Anger

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Re: Anger

Postby zetreque on July 17th, 2015, 1:06 am 

Eclogite » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:31 pm wrote:
zetreque wrote:Sometimes the only way to deal with "bullies" is to express yourself in equal terms so they don't walk all over you.
But I think you would agree that this is generally more effective when you remain in control. You reveal your passion, make your position abundantly clear, but don't "lose it".


Yes for sure. In both of my main examples I am thinking of it was physical, but exactly as you put it. You reveal your passion, make your position abundantly clear, but don't "lose it.". I think I will leave out the details for public forum even though I am proud of them. I actually became good friends with one of them soon after it came to blows initiated by the other person. The other situation never bothered me again. That was middle school. Thanks to my quick action in those cases I never had any problems throughout school thankfully. In my adult life I have had a couple encounters. In these cases it wasn't physical, but I never got angry during it, I held my ground in some silence, I spoke straight out, direct, to the point and they were brief encounters. Never had a problem afterward and they actually backed off some other coworkers too. One situation I had to raise my voice... Construction workers can be... Let's just say I have encountered people swinging hammers at other people and lived 3rd person through some crazyness.

My most recent situation is a bit more complicated than anything I have encountered in the past however. I think it's working out though.

Size and gender help, but they aren't everything, so I agree that with the right attitude and communication those things don't matter.

The internet can be tricky also. Unlike real life, people can bully while hiding behind their internet connection. It's a whole other talent to not get angry, try communication or just ignore/block them and move on with your life. By remaining calm, finding that inner peace giving perspective about the situation, and or ignoring them you are giving them nothing to feed off of.
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Re: Anger

Postby zetreque on July 17th, 2015, 1:23 am 

One important point I don't think that has been brought up yet is just how emotions tend to spread like wildfire. For example, if you raise your voice, the other person will speak louder and you will find the desire to want to talk louder. If you remain calm, the other person is more likely to remain calm.

Has anyone been in a situation where an emotion has spread to other people surrounding you? Like if you see someone cry while giving a speech (maybe at a funeral as one example), you and others will feel it and perhaps cry.

There's been some studies done on yawning being contagious. A little unrelated but not really.

Anger is contagious too.
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Re: Anger

Postby zetreque on July 17th, 2015, 1:40 am 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165178101002256

Are emotions contagious? Evoked emotions while viewing emotionally expressive faces: quality, quantity, time course and gender differences. Barbara Wild, a, , Michael Erbb, Mathias Bartelsa

We tested the predictions by Hatfield et al. (1992) (Primitive emotional contagion. Review of Personal and Social Psychology 14, 151–177) that the automatic, mostly unconscious component of this process, called ‘primitive emotional contagion’, is repeatable and fast, that stronger facial expressions of the sender evoke stronger emotions in the viewer and that women are more susceptible to emotional contagion than men.

We propose that the induction of emotional processes within a subject by the perception of emotionally expressive faces is a powerful instrument in the detection of emotional states in others and as the basis for one's own reactions.


Mom's were right.
"Treat others as you would want to be treated."

I bring up this point because it shows that anger has a very negative effect on a situation when communicating with others. We know that we don't think as clearly when angry, so we don't want the other party of the conversation to be not thinking clearly either. Even though that study was of seeing peoples faces, I think it happens online with people's attitudes as well. You will see someone insult another person which quickly turns into a back and forth insulting match. This can be extra hard online when it's easy to misinterpret another person's actual tone.
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Re: Anger

Postby vivian maxine on July 17th, 2015, 8:45 am 

Athena, reading your problem, I kept recalling a rather well-known psychologist in California. His client kept telling him all the horrible things that happened to her in childhood. His response was "Nevermind what happened. The question is what are you going to do about it?" He went on to explain that we can't change the past and we can't change others. All we can do is change our own future.

To apply that, isn't the question what are you going to do about it? What can you do that will not only save your sanity but get her on the right track? You don't have to be the one to get her there. Probably better that you don't try as you are too close to the situation. There are many organizations now that work at re-directing lives. It sounds like that's what you need here. Find one and turn the problem over to them.

Just my thought and I may be wrong but isn't it worth a try?
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Re: Anger

Postby Athena on July 17th, 2015, 10:39 am 

Braininvat » July 15th, 2015, 9:41 am wrote:When I worked as a counselor, I found much to support Eclogite's comments about our ability to decide how we will react to a situation. While we cannot control many internal emotions that we have about what goes on around us, we can choose how we will respond to those emotions. In this moment of choice lies the essential difference between aggression and assertion. To assert ourselves is to honestly state how another person or situation makes us feel, and how we think this might be resolved in the best way. In men especially, what we call anger is often the outward aggressive response to another emotion - the examples others have given are useful - fear, sadness, impotence to help another we care about, the inability to control a chaotic environment that seems threatening. The classic "counting to ten," though a bit of a cliche now, allows the prefrontal lobe areas the Neuro talked about, more time to assess a situation and formulate problem-solving strategies that are more socially effective.

A classic example of the choice is found in parenting. There might be a forking path: either yelling "SHUT UP!" or...asking a truly unruly and obnoxious child, with whom everyone is trapped in the car, if they would prefer to walk home. And being prepared, of course, to implement that transit alternative. If you all happen to be 600 miles from home, of course, that might be modified to stopping the car and having the offending party separated from the group for a while. For social animals, a period of solitude can be pretty effective. Among other things, this gives time for externally imposed adult control to be shifted to internally imposed self-control. This is one reason "helicopter" parenting is so very dangerous to the maturation process.


Darn you are right, and I know I should use "I statements" in interpersonal situations, but darn if I don't forget that in the heat of the moment. I know a gentleman who really sets me off, and you have made me think, I need to rehearse what I am going to say the next time I want to rip his head off.

I really like what you said about parenting and the how separation can shift from other controlled to self-controlled. I really want to remember this, as I work with children, and I now I see why a timeout can be effective.

I want to know about ideas involving the maturation process, so I am opening a thread for that.
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Re: Anger

Postby vivian maxine on July 17th, 2015, 11:31 am 

You all are right about controlling how we react but does that help ease the inner turmoil? I've never felt it did. The upset is still boiling inside and that is what we want changed. Yes?
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Re: Anger

Postby Paralith on July 17th, 2015, 12:56 pm 

vivian maxine » Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:31 am wrote:You all are right about controlling how we react but does that help ease the inner turmoil? I've never felt it did. The upset is still boiling inside and that is what we want changed. Yes?


The vast majority of posts in this thread are about addressing the inner turmoil, vivian. Several of us have said that it is not about the outer behavior alone.
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Re: Anger

Postby vivian maxine on July 17th, 2015, 1:08 pm 

I know. I'm just asking does it work? For some I think, from what I read, it does but I wonder for most.

Just thinking.
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Re: Anger

Postby Athena on July 17th, 2015, 3:06 pm 

zetreque » July 16th, 2015, 11:23 pm wrote:One important point I don't think that has been brought up yet is just how emotions tend to spread like wildfire. For example, if you raise your voice, the other person will speak louder and you will find the desire to want to talk louder. If you remain calm, the other person is more likely to remain calm.

Has anyone been in a situation where an emotion has spread to other people surrounding you? Like if you see someone cry while giving a speech (maybe at a funeral as one example), you and others will feel it and perhaps cry.

There's been some studies done on yawning being contagious. A little unrelated but not really.

Anger is contagious too.



I once attempted to make this point when someone repeatedly spoke to my great grandson with an angry voice. I calmly stepped into the room and said I felt angry, because I was hearing anger. I was hoping the mother and her mate would realize the harmful effect of this behavior on the child. Instead, they got defensive and the situation rapidly deteriorated. I am so glad that person is no longer a part of my great grandson's life, but Mom is now with a another person who has serious problems. Which could lead to a completely different discussion about crazy making situations children can find themselves in, but are too young to understand the problem is not them.

However, abused children may internalize the abuser and this becomes a subconscious force that can cause problems. I have also observed adult anger caused by living with an alcoholic parent.

It would be great if anger were only a passing emotion, but this not necessarily the case. Anger can be transmitted to innocent children, who are then subconsciously influenced by the anger for the rest of their lives, or at least until they win the struggle with this influence.
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Re: Anger

Postby Athena on July 17th, 2015, 3:28 pm 

vivian maxine » July 17th, 2015, 11:08 am wrote:I know. I'm just asking does it work? For some I think, from what I read, it does but I wonder for most.

Just thinking.


I would say, there is an important relationship between the anger we feel, and the amount of personal power we believe we have. If we feel weak and vulnerable, I would say we are more apt to become angry than when we have a sense of personal power. There is a medication that can help with this, and when it is coupled with steps to increase a sense of personal power, a desired shift can be made.

I think those who make little out of what physical traits have to do with this problem, do not have the necessary experience to fully understand it. We all love science here and research has conclude, children respond better to a male voice than the female voice. It is also a fact that attractive, tall men with deep voices have a distinct advantage. This is an advantage Washington had, and Napolean did not. It is the same as being a Saint Bernard dog or a little yippy dog. Some much is going on here. There is the internal biological differences, and also the social differences. Some of us have to work harder at developing skills and working our way into supportive social positions than others.

Being a student in a classroom, or the teacher/trainer at the front of the room, is a hugely different social position. Life can be more challenging for those who have never held the power position.
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Re: Anger

Postby vivian maxine on July 17th, 2015, 3:46 pm 

That's what we need - that feeling of personal power. With that, what we do outwardly would work better, wouldn't it? Thanks. You give me an idea.
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Re: Anger

Postby doogles on July 18th, 2015, 3:07 am 

Some decades ago I wrote an essay on the anger spectrum. The following excerpt on the pecking order of anger expression is a very small part of the whole (slightly edited in view of remarks in this post – for which I thank you all), that may apply to the points made by Athena and vivian maxine.

Athena wrote – “I would say, there is an important relationship between the anger we feel, and the amount of personal power we believe we have. If we feel weak and vulnerable, I would say we are more apt to become angry than when we have a sense of personal power”, and vivian maxine added – “That's what we need - that feeling of personal power. With that, what we do outwardly would work better, wouldn't it?”

In view of the following, I would like to suggest that Athena's statement be construed in the sense that there is a difference between 'feeling' anger and 'expressing' anger. I wrote “There is a pecking order element in angry reactions. It is permissible for someone higher in the pecking order to express anger to people lower on the scale, but not vice versa. For example, parents can express anger towards their children, but the opposite is not permissible; it usually results in punishment. Bosses or leaders in any field can show anger towards workers or those with lesser status in any hierarchy, but the opposite usually results in dismissal or demotion. In this sense, couldn’t we regard anger as a way of maintaining a pecking order status?"

"Maybe this is why we feel so annoyed when people blast their horns at us or gesture rudely to us in traffic. They are obviously angry at something we’ve done. I don’t know about other people, but I always feel as if people who display anger towards me are treating me as something innately lower in status. These displays used to make me angry in return. I believe it is the basic scenario for road rage.
Thus, we humans feel insulted if others display anger toward us. If we are a child, in a family situation, or at school, or a worker in an institution, and we get bawled out rightly or wrongly by someone higher in the pecking order than ourselves, we all tend to feel peeved or injured, insecure, or angry, but we just have to wear it."

"If we humbly accept the angry onslaught without reacting, then the status quo of the pecking order remains intact. We have accepted the position of a child in a ‘parent to child’ transaction such as the ones described in Thomas Harris’s book I’m OK, You’re OK. If we react, we get what Thomas Harris referred to as a ‘crossed transaction’, and problems arise. "


There is much more to anger as a topic in itself, but it’s outside of the current thrust of this thread up to now. For example, we human beings become angry when we hit ourselves on the fingers with a hammer, when we stub our toes, when anybody or anything thwarts our plans, and when anybody insults our self-image.
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