Rape 102

[CanadysPeak]

There was an horrific story in the NY Times today,

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/healt ... sault.html

One in five women raped in their lifetimes versus one in seventy-one men. Mein Gott! The thing that makes it all so disturbing to me are the current stories out of Penn State and Syracuse where, in each instance, the victims were villified, called liars, and said to be in it for the money.

It seems so obvious that we don't do a good job of teaching, whether by instruction or example, that the penis is not a weapon. Yet, by the time a rapist is old enough to actually do the crime, it almost seems too late to effect a change, whether through therapy or chemicals.

Is part of it that we men who never act that way also don't speak up? Do we have a responsibility for our brutal brethren? Thoughts? Comments?

[wolfhnd]

It seems so obvious that we don't do a good job of teaching, whether by instruction or example

I think there is too much hand wringing over the helplessness of victims and monstrosity of perpetrates. Outside of pathological individuals rape is just one more illustration of our weak commitment to the basic social contract where in we commit ourselves to being part of a community and not just individuals. Considering the consequences our actions will have on others is a fundamental part of being civilized and must be taught. Creating a sense of helplessness or victimization and class distinction will not help.

There are some strange ideas that have become popular one of which is the idea that the primary motivation for rape is control of the victim. To me this is like saying the primary motivation for theft is is to control the people robbed. Remove the sexual gratification and the crime takes on an entirely different nature. My guess is that this idea grew out of a reaction to the historical view that woman were property and subject to the control of males. While old ideas about the roles of the sexes may contribute to attitudes that lead to sexual abuse I'm not at all sure that changing these attitudes will have a significant impact on the problem. Rape being present in all societies to one degree or the other our tactics for addressing it need to reach deeper than societies attitudes about the sexes. As with all crimes encouraging a sense of commitment to the welfare of all members of society is perhaps the best that can be done.

Rape is just one of a myriad of social problems that seem to have always been present in human societies. The expectation of privacy is perhaps the major difference between tribal life and modern society. Isolation creates an environmental where destructive social deviancy can ferment. In traditional intergenerational cohabitation, within a tribal environment that discouraged sexual aggression, rape would seem to be a rare problem. Our increasing demand for personal freedom and privacy extracts a high price not only in terms of the frequency of sexual aggression but I suspect in many other ways as well. Freedom extracts a high price not the least of which is societies ability to control individual behavior that is detrimental to societies interest. This is best illustrated by our continued commitment to not persecute the accused without a preponderance of evidence.

[ronjanec]

Canady,

The fact that one in five women have been raped does not surprise me one bit Canady(probably much more than this in actual reality). I have three very good looking sisters, and since I use my real name here that's all I will say about this.

I worry about them and my nieces going out alone even in daylight; If I had a wife, girlfriend, or daughters, I would also worry about them going out alone even in daylight. If I had a little daughter, she would never ever be allowed to go to school or come home from school by herself.

My mom used to take the bus home from work in the middle of the night all by herself and no one ever bothered her. A young woman in Chicago today would actually be considered crazy to take the bus home alone in the middle of the night, and are even very cautious about doing the same during the day even during the morning or evening rush hours.

What has happened to our society that has caused this terrible change? When my mom was taking the bus, many people went to church or temple on a regular basis(I believe there were very few Muslims living here at the time) Today, very few people go to church or temple on a regular basis. People who go to church, temple or mosque on a regular basis very rarely rape anyone.

A nation that has lost it's religion in the same way that America has in the last 50 or so years becomes a really scary place to live, and the horrible rape statistics are one example of this.

More education will help a little, but very very little in comparison to an increase in religious services observance by the people of any particular nation IMHO. And it looks this is only going to get worse if we continue on the same path as a nation.

[wolfhnd]

I suspect that the increase in awareness of the risk of sexual assault are do to changes in law enforcement and reporting technology more so than the prevalence of rape so caution should apply to historical rates.

As for religion, well the Catholic Churches cover up of abusive priest and this story on muslin immigrants may be an indication of how little help it offers. http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/02/mu ... n-and.html

[ronjanec]

I suspect that the increase in awareness of the risk of sexual assault are do to changes in law enforcement and reporting technology more so than the prevalence of rape so caution should apply to historical rates.

As for religion, well the Catholic Churches cover up of abusive priest and this story on muslin immigrants may be an indication of how little help it offers. http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/02/mu ... n-and.html

wolfhnd,

During the Great Depression, I have read that many former working people used to sleep overnight in the Chicago parks after they lost their jobs and it was very safe to do so. I can't even imagine any recently unemployed person doing this today in any park anywhere in the Chicago area without them getting seriously hurt or even worse in doing this.

The Catholic priests are kind of a special case here, and are basically forced to go against their human nature to never have any sex. A church policy and tradition that I believe is a mistake.

I cannot agree that this is mostly a question of changes in law enforcement and reporting technology wolfhnd.

[wolfhnd]

ronjanec you may be right but I can't find any historical data that is trustworthy. Random crime certainly seems more prevalent but other factors come into play when trying to decide if it is getting worse or better.

[ronjanec]

ronjanec you may be right but I can't find any historical data that is trustworthy. Random crime certainly seems more prevalent but other factors come into play when trying to decide if it is getting worse or better.

wolfhnd,

I know historical data is not always trustworthy, but when mom told me what she used to do as a young woman(!), I have to believe this data!

[Louis_B]

Hi Canady. I think during puberty and adolescence there is far too much testosterone and far too little learned control to deal with it. Add to this peer pressure in macho gang groups and other violence-rewarding cultural dysfunctions that it sadly inevitable I think that some young studs will go competely crazy and rape someone.
I personally detest the confrontational way courts deal with such cases, meaning very often the victim feels raped twice. Once by the perp, and again by the system. This to me is exceedingly inhumane and ought to be reevaluated with extreme predjudice.

[Sisyphus]

Is part of it that we men who never act that way also don't speak up? Do we have a responsibility for our brutal brethren? Thoughts? Comments?

Yes. I think this video will answer your questions... http://www.viddler.com/clintonschool/videos/334/

The Catholic priests are kind of a special case here, and are basically forced to go against their human nature to never have any sex.

It's totally not just Catholics. Here's a few examples of sex crimes by clergy from various religions... http://clergygonewild.com/sex-abuse

[edy420]

Hi Canady. I think during puberty and adolescence there is far too much testosterone and far too little learned control to deal with it. Add to this peer pressure in macho gang groups and other violence-rewarding cultural dysfunctions that it sadly inevitable I think that some young studs will go competely crazy and rape someone.
I personally detest the confrontational way courts deal with such cases, meaning very often the victim feels raped twice. Once by the perp, and again by the system. This to me is exceedingly inhumane and ought to be reevaluated with extreme predjudice.

Very true.

In New Zealand, alleged rape victims have to be examined for evidence with a rape kit.
It is invasive and quite literally is a second rape.

With a staggering statistic like 1 in 5 woman being raped, it is evident that prison is not a deterrent for rapists.
Instead of trying to deter a male with something that is most likely not even going to be considered, we should be trying to pinpoint the start of the problem.

I suspect that most rapists are single, keep to themselves, watch porn and think that woman like to be violently handled.
Ok, so thats entirely speculation :P
But I'm sure there are some common denominators we could work with, and translate that information usefully into education, along with sex education.

[Fuqin]

I think it would be a mistake to assume a rapist might have a particular profile .

[wolfhnd]

FBI’s Uniform Crime Report

■In 2010, an estimated 1,246,248 violent crimes occurred nationwide, a decrease of 6.0 percent from the 2009 estimate.
■When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2010 estimated violent crime total was 13.2 percent below the 2006 level and 13.4 percent below the 2001 level.
■There were an estimated 403.6 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010.
■Aggravated assaults accounted for the highest number of violent crimes reported to law enforcement at 62.5 percent. Robbery comprised 29.5 percent of violent crimes, forcible rape accounted for 6.8 percent, and murder accounted for 1.2 percent of estimated violent crimes in 2010.
■Information collected regarding type of weapon showed that firearms were used in 67.5 percent of the Nation’s murders, 41.4 percent of robberies, and 20.6 percent of aggravated assaults. (Weapons data are not collected for forcible rape.)

Looking at the statistics for violent crime it's clear that rape is just one expression of the prevalence of violence in society. The question becomes is rape a special kind of violence that needs to be address separately? To me it looks like rape and aggravated assault result in murder at a surprisingly low rate. This tends to suggest that the level of violence that offenders are willing to engage in is somehow limited. The level of violence may be controlled through instinct or social orientation or both. Increasing the populations sensitivity to violence may or may not reduce the frequency of rape but I generally think that holistic solutions are preferable to addressing specific malignancies. Surely raising the general level of civility would not be a bad thing.

[CanadysPeak]

Is part of it that we men who never act that way also don't speak up? Do we have a responsibility for our brutal brethren? Thoughts? Comments?

Yes. I think this video will answer your questions... http://www.viddler.com/clintonschool/videos/334/

The Catholic priests are kind of a special case here, and are basically forced to go against their human nature to never have any sex.

It's totally not just Catholics. Here's a few examples of sex crimes by clergy from various religions... http://clergygonewild.com/sex-abuse

Sisyphus,

Thanks for the links. I can't get the Arkansas video to run, but Katz is a most interesting guy. His work on Mentoring is in line with my question about our (males') collective responsibility. My age cohort was conditioned to not share emotions and values, save in the context of Big Religion, and it took me years and years to move past that even a little bit to where I can now object when sexual violence is trivialized.

You are (I think) much younger than I; what is your take on that question?

[CanadysPeak]

FBI’s Uniform Crime Report

■In 2010, an estimated 1,246,248 violent crimes occurred nationwide, a decrease of 6.0 percent from the 2009 estimate.
■When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2010 estimated violent crime total was 13.2 percent below the 2006 level and 13.4 percent below the 2001 level.
■There were an estimated 403.6 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010.
■Aggravated assaults accounted for the highest number of violent crimes reported to law enforcement at 62.5 percent. Robbery comprised 29.5 percent of violent crimes, forcible rape accounted for 6.8 percent, and murder accounted for 1.2 percent of estimated violent crimes in 2010.
■Information collected regarding type of weapon showed that firearms were used in 67.5 percent of the Nation’s murders, 41.4 percent of robberies, and 20.6 percent of aggravated assaults. (Weapons data are not collected for forcible rape.)

Looking at the statistics for violent crime it's clear that rape is just one expression of the prevalence of violence in society. The question becomes is rape a special kind of violence that needs to be address separately? To me it looks like rape and aggravated assault result in murder at a surprisingly low rate. This tends to suggest that the level of violence that offenders are willing to engage in is somehow limited. The level of violence may be controlled through instinct or social orientation or both. Increasing the populations sensitivity to violence may or may not reduce the frequency of rape but I generally think that holistic solutions are preferable to addressing specific malignancies. Surely raising the general level of civility would not be a bad thing.

Thanks for all the stats. That's quite helpful. The civility question is perhaps pertinent to the larger question of violence. The local PBS station is fond of running videos of how things used to be in Pittsburgh. They had one of old Forbes Field (where Mazeroski hit the famous home run in 1960) and my wife and I were almost stunned by all the folks (this was still a mill town) wearing coats and ties or hats and gloves and not drunkenly removing their clothes to show their breasts painted black and gold. I suspect there must have been some fighting, but there were no reports of all cars with New York tags having their tires slashed (see us and Cleveland in modern times).

There's a saying I've heard used in behavioral conditioning, "Fake it till you make it." Thus, if we just start by pretending, however cycnically, to disapprove of sexual violence, eventually we might believe it a little ourselves, and those younger than we, and who look to us for modelling behavior (see Banduras), will consider that more the norm than some of the loutist violence now glorified everywhere in our culture.

So, even if we can't do much about our peers, perhaps we can, as role models, change attitudes of younger men?

[Sisyphus]

You are (I think) much younger than I; what is your take on that question?

I'll see if I can find another video link for that. It's a really good video. In the video, Katz makes a lot of good points, and I have to agree with him.

We need to not think of rape, or any other violence against women as a "women's issue". It's really a men's issue. The majority of violence against women is committed by men. Less than 1% of rape is committed by women. Instead of thinking of violence against women as just a "learned behavior", we should think about it as a taught behavior.

The common perpetrator of violence against women is not some mentally ill person, psychopath, or psychologically different from what we would consider a "normal guy". If you look at the statistics, the victim usually knows the perpetrator. To think of men who commit violence against women as some crazy "other guy", it distances ourselves (men) from the situation. It makes us less likely to question our own behavior, or ask questions about the society we live in, because it's those "other guys" that are the problem.

If another man we know, displays some abusive and sexist behavior towards women, we need to step in and let him know that it's not alright to do that. There are also other, more subtle factors in society and ourselves that need to be looked at, but they're not as easy to recognize because we're so used to them. This is where the term "rape culture" comes from.

This topic seems to make a lot of men defensive because it's difficult to critique ourselves like that. The ego often gets in the way, and makes guys hear something else from what is being said, or not listen at all. But, it's not enough to say, "I'm not a rapist.", or, "I don't beat my wife." We, as men, need to be doing a lot more.

Anyway, I think Katz explains all this a lot better in the video. I'll try to find another link for you. Here's a couple other articles you might find interesting.

How to prevent rape without blaming victims

STUDY: More Than Half Of Black Girls Are Sexually Assaulted

[wolfhnd]

We need to not think of rape, or any other violence against women as a "women's issue".

There should be no women's issues only human issues.

[CanadysPeak]

You are (I think) much younger than I; what is your take on that question?

I'll see if I can find another video link for that. It's a really good video. In the video, Katz makes a lot of good points, and I have to agree with him.

We need to not think of rape, or any other violence against women as a "women's issue". It's really a men's issue. The majority of violence against women is committed by men. Less than 1% of rape is committed by women. Instead of thinking of violence against women as just a "learned behavior", we should think about it as a taught behavior.

The common perpetrator of violence against women is not some mentally ill person, psychopath, or psychologically different from what we would consider a "normal guy". If you look at the statistics, the victim usually knows the perpetrator. To think of men who commit violence against women as some crazy "other guy", it distances ourselves (men) from the situation. It makes us less likely to question our own behavior, or ask questions about the society we live in, because it's those "other guys" that are the problem.

If another man we know, displays some abusive and sexist behavior towards women, we need to step in and let him know that it's not alright to do that. There are also other, more subtle factors in society and ourselves that need to be looked at, but they're not as easy to recognize because we're so used to them. This is where the term "rape culture" comes from.

This topic seems to make a lot of men defensive because it's difficult to critique ourselves like that. The ego often gets in the way, and makes guys hear something else from what is being said, or not listen at all. But, it's not enough to say, "I'm not a rapist.", or, "I don't beat my wife." We, as men, need to be doing a lot more.

Anyway, I think Katz explains all this a lot better in the video. I'll try to find another link for you. Here's a couple other articles you might find interesting.

How to prevent rape without blaming victims

STUDY: More Than Half Of Black Girls Are Sexually Assaulted

You're right in saying that's it's difficult to critically examine our beliefs. When I started reading your post, I smugly told myself that I'm not like that. Then I got a little uneasy. I do forget that it's a men's issue. Thanks for getting under my skin.

[Sisyphus]

There should be no women's issues only human issues.

Well, okay. Maybe that's true in a way, but I don't think that's going to be productive. The problem here is mostly caused by men. If we call it "human issues", that's going to take some of the burden off of men.

You're right in saying that's it's difficult to critically examine our beliefs. When I started reading your post, I smugly told myself that I'm not like that. Then I got a little uneasy. I do forget that it's a men's issue. Thanks for getting under my skin.

Cool. You're welcome. I've found that whenever an idea makes us uncomfortable, we should examine it further until that uncomfortable feeling goes away. It usually means we're about to learn something new about ourselves.

[wolfhnd]

Well, okay. Maybe that's true in a way, but I don't think that's going to be productive. The problem here is mostly caused by men. If we call it "human issues", that's going to take some of the burden off of men.

What's not going to be productive is divisive tactics that make issues the domain of one sex or the other. While males are responsible for most of the physical violence in the world most of them were trained by females during their formative years.

According to a 2009 report from the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, that year 27.3 percent of child deaths resulting from abuse were perpetrated by the mother, compared to only 14.8 percent of fathers. Mothers and fathers acting together accounted for 22.5 percent of child deaths. According to these same statistics only 2.3 percent of fatalities were committed by a parent’s male partner.

[Sisyphus]

While males are responsible for most of the physical violence in the world most of them were trained by females during their formative years.

So, you think women train boys to be physically violent?

[wolfhnd]

So, you think women train boys to be physically violent?

While woman may not train boys to be violent they do appear to be dispassionately violent to their children. Which illustrates the power of hormonal influences on behavior and how unlikely it is that encouraging males to develop a more "female attitude" will alleviate the problem. Apes are inherently violent and as apes humans share that characteristic with other apes. It is through culture that we learn to act responsibly and passing on that culture is the responsibility of both sexes. In a patriarchal society the responsibility to make children civilized unfortunately falls primarily on females. Feminist theory tells us that in a patriarchy all social mechanisms reproduce and exert male dominance over women. Male dominance however does not necessarily imply that rape is condoned. If you exclude rape within marriage patriarchy often is violently apposed to rape. The theory that rape is a product of patriarchy is uncalibrated by evidence at best. Even in a matriarchy rape is likely to exist if there are marginalized males with weak social bonds and limited sexual experience. Full cooperation between the sexes is the best way forward in addressing sexual violence. I take exception to the idea that the creation of "woman issues" is progress and that men in general should take primary responsibility for sexual aggression. Sexual aggression is everyones responsibility to alleviate. Sexually neutral civility and equality is the best answer.

[Sisyphus]

While woman may not train boys to be violent they do appear to be dispassionately violent to their children.

The statistics you gave don't show that at all. The statistics you gave were for child deaths. In any case, why assume that only abused children would be the ones that would commit violence against women? And, if both boys and girls are victims of child abuse, why is it that men are responsible for almost all of the violence against women?

Which illustrates the power of hormonal influences on behavior and how unlikely it is that encouraging males to develop a more "female attitude" will alleviate the problem.

A "female attitude"? What is that supposed to mean?

Apes are inherently violent and as apes humans share that characteristic with other apes. It is through culture that we learn to act responsibly and passing on that culture is the responsibility of both sexes. In a patriarchal society the responsibility to make children civilized unfortunately falls primarily on females.

So, the culture of responsibility is the responsibility of both sexes, but teaching how to be civilized is mostly the responsibility of women? Huh?

Feminist theory tells us that in a patriarchy all social mechanisms reproduce and exert male dominance over women. Male dominance however does not necessarily imply that rape is condoned. If you exclude rape within marriage patriarchy often is violently apposed to rape. The theory that rape is a product of patriarchy is uncalibrated by evidence at best.

Yet, here we are in the patriarchy, with less than 1% of rape being committed by women.

Even in a matriarchy rape is likely to exist if there are marginalized males with weak social bonds and limited sexual experience. Full cooperation between the sexes is the best way forward in addressing sexual violence. I take exception to the idea that the creation of "woman issues" is progress and that men in general should take primary responsibility for sexual aggression. Sexual aggression is everyones responsibility to alleviate. Sexually neutral civility and equality is the best answer.

You say it should be everyone's responsibility. Have you heard of Feminism? Women have been taking responsibility for quite some time now. They have Feminist conferences and groups, where rooms full of women discuss violence against women, violence that's overwhelmingly committed by men. We don't have men's conferences like that, where we talk about the problem. The burden of responsibility has been placed solely on women for far too long. It's time that men started taking responsibility too.

[wolfhnd]

So, the culture of responsibility is the responsibility of both sexes, but teaching how to be civilized is mostly the responsibility of women? Huh?

I didn't say that it should be but as a result of western civilization being patriarchal that is the way it is. Both sexes should be equally responsible.

The statistics you gave don't show that at all

Again you missed the point, which was to show that despite popular belief that violence is learned behavior there is a strong hormonal or instinctual influence. It also shows that hormonal differences between the sexes affect the way violence is expressed.

Yet, here we are in the patriarchy, with less than 1% of rape being committed by women.

I think you need to look at the politics of sex in a patriarchy.

Sex is practiced freely. They only have to choose a partner to spend the night and only incest is forbidden. Typical marriage and fidelity are something like heresy. Obviously, they don't seem to present signs of jealousy. The western love tragedies of revengeful and victimized lovers make them laugh. They think the visitor is kidding them "How is it possible to end your precious life for something so banal like sex?"

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Mosuo-On ... 6321.shtml

Woman in a patriarch tend to use sex to exert control having been denied full membership in society. When sex is devalued as in the matriarchal society above the incident of rape is reduced. Of course it should be noted that the communal nature of these societies make deviance more transparent.

The burden of responsibility has been placed solely on women for far too long. It's time that men started taking responsibility too.

You have notice that the criminal code largely created by men and enforced by men has severe penalties for sexual assault? Feminism is unnecessarily divisive and excessively critical of males.

[Sisyphus]

Again you missed the point, which was to show that despite popular belief that violence is learned behavior there is a strong hormonal or instinctual influence. It also shows that hormonal differences between the sexes affect the way violence is expressed.

What you offered did not show that. You would need to provide a scientific study to show that. You really, really, really, really need to watch the video I posted earlier.

Woman in a patriarch tend to use sex to exert control having been denied full membership in society.

Assuming that's even true, what do you think that implies in regards to rape?

You have notice that the criminal code largely created by men and enforced by men has severe penalties for sexual assault?

Severe penalties?

"The average sentence for criminals convicted of rape in the United States (and released in 1992) is 117 months. The average time served is 65 months, which equates to 56 percent of the actual sentence served. For crimes of sexual assault, the average sentence is 72 months, and the average time served is 35 months, equating to 49 percent of time served." (Greenfeld, Lawrence A., 1995, "Prison Sentences and Time Served for Violence," page 1, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.)
https://www.ncjrs.gov/ovc_archives/ncvr ... m-rape.htm

Some more statistics...

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/st ... ting-rates

http://www.rainn.org/statistics

"Nearly 90,000 people reported being raped in the United States in 2008. There is an arrest rate of 25%."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States

Feminism is unnecessarily divisive and excessively critical of males.

Well, I don't see men being very critical of themselves. Feminism exists because men haven't been doing enough to help protect the rights of women, so they had to take it upon themselves to protect their own rights.

[wolfhnd]

The statistic you quote are very nice but taken them out of the context of patriarchal society misses the point. Historically reduced prison sentences along with reduction in capital punishment for all crimes is a trend. The feminist argument that patriarchal social structure encourages rape while partially true misses the point that historically the punishment for rape has been very severe. Regardless of the motivation of the patriarchal society the claim that men are indifferent to the protection of woman against sexual predication is a bit of an overstatement.

At times there is a need for social classes to act independent as was the case for suffrage. My argument is that rape is not one of those cases. The second part of my argument focuses on the effectiveness of collective as apposed to unilateral action. I find feminism to have advanced womans rights, with the exception of the suffrage movement, less than the civil rights movement. Inclusive movements are simply more effective. When social classes act independently the results are often mixed as was the case with the antiwar movement of the 60s where the majority of activist were youths. I see no need to create another ineffective movement that focuses too narrowly on a specific social problem and is unlikely to reach the audience where it could have a positive impact.

Feminism major contribution to society is in raising the self esteem of woman and class movements are useful in that regard. If raising the self esteem of males will reduce rape then by all means create a movement to do so.

[Sisyphus]

We're just talking past each other. Maybe I'm not articulate enough to get these points across to you. If you care, then just watch this video. He explains the situation a lot better than I can.

http://www.viddler.com/clintonschool/videos/334/

And, here's his website if you want to know more... http://www.jacksonkatz.com/

[Sisyphus]

Here's another video on this topic, divided into seven parts. Here's a summary of the video...

While the social construction of femininity has been widely examined, the dominant role of masculinity has until recently remained largely invisible. Tough Guise is the first educational video geared toward college and high school students to systematically examine the relationship between pop-cultural imagery and the social construction of masculine identities in the U.S. at the dawn of the 21st century.

In this innovative and wide-ranging analysis, Jackson Katz argues that widespread violence in American society, including the tragic school shootings in Littleton, Colorado, Jonesboro, Arkansas, and elsewhere, needs to be understood as part of an ongoing crisis in masculinity.

This exciting new media literacy tool -- utilizing racially diverse subject matter and examples -- will enlighten and provoke students (both males and females) to evaluate their own participation in the culture of contemporary masculinity.

[o7-12q]

As a female with some perspective on the subject, it seems male low self esteem, inflated sense of entitlement or feeings of being deprived over a long period of time ... not just in sex, but personal affection or a sense of feeling ashamed of wanting/needing more affection than they have received ... probably play a role in the act of violent or forced sexual assult on women. The US still has a long way to go in developing a healthy sex education for young people. The terms sexually repressed & shaming (or incorporation of some kind of negative connotation on having sex) come to mind when I think of how people in authority (parents, teachers, etc) deal with males & their sex education. I wouldn't be surprised if my nephew (now in his mid 20's) became a sexual assault assailent; based on how my sister treated him -- frequent disapproval & insulting, with very little praise or physical affection. She was consistently degrading him in front of me (which in hindsight was to shame him even more, because he looked up to me like a big sister since we were so much closer in age than I am to his mother). She was always telling him to 'man up', but never really explained to him what that meant.

I can't speak for all women, but for me, sex ... especially during the early years (teen to mid 20's) was something I just went along with because I didn't want to be called a tease. I think a lot of girls do that too. We want to be liked, so we do things we wouldn't normally do, nor seek out to do. I never even thought about sex for myself till somewhere around 28. It was always about the guy's pleasure -- never occured to me it was something I should enjoy too. I woke up one day & thought, "why do I do this when I don't even want to?" So I stopped ... and yes, my fears of being called a tease came true. But I'm old enough now not to care, because taking control over my own body was way more important.

Women are blamed for being victimized all the time; especially if in the past they were labeled as sluts or easy ... they are blamed so much so that it takes a lot of courage for someone to report the crime. Even then, if she feels like they are blaming her, or quite possibly even convince her she was partly to blame, many times she will recant her story just to get them to stop -- they make the trauma so much worse than if she just stayed quiet. What they should do is let her talk without asking her anything ... even if it takes a few days to get the whole story out of her. Gently encourage her to keep talking & keep your own judgements to yourself. Don't let her hear you speaking about her behind her back .... don't give her the impression you are talking/whispering about her, because she already feels vulnerable & damaged. No woman likes to be gossiped about, but especially about any kind of assault. I don't care how vane she 'seems' (or seemed before it happened), I'd say most women feel as if their world has suddenly fell out from under them after their body has been violated. Unfortunately, there is no right thing anyone can say to help her in those early days after it happens. The best thing, as I said, is say nothing & encourage her to do all the talking. Encourage her to take control back & force that guy to suffer the consequences of his actions (lawfully of course).

[wolfhnd]

o7-12q these topic wander around a lot and that is often productive but the question is should males take part in a movement where men meet to discuss issues like rape?

[ManWithBeard]

People who go to church, temple or mosque on a regular basis very rarely rape anyone.

I assume that you would not have made this statement without first becoming familiar with studies show the negative correlation between religious institution attendance and rape.

Please provide some references to those studies.

(Hint: Such studies do not exist.)