No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Nick_A on May 3rd, 2019, 8:46 pm 

edy420 » May 3rd, 2019, 5:40 pm wrote:Nick,

While I agree with you, our neighbors may not. I have gay friends who dont agree with what I think a nuclear family should look like. And I respect their opinion.

Everyone likes to think, if the world would just do what i did, then we'd all get along. But we are all unique, and we should focus on accommodating that fact more than trying to force others to be like us.

I'm not so sure that there was a period when we could say, this was the high point, and we declined from here. If I'm thinking of the same era as you, when nuclear families was a norm, then we are neglecting the fact that gay people were afraid for their lives. Afraid of their parents and afraid to be open and honest.

There's pros and cons between that era and 2019. It's not as simple as comparing them and saying, that one was better.

The important thing is if you feel it has value essential for our species to have a free society. If you do then you'll support the ideal of the nuclear family.


A free society would accept all families. If transgender communities want to be themselves and have their families that's ok with me. I dont like that they want to implement their rules and values into my house. Probably as much as they dont want me to implement my ideology in their home.

I watched a gender neutral family on YouTube. They basically forced their sons to be girls. I think it's wrong. But, they probably think it's wrong I teach my children to pray.

I think the goal should be, an open and honest society.


It isn't a matter of thinking like us but of understanding energies. The ideal of the nuclear family refers to a necessary blend of energies which furthers the course of feeling higher "Values."

I just posted thread on "Obligations and Rights" to try and and clarify the need for grace in a free society

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=35250

It isn't a matter of thinking like us but rather of recognizing what makes freedom possible.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Lomax on May 3rd, 2019, 9:00 pm 

Serpent » May 4th, 2019, 1:27 am wrote:
we're not just faced with a practical problem but a problem of principle.

Which is?

We can't seem to decide whether it's divisions or fusions that improve equality of opportunity. We also can't seem to decide when a division is warranted, and why. You suggested (perhaps with tongue in cheek) to divide competitive classes by muscle-mass, and that's not altogether far away from what combat sports already do, but it's arbitrary to choose that trait at the exclusion of all others. In boxing, a person's ape-ratio matters, and so does their bone density - these might be excuses for separating boxers racially, if we can separate them sexually on account of testosterone levels. Measuring a boxer's muscle mass before a fight won't tell you everything about their muscle mass going into round 12, because people metabolise differently. Michael Phelps (glancing over to other sports) generates half the lactic acid his competitors do, but is praised rather than punished for his genetic gift. There are questions of adrenaline, growth hormone, cortisol, fast-twitch versus slow-twitch muscle, and so on. If we isolate every relevant trait we might find that nobody can compete against anybody else, any more. If we isolate none of them, we might find Anthony Joshua knocking out sickly children and gentle women. The problem of principle is to determine when a division really creates a division.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby TheVat on May 3rd, 2019, 9:06 pm 

We're going to ride off the rails if we get onto the topic of martial sports and their physical risks and potential barbarities and so on. I like the way Lomax's brain works so of course I hope he protects his head. Was it the ring or the street brawl - a binary choice? Only he knows. If so, a sound choice.

Generally, I think Edy finds the core issue: is it fair for someone who had a testosterone/genes boost while growing and training to compete against cis-women? It certainly doesn't sound at all fair. We all agree some genetic advantage can be overlooked - Olympic swimmer Michael Phelps huge feet, for example. We're not starting a separate big foot division. The more modestly footed just have to work harder, and there are several body traits that will tend to gravitate to certain sports at the pro level.

But a childhood and youth with XY chromosomes will give a pretty strong edge in certain sports - where narrower pelvis, heavier muscles, deeper chest cavity, etc. matter. In shorter races and sprints, the pelvic structure and ratio of leg to torso length would offer a decided advantage. Maybe useful to go case-by-case with each type of sport. As others have mentioned here.

Semenya is an interesting test case - not a trans woman, but having intersex traits that make her morphology similar to one. Something like one in 20,000 women have high testosterone like Semenya.

Afterthought, slightly off topic:

Know in what competition I think gender divisions is just ridiculous?

Chess. What on earth does gender have to do with chess playing ability? I am baffled that the game is still segregated.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 3rd, 2019, 9:55 pm 

Lomax » May 3rd, 2019, 8:00 pm wrote:We can't seem to decide whether it's divisions or fusions that improve equality of opportunity.

But you have to decide. And those of you who care about sports competition always do decide. You devise all manner of arbitrary rules, regulations and penalties for infraction; you draw up classes, grades and categories by some kind of grouping.
If you understand the principle under which you want a sport to operate, you'll figure out the details.
I don't care how you do it - I don't care whether you do it.
I'm just saying, you've dealt with all kinds of inequality, social changes, physical and medical developments, sports technology, training methods, equipment and playing fields, and expansion, professionalism and commercialism, attendance and attitude of fans, in all kinds of contest over the last 6000 years - one more wrinkle isn't going to bring organized sport to its knees.

This is a nitpickety sport issue, not a philosophical one.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby edy420 on May 4th, 2019, 12:38 am 

Serpent,

I think you neglect the monetary reward and fame associated with being a professional sports athlete. Large families in NZ quite regularly play sports regardless of gender as a fun time activity. We enjoy playing sports and it's good for our physical wellbeing and social development etc. I dont disagree, if you think we should just all get along and play sports for fun.

But people want to know, who is the best, and are willing to pay big bucks to find out. Superbowl for example. If they had to do it for free, those elite level athletes would most likely put their talents to use elsewhere. At the elite level, it is immoral to mix woman with men. It's not for fun. If the top team in the superbowl were to play against the top female team for the championship, thered be a lot of serious injuries. Or even if woman were forced to play in mixed teams, it still means more injuries for woman.

Any physical sport that involves head to head competition needs segregation for the safety of players. The power a soccer ball generates when kicked by an elite Male poses great potential to harm. Or the incredible speed a cricket ball poses when bowled or hit with a bat. Woman should not be forced to deal with the power of men, and why should they when it's perfectly fine for them to enjoy a sport with the same sex power potentials. Hockey, judo, etc can all be played for fun. But when reputation and salary are at stake, all advantages will be played, even at the expense of injuring the less than capable.

If all professional sport did remove gender segregation, thered be far less female fighters, soccer and hockey players. Many womans income relies on sports, but if we adopt your ideology, then too bad for these woman?

I'm trying to consider equality from the perspective of gender neutrality. No woman champions. Fewer woman role models. Less income for woman. More injuries for woman...

this version of equality does not look pretty. It must be a bloke.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 4th, 2019, 1:16 am 

edy420 » May 3rd, 2019, 11:38 pm wrote:Serpent,

I think you neglect the monetary reward and fame associated with being a professional sports athlete.

No, I don't. It's psychologically and socially destructive, but I'm perfectly well aware that it exists. And that's one of the two main reasons why everybody's always looking for some advantage, however unsportsmanlike, underhanded or unfair.
If this is a philosophical issue, then let's deal with the whole shebang, not just the latest problem it's had to face. You're making a big issue out of how many people affected? 0.6% of the population identify as transgender. When you pare down how many of those people are physically male and identify as female, and play a competitive sport where physique gives an unfair advantage, at a level where the advantage actually matters, you're talking about a very, very small number.
So, quit whingeing and figure out where those people belong.

If all professional sport did remove gender segregation,

Where was that an option?

But, okay, consider it an option. Re-imagine all the teams - soccer, lacrosse, water-polo, hockey, volleyball - as co-ed. Five guys and six girls on this team; six guys and five girls on that one; at half-time, we switch to the other goalie. Equality restored. Individual sports, do by age and weight. If somebody feels outclassed in their class, they're welcome to sit out the match - that's so few, you won't even notice.

I'm trying to consider equality from the perspective of gender neutrality.

Why?
No woman champions. Fewer woman role models. Less income for woman.

Well, the physicists, astronauts, newscasters, topless waitresses and chess-players are still okay.

I think you're working awfully hard to build a molehill.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby edy420 on May 4th, 2019, 2:24 am 

f this is a philosophical issue, then let's deal with the whole shebang, not just the latest problem it's had to face. You're making a big issue out of how many people affected? 0.6%


Your doing the wrong math. When a transgender woman breaks all the womans world records in one day (like Gregory I linked in another post) 100% of woman competitors are effected.

But, okay, consider it an option. Re-imagine all the teams - soccer, lacrosse, water-polo, hockey, volleyball - as co-ed. Five guys and six girls on this team; six guys and five girls on that one; at half-time, we switch to the other goalie. Equality restored. Individual sports, do by age and weight. If somebody feels outclassed in their class, they're welcome to sit out the match


That's still sexist discrimination. You shouldn't have to have a minimum number of male and female. Besides woman are still facing an unnecessary increased risk of injury. They shouldn't have to.

Why? (Consider equality from a gender neutral perspective)


I want to know if removing devisions based on sex is an appropriate way to compensate transgender equality. I figure, it's not. Though many equal rights activists like to pretend genders are equal in all respects of life.

Well, the physicists, astronauts, newscasters, topless waitresses and chess-players are still okay.

I think you're working awfully hard to build a molehill


Looking into the chess devisions.. there are no men only tournaments. Woman decided to start woman only tournaments to try and get more woman interested in playing. I have no problem with the fact that I cant enter a womans only tournament, but apparently they do have a problem if i enter. Perhaps I'll be a woman for a day, the next tournament. I was the best at my high school library. Considering the womans average skill level is lower than the men's, my chances are good. Who cares if i crush some womans dreams, right? They should just accept me for who I am, a legitimate transwoman on tournament days.

If it pays well, then why not.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Lomax on May 4th, 2019, 5:45 am 

Serpent » May 4th, 2019, 2:55 am wrote:This is a nitpickety sport issue, not a philosophical one.

I don't think so. It's a question of equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome - just applied to a sport issue.

TheVat » May 4th, 2019, 2:06 am wrote:Know in what competition I think gender divisions is just ridiculous?

Chess. What on earth does gender have to do with chess playing ability? I am baffled that the game is still segregated.

Ah, but now you ask. The amount of testosterone the feotus receives makes a significant difference to its subsequent spatio-temporal abilities. Doesn't that weigh in?
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby TheVat on May 4th, 2019, 9:43 am 

It's worth asking, and maybe the topic is worth expanding. I remain skeptical of the link between sex genes and something as cognitively complex as shifting objects in space. I think it's very hard to remove all the prior cultural influences, e.g. toys played with, teacher expectations, and so on. And chess played well seems more dependent on tactical skills and discernment of tactical styles in others, which I see as more learned than gene-mediated. Women actually have, on average, a thicker corpus callosum, which could help with quick nonlinear insights and holistic thinking. In a world where women with positional board game talent got the same encouragement and preening at an early age, they might catch up rapidly in open gender chess. It might turn out that spatio-temporal ability, if men really do have some edge there, is the least important thing in winning at chess.

More broadly, it may be useful to ask if, for any physical or cognitive trait, if the variation between the most extreme members of one gender is greater than the average difference between genders.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 4th, 2019, 10:18 am 

edy420 » May 4th, 2019, 1:24 am wrote:
f this is a philosophical issue, then let's deal with the whole shebang, not just the latest problem it's had to face. You're making a big issue out of how many people affected? 0.6%


Your doing the wrong math. When a transgender woman breaks all the womans world records in one day (like Gregory I linked in another post) 100% of woman competitors are effected.

Now you've brought the problem down to even smaller numbers - 1 in many thousands. A single case can surely be handled on its own merits - it's done every single day.
If a case tests the existing rules, those rules may have to be changed.

[mixed teams.] That's still sexist discrimination.

So is male and female segregation. There has to be some discrimination, unless you blend all sport activities and open them to every age, weight, level of accomplishment, professional/amateur status.
That was just one example. If you don't like it, suggest something better.

I want to know if removing devisions based on sex is an appropriate way to compensate transgender equality. I figure, it's not.

I think we've established that. Make a better suggestion.

Though many equal rights activists like to pretend genders are equal in all respects of life.

Is this the real kernel of your philosophical bolus?
Are you using intensely competitive sport as a vehicle to challenge gender equality?
Okay, that's a valid concern, but in that case, you should be addressing the arguments of those [which?] equal rights activists with whom you disagree, on the actual issues that they have advocated.

[physicists, astronauts, newscasters, topless waitresses and chess-players are still okay]

Considering the womans average skill level is lower than the men's, my chances are good.
Who cares if i crush some womans dreams, right?

Your particular chances are exactly as good as your game compared to your opponent's. Testosterone won't move your queen out of harm's way. Nobody plays "the average" of their entire gender, age or class; each one has to bring his or her own skill level. If you are good enough to crush anyone's dreams, their dreams were unrealistic.

Disappointment is the inevitable fate of 99.9% of all competitors in all competitions.
You need have no fear that your little trophy will destroy the female role-model industry.


They should just accept me for who I am, a legitimate transwoman on tournament days. If it pays well, then why not.

Well there, we have a point of identification.
For that matter, the way you and some others present the "problem" sounds to me improbable.
A male athlete wakes up one morning, says to himself: "I need an edge. I know, I'll compete against the women." Goes to the commission for his sport and says, "Today, I feel pretty." gets assigned to the women's division, wins all the races, then puts on his pants and goes home to his wife. I don't think it works that way.
Here's a thought: make a rule that someone who competes as a man or woman in the segregated sports has to have committed to, and lived, as the sex they claim, for X or Y number of years.

Of course, genetic testing will become more and more and more pervasively the norm, as the science advances. Pretty soon, they'll be splicing orangutan DNA into boxers for a longer reach, shark DNA into swimmers, etc. The troubles of organized sport are just beginning.
Last edited by Serpent on May 4th, 2019, 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 4th, 2019, 10:29 am 

Lomax » May 4th, 2019, 4:45 am wrote:
Serpent » May 4th, 2019, 2:55 am wrote:This is a nitpickety sport issue, not a philosophical one.

I don't think so. It's a question of equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome - just applied to a sport issue.

Fair enough. But, in that case, why restrict your area of investigation to this minuscule segment of inequalities? Why not ask the much bigger questions of opportunity, equality and inclusion? Like government funding and business sponsorship, school facilities and athletic programs, child nutrition and health care?

The amount of testosterone the feotus receives makes a significant difference to its subsequent spatio-temporal abilities. Doesn't that weigh in?

Nope. The number of children interested in chess to begin with, if it's affected by their foetal testosterone, has already determined the number of competitive players by age 7. All it means is more boys than girls are playing competitively. This will probably be true of all competitions over age 14: another side-effect of testosterone. That's not a fairness issue; it's a statistic.

PS - How come, those who are so concerned about the crushed dreams of female athletes, are utterly unconcerned with the other 0.3% of transgendered people? The biological females who identify as male. If they compete in men's events, they start, continue and finish at a disadvantage in all sports. Is that fair?
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 4th, 2019, 11:24 am 

TheVat » May 4th, 2019, 8:43 am wrote:It's worth asking, and maybe the topic is worth expanding. I remain skeptical of the link between sex genes and something as cognitively complex as shifting objects in space. I think it's very hard to remove all the prior cultural influences, e.g. toys played with, teacher expectations, and so on. And chess played well seems more dependent on tactical skills and discernment of tactical styles in others, which I see as more learned than gene-mediated. Women actually have, on average, a thicker corpus callosum, which could help with quick nonlinear insights and holistic thinking. In a world where women with positional board game talent got the same encouragement and preening at an early age, they might catch up rapidly in open gender chess. It might turn out that spatio-temporal ability, if men really do have some edge there, is the least important thing in winning at chess.

A factor that may worth considering in this context is interest levels at various ages.
When I was in senior elementary school, our science teacher was a keen social chess-player and started a chess club for students. Lunch-time and after school, anybody from grades 5-8 could come in and learn, and play against whoever was available. Unstructured, egalitarian and friendly.
At first, there was a lot of interest, but by the end of fall term, it was down to a dozen or so regulars: 9 boys and and three or four girls. Truth is, the girls mostly got bored and went to choir or art club instead.

The chess mind is pretty much recognizable by age 4 - seems (on unscientific observation) to be associated with the facility for math and violin. By 9 or 10, children have developed a wider variety of interests, and should be exhibiting different kinds of aptitude.
Somewhere between 7 and 12, girls tend to become concerned with interpersonal relations, group activities, aesthetics and physical pursuits - they just don't have the patience to shove little figures around a board. They're done playing with dolls and are ready to start bossing live people.

Regardless of opportunity, most kids will never love chess, or be any good at it. Just as most people will never be athletes. The numbers will be determined by proclivity more than by rules.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby edy420 on May 4th, 2019, 1:20 pm 

I would like to think chess is a good place to test Male vs female differences, but there is just too many variables. Perhaps if everyone in the world was forced to learn and play chess, we would see closer to a 50/50 ratio, in terms of Male to female skill level. To date all chess grandmasters are male. There's only been one female in the top ten.

Chess is like combat sports, it's a simulation of war. Perhaps testosterone comes into play because woman dont have as high a level of enjoyment when slaughtering a king.

A single case can surely be handled on its own merits - it's done every single day.
If a case tests the existing rules, those rules may have to be changed


This is what I expect. Unfortunately, its not what happens.

Are you using intensely competitive sport as a vehicle to challenge gender equality?


The reason we cant change the rules in each and every single case, is because trans activists are using gender equality to challenge the competitive sport industry. Concerned female athletes who speak out are kicked from boards and respectable positions, because they aren't PC. Gold medalists are told they're just bigots. Organisation's are forced to accept transwoman also. It's not as simple as applying common sense to each case.

If you are good enough to crush anyone's dreams, their dreams were unrealistic.


Many woman dream of being the best woman alive. It never used to be unrealistic.

Here's a thought: make a rule that someone who competes as a man or woman in the segregated sports has to have committed to, and lived, as the sex they claim, for X or Y number of years.


The transition would have to be done as a child, to negate the advantages of going through puberty with higher testosterone levels than woman. I'm not sure if it would be enough to develope a female skeletal and muscular system. The science on gender transition is still new. It's mostly just cosmetic.

Transgender people are not defined by their appendages. Also, they can change gender on a daily basis. This is not my definition. I would prefer they make the change permanent, because my brain is easily confused. But they shouldn't have to, just for my sake. They have determined the definition of transgender, and they expect the rest of the world to adopt it as truth. A male can be a female if he wants to. Accept it.

Of course, genetic testing will become more and more and more pervasively the norm, as the science advances. Pretty soon, they'll be splicing orangutan DNA into boxers for a longer reach, shark DNA into swimmers, etc. The troubles of organized sport are just beginning.


I'm not so confident science will get to that point. We could splice the DNA perhaps, but not specific traits. We cant even get people to Mars, we've barely explored 50% of our planet (most the oceon), still no cure for cancer and we cant replicate abiogenesis. When we can do the simple stuff, I'll have a little more confidence.

If the day does come when we can mutate genetics, then we open a mutant devision. The same could be said for cybernetic enhancements. Prosthetic technology is already well advanced. Surely its unfair for little Suzy to have to fight CyborgatronisPrime who identifies as a woman? Open a cyborg devision..

PS - How come, those who are so concerned about the crushed dreams of female athletes, are utterly unconcerned with the other 0.3% of transgendered people? The biological females who identify as male. If they compete in men's events, they start, continue and finish at a disadvantage in all sports. Is that fair?


My daughter is the star player in her soccer team. She smashes through the boys with ease. When they see her coming, they get this feeling of impending doom as the inevitable approaches. I love it. I support her. But as she gets older, those boys will develop advantages. If she wants to become a professional, I'd prefer she joins a womans team, for her safety.

Some trans men do compete at the higher level, and I support them too. As long as they dont get seriously injured. I'd like to see one become champion. Me personally, I'd support a trans male champion.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 4th, 2019, 2:29 pm 

edy420 » May 4th, 2019, 12:20 pm wrote:I would like to think chess is a good place to test Male vs female differences

If you had some reason to test those. (I notice your consistently eccentric capitalization, btw) Maybe. But what for? Just open it to everybody and accept whoever wants to play.

Chess is like combat sports,

In no way whatsoever.

[If a case tests the existing rules, those rules may have to be changed (italics added)]

This is what I expect. Unfortunately, its not what happens.

Didn't it? Why not?

[Are you using intensely competitive sport as a vehicle to challenge gender equality?]

The reason we cant change the rules in each and every single case,

I didn't say change the rules for each case. I said each case is a test of the rule. If the rule proves inapplicable in too many test cases, then the rule must be changed. That's how the rules of anything get changed.

Here's another suggestion:
Since the number of anomalies is so vanishingly small, why not do in sport scoring what they do in scientific testing: disregard the outliers at both ends. Don't count the top and bottom 0.01%.

is because trans activists are using gender equality to challenge the competitive sport industry.

Okay. This is a new issue. Who is doing that? How are they doing it? Why are they doing it? What aspects of that enormously lucrative, exploitative, corrupt and culturally destructive "industry" are they challenging?

Concerned female athletes who speak out are kicked from boards and respectable positions, because they aren't PC. Gold medalists are told they're just bigots. Organisation's are forced to accept transwoman also. It's not as simple as applying common sense to each case.

Then you'll have to reorganize the sports hierarchy. You haven't convinced me that all of that ^^^ was caused by one woman with an atypical endocrine system.

[If you are good enough to crush anyone's dreams, their dreams were unrealistic. ]

Many woman dream of being the best woman alive. It never used to be unrealistic.

For 99.99% of them, it always has been and always will be. You don't play your way up through the ranks to #1 by stepping into a tournament with an extra squirt of hormone.

The transition would have to be done as a child, to negate the advantages ...

I see you sidestepped the issue of your habitual misinterpretation of how standard males could use this to enter women's competitions at unfair advantage.
Fine. The science is evolving; the definitions will have to be worked out. Everything's in transition.
One way with to deal with a transition is to shut down the inconvenient minority. (Shut up, get back into your assigned role in the nuclear family; listen to Father.)
Another way is to deal - thoughtfully, intelligently, practically - with challenges as they arise.

A male can be a female if he wants to. Accept it.

I do. And a female can become male if she wants to. The truth is, very, very few want to, even fewer undertake the daunting task or going through with it or the social difficulties it poses. I certainly don't want to put any more obstacles in their way than they already face.
Why do you?
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby edy420 on May 4th, 2019, 3:06 pm 

Serpent,

I could tell the minority to shut up and get in place, or I could discuss the complex issue philosophically and get a better understanding. Have a guess at which route I'm taking.

Male vs female vs Male. I'm using the web browser "Brave". For some reason it always spell checks Male with a capital M. I correct it when I see it, but my apologies for the ones I missed.

The difference between sport and science, is as sports fans, we only care about the top 0.00001 percent. Or me personally I only care about the top 10 in the UFC. I payed $40 to see Khabib maul Conor Mcreggor like a grizzly bear. I payed $35 to see Mayweather vs Mcreggor. I'm not going to pay one cent if I only get to see the lowest 1000 fighters. Your argument, that we should care about the overall body of contenders, is nonsensical.

Sports does provide statistics which can be evaluated scientifically. Scientifically speaking men at the elite level are faster, stronger, and according to chess statistics, better at devising strategy. For this scientific reason, we need segregation in physical sports.

With chess, all tournament are male (edit* little m) and female, accept a few which are female only. There are no male only tournaments. Do you think there should be no female only tournaments, if so then why?

each case is a test of the rule. If the rule proves inapplicable in too many test cases, then the rule must be changed


I disagree. One case is enough. Now a transgender boy is a female wrestling champion. Under the current rules, he can compete with girls because he is a biological female. He can also continue to use steroids, because they are medically prescribed. No rules are broken, but the unfair advantage of training with performance enhancing drugs, means that while no one is cheating, all the biological cis gender females are being cheated out of victory.

Why do you insist that we need to see it become a widespread problem before we acknowledge it. One case is enough. This is the beginning, it's better we understand it early.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 4th, 2019, 3:55 pm 

edy420 » May 4th, 2019, 2:06 pm wrote:I could tell the minority to shut up and get in place, or I could discuss the complex issue philosophically and get a better understanding. Have a guess at which route I'm taking.

I was referring to NickA's solution.
Yours is more open, and yet still very personal. Look wider, farther. There may not be a definitive answer; there is never going to be a final answer, but you can find one that works for you, for now.

The difference between sport and science, is as sports fans, we only care about the top 0.00001 percent.

Now, there is a cultural attitude could use some scrutiny. Do you care about the sport, or just the championship and records? Because, if only the latter are supported by the fans, you can see how that can motivate athletes, coaches, sponsors and owners to sacrifice the game for the win; might inspire more kinds of cheating, fixing, shortcuts and player abuse.

Sports does provide statistics which can be evaluated scientifically. Scientifically speaking men at the elite level are faster, stronger, and according to chess statistics, better at devising strategy. For this scientific reason, we need segregation in physical sports.

If you need it, you need it.
You can't cut off the inconvenient stats; cut off the people who mess up your stats.
And stop talking about fairness or feelings.

Do you think there should be no female only[chess] tournaments, if so then why?

It might be a good idea to segregate them between ages 12 and 18. Because they would be distracted by matters unrelated to the game. OTOH - so what? No, leave them all be. If there are fewer girls, and if the spread is thicker in Classes B-E, so what? Promoters may care; I don't. As long as children get a chance to learn, try it out, get advanced coaching if they have the desire, and are not pressured into competing, I don't care. (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108065/ very good movie)

[If the rule proves inapplicable in too many test cases, then the rule must be changed]
I disagree. One case is enough.

From one case you have come up with a change to the rule that would apply to all cases? Then what's the problem?

Now a transgender boy is a female wrestling champion. Under the current rules, he can compete with girls because he is a biological female. He can also continue to use steroids, because they are medically prescribed.

I believe the hormone in question is estrogen. It won't give her an advantage over the women who produce their own. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5182227/

Why do you insist that we need to see it become a widespread problem before we acknowledge it. One case is enough. This is the beginning, it's better we understand it early.

Because, as I said before, it can't become wide-spread. Very few athletes willing to undergo a sex-change just for a medal and loss of hearing by age 40. It can spike, but not spread.
Because you don't understand it. Diagnose too early, from too small a sample, and you'll get it wrong. I find it's better to wait until for a reasonable amount of data before committing to a course of action, especially one that involves a lot of people.
Because it's a lot harder to reverse when you discover that you're going the wrong way.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Lomax on May 4th, 2019, 7:21 pm 

Serpent » May 4th, 2019, 3:29 pm wrote:
Lomax » May 4th, 2019, 4:45 am wrote:
Serpent » May 4th, 2019, 2:55 am wrote:This is a nitpickety sport issue, not a philosophical one.

I don't think so. It's a question of equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome - just applied to a sport issue.

Fair enough. But, in that case, why restrict your area of investigation to this minuscule segment of inequalities? Why not ask the much bigger questions of opportunity, equality and inclusion? Like government funding and business sponsorship, school facilities and athletic programs, child nutrition and health care?

I can't speak for Edy, who set up the thread, but I'm giving examples from boxing because I know something about it. If the thread were about health care I would read and not write.

Serpent » May 4th, 2019, 3:29 pm wrote:Nope. The number of children interested in chess to begin with, if it's affected by their foetal testosterone, has already determined the number of competitive players by age 7. All it means is more boys than girls are playing competitively. This will probably be true of all competitions over age 14: another side-effect of testosterone. That's not a fairness issue; it's a statistic.

I'm not of the opinion that chess needs to be sex-segregated, but the point is that chromosomes may affect a person's chess ability just as they do a person's pugilism ability. Perhaps the reason we all feel boxing ought to be segregated is that it is worse to get beaten unconscious than it is to lose a chess game.

Serpent » May 4th, 2019, 3:29 pm wrote:PS - How come, those who are so concerned about the crushed dreams of female athletes, are utterly unconcerned with the other 0.3% of transgendered people?

They're not. The IAAF's decision to exclude Semenya (who has a DSD, meaning that she has some male genetic traits, as well as above-female testosterone levels) has been highly controversial.

Serpent » May 4th, 2019, 3:29 pm wrote:If they compete in men's events, they start, continue and finish at a disadvantage in all sports. Is that fair?

What's happening in combat sports is that they are competing in women's events, and they are receiving testosterone-boosting medication while their opponents would be banned for doing so.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby edy420 on May 4th, 2019, 8:10 pm 

Serpent,

Do you care about the sport, or just the championship and records? Because, if only the latter are supported by the fans, you can see how that can motivate athletes, coaches, sponsors and owners to sacrifice the game for the win; might inspire more kinds of cheating, fixing, shortcuts and player abuse


If you cant tell, I love martial arts. I encourage others to learn as it improves self esteem, confidence and stimulates the mind and body connection. I've trained Muay Thai, boxing, jiu-jitsu and zendo-kai martial arts. I go to local tournaments and support fighters from my gym. I care about both the sport and the pro elite level.

To be at peak performance, we need optimum sleep, training regiment, nutrition and rest. These areas are the only time we use science to maximize potential, and rightly so. It's a full time dedication. This is why its important to fund elite level athletes, so that they can show us what the human maximum potential is capable of.

I appreciate your looking at this problem, from an overall scientific perspective. Science has its uses, but has its limitations in areas like religion, the music industry, art, poetry, politics(sadly) and sports.

I believe the hormone in question is estrogen


The case I'm referring to, is medically approved testosterone, for biological female to male trans therapy. One of the side effects, is that it's also a performance enhancing drug in sport. But sports generally accept steroids when provided for medical reasons..

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... uestions-/

The same performance-enhancing activity that got Russian athletes banned from the Olympic Winter Games may have helped a transgender male athlete win the girls’ Texas high school wrestling championship.

Mack Beggs, who was born a girl but identifies as male, is just the latest transgender athlete whose achievements have raised questions about how to let everyone compete without creating an uneven playing field.

The Texas agency that governs high school athletics requires athletes to compete as the sex listed on their birth certificates.

Attorney Jim Baudhuin, a father of a wrestler who unsuccessfully filed a lawsuit to prevent Mack from competing while undergoing testosterone therapy treatments last year, said it’s not fair to allow some athletes to use performance-enhancing drugs


Obviously the rules need review. Even though the number of trans athletes is minute.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 4th, 2019, 9:58 pm 

Lomax » May 4th, 2019, 6:21 pm wrote:I can't speak for Edy, who set up the thread, but I'm giving examples from boxing because I know something about it. If the thread were about health care I would read and not write.

Neither is it about foetal development, which comes under prenatal health care, but you brought that up. If it were about fairness in competitive sports, you would be willing to consider factors that affect fairness in in a whole lot more of competitive sport than the inclusion of a few genetic anomalies.
But it's not about fairness in competitive sport; it's about the genetic anomalies.
So let's drop the pretense.

I'm not of the opinion that chess needs to be sex-segregated, but the point is that chromosomes may affect a person's chess ability just as they do a person's pugilism ability.

Might affect, yes. Just as, no.
Besides, nobody's been monitoring athletes since foetushood, so we don't actually know what-all prenatal conditions had what effect on which of their proclivities predispositions. And nobody on the Olympic committee is demanding the contestants' amniotic fluid for testing. yet.
Perhaps the reason we all feel boxing ought to be segregated is that it is worse to get beaten unconscious than it is to lose a chess game.

Perhaps...

[... .unconcerned with the other 0.3% of transgendered people?]
They're not. The IAAF's decision to exclude Semenya (who has a DSD, meaning that she has some male genetic traits, as well as above-female testosterone levels) has been highly controversial.

How's that concern for the males who transition to female?

What's happening in combat sports is that they are competing in women's events, and they are receiving testosterone-boosting medication while their opponents would be banned for doing so.

Are you telling me that women who are in the process of becoming men (receiving testosterone) are competing in women's sports, while men who are in the process of becoming of women (receiving estrogen) are also competing on women's sports?
That's odd. How many?
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 4th, 2019, 11:18 pm 

edy420 » May 4th, 2019, 7:10 pm wrote:This is why its important to fund elite level athletes, so that they can show us what the human maximum potential is capable of.

If you also got funding and support for the entry levels, you'd have a bigger pool from which to choose your elite.

The case I'm referring to, is medically approved testosterone, for biological female to male trans therapy.

Then why is he still competing in the female division?
Even from a purely medical perspective, nobody should compete while in transition. (Or while undergoing chemotherapy or plastic surgery or any kind of protracted medical procedure that will leave them different. Let's see how they turn out before signing up for the tournament.
If that had been your beef in the first place, I'd have agreed.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby edy420 on May 4th, 2019, 11:31 pm 

It's just the other side of the coin. I'm pretty sure he'd take the testosterone for the rest of his life. No one knows what to do.

Originally I thought a trans division, or simply just an open gender devision might be the answer. But I'm not sure if I want to see a biological girl on testosterone vs a biological boy on estrogen. I'd have to see a few fights before making up my mind.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 5th, 2019, 1:36 am 

edy420 » May 4th, 2019, 10:31 pm wrote:It's just the other side of the coin.

No! It's the SAME bloody side of the coin is the problem!


I'm pretty sure he'd take the testosterone for the rest of his life.

Obviously. In order to be a man. To look, dress, talk and live like a man.
So why the hell would he be wanting to, or allowed to, compete in women's sports?
No one knows what to do.

Then everyone involved is daft.

Originally I thought a trans division, or simply just an open gender devision might be the answer.

What, just the four of them? Won't get much of an fan-base.
But I'm not sure if I want to see a biological girl on testosterone vs a biological boy on estrogen. I'd have to see a few fights before making up my mind.

Make them wrestle in lime jello.
With a couple of seals.
No, I'm still not coming to watch.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby BadgerJelly on May 5th, 2019, 3:16 am 

Didn’t someone post here about some organisation having an equity based policy introduced in which a man and a woman had to hold the to; teo positions? Then some gy came along identifying as a woman so that two men were in the top positions!

He did it not just for comic effect. The point there was the stupidity of forcing election based on genitals ... but that said I can kind of see why this is important and I have suggested that maybe a combined male and female combo would serve any leadership situation better than having a singular sex represent more universal interests - this is already partially apparent in the role wives and husbands play to national leaders (esp. as emphasised in the US)
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Lomax on May 5th, 2019, 7:05 am 

Serpent » May 5th, 2019, 2:58 am wrote:
Lomax » May 4th, 2019, 6:21 pm wrote:I can't speak for Edy, who set up the thread, but I'm giving examples from boxing because I know something about it. If the thread were about health care I would read and not write.

Neither is it about foetal development, which comes under prenatal health care, but you brought that up. If it were about fairness in competitive sports, you would be willing to consider factors that affect fairness in in a whole lot more of competitive sport than the inclusion of a few genetic anomalies.

It does you no favours to impute motives to those you disagree with. Don't come here to tell me why I write my posts. I gave BiV (or just V now?) an example of a gendered/sexed advantage. I don't claim there are no others.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby TheVat on May 5th, 2019, 1:06 pm 

Without stopping to dwell on every possible way someone can game the system, would it be possible to acknowledge that any artifical hormonal transformation of a human can transform their physical capability to such a great degree that they come to reside in a different level of performance. Perhaps it's not always needing a separate league, but just an asterisk like the one Roger Maris got when he broke Babe Ruth's record. (the asterisk preserved Ruth's accomplishment by noting that Maris had a longer season to hit his 61 home runs) Or a league ruling. Again, different cases require different rulings, sports law in that way a microcosm of the law. If someone is a biological male, and thus has the bulk and joint leverage and so on of a male, then they can transform to female but still should play in a men's division. If they're competing at a high level, they will continue to train hard and maintain muscle tone and bone mass at a level suitable for competition. If they, OTOH, start dieting and slimming and having surgeries with the objective of looking like Keira Knightley, or Lily Collins, their performance would automatically exclude them from competition and a dangerous mismatch with cis-male players in brute force sports. Tennis or golf might be a different matter. I'm thinking, to some extent, each person would gravitate to their level.

In medical terms, the greatest risk might be for trans men who strive to compete with cis-males by matching upper body strength and speed and are supporting that with smaller lungs and CV system. In a way, this might select for trans men who started out as robust women born with intersex traits.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 5th, 2019, 3:11 pm 

The problem with the wrestler is not a wrestling problem, or a sports law problem or a transgender problem. It's southern US problem. They're daft. What have birth certificates to say about wrestling ability? Or presidential ability? Or urination ability?

Thing is, in the normal course of events, a boy transitioning to a girl would bring the male bones to female competitions, but lose the testosterone; a girl transitioning to a boy would get the testosterone but bring girl-bones to male competition. In chess, she would bring the spatial and pattern-recognition advantage, but lack the prioritizing and multi-tasking skill - and vice versa. Overall - statistically - the advantages of transgendered people would balance their disadvantages.

All that's missing is sensible direction from the sport organizations.
Last edited by Serpent on May 5th, 2019, 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 5th, 2019, 3:14 pm 

Lomax » May 5th, 2019, 6:05 am wrote:
Serpent » May 5th, 2019, 2:58 am wrote:
Lomax » May 4th, 2019, 6:21 pm wrote:I can't speak for Edy, who set up the thread, but I'm giving examples from boxing because I know something about it. If the thread were about health care I would read and not write.

Neither is it about foetal development, which comes under prenatal health care, but you brought that up. If it were about fairness in competitive sports, you would be willing to consider factors that affect fairness in in a whole lot more of competitive sport than the inclusion of a few genetic anomalies.

It does you no favours to impute motives to those you disagree with. Don't come here to tell me why I write my posts. I gave BiV (or just V now?) an example of a gendered/sexed advantage. I don't claim there are no others.

That transgression was unpremeditated and inadvertent. It won't happen again.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Lomax on May 5th, 2019, 4:56 pm 

I suppose it caught me by surprise because this doesn't strike me as a matter of whether people should be allowed to transition and compete. That seems like rather an easy question. It's a question of reconciling transgender/DSD rights with women's rights - what might qualify as a "Hegelian tragedy". BiV suggests there comes a point where a MtF person can fight against cis women, which is what Fallon Fox and Nong Toom did, but of course there are still questions of unfair advantages. Perhaps there always are in sport (and not just in sport), and we might simply accept this, so long as we know the corollary is that women and men are integrated. Or it may just be a question of when a person can "reasonably" be expected to overcome their disadvantages - X chromosomes didn't stop Germaine de Randamie knocking out Tom Waes, and inferior reach didn't stop Rocky Marciano knocking out, well, everyone. I have no idea how we solve that demarcation problem, but I do suspect that creating an MtF league, an FtM league, and a league for every known DSD will have the effect of wiping those fighters off the map altogether - nobody cares if you top a league with six people in it. These problems will become more prevalent and more sophisticated as transitioning gains social acceptance, and the sanctioning bodies are unprepared for what's coming. They've never really had to justify their decisions to segregate by one trait but not another*, and whichever position they take now, they'll face backlash. UFC is criticised for allowing Fox to fight cis women, and IAAF is criticised for not allowing Semenya to compete against cis women. If I were them, I'd at least want to figure out what are my principles and methodology, before the press release.

___________

* Boxing was segregated by perceived race until Tommy Burns fought Jack Johnson. Neither Sam Langford (black) nor Joe Choynski (Jewish) were allowed to challenge for the title. The turnaround was led not by the sanctioning authorities but by the reigning champion himself. Burns said "I propose to be the champion of the world, not the white, or the Canadian, or the American. If I am not the best man in the heavyweight division, I don't want the title". Admirable - but the word "man" does more work in that sentence than could have been known at the time.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Nick_A on May 5th, 2019, 6:57 pm 

Not very PC but Martina Navratilova is just being sensible which is intolerable for the PC crowd

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... n-comments

Writing in the Sunday Times, Navratilova said she had subsequently promised to keep quiet on the subject until she had done some research on it. “Well, I’ve now done that and, if anything, my views have strengthened,” she wrote.

“To put the argument at its most basic: a man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting organisation is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires.

“It’s insane and it’s cheating. I am happy to address a transgender woman in whatever form she prefers, but I would not be happy to compete against her. It would not be fair.”

Her comments attracted criticism across social media. “We’re pretty devastated to discover that Martina Navratilova is transphobic,” tweeted the rights group Trans Actual. “If trans women had an advantage in sport, why aren’t trans women winning gold medals left, right and centre?”


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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Lomax on May 5th, 2019, 8:18 pm 

Stephie Haynes of MMA magazine Bloody Elbow appears to have interviewed a large number of medical experts on the subject of Fallon Fox. What's interesting is the variety of opinion:

Dr Marci Bowers, sex reassignment surgeon:

Most measures of physical strength minimize, muscle mass decreases, bone density decreases, and they become fairly comparable to women in their musculature. After as much time as has passed in her case, if tested, she would probably end up in the same muscle mass category as her biologically born female counterpart.

Dr Johnny Benjamin, orthopedic surgeon:

One of the things that's very interesting, is everyone says, 'Well there's been a few studies that say after two years this, that and the other...' That's not true. There's no studies for this. I've done the literature search. Then they come back with, 'The IOC knows.' The IOC knows what? The IOC caved to political and social pressure. The IOC didn't say, 'Because of firm scientific and medical evidence, that if you've had this SRS and you've taken hormones for two years, that's the magic number that all this is going to become safe.' That's not true at all.

[...]

The average height of men is greater than the average height of women. In addition to bone density, there is also the issue of longer bones in men. Longer bones lead to some mechanical advantages that shorter bones don't have.

[...]

The hormones will certainly make your phenotype. The different hormone therapies are very good at changing that, but they don't change those things that happen to you during puberty. The length of your bones don't change. The mean muscle surface area doesn't change a great deal.

Dr Ramona Krutzik, endocrinologist:

Here's the thing. Estrogen is what actually causes bone growth. It's not the testosterone. Men convert testosterone peripherally to estrogen. That's why we think that men who have low testosterone levels become osteoporotic. It's not because of the lack of testosterone, but because that lack of test can't be converted to estrogen. When men go on hormonal blockers for other health concerns, they can get osteoporosis, but they're not getting estrogen.

So here you have a man, who was on hormonal blockers to block testosterone, but is now taking estrogen, which is then going to prevent osteoporosis, so there wouldn't be a great percentage of bone density loss, per se. Males have higher bone density and higher mass skeletons than females. It takes a long time for that to diminish.

Typically, you're looking at about 15 years after androgen suppression and SRS to really start to see significant changes in bone density.


So conducting those studies which Dr Benjamin says don't exist might be a good place to start. It would help to know what difference all of this actually makes.
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