No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby edy420 on May 5th, 2019, 8:27 pm 

I agree. But what do we do in the meantime. Stick to birth certificate info?
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby PaulN on May 5th, 2019, 8:43 pm 

Anyone read the Kurt Vonnegut story, "Harrison Bergeron"?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

There you go. :-)
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 5th, 2019, 9:42 pm 

Very possibly the worst story he ever wrote.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Lomax on May 6th, 2019, 1:08 pm 

edy420 » May 6th, 2019, 1:27 am wrote:I agree. But what do we do in the meantime. Stick to birth certificate info?

The question of burden of proof - and "caretaker rules" - is interesting in its own right. Rosi Sexton argues:

I agree that equality of participation is a nice ideal, and it’s a reasonable argument if we’re talking about sports like tennis or kayaking. But in a sport where one participant is trying to do physical damage to another, the burden of proof should be reversed. We need good scientific evidence to support the assertion that Fox has no advantage as a result of having been born male.

One wonders why more science hasn't been conducted already. Apparently this exact controversy occurred in 1977 with regard to tennis player Renée Richards.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 6th, 2019, 3:02 pm 

edy420 » May 5th, 2019, 7:27 pm wrote: Stick to birth certificate info?

I thought that's what caused the problem with your wrestler.
If he was on testosterone therapy, that would have been his only advantage; presumably his bones and musculature were still predominantly female.
If he's completed the transition and identifies as male, he should be competing against boys. He would likely be at a disadvantage, among adolescent males, who all had typical male body types and were at the height of their natural testosterone production.*
The only reason he was competing against girls was the birth certificate: staff in a delivery room looked at those tiny genitals and ticked the F box. Seems to me a whole life is too big a freight for one little piece of paper.

*And thereby, you can strike off any threat from steroids if you go by self-identification. The only advantage is masculine body-type. Now, here's another thing: If the people who filled out the birth certificate were wrong - or, as happens in ambiguous situations, swayed by the parent's wishes - you can have masculine-type bodies officially identified as girls, who never come out (possibly because of social fear) and never got themselves labelled.
So you don't know how many genetic anomalies have taken how many trophies that nobody ever questioned. Only a few wins have been challenged on the basis of genetic mismatch.

Then, we some other misconceptions and pink fishes. The most serious is conflating all possible advantages that a transgendered athlete might have, and framing the question as if all of them actually had all of the these advantages.
Some other problems of projecting anxiety are merely opportunities for confusion.

e.g.
The average height of men is greater than the average height of women. In addition to bone density, there is also the issue of longer bones in men. Longer bones lead to some mechanical advantages that shorter bones don't have.

This is hardly relevant, since there is considerable variation in the bone length of women, and the tall ones are not disqualified on that basis. They're competing against other individuals in their class, not a statistical average of their sex.

eg.
“To put the argument at its most basic: a man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting organisation is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires.

Has this happened? Is it probable? Does she even know what's involved?
- First, the transitioning person would have to lay out US$ 7-50,000 just for the surgery, over 1-2 years, plus psychological counselling, plus drugs. Plus, of course, training and coaching and getting to the events. It's not a trivial investment.
- There is no guarantee of winning any of their events - let alone everything in sight - with just the body-type advantage; they would also have to excel in the sport and persevere.
(All the while being subject to the negative publicity and shunning and shaming.)
- If they did win, and wanted to transition back, it's not simply a matter of stopping the hormone therapy and resuming an ordinary man's life. They'd have to undo that changes, at similar cost. (Making babies with whom?) Meanwhile, they've sunk their university years, and tuition money, in the scam, with no fallback, and no dividends. They couldn't get sponsorship and advertising contracts, and who would hire them as a coach or sports announcer?
I think that risk is infinitesimal. Moreover, I think Navratilova could have known this.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Lomax on May 6th, 2019, 3:43 pm 

All valid points. Fallon Fox is 5'8" - not enormous for a female MMA fighter. Several of the articles I've read on this have noted - some tongue-in-cheek, some not so - that Fox doesn't pass the "eye test" - ie. she still looks structurally male. Well, Sergei Nikolai Valuev doesn't pass the eye test either - he is 7 feet tall and looks as much like a human as an orc. What the current practice - of excluding Semenya et al but not Valuev et al - boils down to is that many people instinctively want to grant women a type of protection which they don't grant men. For better or worse. On the other hand, Valuev never broke anybody's skull in the ring, to my knowledge.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 6th, 2019, 4:42 pm 

Lomax » May 6th, 2019, 2:43 pm wrote:All valid points. Fallon Fox is 5'8" - not enormous for a female MMA fighter. Several of the articles I've read on this have noted - some tongue-in-cheek, some not so - that Fox doesn't pass the "eye test" - ie. she still looks structurally male. Well, Sergei Nikolai Valuev doesn't pass the eye test either - he is 7 feet tall and looks as much like a human as an orc. What the current practice - of excluding Semenya et al but not Valuev et al - boils down to is that many people instinctively want to grant women a type of protection which they don't grant men. For better or worse. On the other hand, Valuev never broke anybody's skull in the ring, to my knowledge.

Lots of other fighters have. That doesn't signify.
Of course, you can always put an upper limit on weight classes, as well as lower limit. If there are few contenders in the giants and midget classes, too bad - they'd have a cult following anyway.
As i mentioned earlier, genetic testing will become the norm, because there will be more kinds of scientific tampering, so long as there is money to be gained and lost. To filter out scams, they'll have to add a background check of medical procedures, so that'll flag anyone trying to pass without having invested themselves.
Those precautions will eliminate 80% of the potential abuses. Get rid of the 'stupid factor' (birth certificates; bigotry, tradition) and you're up to 90% - of a statistically very small problem.
The other 10% will have to be dealt-with case by case - as anomalies and novelties always had to be.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Lomax on May 6th, 2019, 5:17 pm 

One problem with dealing with it case-by-case is that the cases tend to be dealt with inconsistently. I gave the example of Phelps/Semenya, which many allege is an example of discrimination against those with DSDs, although it may just be a symptom of the disproportionate obsession with testosterone over other natural advantages. As for genetic testing, educate me: what can it tell us? Given that identifying an X or Y chromosome doesn't tell you what you need to know, strictly speaking.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 6th, 2019, 6:22 pm 

Lomax » May 6th, 2019, 4:17 pm wrote:One problem with dealing with it case-by-case is that the cases tend to be dealt with inconsistently.

That's always true of anything out of the ordinary.
Come to think of it, that's always true of adjudication of any kind.

As for genetic testing, educate me: what can it tell us? Given that identifying an X or Y chromosome doesn't tell you what you need to know, strictly speaking.

XXY, XXX, XYY, trisomy 21 (Down's) and broken chromosomes have been identifiable for decades, as have several other groupings that cause various conditions. By now, I'm sure they can tell a whole lot more; I haven't kept up with that rather complex and ever-growing discipline. My reference was aimed more at gene splicing and suppression/masking techniques that are likely to come along in the near future.
I think Edy420 mentioned cybernetics and surgical implants - the $6,000,000 man syndrome, if you will - as another possibility.
Technology keeps changing things that we used to take for granted, and it accelerates change. So we can't count on anything we take for granted lasting very long.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby hyksos on May 11th, 2019, 4:02 pm 

edy420 » May 2nd, 2019, 10:14 pm wrote:When its comes to physical attributes, men generally have an advantage. At the elite level, the differences are definitive. This is why we dont have Brock Lesnar fight Ronda Rousey in the UFC.

Thank you for making this thread. Somebody needs to be talking about this.

But according to the trans community this is a figment of my imagination. I am delusional to think that biological men differ from biological woman in any way. Must have been all the pot I smoked.

This is exactly what they claim, no exaggeration.

They have moved far beyond equality of law (women/men have same voting rights) and beyond equality of opportunity (if there is a male swim team, there should be a female swim team). Now "equality" means same-ness. Some professors are being banned from speaking at universities for saying this out loud. Ostracized.

Now, biological men are smashing woman's world records, in weight lifting, track and field etc. They are competing in womans team sports and even fighting in the UFC. (Biological men knocking out biological woman)

Organizations are scrambling to defend their right to differentiate, but it's a losing battle for them. They can not even turn to science, as a valid defense, because the trans-womans feelings are at stakes.

John McEnroe is known for having a loose mouth and speaking without filters. This is what "loose mouth" looks like in 2019. Someone said that Serena Williams was the greatest tennis player in earshot of McEnroe.

McEnroe said, "Well she's not the greatest in the world."

someone asked, "Why not?"

McEnroe replied, "Because she's a woman."

People gasped and pretended to act appalled. "How dare he say that?" etc. To see why there is nothing appalling here consider the following. Williams played against a male opponent who was the 113th ranked in the world. Not thirteenth, one hundred and thirteenth. (113). Result? He trounced her 4 sets to 1.

113 sounds like a large number, but there are 7 billion people on earth. So Williams could obviously destroy any male opponent at the local tennis court down the street, but the 113th is, in the grand scheme, a proficient and talented tennis player.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Lomax on May 12th, 2019, 8:08 am 

I don't object to McEnroe's observation, but the more I read about this issue the more further I drift toward Serpent's position. This polemical meta-study argues that the IAAF rulings against DSD participation are unfair precisely because sport itself is unfair, and to make ad hoc distinctions between one type of natural advantage and another is the least fair approach conceivable. They list various natural advantages that elite athletes already have, which are not restricted or excluded. All the same, gender transitioning might be argued to be an "unnatural" advantage, because it entails the injection of exogenous hormones which would normally not be allowed. This is more of a concern in the case of Mack Beggs than Fallon Fox - who is by no means the largest woman in the league, and lacks the ability to produce testosterone naturally, unlike her erstwhile competitors. But there is a problem of defining which natural advantages may be artificially gained and which may not. Oestrogen injections have the benefit of preserving bone density, yet are not a disqualified practice.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 12th, 2019, 9:44 am 

Oestrogen injections have the benefit of preserving bone density, yet are not a disqualified practice.

... presumably against other competitors who produce estrogen naturally.
I guess the hormone usage comes down to quantities - which also vary with age.....
so, do we discriminate against the young because they produce more of it? I don't know whether there is any difference between the natural and the therapeutic version of a hormone. I've been on artificial thyroxin for 15 years and still can't leap tall kerbs at a single bound.

I do have some sympathy for competitors who feel they've lost to someone with an unfair advantage. Not a huge amount of sympathy, because I've seen them strut and crow when they win and perhaps their own advantage was unfair - but some.

That a condition or a drug or regimen was not recognized ten years ago or fifty years ago, doesn't mean it's never existed before. Competition, when there is something at stake, has always inspired clever ruses, and there is always an element of chance. Maybe a lot of old world records are invalid.

So, what can you do?
Stop panicking.
Deal with facts, not conjectures and projections and athletes' opinions.
Eliminate the paper factor - they're not competing with their birth certificates: look at their bodies.
Eliminate prejudice to whatever degree possible.
Set standards that apply as inclusively as possible.
Keep the margin of error - the number of outliers - as small as possible.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Lomax on May 12th, 2019, 9:54 am 

Serpent » May 12th, 2019, 2:44 pm wrote:
Oestrogen injections have the benefit of preserving bone density, yet are not a disqualified practice.

... presumably against other competitors who produce estrogen naturally.

Yes, although (in the case of Fallon Fox) who probably had much higher bone density to begin with. Still, if that's the issue, we'd have to exclude African-Americans (and phenotypically similar ethnic groups) from oestrogen therapy, lest Deontay Wilder have an "unfair" adavantage over Tyson Fury. And we know where that sort of thing leads.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 12th, 2019, 12:24 pm 

And we know where that sort of thing leads.

42153 different classes in the same sport, with seven to ten qualified competitors in each? Be even more of a headache in team sports.
Ya. You can sub-categorize only so far. In a world full of athletes, there is a bit of leeway, I think, for dividing classes a little farther than they are now, but somebody has to figure out what's just far enough.
Not me!
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby edy420 on May 12th, 2019, 7:56 pm 

Lomax » 13 May 2019, 01:08 wrote:I don't object to McEnroe's observation, but the more I read about this issue the more further I drift toward Serpent's position. This polemical meta-study argues that the IAAF rulings against DSD participation are unfair precisely because sport itself is unfair, and to make ad hoc distinctions between one type of natural advantage and another is the least fair approach conceivable. They list various natural advantages that elite athletes already have, which are not restricted or excluded. All the same, gender transitioning might be argued to be an "unnatural" advantage, because it entails the injection of exogenous hormones which would normally not be allowed. This is more of a concern in the case of Mack Beggs than Fallon Fox - who is by no means the largest woman in the league, and lacks the ability to produce testosterone naturally, unlike her erstwhile competitors. But there is a problem of defining which natural advantages may be artificially gained and which may not. Oestrogen injections have the benefit of preserving bone density, yet are not a disqualified practice.


I'm not sure how to define a natural advantage. Semenya has 3 times more testosterone than a.. How do I define.. Woman. Your link acknowledges that the sporting community assumes that testosterone provides physical advantages. I thought this would be a scientific no brainer..

I guess it comes down to, how do we define a woman. Is a woman really just someone like Semenya who identifies as a woman. Or is there a definitive criteria for what is a woman.

Me being bias and a bigot, I think a woman should be able to give birth. Or at least have xx chromosomes with natural female genitalia. (intersex generally have various chromosome configuration though I can't find if Semenya has had tests. She does have gonads)

Perhaps someone can offer a better definition we can all agree on to advance this discussion.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 12th, 2019, 9:37 pm 

edy420 » May 12th, 2019, 6:56 pm wrote:
I guess it comes down to, how do we define a woman. Is a woman really just someone like Semenya who identifies as a woman. Or is there a definitive criteria for what is a woman.

What do you mean "identifies as"? Has she ever been anything else?
A midwife or doctor turns a baby upside-down, takes a quick look, says "It's a boy" or "It's a girl" and the parents raise a boy or a girl. People usually don't question that; high-school coaches usually don't check their students genitals - not legally, anyway!
Of-bloody-course she identifies as what she's been her whole life.

I think a woman should be able to give birth.

What should a man be able to do?
Should all athletes reproduce before they're allowed to compete? Oh, but wait, they start competing at age 5 or something - how do we know which ones will be able to reproduce? Are you sure it's a good idea to penalize the infertile by also banning them from sports?

Or at least have xx chromosomes with natural female genitalia. (intersex generally have various chromosome configuration though I can't find if Semenya has had tests. She does have gonads)

What about all the athletes who competed before chromosome anomalies were discovered?
And all the ones who have anomalies that haven't been discovered yet?
The governing bodies made rules against taking performance-enhancing treatments - but it hadn't occurred to them before to make a rule against using what your body produces naturally. Now they have.

Perhaps someone can offer a better definition we can all agree on to advance this discussion.

I hope medicine can do a little better than Crocodile Dundee.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby edy420 on May 12th, 2019, 10:01 pm 

A midwife or doctor turns a baby upside-down, takes a quick look, says "It's a boy" or "It's a girl"


That will get a midwife fired. A midwife can not identify gender, at least in my country.

So then what's your definition of a woman. I already know mine is flawed, but you don't offer one I can compare it too. Does it include gonads and xxxy chromosomes or 25xxy chromosomes?

A question for my wife when she gets home. Do you identify as the same gender with someone who has a testi and male hormones? I suspect that while intersex and trans may identify as woman, not all woman identify with them. Which is the ultimate issue with competitive sports.

On the topic of midwife, will woman be OK if I identify as a female midwife? Should they have the right to judge my identity? I'm OK if they do, because they should. This is an example of the fact that woman have the right to deny their identity is defined by others.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 12th, 2019, 10:53 pm 

edy420 » May 12th, 2019, 9:01 pm wrote:
A midwife or doctor turns a baby upside-down, takes a quick look, says "It's a boy" or "It's a girl"


That will get a midwife fired. A midwife can not identify gender, at least in my country.

Then what? Serious question. Is she not permitted to fill in the birth certificate, not allowed to inform the father and grandparents? Or is she provided with a testing kit?

So then what's your definition of a woman.

I don't have one; I've never needed one. I just take them at face value, and so far, none have disappointed my expectation. When I can't tell, I figure it's none of my business.

Does it include gonads and xxxy chromosomes or 25xxy chromosomes?

I don't see how it could, in the normal course of events.

Do you identify as the same gender with someone who has a testi and male hormones?

It's never come up.
I suspect that while intersex and trans may identify as woman, not all woman identify with them.

I wouldn't know.
Which is the ultimate issue with competitive sports.

All women don't get a vote. just the governing bodies of the various athletic organizations. They have access to more sophisticated testing, and authorization for more intimate examination methods, than the average laymen - or the average pee-wee league hockey coach.
This is one very difficult part of the "problem" - how do you sex-differentiate five-year-olds? If you're wrong about a kitten, the worst thing that happen is more kittens.

On the topic of midwife, will woman be OK if I identify as a female midwife?

Depends on your demeanour, donnit? There are male persons who deliver deliver babies, and as far as I know, they're still called midwives, and afaik nobody minds. https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/not-for-every-man-quebec-s-first-male-midwife-on-what-he-s-learned-1.4162789 They let male nurses and doctors in the room, occasionally policemen and taxi drivers, so what's the big deal?
Should they have the right to judge my identity? I'm OK if they do, because they should.

Now, you just tryn'a get groped!
Whoops! Can't miss Brokenwood!
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby edy420 on May 13th, 2019, 1:14 am 

A question for my wife when she gets home. Do you identify as the same gender with someone who has a testi and male hormones?


Got the straight forward answer I was looking for. Until I introduced sports, prison and transgender. Then it spiralled into the same rabbit hole as this thread, its incredibly diverse.

After a 45min discussion we were able to conclude a few things. First there are male midwives, so no big deal. Second, she wouldn't want to be in prison with a trans woman. They need segregation from her, a biological woman, and even from biological males. Thirdly, she wouldn't want to compete against trans woman. She's still unsure about intersex.

On the topic of prison, trans woman have raped biological woman. I heard on the radio that some were impregnated and gay activists were criticised for calling them men in woman's prisons. I can't find that story but there are multiple cases of trans woman with male genitalia raping woman. One could argue that woman rape woman, but I think it better for the woman who don't want to get pregnant, that trans woman are segregated.

It's best said here,

“We urgently need to start prioritising the safeguarding of women and girls over the feelings of male-bodied people.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... aren-white

Serpent,
I don't have one[definition of a woman] ; I've never needed one. I just take them at face value, and so far, none have disappointed my expectation. When I can't tell, I figure it's none of my business.


That's a good stance to have in general day to day life. But philosophy requires definitions. Else it's just pointless conversation. I'm forced to assume I know what your talking about on the topic, which leads me to believe your definition is simply, someone who says they are a woman. I've made the mistake of presuming I understand your position multiple times now. Its better if I don't respond to your posts unless you can give a clear definition, that we can use as the basis to discuss this topic. What is a woman. Once we know this, then we can ask about the moral implications of woman competing with those who do not match the definition of a woman.

According to Oxford dictionary..

woman
NOUN
1An adult human female.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 13th, 2019, 11:32 am 

Oxford English dons hardly ever get called upon to adjudicate olympic wrestling matches or prison segregation, so easy for them to write that in a book; they're only having to deal with the use of a word in an ordinary world where we mostly take things at face value: Billy's cleaning woman never has to hoist up her skirt for inspection, unless she's accused of stealing the silver candalabra.

woman=female=woman no problem, no philosophical third degree - and no clarity.

I never claimed to be an expert on chromosome classification. The sport organizations and prison boards will have to deal with their problems, free of any interference from me.
And I very much doubt you'll get any clarity from the entire body of Philosophy - which has a dearth of reference material on females, girls or women in any capacity other than their deleterious effect on males, and has never troubled itself unduly with their taxonomy. You may have to look elsewhere for an authority.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Lomax on May 13th, 2019, 12:50 pm 

edy420 » May 13th, 2019, 12:56 am wrote:I guess it comes down to, how do we define a woman.

I should think the salient question is why do we define a woman. That is to say: if we can clarify exactly why it is that women and men are segregated in sport, we will know how to approach the newer questions. For safety, sure - so why did they allow Liakhovich to fight Wilder? Why allow Sugar Ray Robinson to fight Jimmy Doyle? Skill mismatches are unsafe, too.

If the IAAF really thinks that mismatched testosterone is the only or primary safety concern - and if it doesn't, you wouldn't know it by its recent rulings on these matters - then why not simply segregate athletes by testosterone concentration?

If there's more to it than that, why do they only care about those genetic anomalies which affect testosterone?

At this point I don't much mind how or whether the divisions are carved; but if the athletics councils cannot offer coherent reasons as to why they segregate one pertinent trait and not another, then "discrimination" is exactly the accurate word.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 13th, 2019, 12:58 pm 

I think it's rather unfair to expect 20th, or 19th century regulatory boards to deal with this very distinctly 21st century problem quickly and correctly.
They're grappling and agonizing and trying to work through all the thorny, indistinct, fuzzy, contentious, multi-faceted issues, with no manual, no compass and no roadmap.
Cut them some slack!
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Lomax on May 13th, 2019, 1:20 pm 

Serpent » May 13th, 2019, 5:58 pm wrote:I think it's rather unfair to expect 20th, or 19th century regulatory boards to deal with this very distinctly 21st century problem quickly and correctly.
They're grappling and agonizing and trying to work through all the thorny, indistinct, fuzzy, contentious, multi-faceted issues, with no manual, no compass and no roadmap.
Cut them some slack!

No way! Renée Richards was disqualified from competing as a female tennis player in 1976, and fought to be reinstated, and the issue was legally and morally controversial. Every high-level athletics commission in the world subsequently spent forty years ignoring the growing issue. The problem goes further back because, as I say, sex isn't the only thing which confers a statistical advantage. That's why I discussed the case of Tommy Burns and Jack Johnson. That wasn't dealt with by the adjudicators, and the NBA and NYSAC formed fourteen years later with no policy or philosophy on the matter. It was dealt with by Tommy Burns who, with a perhaps typically male attitude, wanted to be the absolute best boxer of the human race, or else not considered a champion of any kind. It is a woman's perfect right to want to be the champion of only some particular subset, but if the WBC or the IBF wants to make this her ceiling of opportunity, they ought by now to be able to tell us why.

To your earlier charge of nitpicking, perhaps we might be satisfied to resolve the issue at the statistical level. Which is to say that if David only beats Goliath 10% of the time, and Caucasian Rocky beats dusky Mike 40% of the time, we have some reason for dividing boxers by weight and not by ethnicity. In that case we (or rather the IAAF) would be pragmatic in conducting a statistical analysis. But too much of their behaviour has been ad hoc already. They need to state, in advance, how much of a statistical imbalance constitutes a No Contest. And they need to clarify how much of a difference - in weight, colour, gender-normalcy - qualifies a fight as a datum in the analysis. And so on. They won't approach the issue in anything like such a sober and straightforward manner. They'll continue doing what they have been doing, which is holding the occasional meeting of randomly selected "experts", taking a vote of their opinions, and telling Caster Semenya "too bad".
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 13th, 2019, 3:00 pm 

Okay, I see your position.
Is there an agency of oversight that has jurisdiction across sport associations?
If not, perhaps one should be formed. Of course, its deliberations will be somewhat hampered by ongoing court cases, but it should at least be able to establish a basic principle to guide such decisions*.
As a supporter, you can advocate for such a thing, I suppose.
But of course, others with different interest will advocate for something else.
May the best lobby win!

*Not colour, btw; it's far too ambiguous. Testing and classification would have to be either on measurable phenotype or genotype - all in the computer, no eyeballing or groping.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Lomax on May 13th, 2019, 6:23 pm 

Serpent » May 13th, 2019, 8:00 pm wrote:Okay, I see your position.
Is there an agency of oversight that has jurisdiction across sport associations?

The IAAF would be the closest thing, although people often point to the IOC too. Organisations such as FIFA and the WBC make - and control - enough money and attention to have their own responsibility, too.

Serpent » May 13th, 2019, 8:00 pm wrote:*Not colour, btw; it's far too ambiguous. Testing and classification would have to be either on measurable phenotype or genotype - all in the computer, no eyeballing or groping.

The same must be said of sex, which is invariably judged on secondary characteristics. Some athletes with suspected intersex traits (such suspicion aroused by their success and masculine features) have been subjected to somewhat invasive procedures which might fairly be described as eyeballing and groping.

One feature I haven't given due prominence in this discussion is the law of unintended consequences. Many reports state that four female African athletes were either pressured or forced - it's not clear - to undergo chemical castration procedures, in order to avoid being disqualified for their intersex traits.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby edy420 on May 14th, 2019, 2:06 am 

Many reports state that four female African athletes were either pressured or forced - it's not clear - to undergo chemical castration procedures, in order to avoid being disqualified for their intersex traits.


Here is the obstacle I can't explain. You explain it as, woman with intersex traits. As I understand it, they are intersex who identify as a woman. There is nothing wrong with that, much like there is nothing wrong with men identifying as woman.

I was born a Maori. I identify as a Maori. If I get a DNA test and it says I'm Rarotongan with no Maori DNA, I will still identify as a Maori. But just because I identify as one, doesn't mean to say I match the definition of a Maori.

Some intersex identify as male. They can't biologically be both, but they can identify as both.

Biologically speaking, intersex are neither male or female. At least, according to the Oxford dictionary, and every other dictionary I've searched.
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Re: No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

Postby Serpent on May 14th, 2019, 10:36 am 

edy420 » May 14th, 2019, 1:06 am wrote:Some intersex identify as male. They can't biologically be both, but they can identify as both.

Biologically speaking, intersex are neither male or female.

Well, see, there's your problem in a nutshell.
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