The Science and Philosophy Forum

And there we have that circle again. When we look at history we can find both good and bad, the present is confusing with so many different ideas for what path to take. The media doesn't help and smacks of corruption with so many ideas being slammed before being properly heard. It all begs the question 'what if...?'
What we have discussed so far is no surprise, we know our history though at times we have different points of view. But where do we go from here? I have no great insights and would be a hopeless profit. We unfortunately do need to leave the future to those who will live in it however when we've looked at the past, we as a people have tended to look at history for guidance and there are many ways to read that history and many parts that a person can be lost in. It is not unreasonable to think that we should regress to a time when we didn't have anything and see about starting again however we have a population of somewhere near 7.5 billion and the thought of going back to nothing doesn't spark confidence of any form of success.
Present day leaders seem relentless in their efforts to put profit first before saving anything and continuously preach there is nothing wrong with what we are doing.
Maybe you're right and knowledge is freely available to those who look but societal restrictions through certification requirements mean that any person who looks to progress doesn't just need to study they need to pay for an overpriced course that will provide such certification. Yes, certification has been around for a very long time and so have the problems of the planet just that when we had a much smaller population it didn't seem to matter what we did.
Education stops being diversified as soon as a student achieves a level in life where they choose a direction. At this point it becomes directional and diversification comes from watching TV and social media. People in their 20's find it harder to change direction, they become focused on career development and have no time for alternate information. If they don't focus on career they become lost and their future isn't guaranteed within our society.
There isn't a single phrase that would satisfy a world full of doubt and conflict.

On one hand, I do realize that our present situation is hopeless. Written history does confirm the cyclical - or circular, as you say - paths human societies seem to follow.
The present rulers are irrelevant. When DJT is finished Mein Dumpf - "getting even" https://www.salon.com/2020/02/07/trumps-core-philosophy-get-even-its-going-to-be-really-ugly-folks/with America, it won't matter who the next president is, because America/Mexico will be unrecognizable. [not a joke] I suspect his buddies of doing the same to Russia/Ukraine and England/whatever's left of the UK. The rest of the world will muddle through another couple of decades, China probably taking the lead. None of those "leaders" have a cluster of wise men advising them to make good decisions -- in fact, this is likely to be another century of intellectual-purging. Techies exempt until their clever machines extract the last extractable sheckel from the middle classes and the last erg of useful work from the peasantry.
What happens after will be a massive die-off of humans along with whole species of others.
What happens after that will smell bad and lack purpose.
There will follow a long period of quiet.

What happens after that, I hope, is not a reboot of civilization, but post-history. This is why my optimistic reference points are pre-historic. For a long time before some bozo invented Progress, people did nothing spectacular. Spectacle is ephemeral; it's volatile and unsustainable. The survivors, if they can learn only one lesson, I hope they learn that one.
It would be nice if they somehow became mindful of Jesus's new commandment and even nicer if they could graft it on to the Native idea

The first hallmark of American Indian philosophy is the commitment to the belief that all things are related

https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780195328998.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780195328998-e-48 It would be nice if they could have another 30,000 years of not much going on.

And so rolls on democracy or what we pretend is such. America is the one everyone looks to as a big brother but the same is happening in other parts of the world. People who should never have been elected are leading their countries to disaster. What's most concerning though is they have followers no matter how they win an election.
In essence, intellectual purging is already happening. Generally people no longer have trust in what they're being told, as far as they're concerned it's all fake news. The fires in Australia woke up a lot of people however in the aftermath what they have said is that we don't clear enough bush. Now I know that where I live clearing is done regularly every fire season yet this didn't stop the fires, they just jumped open fields to the next clump of trees. Half our beautiful state was on fire and these people still stood rigid with their beliefs. Even with the government calling a Royal Commission they've already decided.
I fear, considering recent events and the reactions from these rulers, something hugely drastic needs to happen before people wake from their delusions. Even then I doubt some will ever wake up.
At some point we need to come up with a logical "what if" that everyone can believe in. It must happen because even with all these bad things happening people will move on regardless, always believing there is something better ahead.

JohnD » February 21st, 2020, 11:02 pm wrote:And so rolls on democracy or what we pretend is such. America is the one everyone looks to as a big brother

Don't you ever wonder how that happened? It's, after all, a very young nation, and it's set some pretty bad examples. I guess, if you put on a spangled white cowboy suit and shake your booty, everybody's mesmerized.

People who should never have been elected are leading their countries to disaster. What's most concerning though is they have followers no matter how they win an election.

Bad leaders always did. I haven't formulated A Unified Theory of Minions yet, but I have some notions about why. People are always pissed-off about something. Tap enough subterranean streams of urine, you can sway an entire country. Of course, you also need a Goebbels/Parscale https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/03/the-2020-disinformation-war/605530/ to hook and hold 'em.

In essence, intellectual purging is already happening.

Oh yes. Intellectual-bashing has been going on since Reagan, dumbing-down, considerably longer. About a year after Andrew Carnegie stopped trying to educate America, all the other moguls poured vast resources into neutralizing his effects.

The fires in Australia woke up a lot of people

What fires? Wasn't that all special effects sponsored by climate-change extremists?

however in the aftermath what they have said is that we don't clear enough bush.

Sure, just like California didn't rake their forests. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-03/trump-twitter-california-forest-fires-that-didnt-happen
Got to nominate a fall-guy, right? If it ain't the Jews, the Muslims, the Hispanics or the women, it's got to be the forest rangers.

I fear, considering recent events and the reactions from these rulers, something hugely drastic needs to happen before people wake from their delusions. Even then I doubt some will ever wake up.

Yup. That's where I've been the last four years.

At some point we need to come up with a logical "what if" that everyone can believe in.

Some people are trying very hard. I don't think they're being heard.

History books say it was WWII that did it. People were so grateful the Americans had joined the fray and changed the course of the war they felt they owed them everything and the Americans took everything. To this day they still dictate to the world and the world listens even if it contravenes their own national sense of dignity and law.
To the extent that it was Australian scientists working at the CSIRO that invented computers and the internet but the government here gave it away to the Americans and they have as yet to admit where they got it from. As a form of retaliation computers here cost nearly twice as much as they do anywhere else in the world. Remarkable isn't it.

And Canadian soldiers in the front lines, and English pilots over the Channel, and Gurkhas all over the place ...
Ay-yup. Victors get to write history books.
(really, it's money)
easy for you - it's almost 2 am over here, and i have to shut down for the nightly virus scan

Even in Philosophy, posts need some vetting for accuracy.

CSIRO invented wireless LAN technology, not the internet. Nor, AFAICT, did it invent the electronic computer.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mauchly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Vincent_Atanasoff

Doesn't seem to support your statement....

To the extent that it was Australian scientists working at the CSIRO that invented computers and the internet but the government here gave it away to the Americans and they have as yet to admit where they got it from.

The only person in the abstract with "pioneering" attached to their name is Von Neumann, a Hungarian working in the US. It does say Australia scientists influenced some developments, like Reverse Polish Notation, and no doubt people from many nations contributed ideas. But this...

John von Neumann’s two pioneering designs directly influenced four of the first Australian machines, and published US designs were taken up enthusiastically

...does not appear to support your quoted remark. Nor do my wiki citations.

I think as Serpent says the writing of history is up to the winner. I know what I've been told and what I've researched and it contradicts what you say by decades. Maybe it shall be one of those things that will never be resolved at least not as far as written history goes. I've known too many people who have had inventions stolen just because they couldn't afford a patent and unfortunately there is more than one case of U.S. agencies and companies taking inventions and calling them their own. That's all history and there's nothing that can be done with that.
It all reminds me of Plato and the 'Allegory of the cave'.

Oh, come on - not the cave! Except for Jesus saying "I bring not peace but a sword" that's the most abused quote in the world.
The lever was invented by a crow and humans took credit, because they were writing the history. The spa was invented by a troupe of Japanese macaques, and humans... well, you know.
Anyhow, long before patents, long before history, people have built upon the ideas and experience of other species and other people. Nobody invented fire or the wheel or clothing - generations of innovators improved on an idea.
That's what I mean about knowledge: it works best - and we work best - when we share it.
When somebody tries to hoard and monopolize and sequester knowledge, it goes bad and so does the owner.

JohnD » February 26th, 2020, 2:39 am wrote:I think as Serpent says the writing of history is up to the winner. I know what I've been told and what I've researched and it contradicts what you say by decades. Maybe it shall be one of those things that will never be resolved at least not as far as written history goes.

John, I was only trying to get some accuracy on specific claims, and not in any way craft a History Written by Winners. The computer was not a single invention, and obviously was developed across many international boundaries, including the UK, US, Australia, Canada, France, Germany, et al. I did feel that intellectual honesty compelled me to point out how the article you cited did itself not support the sentence you wrote, "...Australian scientists working at the CSIRO that invented computers and the internet...." Nor did I feel that specifically bashing the USA as thieving inventions was really quite fair, given the cross-fertilization across national boundaries that grows most innovation we now have. John Von Neumann was Hungarian, but did a lot of work in the US, so I wouldn't really be trying to ascribe a specific nationality there. Clearly, scientists of several nations migrated to the US simply because there was a lot of research funding and institutional/governmental support. If I were really going to oversimplify, I guess I'd have to tip my cap to Alan Turing, that clever Limey fellah, in getting the whole ball rolling on digital computing. And keeping my cap-doffing in the UK, there was Ada Lovelace Byron and Charles Babbage.

Who patented the abacus?