Can a sealed drone fly into space?

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Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Myuncle on July 3rd, 2016, 7:38 am 

We know that a bird or helicopter can't fly in space because in a vacuum there is no air. But imagine a huge drone, sealed inside an aluminium ball. Could it fly until space, making spaceflight cheaper?
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Braininvat on July 3rd, 2016, 9:56 am 

Drones also use aerodynamic lift, so, no.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Myuncle on July 3rd, 2016, 12:28 pm 

Thanks, but I don't understand exactly what you mean.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Watson on July 3rd, 2016, 12:38 pm 

I think he means wings?
In any case we have the aluminum shell you described. It goes on top of a rocket and gets blasted into space. As one getting there on its own power, I don't think so.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby zetreque on July 3rd, 2016, 12:55 pm 

As you reach space the air becomes more and more thin so it's harder to get there for one. In other words, it's propeller blades have nothing to push off of, as you said no air. So this is where it needs rocket fuel which amounts to a great deal of weight or mass that you have to deal with. To convert from propeller propulsion to rocket propulsion... I have probably never heard of such a thing because it's not feasible.

I have no idea what you mean about the aluminum ball, but welcome to the forums. :)
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Myuncle on July 3rd, 2016, 1:06 pm 

zetreque » July 3rd, 2016, 11:55 am wrote:As you reach space the air becomes more and more thin so it's harder to get there for one. In other words, it's propeller blades have nothing to push off of, as you said no air. So this is where it needs rocket fuel which amounts to a great deal of weight or mass that you have to deal with. To convert from propeller propulsion to rocket propulsion... I have probably never heard of such a thing because it's not feasible.

I have no idea what you mean about the aluminum ball, but welcome to the forums. :)



Thanks. I am wondering if it's feasable. It's not aerodynamics anymore, it becomes just a propulsion device. And maybe the drone blades would need to be upside down, who knows...If you put a bird inside a transparent plastic bag, doesn't the bird manage to fly? Maybe very slowly, but it flies. As long as the aluminium ball is light enough, wouldn't that be enough for the drone to propel itself and reach space? And the further up in the atmosphere, the hotter it will become, increasing its speed. No?
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby zetreque on July 3rd, 2016, 1:10 pm 

I think you might be confusing buoyancy.
If you have a sealed container, the only way to make it fly is to pump the air out of it so that it contains less air than what is inside of it and it can compensate for it's own weight. That's basically how helium balloons work. The helium inside is less dense and lighter than what's outside.

It has nothing to do with a drone or bird inside of your sealed container. Anything could be inside as long as you can get what's inside to be lighter than the air surrounding it's outside. A crude analogy is to imagine air in the atmosphere being like water in a lake where you have the boat floating on the surface would be where the edge of the atmosphere reaches space.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Myuncle on July 3rd, 2016, 1:14 pm 

Not necessarily lighter, but warmer. Anything warm in the atmosphere tends to go up.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby zetreque on July 3rd, 2016, 1:16 pm 

Myuncle » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:14 am wrote:Not necessarily lighter, but warmer. Anything warm in the atmosphere tends to go up.


That is because warm air is less dense than cool air.
You can't heat the air inside of your container and make it less dense without it expanding. If your container keeps it from expanding, it's not going to do anything except explode.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Myuncle on July 3rd, 2016, 1:20 pm 

zetreque » July 3rd, 2016, 12:16 pm wrote:
Myuncle » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:14 am wrote:Not necessarily lighter, but warmer. Anything warm in the atmosphere tends to go up.


That is because warm air is less dense than cool air.
You can't heat the air inside of your container and make it less dense without it expanding. If your container keeps it from expanding, it's not going to do anything except explode.



I mean that if the sealed drone manages to fly near the ground, it would manage to go even faster where the atmosphere becomes thinner.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby zetreque on July 3rd, 2016, 1:23 pm 

Myuncle » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:20 am wrote:
zetreque » July 3rd, 2016, 12:16 pm wrote:
Myuncle » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:14 am wrote:Not necessarily lighter, but warmer. Anything warm in the atmosphere tends to go up.


That is because warm air is less dense than cool air.
You can't heat the air inside of your container and make it less dense without it expanding. If your container keeps it from expanding, it's not going to do anything except explode.



I mean that if the sealed drone manages to fly near the ground, it would manage to go even faster where the atmosphere becomes thinner.


How so?
If the drone is sealed, it's propellers are not going to touch the air. If it isn't sealed there is less air to push on.

Imagine releasing a plastic bottle at the bottom of a lake. It rises to the surface then stops. It's not moving faster at the surface unless you are talking about drag resistance. But then you still haven't overcome a method or propulsion.

Please provide an example of a sealed drone even flying.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Myuncle on July 3rd, 2016, 1:28 pm 

An example? How can I provide an example if I have never tried? Did someone ever tried?
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Watson on July 3rd, 2016, 1:30 pm 

Back up a bit. A bird in a bag will just flop around on the ground. If the bag is big enough the bird may fly around inside but it will never cause the bag itself to fly, from the bird efforts inside.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby zetreque on July 3rd, 2016, 1:32 pm 

Myuncle » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:06 am wrote:If you put a bird inside a transparent plastic bag, doesn't the bird manage to fly? Maybe very slowly, but it flies.


Alright. Please provide an example of a bird flying in a transparent plastic bag then.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Myuncle on July 3rd, 2016, 1:34 pm 

Watson » July 3rd, 2016, 12:30 pm wrote:Back up a bit. A bird in a bag will just flop around on the ground. If the bag is big enough the bird may fly around inside but it will never cause the bag itself to fly, from the bird efforts inside.



Probably because the bird is going to hit the plastic. Maybe even a bee sealed inside a bag would fly as long as the wings don't touch the bag. But imagine a drone. If I had a drone, i would try myself, not with aluminium, but with a plastic bag, in a way that the blades don't touch the bag of course.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby zetreque on July 3rd, 2016, 1:36 pm 

A bird or drone or anything in a sealed container isn't going to interact with what is outside of the container and therefore not going to move.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Myuncle on July 3rd, 2016, 1:40 pm 

zetreque » July 3rd, 2016, 12:36 pm wrote:A bird or drone or anything in a sealed container isn't going to interact with what is outside of the container and therefore not going to move.


Imagine a bee, or a bumble bee suspended inside a mini plastic bag ball, isn't that strong enough to propel into flight?
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Watson on July 3rd, 2016, 1:41 pm 

All that would do it create a lot of air circulation with in the bag, The bag itself would have no lift. You would need to create air flow around the bag to lift it off the ground. Your design would require an unrelated strong wind, and perhaps a cliff.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby zetreque on July 3rd, 2016, 1:42 pm 

You don't need a drone to perform this science experiment to prove it to yourself. :)

How about putting a regular household fan inside of a box or garbage bag. Turn it on and observe what happens?
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Myuncle on July 3rd, 2016, 1:43 pm 

Yes Watson, that's why I was suggesting that the drone blades should be put upside down, so the air is pushed up.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Watson on July 3rd, 2016, 1:47 pm 

Regardless of orientation it is the same. Try grabbing you pant leg and lifting. How far off the ground can you lift? Both feet.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby zetreque on July 3rd, 2016, 1:51 pm 

Here is what I recommend.

Get a fan. One strong enough where you can set it on a skateboard or roller skate or something with wheels. Plug it in and turn it on. Make sure it's powerful enough to roll the wheels and move it along.

Now do the same thing but inside of a box or plastic bag (might have to build a wire frame to hold the plastic bag open.).

Create a hypothesis.
What is your hypothesis?
What do you think will happen?

Observe what happens and I have a feeling you might understand why this won't work.

If not, make an adjustment and new hypothesis and try again.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Myuncle on July 3rd, 2016, 1:53 pm 

Thanks I give up. Is there a youtube video with something similar? A fan mounted on a skateboard should move it. A fan inside a bag, can it move the skateboard? Any clip showing what would happen?
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby zetreque on July 3rd, 2016, 2:00 pm 

your search would be as good as mine.

What you will find is that the skateboard will just run into the side of the box or bag because it's pushing air to the other side of the bag. The bag will not move. It might move a fraction right when the skate board slams into the side, but that's it.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Watson on July 3rd, 2016, 2:05 pm 

Actually I don't think a fan blade is the same as a propeller blade. I think a fan on a skateboard will just fan the air.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Watson on July 3rd, 2016, 2:09 pm 

Like BiV suggested, search aerodynamics, of a plane wing, of a propeller, of flight. That is what you are missing.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby zetreque on July 3rd, 2016, 2:11 pm 

Watson » Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:05 am wrote:Actually I don't think a fan blade is the same as a propeller blade. I think a fan on a skateboard will just fan the air.


Why not?
are you thinking of a fan that rotates back and forth?

If the fan is strong enough and stationary it will roll the skateboard no different than a propeller.

Attach a fan to a skateboard, give it some wings and you have yourself an airplane. :)
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby Watson on July 3rd, 2016, 2:17 pm 

No, you don't.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby zetreque on July 3rd, 2016, 2:29 pm 

yes you do. the prop gives propulsion and the wings lift in this case. Not saying it's going to be a very good plane, but that's what planes are.
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Re: Can a sealed drone fly into space?

Postby zetreque on July 3rd, 2016, 2:36 pm 



Now if you put that fan in a sealed container attached to the train in the same way, it's not going to move. The air will just blow around in the container.
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