Are inventions invented, or descovered

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Are inventions invented, or descovered

Postby edy420 on November 7th, 2019, 5:27 pm 

When something is invented, its characteristics are predetermined by physics.

The wheel for example, is simply the descovery of weight transfer, over a circular object and central axis. We can not 'invent' a square wheel, as the laws of physics do not allow a flat object to transfer weight, on an axis.

All the concepts involved, are predefined by, what physics allows.

Considering all the concepts within our universe, can not be altered, then are we really inventing anything?

All inventions have already been thought of, by the universe. We simply redescover them.
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Re: Are inventions invented, or descovered

Postby Serpent on November 7th, 2019, 7:34 pm 

The universe operates unconsciously, with no thought, purpose or intention.
Invention is the in the domain of conscious entities with aims and desires. Invention is not a single act, but a multi-step mental exercise. It consists of:
- observing a process or operation in nature
- recognizing the principle involved
- making a connection between that principle and a need or want of the conscious entity
- imagining how that principle could serve the need
- figuring out a mechanism whereby it can be applied
Very often, the last step is the adaptation to a new purpose of a device that already exists in some form: nearly all invention relies on work done by previous thinkers and crafters.
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Re: Are inventions invented, or descovered

Postby bangstrom on November 7th, 2019, 11:12 pm 

Serpent » November 7th, 2019, 6:34 pm wrote: nearly all invention relies on work done by previous thinkers and crafters.

...and nearly all invention turns out to be some form of what Nature has been doing for eons.
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Re: Are inventions invented, or descovered

Postby Serpent on November 7th, 2019, 11:57 pm 

bangstrom » November 7th, 2019, 10:12 pm wrote:
Serpent » November 7th, 2019, 6:34 pm wrote: nearly all invention relies on work done by previous thinkers and crafters.

...and nearly all invention turns out to be some form of what Nature has been doing for eons.

Nature has never made a communications satellite or a toothbrush.
Whatever form nature's activities had taken was evidently insufficient to the requirements of conscious entities, or they wouldn't have improved upon it. That's what "invention" means.
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Re: Are inventions invented, or descovered

Postby -1- on November 8th, 2019, 8:58 pm 

Serpent » November 7th, 2019, 7:34 pm wrote:The universe operates unconsciously, with no thought, purpose or intention.

Humans operate consciously, with thought, purpose and intention.

Humans are part of the universe.

Whether the entire universe is like a human in this aspect, or like what we think is a piece of rock or a body of pure water, we are hardly in a position to tell.

If the quote was an opinion, sure. Anyone can have any opinion.

I would say the universe is made up of humanlike entities, in the sense of the quote, and of non-human like entities. To make a sweeping statement about the universe whether it is human-like or not in the aspects mentioned, is a bit pretentious, methinks.
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Re: Are inventions invented, or descovered

Postby Serpent on November 8th, 2019, 10:06 pm 

-1- » November 8th, 2019, 7:58 pm wrote:
Serpent » November 7th, 2019, 7:34 pm wrote:The universe operates unconsciously, with no thought, purpose or intention.

Humans operate consciously, with thought, purpose and intention.

As do all other conscious entities.
Which is what distinguishes conscious entities from inanimate matter.

Humans are part of the universe.

And therefore - what? Indistinguishable from asteroids?
OK - Jupiter forefend one should be thought pretentious!
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Re: Are inventions invented, or descovered

Postby -1- on November 14th, 2019, 4:33 am 

Serpent » November 8th, 2019, 10:06 pm wrote:
-1- » November 8th, 2019, 7:58 pm wrote:
Serpent » November 7th, 2019, 7:34 pm wrote:The universe operates unconsciously, with no thought, purpose or intention.

Humans operate consciously, with thought, purpose and intention.

As do all other conscious entities.
Which is what distinguishes conscious entities from inanimate matter.

Humans are part of the universe.

And therefore - what? Indistinguishable from asteroids?
OK - Jupiter forefend one should be thought pretentious!

Your argument -- and your failed attempt at irony and sarcasm -- only would stand if humans were not part of the universe.

You are creating Strawman fallacies, either because you don't understand that humans defy the statement you made originally, or because you desperately need to ignore it since it destroys your argument. "Humans are same as asteroids?" Whether this is a rhetorical question or an information-seeking one, it shows how you are grasping for straws now in order to build a strawman to try to defend your indefensible argument.
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Re: Are inventions invented, or descovered

Postby Serpent on November 14th, 2019, 2:36 pm 

I like words. They have so few defenders anymore, I thought I'd make an effort at intelligible meaning.
The argument failed, yes, but there were no straw men in the universe until humans invented them.
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Re: Are inventions invented, or descovered

Postby edy420 on November 15th, 2019, 7:24 pm 

Words are 'invented' by man.

But the concept of speech was predetermined by factors already present. With any language, they all have the same principles and do the same thing. communicate ones thoughts.

If we didn't have language, and we decided to 'invent' some form of communication that was easy to teach and understand, then we would invent language, speech and eventually written format.

All races 'invented' these concepts in the same way.. utter noises from the throat, eventually manipulating the sounds with the mouth to create a more diverse plethora of communication sounds. Draw pictures on caves, walls etc and eventually turning those into a more complex text for better communication..

No one invented talking, or text. All nations eventually discovered them.
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Re: Are inventions invented, or descovered

Postby Serpent on November 15th, 2019, 8:09 pm 

edy420 » November 15th, 2019, 6:24 pm wrote:Words are 'invented' by man.

Individual words, yes.

But the concept of speech was predetermined by factors already present. With any language, they all have the same principles and do the same thing. communicate ones thoughts.

Languages were also invented. But communication, both auditory and visual, existed long before humans: most other species communicate in similar way. Humans used verbal and non-verbal signals for a long time before realized the significance of what they were doing. The reason human languages are so similar is the same reason sparrow languages are so similar: all the common traits of members of the same species - sound-producing apparatus, brain structure, life needs, social unit organization. Not to mention the overlap, interaction and mixing of populations from at least 30,000 BC to the present; thus the learning of one another's languages, other alphabets and numerical notations.
The concept, function and principles of communication were neither invented nor discovered: they simply evolved, like flowers and wings. All humans did was organize sounds into spoken languages and marks into symbolic languages.
It wasn't until much later that some humans began to study these phenomena which already existed.
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