When Men And Woman Are Social Constructs

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When Men And Woman Are Social Constructs

Postby edy420 on July 6th, 2020, 2:10 am 

Most men and woman identify with a gender that has been invented and based on biological markers. Humans as a species have historically and culturally thought of themselves as belonging to 1 of 2 different groups.

Trans-activists deny any of this is relevant. They argue that Men can be woman and vise versa, with or without any treatment.

My understanding of this ideology, is that now men and woman are one and the same. Considering that there is no biological markers of any relevance (according to activists), then why do we have two groups of gender.

Trans activists wish to invent upwards of 70+ new genders. None of which have any measurable differences..

If gender is in fact just a social construct, then there is no genders.

IMO, this ideology is nonsensical, unscientific and completely pointless. Perhaps I just misunderstand.
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Re: When Men And Woman Are Social Constructs

Postby TheVat on July 6th, 2020, 9:40 am 

MOD note:

This OP may need further research, and some supporting citations, to meet SCF standards.
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Re: When Men And Woman Are Social Constructs

Postby Serpent on July 6th, 2020, 9:42 am 

And are you ready yet to explain why this is a problem?
What danger does it pose?
I mean: what danger is posed by the idea of gender-fluidity. I can see the danger posed by strife and conflict over it; I see the danger of imposing gender identity on people and enforcing a societal norm through punitive measures.
How does the idea damage persons?
How will the freedom of persons to define their own gender roles damage society?
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Re: When Men And Woman Are Social Constructs

Postby edy420 on July 6th, 2020, 7:30 pm 

Ok, regardless of further research, my ultimate question boils down to this.

I was born a male, and I identify as a man. My wife was born a female and identifies as a woman. Under the rules of the trans-gender movement..

How do I differentiate my gender, from my wife's gender.

Its a simple question, one I have been able to answer for years, But under new rules now I have no evidence to support my conclusion.

Of all places to explore this question, I would expect the most logical to be a philosophical discussion forum.
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Re: When Men And Woman Are Social Constructs

Postby Serpent on July 6th, 2020, 10:30 pm 

edy420 » July 6th, 2020, 6:30 pm wrote:I was born a male, and I identify as a man. My wife was born a female and identifies as a woman.

Wonderful!
Under the rules of the trans-gender movement..

Link, please. What rules?

How do I differentiate my gender, from my wife's gender.

I should imagine, the same way you've been doing.
Does the existence of people who don't fit in the same box cast doubt on your own identity?
Does the existence of France cast doubt on the legitimacy of new Zealand?

Its a simple question, one I have been able to answer for years, But under new rules now I have no evidence to support my conclusion.

There are no new rules and you don't need to justify your choice.
Really.
I mean this sincerely: Nobody gives a flying fig about which gender you identify with or why.

Of all places to explore this question, I would expect the most logical to be a philosophical discussion forum.

It might be. But all you're doing is setting up unconvincing straw hermaphrodites, running at them repeatedly and failing to knock them down. There must be some real fear behind this issue, and I'm sure if you really wanted to explore it, you could articulate it better than this.

You hold a belief that I consider unscientific, nonsensical and wrong. People with similar beliefs provably have and demonstrably do harm other people in support of that belief. Yet I do not advocate taking away your right to believe it, preach it, practice it and celebrate it - so long as you do not personally and directly violate or harm anyone.
You are asked for no more than that simple consideration:
Think what you will, but let others do likewise.
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Re: When Men And Woman Are Social Constructs

Postby edy420 on July 7th, 2020, 12:23 am 

Serpent,

The main rule I'm referring to, is that you can not use sexual organs to define someones gender. The only proof I have that I am a man, is that I have male parts. But ask any Trans-gender activists, this is not proof of gender. These are "their" rules, but they govern our leading scientific research AND education.

I mean this sincerely: Nobody gives a flying fig about which gender you identify with or why.


This is completely and utterly false. When ever I say, I am a man because I was born with a penis, LOTS of people give a flying fig.

What sparked my interest in this topic was the fact that you pointed out, I am indoctrinating my children with my beliefs and its harmful to them. At the very least, this topic should be cleared up, so that we can properly educate children without indoctrination and/or misinformation.

At this point, based on the evidence provided so far (none), I should be teaching them the truth is, there is no physical evidence that gender exists. Having 70+ genders all with the exact same physical differences (none), means they are all the same. Gender does not exist.

If I can not use my penis as evidence of my gender, then there is no evidence. This is the paradox of trans-gender ideology.

I would agree, if it were not blatantly false.
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Re: When Men And Woman Are Social Constructs

Postby Serpent on July 7th, 2020, 9:11 am 

edy420 » July 6th, 2020, 11:23 pm wrote:The main rule I'm referring to, is that you can not use sexual organs to define someones gender.

No. It's that you can't define another person's gender. You never should have had that right, and nobody else should have that power over you.
The only proof I have that I am a man, is that I have male parts.

When was the last time anyone in authority demanded proof that you are male? In what circumstances have you ever been called upon to provide proof?
But ask any Trans-gender activists, this is not proof of gender.

Why would I ask them about you?
These are "their" rules, but they govern our leading scientific research AND education.

'They' govern nothing. A modern liberal-minded society has generally (though by no means universally or consistently) decided to stop persecuting [some of] its non-conforming minorities.

When ever I say, I am a man because I was born with a penis, LOTS of people give a flying fig.

Name three and tell me why thy matter to you.

At this point, based on the evidence provided so far (none), I should be teaching them the truth is, there is no physical evidence that gender exists. Having 70+ genders all with the exact same physical differences (none), means they are all the same. Gender does not exist.

And the problem is... ?
If I can not use my penis as evidence of my gender, then there is no evidence.

Aha. So you're no longer the Big Aleph by virtue of a bit of dangly tissue? I can live with that. Society can live with that. You have not demonstrated it doing harm to anyone.

What sparked my interest in this topic was the fact that you pointed out, I am indoctrinating my children with my beliefs and its harmful to them. At the very least, this topic should be cleared up, so that we can properly educate children without indoctrination and/or misinformation.

That's really what it boils down to. The thing you are afraid of: losing control of your children's minds. Alternate ideas, different theories, contradictory opinions exist in the world. Some are more factually accurate than yours, some are less. Some are morally inferior, some are superior. Some are more effective, some are less practical.
Sooner or later, your children will be exposed to other points of view. They will have to make up their own minds how much of what to believe. You won't turn off the rest of the world by ranting at it and I very much doubt you can keep your children in an information-proof bubble.
The only chance of philosophy prevailing is to be more convincing than the competition. You'll need to muster better arguments.
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Re: When Men And Woman Are Social Constructs

Postby TheVat on July 7th, 2020, 9:42 am 

edy420 » July 6th, 2020, 9:23 pm wrote:



If I can not use my penis as evidence of my gender, then there is no evidence...


Your determination to argue a point on a topic of which you have minimal knowledge clearly identifies you as male.

:-)
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Re: When Men And Woman Are Social Constructs

Postby doogles on July 7th, 2020, 4:55 pm 

I think this is the sort of thing that edy420 is concerned about -- https://www.rt.com/op-ed/489259-un-husb ... incorrect/.
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Re: When Men And Woman Are Social Constructs

Postby Serpent on July 7th, 2020, 5:05 pm 

And you think that will suddenly confuse loving couples as to which of them puts what where after lights out?
Or are some persons worried that it might confuse married couples as to who's expected to collect dirty socks off the floor clean up the baby-puke?
I'm very sorry if they think the thought-police will come their house and enforce those 'rules' - and perhaps just a little sorry that it won't happen.
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Re: When Men And Woman Are Social Constructs

Postby doogles on July 8th, 2020, 3:50 am 

Serpent, I have to give you maximum credit for self confidence in commenting on what you think I think. Not many people have that confidence. It's a rare gift.

But I'll wait for edy420 to acknowledge whether what's written in that article by Robert Bridge contains the sort of material on gender identity he's talking about. I have some thoughts on the subject.
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Re: When Men And Woman Are Social Constructs

Postby Lomax on July 8th, 2020, 6:21 am 

There seems to be a confusion here between sex and gender. Some people do deny that distinction but we need to be clear about our premises and assumptions if we're going to get anything figured out. The gender you "identify" as is also not the same as the gender society has constructed for you - these are two different theories of gender.

I'm sure we're all here for intellectual reasons and not just to moan about other people's social/philosophical/scientific positions without actually listening to them, so for the debates between different theories the videos of ContraPoints are a good introductory course. The go-to for an explanation of the "social construct" theory of gender (which is just one among many) is philosopher Judith Butler's Gender Trouble. There are thousands of scientific studies on the sex/gender distinction but for the lay person this brief article might be a good way in.

And by the way Edy your genitals are not the only marker of your sex, as I've explained to you on another thread already. There are six markers used by the scientific community - genitalia, reproductive organs, chromosomes, secondary characteristics, psychology and endocrinology. It may have seemed simple back when the Earth seemed flat but that's not an excuse for us to make up biology on behalf of the experts.
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Re: When Men And Woman Are Social Constructs

Postby Serpent on July 8th, 2020, 8:47 am 

doogles » July 8th, 2020, 2:50 am wrote:Serpent, I have to give you maximum credit for self confidence in commenting on what you think I think. Not many people have that confidence. It's a rare gift.

I have not commented on what you think; I did respond to
I think this is the sort of thing that edy420 is concerned about
with a question. (?)
After which I speculated on what other, unspecified, persons might worry about, in a follow-up question. (?).
Then I gratuitously appended my own reaction to the cited article, as proof that I looked at it.
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