in which is unique, just because the number of possible permutations of letters on a page is limited to a finite number ..

similarly with video and images, and with music every second in which is unique ..

this is pure combinatorics (section of discrete mathematics), for example, a simplified example of arrangements with repetitions of 4 elements a, b, c, d with 2 is 4 ^ 2 = 16, these placements are as follows:
aa, ab, ac, ad, ba, bb, bc, bd, ca, cb, cc, cd, da, db, dc, dd.

Now imagine that there are 26 letters (conditionally), and letters on page 1800, we get 26 ^ 1800 different pages with text there .. you can also calculate the same with pixels in the image ..
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby TheVat on March 26th, 2019, 9:54 am 

Sort of a John Rawls ethics in all this, eh?
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby Serpent on March 26th, 2019, 4:08 pm 

I tried that gambit, but it seems, in order to be more decent to one's fellow man, it is necessary also to relive every instance of the entire gamut of extraterrestrial existence, on 99.99999999999999999999999999999% of which we, in our present guise, have 0 influence.
Seems like an unnecessarily long pier for short dive.
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby xma on March 26th, 2019, 11:59 pm 

Serpent » March 26th, 2019, 2:08 pm wrote:I tried that gambit, but it seems, in order to be more decent to one's fellow man, it is necessary also to relive every instance of the entire gamut of extraterrestrial existence, on 99.99999999999999999999999999999% of which we, in our present guise, have 0 influence.
Seems like an unnecessarily long pier for short dive.


Well, this is everyone’s choice - to score everything as “all the same in the universe is an ass”, and she “pretends like that”.

although in reality we cannot change anything, within our capabilities, only to discuss - people simply refuse to believe that they are afloat in this life - not because they are so wonderful (smart and so on), but simply because By chance ... and in their conditions, absolutely anyone emerges, and the souls of people within eternity are in fact absolutely identical ..

these are the pies ..

as for other stars, there we are not able to change anything, it remains only to hope that when they do it there, although they will even do it here (on our planet) - when they have already put everything on the shelves, this is also a big question .. perhaps humanity is forever doomed to live in ignorance about its own perspectives of being and in ignorance ..
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby Serpent on March 27th, 2019, 1:12 am 

I have no idea what you just said, or how it was a response to my post.
Perhaps I am doomed to live in ignorance.
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby BadgerJelly on March 27th, 2019, 3:07 am 

Serpent » March 27th, 2019, 1:12 pm wrote:I have no idea what you just said, or how it was a response to my post.
Perhaps I am doomed to live in ignorance.


Agreed! Seems to have made the error of assuming what has been written makes sense to everyone else as much as themselves.

Xma -

Care to speak more plainly and carefully? Analogies are only useful if the basic idea and thougth is already reasonably explicit to those you’re trying to talk with.
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby TheVat on March 27th, 2019, 9:06 am 

It's obvious that "these are the pies" is a clever and ironic reference to "Sweeney Todd: the demon barber of Fleet Street."

Seriously, Badger has the patience of a saint.
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby BadgerJelly on March 29th, 2019, 4:19 am 

Note: The Muse is upon me today so apologies if this goes a little off the rails for some of you. I’m trying to be open and express what I think as best I can - when I do this I sadly have to rely on some charity of interpretation not blank dismissal simply because it is possible to take my words as viscious weapons meant only to degrade and harm your sensibililties ;)

I can be patient and I can be EXTREMELY impatient too! ;) I’m sure you’ve seen both.

Anyway, I do remember thinking about Nietzsche’s “eternal recurrence” some time ago and initially struggling with the point of it. It is all well and good to say “walk a mile in his shoes” blithely and then moving on. This, if you remember BIV, ties into what I call the real use of the hypothetical?

What both the OP and Nietzsche reveal, purposely or not, is the approach to the “self” as “other”. I’ve been of the mind for a long time that what I see in others is due to how I view myself and what I can and could do; my capacities and capabilities. This is not to wrap oneself in a sense of solipsism!

The thing is about “walk a mile in his shoes” it is a fact that we DO this yet distance ourselves from it. All the lives lived adn to be lived ae part of my comprehension in some sense or another. I am me because I am able to extend myself into-the-world - not wanting to sound too much like Heidegger here!

Think about how you act when you read or see something you dislike, be it an opinion expressed, an act of violence or whatever else gets the blood boiling. To understand that that person IS YOU is the last thing you want, but it IS YOU ... and I immediately think you’ll be inclined to protest here with thoughts such as “I’d never do that!” or worse still “I’m incapable of doing that! Of course, like you all I too see something I dislike and react in the same manner, yet afterwards I am capable of looking at this as a repulsion toward my own being not some “other”.

Another caveat here would be to mention “relativism” alongside “solipsism”. My repsonse is the same. The point is to address the hypothetical as a hypothetical NOT as a reality (whatever that means!). I am, and I’m NOT, saying that all perspectives are relative. If you view someone acting in a manner you dislike you don’t see it from any other perspective than your own, you see yourself through their acts not through their eyes.

Nietzsche’s “eternal recurrence” is also meant as you having to live your life our over and over and over again. By this he meant, in part, that if you were to pick one book or one movie to use for the rest of your life what would it be? Now view your actual life as this “book” or “movie”. Basically make or life worthy of living, fill it to the brim and explore all facets you can. The OP has taken this on with a sense of empathy and contemplation of “other” not merely “like you” but “AS you”. Those whose adherance of some pure, and fallacious, rationality will aboid the moral premise set before them and dismiss the hypothetical as “unrealistic” missing the entire point of the investigation into the sense of “self”.

In relation to other posts/threads

You may see now why I do see something of a sense of common ground in the apparent rantings of people like Nick_A ? I don’t believe they are “other” to me anymore than I believe I am “other” to them. Dislike of other views comes about due to not beign able to approach their views as your own and there is little hope of approaching their views as your own if you, and you will, dislike them - hence the conundrum of depreciating yourself for the sake of yourself ... it’s frankly the most bizarre and important discovery of my life and I cannot MAKE someone willingly cause themselves massive personal upheaval just to back up my position. I don’t actually know how it is possible anymore than it is possible to persuade someone that cutting off their own ar would be a useful act.

From this I would say I have a pretty reasonable appropriation of what “religious” thought is trying to express. The benefit of the hypothetical is as a “religious” narrative to be played with relatively safely rather than me saying “Stop eating for 30 days, isolate yourself, and contemplate nothing else other than your own hubris and pointless existence!” When you’re broken down and torn apart, when you’ve been locked in our Room 101, then you’ll attach what you experience to the most apparent narrative you can - for many this is religious in nature due to education and upbringing. To add the experience that manifests from this is NOT one that can be framed rationally and it is precisely the sense of the intuitive being, the rational contemplation, that fails at the height of emotional stimulation.
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby charon on March 29th, 2019, 6:54 am 

I don’t believe they are “other” to me anymore than I believe I am “other” to them.


If you're very self-centred then others will always be 'other' to you, probably to be used and abused.

If one isn't self-centred the the other is you.
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby BadgerJelly on March 29th, 2019, 7:31 am 

charon » March 29th, 2019, 6:54 pm wrote:
I don’t believe they are “other” to me anymore than I believe I am “other” to them.


If you're very self-centred then others will always be 'other' to you, probably to be used and abused.

If one isn't self-centred the the other is you.


Same differences. Both extreme ends lead to the same logical conclusions. If I am utterly selffish and only care about myself then I must optimise my time around others and, if smart enough, will realise that treating people well and looking out for them is advantageous for my own selfish existence. OR if I’m utterly selfless then I come to understand that sacrificing myself for the betterment of others only works optimally if I sustain myself long enough to provide a long lasting source of strength for others, thus I will have to take care of myself first in order to be of use to others.

Basically, to be utterly selfish means you resort to selflessness, and being utterly selfless means you resort to selfish.

From what I can tell Nietzsche’s encapsulated this in “Beyond Good and Evil” and may just as well have framed it as Beyond Selfishness and Selflessness.

I imagine Kierkegaard’s “Either Or” deals with this problem of dichotomy and morals too, in part(?), but I’ve not gotten hold of a copy yet.
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Re: Nietzsche's expanded concept [superhumanity]

Postby charon on March 29th, 2019, 7:53 am 

Badger -

Same differences


No, not at all, they're completely different. The self-centred person utilises everything around them. Things, people and nature exist only for their advantage, their utility. That's not love, that's not civilised behaviour.

The unselfish person doesn't have that. His behaviour is totally different, which is friendship, love, compassion, mercy. Then there's real generosity, cooperation, and so on.

It's not two ends of a sliding scale, they're two entirely different and unrelated things.
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